How would you respond to this?

Lord Vetinari

Just got this email and wondered how would others react?
I should add I am an amateur/hobbyist photographer but have earned some money from my pics already.

"Dear sir,

I have been asked by an US publisher to write a book on macro photography, an offer which I have accepted. You have been a source of inspiration for me for a long time, and I was wondering if you would be interested in supplying some of the photos for the book.

I am afraid that there is a very limited budget available, but we would obviously be able to offer you photo credit. In addition - if you would like to supply a few photos - I wouldn't mind adding a photographer's profile to the book.

Is this something you could be interested in?"

Brian V.

Khaos

If you were a source of inspiration, why wouldn't he address the email directly to you rather than "Sir?"

I wouldn't be interested. If you are just looking for exposure, how much do you think you'll get with a book on photography that doesn't have a decent budget for photograph licensing?

askme2flashu

I delete all SPAM. No questions asked. Hate SPAM.

gus

Me ? I