I would imagine that most people who take the time to post an image are looking for some feedback. Preferably positive feedback, but even constructive criticism is an acknowledgement of the work done.
No response from the list, would tend to indicate that the image is unworthy of feedback and indicates a lack of quality or photographic interest to the extent that it was not worth the time or effort to critique.
In the animal training world, we call this a LRS (least reinforcing stimulus) and it can be quite effective in changing behavior. (The quote below is from a column written by Amy Sutherland)
Mary
Interesting approach but I don't think that techniques used to train captive dolphins to do tricks is a good one to be applied to fellow photographers.
Now I'm no artist, just a guy who likes to take pictures. I have yet to find someone else's attempt to capture a moment to be so horrendous as to be unworthy of a response. If a shot is bad tell them why it doesn't work. This can be done in a positive manner. I think that would do more toward helping him/her improve their shots than by ignoring them.
My feeling is that a place like Dgrin has value because it provides folks with a common passion/obsession an opportunity to communicate. Where we can support each other's growth, where we can encourage each other and share information.
We can't comment on every shot or to every post but no post should be totally ignored. If you see a shot that so offends your artistic sensibilities by all means turn away. However if you see a shot you like say so, if you have the time, and even more important if you see a shot that could be improved please tell them that also, if you have the time.
Harry http://behret.smugmug.com/NANPA member How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
I don't think that techniques used to train captive dolphins to do tricks is a good one to be applied to fellow photographers
Harry - I'm not necessarily PROMOTING this technique, I was just trying to point out that a lack of response is a commentary of sorts. Not necessarily the most helpful one, but something that a person can still learn from.
If I see a photo that really jumps out at me because of it's unique perspective, great lighting or something special that rings true to me - I'm likely to feel very motivated to comment. In that case, my comments are one thing - my inspiration and willingness to take the time to comment is a secondary "vote" for the image.
If I see a photo that has one of these things that I like, but just needs a little help, them I'm likely to comment as well.
However if there is nothing "wow" about the image and it suffers from bad composition, haphazard technique, etc. I'm likely to "vote" for the image by no commentary at all. I think a few have mentioned, that sometimes it's hard to know where to start.
I'm very new to these forums and so far I've seen very fair and thoughtful responses to most pictures that people present.
Personally, I've picked up on the overall quality of work that is respected by the contributors of the group and I know that I'm not up to that level with my own photos. It will be awhile before I throw something up for review, because I already know for myself that I have many improvements to make!
I think that perhaps we first have to be selective about our own work if we are going to ask publicly for others to take the time to critique it.
I would imagine that most people who take the time to post an image are looking for some feedback. Preferably positive feedback, but even constructive criticism is an acknowledgement of the work done.
No response from the list, would tend to indicate that the image is unworthy of feedback and indicates a lack of quality or photographic interest to the extent that it was not worth the time or effort to critique.
In the animal training world, we call this a LRS (least reinforcing stimulus) and it can be quite effective in changing behavior. (The quote below is from a column written by Amy Sutherland)
Mary
________________
I hate to admit my close genetic tie to the "animal" or "dolphin" world, but that works for me.............
Responses, at least something positive, they generate more contribution from me. A lack of responses..................well, that does give me a message and .............well, gosh, I don't know how to say this, but taken to the extreme, with a shaky self concept in photography, etc. I can see that might lead to someone giving it up entirely. Being addicted to the "art", I cannot do that. But anticipating a lack of responses, unless I were to come up with something earth shaking, I would quit posting.
I think you should post, I really do.
I don't know you, I have not been very active on dGrin for a few months, so I don't know what you photograph, but I would love to see your "work". Or your fun, smile.
If you photograph "nature" at all, Harry's forum is the most "response friendly" in my experience. On that forum, in my experience, an orphan might be defined as a post with only one response: from Harry. He is the best responding moderator on here. As he says..........he has nothing else to do, hahahaha. I don't either. However, I have found that doing nothing takes up a lot of my time. I don't know how he does it, except that he appears to devote his time to his specialty, birds, and to his forum, whereas I am stretched.
And others work, at jobs, etc.
But I would love to see your work. Please PM me if you post, gosh, join Dailies on Smugmug, that is where I have been hanging lately.
I do think that it is a problem anywhere that has been established at all, to break into the "in" group. Doing that takes work. Lots of "networking" other than just posting. By networking, I mean responding. I try, or tried, to respond to those who responded to me. I did it as a courtesy and as a manipulative tactic, etc.
So, one's photography can be excellent, but unless it is of something terribly unusual, I think it takes awhile.
No one's photography is so bad as to not be "post worthy". IMO. It is an art form. IMO. As such, it is very subjective, IMO. I tend to be quite liberal in that belief whereas others can draw charts, list rules, etc. Both leanings, the liberal and the "rule" based, they have their merits.
And I have gone on long enough.
I do agree with you on what I have called the "m and m" training method. I learned it with my animal children and potty training. It works for me. And I would love to see your work, as I am sure others would, too.
There is very good work in this group, that can feel intimidating. But others good work does not make ones own work lesser. That is my strong opinion.
I, too, do not post responses on everyone's stuff. In fact, I got to the point where I was posting few responses. Then I was only posting maybe one response a day. That is too little networking for me, with my limited photo ability, to continue to generate responses from others. It has nothing to do with my photography, IMO. It has to do with the fact that I have not "given enough" to "get enough" from others. Plus, it is well known that I am very sensitive to criticism, so it can be someone's least favorite thing: to respond to me.
However..............i usually get at least one response........from Harry, and sometimes from some others.
I love your work and your enthusiasm, and I'd love to join you for lunch when I'm next passing your way (which will be the first time). But the feeling's mutual - I like you to be my guest for lunch when you are next in these parts, then we'll go shoot some images!
Webster,
My wife and myself we have been in New Zealand but - I think - we will not go there again.
Why ? Because it is very far away and costy.
I do not know which year but we have been in the Fiji Islands also.
Ever come to Lisboa let me know.
W' ll have lunch together in Setubal: grilled fish doesn't matter if it is Spring, Automn, Summer or Winter.
Saúde. thumb
Interesting approach but I don't think that techniques used to train captive dolphins to do tricks is a good one to be applied to fellow photographers. ...
That's because Photogs aren't as smart as Dolphins. (most Dolphins anyway ... I read that the Miami Dolphins are pretty low on the learning curve.)
Personally, I find it hard to respond to many photos that are just, absolutely and totally bad.
My Mama told me if you can't say anything nice ... then don't say anything at all.
Seriously, if it was in a group setting or mano-y-mano ... then it would be different. The other side would know that you are just being helpful ... but on the net ... people tend to think that they are being attacked ... that one is raising their self esteem by ripping into others.
Additionally, many don't want constructive criticism ... they just want an atta-boy pat on the back. And others of that ilk will attack you if you post a constructive critique that has more than just atta-boy.
And finally, there are some that need so much help, who are just so neophyte that it is a wonder that they are capable of getting a photo of anything other than their eye (holding the camera backwards). So where do you start? ? ? ? Why waste the time when any remark will just fly over their head.
Personally, I find it hard to respond to many photos that are just, absolutely and totally bad.
My Mama told me if you can't say anything nice ... then don't say anything at all.
Seriously, if it was in a group setting or mano-y-mano ... then it would be different. The other side would know that you are just being helpful ... but on the net ... people tend to think that they are being attacked ... that one is raising their self esteem by ripping into others.
Additionally, many don't want constructive criticism ... they just want an atta-boy pat on the back. And others of that ilk will attack you if you post a constructive critique that has more than just atta-boy.
And finally, there are some that need so much help, who are just so neophyte that it is a wonder that they are capable of getting a photo of anything other than their eye (holding the camera backwards). So where do you start? ? ? ? Why waste the time when any remark will just fly over their head.
______________________________________
And what do you all say when introduced to a generic baby?
I wish you all the best, but I adamently do not agree with some of the comments...........and it would make me very hesitant to post.
I am not a saint, even at my level (which I am feeling lower about all the time), but I have seen photos posted where I think, "You have got to be kidding". Sometimes, at my best, I came up with a response. One can always come up with something. My responses were supportive, they usually are, though I made one this morning, my only one this AM that could be strongly disagreed with, but he is like a "best photog ever" person. Many times I have passed photos that just left my mouth open where my thought was "now I know the reason people say "snapshot" in a derogatory manner. But I am not proud of that. I know of, know, respect, some photographers on this list who I remember when they started, their posts were questionable to say the least. They are now, IMO, at the level of most of the best. Of course, there are the very, very elite.........most of us are just trying our best. But I have seen people go from poor to "best" with the support and help of others, along with their own passions.
I would suggest another whatchamacallit, forum, list, thread, whatever, for the "good photographers", or a list where noobs can feel comfortable posting and not bother others.
Personally, I find it hard to respond to many photos that are just, absolutely and totally bad.
My Mama told me if you can't say anything nice ... then don't say anything at all.
Seriously, if it was in a group setting or mano-y-mano ... then it would be different. The other side would know that you are just being helpful ... but on the net ... people tend to think that they are being attacked ... that one is raising their self esteem by ripping into others.
Additionally, many don't want constructive criticism ... they just want an atta-boy pat on the back. And others of that ilk will attack you if you post a constructive critique that has more than just atta-boy.
And finally, there are some that need so much help, who are just so neophyte that it is a wonder that they are capable of getting a photo of anything other than their eye (holding the camera backwards). So where do you start? ? ? ? Why waste the time when any remark will just fly over their head.
Its really all not that hard. First I remember all the terrible shots I posted when I was starting out. I then I recall the responses I received saying that's Ok but if you did this and this and this it would be a lot better.
Hopefully everybody who posts a pic understands that it becomes fair game. If somebody posts a really terrible shot (and who hasn't?) just pick one area that could be improved and tell 'em how to do it.
Lastly I am disturbed by some of the comments I've seen where some folks seem to be looking down at newcomes who haven't attained some exalted photographic level and thereby don't merit our attention. Jeez we all were noobs at some point. I know that if I hadn't received the help I did from others I never would have reached my current high level of mediocrity.
Harry http://behret.smugmug.com/NANPA member How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
Lastly I am distrubed by some of the comments I've seen where some folks seem to be looking down at newcomes who haven't attained some exalted photographic level and thereby don't merit our attention. Jeez we all were noobs at some point. I know that if I hadn't received the help I did from others I never would have reached my current high level of mediocrity.
... Lastly I am distrubed by some of the comments I've seen where some folks seem to be looking down at newcomes who haven't attained some exalted photographic level and thereby don't merit our attention. Jeez we all were noobs at some point. I know that if I hadn't received the help I did from others I never would have reached my current high level of mediocrity.
In a perfect world, Harry ... this wouldn't be a problem ... and it isn't about people not meriting one's attention ... this is my bone of contention:
After a few/many "... I don't care what you think, I and my friends like it ..." retorts ... one begins to say to themselves "Why waste my time."
This attitude seems more prevalent amongst the beginners than those who have attained an "exalted photographic level" (although it is not uncommon there as well).
In a perfect world, Harry ... this wouldn't be a problem ... and it isn't about people not meriting one's attention ... this is my bone of contention:
After a few/many "... I don't care what you think, I and my friends like it ..." retorts ... one begins to say to themselves "Why waste my time."
This attitude seems more prevalent amongst the beginners than those who have attained an "exalted photographic level" (although it is not uncommon there as well).
I have never received one of those "I don't care what you think my friends like it" responses. If someone copes that attitude I would stop replying to their posts until they dropped it. However I wouldn't project that individual's attitude onto others.
Harry http://behret.smugmug.com/NANPA member How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
I agree with Harry. There's no room for negative, elitist or pejorative comments on dgrin. And to all who are negative, elitist or pejorative, give a go at seeing the glass half full. Be the change you want to see in the world (Ghandi).
Geeezzz! I haven't been on the forum as much lately. Decided I needed to get out and shoot more and actually put to use some of the valuable knowledge I have so generously been endowed with by all of the wonderful photogs on Dgrin!! I had not realized this forum was slacking off :yikes and not paying attention to all the new folks struggling to gain an "identity" here on Dgrin. I immediately felt guilty :uhoh and decided to check out my "public profile" and view my contributions to the efforts. Whew! I was quite relieved that my daily contributions were not down to zero as I feared, but that I was still managing an average of 7.52 posts per day. Of course, that's a little lower than Harry's 11.88, but still impressive.
I know at times it seems that Harry is "everywhere". I attempt to go to each forum and "sort by post" and check out the strays that have had no posts whatsoever. I do attempt to make comments of some kind, generally encouraging or constructive in nature, unless the shot is so bad I am at a total loss for words! Many times Harry has been there before me. So not only do these "regulars" (like Harry and many others) post heavily in their own forums, but are known to be sharing their knowledge and advice on other forums as well. I know I am not alone in saying that I view many wonderful photos daily and don't begin to comment on them all. It is way too time-consuming and I spend many, many hours on this photography stuff! Plus, I am NOT retired. I imagine that others also are seeing your work and not commenting...but not necessarily because your work (or any other new member) does not merit attention. A few select people cannot by themselves maintain the quality of this forum that makes it so special. Everyone needs to be involved and contribute. That means posting comments on others work and not just posting comments on your own threads. You have to give more than you get, like it or not, to keep the momentum.
By your standards I am a recent member as well. Funny....I feel like an old regular myself. Perhaps it is because I became fully involved in the community. I joined 7 weeks after you did and I have posted 1,171 posts and 28 threads. I reviewed your profile to see if I have viewed your work. I am glad to say that I have seen your work (which I like a lot, by the way!) and even commented a few times. I never saw anything you posted that I didn't like, and I have seen 99 percent of what you posted....but I did not always comment. Sometimes, someone else has taken the "words out of my mouth" and I feel like it is being redundant to repeat the same things. So I enjoy your work and move on to the next post. I see that in your time here you have posted 219 posts (1.05 per day) and 29 threads.....which included 86 posts in your own threads. That leaves your contribution at less than 1 post per day. I only want to point out (again) that you have to give to get......a few can't do it all by themselves....and a community is a community when everyone contributes. I know approximately a month or so ago you were very estatic about the wonderful quality of this forum. You even posted a thread about it: http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=36890
(Sorry.....I still haven't learned how to link a thread the 'cooool' way, but I know if I really cared to do so, I could just "ask" and someone would generously take their time to spell it out to me!)
Since you and I have joined there seems to have been a tremendous "growth" and lots of new members clamoring for their share of attention. I think we can't all just sit back and let the same old people be the ones to run to the rescue. I hope you don't feel I am chastising you, we all would love attention to our efforts. I think you are, perhaps, expecting too much too soon before you have really had a chance to become a part of the process. I have come to realize that my "work" is not of the type that is going to merit much adoration. But I am not giving up, or placing blame anywhere but where I think it belongs....on the quality of my work. I am a beginner, by all standards, and I know it is going to take a long time to become, as Harry would say "mediocre". I would so love to be mediocre!!! So currently I am trying some different things, but I still know I need to contribute if I expect future recognition. Also, there is a certain "commaraderie" that is formed by people who shoot the same subjects, such as people who shoot birds or motocross. I haven't found my "niche" photographically, so it becomes more difficult to bond with others. I notice your shots lean towards "field and stream" and "cool shots". I believe those galleries probably have fewer "regulars" so it probably makes it more difficult for you to get comments. If these are your leanings, then perhaps you might post regularly on all shots you see there and become an "established" regular on those forums. Just a thought. BTW...I love your gallery (even tho' it's not on SmugMug). Your "scarf" photo was one of the first I think you posted, is one of the photos that really caught my eye at the time and has made me check out your work since then. Very nice (if I didn't tell you before!).
Sorry I got so "wordy" here..........but I'm on vacation this week and (drat!) it's too $!#$ hot to go out shooting!!!! I'm sure the weather will cool off when I go back to work next Monday...:D
I could not agree with you more (except maybe I think your own work is better than you do).
One thing to point out is that I make it a point, if I see it, to respond to your/Saurora's work, and I have for a long time, because of her many responses she has made to me and others.
She is soooo good at doing that. Well, I just want to like her, like her stuff, etc.
I am a fairly selfish person. I did not realize all the thought that she had put into what a community is, etc. But I totally agree. It does not give me more time, nor does it mean that I am suddenly going to become very active..........I should be shooting right now, and I am not, to say the least of commenting on you all. The work i mean.
But what she says is so dead on true! Completely, IMO!
Lastly I am disturbed by some of the comments I've seen where some folks seem to be looking down at newcomes who haven't attained some exalted photographic level and thereby don't merit our attention. Jeez we all were noobs at some point. I know that if I hadn't received the help I did from others I never would have reached my current high level of mediocrity.
I share that sentiment.
However, I usually won't offer more than an "attaboy" unless C&C are specifically requested.
However, I usually won't offer more than an "attaboy" unless C&C are specifically requested.
Well, we all know, Sid, that I am with you on that.
Actually, with all of the newcomers, perhaps you don't know. But basically I post kind of like a "gallery opening". Or that is how it feels to me. I am excited and want to share.
I am not posting like I am at a class asking for critiques. Harry did point out that people post for different reasons. If I want help I will specifically ask for it. Other than that I just hope people enjoy the imaginary wine and cheese and praise my photography, smile.
No, there are people and ways I can be C&C, but it needs to come with praise of some sort. I think, my sincere belief is that that is the polite thing to do when coming to someone's house. And that is how I feel when I post.
So, I have gotten a reputation of not wanting any more than "atta"boys, as though that is a dirty word. I do not see it like that. I see it that I want to be treated with the same respect as I would treat others.
Now, some post in order to get knowledge. They say they do. Every post is a new opportunity to learn. I have never quite understood that, which is my loss I guess, but I know that is what people say. I have never said that.
Though I think I have learned an aweful lot. I listen to what is said to others, what I read on threads. There are people who do critique my work without raising too many hackles in me. Even if I grumble, I usually take note and change things a bit. At least to see. An example would be a horse shot i did recently where someone suggested that deeper shadows would help. It is still around here w/o the deeper shadows, but I sent it to Kodak, that and two other photos, first time in 6 months or so, and I did deepen the shadows.
Actually, at the time I was told to deepen the shadows, I didn't quite know how or what was meant, but someone else was told the same thing and was told how, so I took advantage of that knowledge.
An example of another type of criticism that does not go down as well with me is something like the "rules" of composition, such as the rule of thirds. I am very aware of that rule. I sometimes choose to break it. I have been doing photography as long as some of you have been alive. I know that rule is not an absolute. NOw if I am in a discussion type group, I might take better to being told that I should adhere to the rule of thirds in a certain case. But these are in and out remarks where I feel talked down to.
So, yeah, it is much safer with me to do as Sid does to everyone.
And one can comment on anyone's photo by saying, "Now that is a photograph!!!" "Where did you take it", or something like that in the second sentence. One does not have to critique even the worst photo ever to make a comment. ONe does not go into someone's house and say, Oh my gosh, don't you know not to................put clashing colors together, whatever.
Ok, that is more than you want to know.
But it has grinded a bit at me that so much talk has gone on about us noobs, mediocres, whatevers..........not liking criticism, or not knowing how to use it, or how useless it is. Most criticism has helped me, even the criticism I have not liked. Some has not. And I am not fond of it, unless I ask specifically knowing I have a problem. But the attitude that it is going over my "stupid" head is annoying.
I don't know what else to say, am sure I said too much already. Someone else's turn.
In a perfect world, Harry ... this wouldn't be a problem ... and it isn't about people not meriting one's attention ... this is my bone of contention:
__________________
After a few/many "... I don't care what you think, I and my friends like it ..." retorts ... one begins to say to themselves "Why waste my time."
This attitude seems more prevalent amongst the beginners than those who have attained an "exalted photographic level" (although it is not uncommon there as well).__________________
I have been here for awhile and just like all the comments in this thread -folks here care from that bad boy nik to david but do you have any examples of this that you state is common the only ones i remember are young kids and one meen farts like me
With the number of members getting close to 10K (have you seen DavidTO's contest?;-) it pretty hard to comment on everyone's pictures.
As the time goes by and I develop stronger online (or even IRL) relationship with the poster, I feel it easier to post a constructive c&c without being afraid on hurting person's feelings
"Well known forum members" are often the most experienced and skilled ones, both in their own photography and, this is extremely important, in C&C technique. It's kinda natural that many of them see similar pros and cons in the same picture
Last but not least. I personally try not to comment on photos I do not like, with the exceptions of the Whipping Post and the people I know well enough (see #2).
Statistically, lot of newcomers are also new to photography in general, and, as such, their images are often, well, very weak to say the least. While I don't mind such postings (we all gotta learn, right?), saying what I really think about such a weak photo may not necessarily help (if you don't know what I mean, try to post a weak picture on Canon forum at dpreview). Again, that's why we have the WP, which is, thank goodness, limited to one post per week per person, and also supposed to hold only the best shots the person have, rather than "hey i just got my new digicam, took, like, a pikcha of my 'puter, like, hahahaha, lemme know waddaythink, lol".
All in all, I think it's in a nature of things..:): Not necessarily a bad thing, either...
Short for newbie:
Merriam-Webster: [SIZE=-1]NEWCOMER[/SIZE]; especially: a newcomer to cyberspace.
My addition: Usually used as a reference for a person that does not know better (in whatever sense).
One and the same person can be a complete pro in one area and a total n00b in another.
Bottom line: nothing to be ashamed of, it only means that a person have (a long way) to learn. We're all students of life. We're all n00bs in one sense or another.
Just MHO, of course :
Hey, I don't really want to be the one to bring up semantics, but I just thought I'd clarify why someone said that "n00b" belongs on a Counterstrike forum. Regardless of what M-W says on the subject, n00b (noob) and newbie (newb, newby) are not the same thing to many people (especially those who grew up mostly with the web just being there). While a newbie is someone who is a newcomer and is polite and willing to learn, a n00b is a cocky, obnoxious, annoying person who doesn't particularly have to be a newcomer. n00b has a negative connotation and is generally considered to be an insult, whereas newbie is accepted as a person new to something.
This is what I understand it to be and I know I'm not the only one who sees it this way.
If you search for the usage of this word "n00b" in *this* forum, you'll find out that it does not carry any derogatory, insulting or in any way negative side meaning.
By the way, the term "headshot" here and in CS also means quite different things, too
If you search for the usage of this word "n00b" in *this* forum, you'll find out that it does not carry any derogatory, insulting or in any way negative side meaning.
By the way, the term "headshot" here and in CS also means quite different things, too
Let see .. and shooting, burning in, dodging, converting et cetera
i always look for empty threads and reply to them when i dont reply it means image is too larg my dailup connection wont easily download imags so i am ristricted otherwise i love to see and comment in all catagories of the forum
Thine is the beauty of light; mine is the song of fire. Thy beauty exalts the heart; my song inspires the soul. Allama Iqbal
OMG been away for a week and just found out this has become a six page thread..lol
Have to read it all again and try to write a intelligent looking reply...harder then it sounds when english isn't exactly my first language.. oh well..
Comments
Interesting approach but I don't think that techniques used to train captive dolphins to do tricks is a good one to be applied to fellow photographers.
Now I'm no artist, just a guy who likes to take pictures. I have yet to find someone else's attempt to capture a moment to be so horrendous as to be unworthy of a response. If a shot is bad tell them why it doesn't work. This can be done in a positive manner. I think that would do more toward helping him/her improve their shots than by ignoring them.
My feeling is that a place like Dgrin has value because it provides folks with a common passion/obsession an opportunity to communicate. Where we can support each other's growth, where we can encourage each other and share information.
We can't comment on every shot or to every post but no post should be totally ignored. If you see a shot that so offends your artistic sensibilities by all means turn away. However if you see a shot you like say so, if you have the time, and even more important if you see a shot that could be improved please tell them that also, if you have the time.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
If I see a photo that really jumps out at me because of it's unique perspective, great lighting or something special that rings true to me - I'm likely to feel very motivated to comment. In that case, my comments are one thing - my inspiration and willingness to take the time to comment is a secondary "vote" for the image.
If I see a photo that has one of these things that I like, but just needs a little help, them I'm likely to comment as well.
However if there is nothing "wow" about the image and it suffers from bad composition, haphazard technique, etc. I'm likely to "vote" for the image by no commentary at all. I think a few have mentioned, that sometimes it's hard to know where to start.
I'm very new to these forums and so far I've seen very fair and thoughtful responses to most pictures that people present.
Personally, I've picked up on the overall quality of work that is respected by the contributors of the group and I know that I'm not up to that level with my own photos. It will be awhile before I throw something up for review, because I already know for myself that I have many improvements to make!
I think that perhaps we first have to be selective about our own work if we are going to ask publicly for others to take the time to critique it.
Mary
________________
I hate to admit my close genetic tie to the "animal" or "dolphin" world, but that works for me.............
Responses, at least something positive, they generate more contribution from me. A lack of responses..................well, that does give me a message and .............well, gosh, I don't know how to say this, but taken to the extreme, with a shaky self concept in photography, etc. I can see that might lead to someone giving it up entirely. Being addicted to the "art", I cannot do that. But anticipating a lack of responses, unless I were to come up with something earth shaking, I would quit posting.
I think you should post, I really do.
I don't know you, I have not been very active on dGrin for a few months, so I don't know what you photograph, but I would love to see your "work". Or your fun, smile.
If you photograph "nature" at all, Harry's forum is the most "response friendly" in my experience. On that forum, in my experience, an orphan might be defined as a post with only one response: from Harry. He is the best responding moderator on here. As he says..........he has nothing else to do, hahahaha. I don't either. However, I have found that doing nothing takes up a lot of my time. I don't know how he does it, except that he appears to devote his time to his specialty, birds, and to his forum, whereas I am stretched.
And others work, at jobs, etc.
But I would love to see your work. Please PM me if you post, gosh, join Dailies on Smugmug, that is where I have been hanging lately.
I do think that it is a problem anywhere that has been established at all, to break into the "in" group. Doing that takes work. Lots of "networking" other than just posting. By networking, I mean responding. I try, or tried, to respond to those who responded to me. I did it as a courtesy and as a manipulative tactic, etc.
So, one's photography can be excellent, but unless it is of something terribly unusual, I think it takes awhile.
No one's photography is so bad as to not be "post worthy". IMO. It is an art form. IMO. As such, it is very subjective, IMO. I tend to be quite liberal in that belief whereas others can draw charts, list rules, etc. Both leanings, the liberal and the "rule" based, they have their merits.
And I have gone on long enough.
I do agree with you on what I have called the "m and m" training method. I learned it with my animal children and potty training. It works for me. And I would love to see your work, as I am sure others would, too.
There is very good work in this group, that can feel intimidating. But others good work does not make ones own work lesser. That is my strong opinion.
I, too, do not post responses on everyone's stuff. In fact, I got to the point where I was posting few responses. Then I was only posting maybe one response a day. That is too little networking for me, with my limited photo ability, to continue to generate responses from others. It has nothing to do with my photography, IMO. It has to do with the fact that I have not "given enough" to "get enough" from others. Plus, it is well known that I am very sensitive to criticism, so it can be someone's least favorite thing: to respond to me.
However..............i usually get at least one response........from Harry, and sometimes from some others.
Have a good day shooting,
consider Dailies, too,
ginger
Webster,
My wife and myself we have been in New Zealand but - I think - we will not go there again.
Why ? Because it is very far away and costy.
I do not know which year but we have been in the Fiji Islands also.
Ever come to Lisboa let me know.
W' ll have lunch together in Setubal: grilled fish doesn't matter if it is Spring, Automn, Summer or Winter.
Saúde.
That's because Photogs aren't as smart as Dolphins. (most Dolphins anyway ... I read that the Miami Dolphins are pretty low on the learning curve.)
Unsharp at any Speed
My Mama told me if you can't say anything nice ... then don't say anything at all.
Seriously, if it was in a group setting or mano-y-mano ... then it would be different. The other side would know that you are just being helpful ... but on the net ... people tend to think that they are being attacked ... that one is raising their self esteem by ripping into others.
Additionally, many don't want constructive criticism ... they just want an atta-boy pat on the back. And others of that ilk will attack you if you post a constructive critique that has more than just atta-boy.
And finally, there are some that need so much help, who are just so neophyte that it is a wonder that they are capable of getting a photo of anything other than their eye (holding the camera backwards). So where do you start? ? ? ? Why waste the time when any remark will just fly over their head.
Unsharp at any Speed
And what do you all say when introduced to a generic baby?
I wish you all the best, but I adamently do not agree with some of the comments...........and it would make me very hesitant to post.
I am not a saint, even at my level (which I am feeling lower about all the time), but I have seen photos posted where I think, "You have got to be kidding". Sometimes, at my best, I came up with a response. One can always come up with something. My responses were supportive, they usually are, though I made one this morning, my only one this AM that could be strongly disagreed with, but he is like a "best photog ever" person. Many times I have passed photos that just left my mouth open where my thought was "now I know the reason people say "snapshot" in a derogatory manner. But I am not proud of that. I know of, know, respect, some photographers on this list who I remember when they started, their posts were questionable to say the least. They are now, IMO, at the level of most of the best. Of course, there are the very, very elite.........most of us are just trying our best. But I have seen people go from poor to "best" with the support and help of others, along with their own passions.
I would suggest another whatchamacallit, forum, list, thread, whatever, for the "good photographers", or a list where noobs can feel comfortable posting and not bother others.
ginger
Its really all not that hard. First I remember all the terrible shots I posted when I was starting out. I then I recall the responses I received saying that's Ok but if you did this and this and this it would be a lot better.
Hopefully everybody who posts a pic understands that it becomes fair game. If somebody posts a really terrible shot (and who hasn't?) just pick one area that could be improved and tell 'em how to do it.
Lastly I am disturbed by some of the comments I've seen where some folks seem to be looking down at newcomes who haven't attained some exalted photographic level and thereby don't merit our attention. Jeez we all were noobs at some point. I know that if I hadn't received the help I did from others I never would have reached my current high level of mediocrity.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
In a perfect world, Harry ... this wouldn't be a problem ... and it isn't about people not meriting one's attention ... this is my bone of contention:
After a few/many "... I don't care what you think, I and my friends like it ..." retorts ... one begins to say to themselves "Why waste my time."
This attitude seems more prevalent amongst the beginners than those who have attained an "exalted photographic level" (although it is not uncommon there as well).
Unsharp at any Speed
I have never received one of those "I don't care what you think my friends like it" responses. If someone copes that attitude I would stop replying to their posts until they dropped it. However I wouldn't project that individual's attitude onto others.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
I know at times it seems that Harry is "everywhere". I attempt to go to each forum and "sort by post" and check out the strays that have had no posts whatsoever. I do attempt to make comments of some kind, generally encouraging or constructive in nature, unless the shot is so bad I am at a total loss for words! Many times Harry has been there before me. So not only do these "regulars" (like Harry and many others) post heavily in their own forums, but are known to be sharing their knowledge and advice on other forums as well. I know I am not alone in saying that I view many wonderful photos daily and don't begin to comment on them all. It is way too time-consuming and I spend many, many hours on this photography stuff! Plus, I am NOT retired. I imagine that others also are seeing your work and not commenting...but not necessarily because your work (or any other new member) does not merit attention. A few select people cannot by themselves maintain the quality of this forum that makes it so special. Everyone needs to be involved and contribute. That means posting comments on others work and not just posting comments on your own threads. You have to give more than you get, like it or not, to keep the momentum.
By your standards I am a recent member as well. Funny....I feel like an old regular myself. Perhaps it is because I became fully involved in the community. I joined 7 weeks after you did and I have posted 1,171 posts and 28 threads. I reviewed your profile to see if I have viewed your work. I am glad to say that I have seen your work (which I like a lot, by the way!) and even commented a few times. I never saw anything you posted that I didn't like, and I have seen 99 percent of what you posted....but I did not always comment. Sometimes, someone else has taken the "words out of my mouth" and I feel like it is being redundant to repeat the same things. So I enjoy your work and move on to the next post. I see that in your time here you have posted 219 posts (1.05 per day) and 29 threads.....which included 86 posts in your own threads. That leaves your contribution at less than 1 post per day. I only want to point out (again) that you have to give to get......a few can't do it all by themselves....and a community is a community when everyone contributes. I know approximately a month or so ago you were very estatic about the wonderful quality of this forum. You even posted a thread about it:
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=36890
(Sorry.....I still haven't learned how to link a thread the 'cooool' way, but I know if I really cared to do so, I could just "ask" and someone would generously take their time to spell it out to me!)
Since you and I have joined there seems to have been a tremendous "growth" and lots of new members clamoring for their share of attention. I think we can't all just sit back and let the same old people be the ones to run to the rescue. I hope you don't feel I am chastising you, we all would love attention to our efforts. I think you are, perhaps, expecting too much too soon before you have really had a chance to become a part of the process. I have come to realize that my "work" is not of the type that is going to merit much adoration. But I am not giving up, or placing blame anywhere but where I think it belongs....on the quality of my work. I am a beginner, by all standards, and I know it is going to take a long time to become, as Harry would say "mediocre". I would so love to be mediocre!!! So currently I am trying some different things, but I still know I need to contribute if I expect future recognition. Also, there is a certain "commaraderie" that is formed by people who shoot the same subjects, such as people who shoot birds or motocross. I haven't found my "niche" photographically, so it becomes more difficult to bond with others. I notice your shots lean towards "field and stream" and "cool shots". I believe those galleries probably have fewer "regulars" so it probably makes it more difficult for you to get comments. If these are your leanings, then perhaps you might post regularly on all shots you see there and become an "established" regular on those forums. Just a thought. BTW...I love your gallery (even tho' it's not on SmugMug). Your "scarf" photo was one of the first I think you posted, is one of the photos that really caught my eye at the time and has made me check out your work since then. Very nice (if I didn't tell you before!).
Sorry I got so "wordy" here..........but I'm on vacation this week and (drat!) it's too $!#$ hot to go out shooting!!!! I'm sure the weather will cool off when I go back to work next Monday...:D
Who? Are you referring to Mohandas Karamchand (Mahatma) Gandhi?
Yep.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
I could not agree with you more (except maybe I think your own work is better than you do).
One thing to point out is that I make it a point, if I see it, to respond to your/Saurora's work, and I have for a long time, because of her many responses she has made to me and others.
She is soooo good at doing that. Well, I just want to like her, like her stuff, etc.
I am a fairly selfish person. I did not realize all the thought that she had put into what a community is, etc. But I totally agree. It does not give me more time, nor does it mean that I am suddenly going to become very active..........I should be shooting right now, and I am not, to say the least of commenting on you all. The work i mean.
But what she says is so dead on true! Completely, IMO!
ginger
However, I usually won't offer more than an "attaboy" unless C&C are specifically requested.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
Well, we all know, Sid, that I am with you on that.
Actually, with all of the newcomers, perhaps you don't know. But basically I post kind of like a "gallery opening". Or that is how it feels to me. I am excited and want to share.
I am not posting like I am at a class asking for critiques. Harry did point out that people post for different reasons. If I want help I will specifically ask for it. Other than that I just hope people enjoy the imaginary wine and cheese and praise my photography, smile.
No, there are people and ways I can be C&C, but it needs to come with praise of some sort. I think, my sincere belief is that that is the polite thing to do when coming to someone's house. And that is how I feel when I post.
So, I have gotten a reputation of not wanting any more than "atta"boys, as though that is a dirty word. I do not see it like that. I see it that I want to be treated with the same respect as I would treat others.
Now, some post in order to get knowledge. They say they do. Every post is a new opportunity to learn. I have never quite understood that, which is my loss I guess, but I know that is what people say. I have never said that.
Though I think I have learned an aweful lot. I listen to what is said to others, what I read on threads. There are people who do critique my work without raising too many hackles in me. Even if I grumble, I usually take note and change things a bit. At least to see. An example would be a horse shot i did recently where someone suggested that deeper shadows would help. It is still around here w/o the deeper shadows, but I sent it to Kodak, that and two other photos, first time in 6 months or so, and I did deepen the shadows.
Actually, at the time I was told to deepen the shadows, I didn't quite know how or what was meant, but someone else was told the same thing and was told how, so I took advantage of that knowledge.
An example of another type of criticism that does not go down as well with me is something like the "rules" of composition, such as the rule of thirds. I am very aware of that rule. I sometimes choose to break it. I have been doing photography as long as some of you have been alive. I know that rule is not an absolute. NOw if I am in a discussion type group, I might take better to being told that I should adhere to the rule of thirds in a certain case. But these are in and out remarks where I feel talked down to.
So, yeah, it is much safer with me to do as Sid does to everyone.
And one can comment on anyone's photo by saying, "Now that is a photograph!!!" "Where did you take it", or something like that in the second sentence. One does not have to critique even the worst photo ever to make a comment. ONe does not go into someone's house and say, Oh my gosh, don't you know not to................put clashing colors together, whatever.
Ok, that is more than you want to know.
But it has grinded a bit at me that so much talk has gone on about us noobs, mediocres, whatevers..........not liking criticism, or not knowing how to use it, or how useless it is. Most criticism has helped me, even the criticism I have not liked. Some has not. And I am not fond of it, unless I ask specifically knowing I have a problem. But the attitude that it is going over my "stupid" head is annoying.
I don't know what else to say, am sure I said too much already. Someone else's turn.
ginger
KEY ingredient to a successful forum! One starts, then another picks up. And so on!
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
“PHOTOGRAPHY IS THE ‘JAZZ’ FOR THE EYES…”
http://jwear.smugmug.com/
Reminds me of that classic "Treasure of Sierra Madre" line,
"You want comments, we don't need no stinkin comments, we got these stinkin CAMERAS!!"
There's always some on top, some on the bottom, and a whole buch in the middle. Just like real life !!
I have met some special folk here online, I've met several great (really
My own Photography has bee recharged.
What more could I ask.
My Galleries
Flicker
G+
Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
This is what I understand it to be and I know I'm not the only one who sees it this way.
FPS =/= Photography...
If you search for the usage of this word "n00b" in *this* forum, you'll find out that it does not carry any derogatory, insulting or in any way negative side meaning.
By the way, the term "headshot" here and in CS also means quite different things, too
Let see .. and shooting, burning in, dodging, converting et cetera
Unsharp at any Speed
My Gallery
Have to read it all again and try to write a intelligent looking reply...harder then it sounds when english isn't exactly my first language..
Not to worry, my friend, it's not a native tongue for many of us here, yet we all survive somehow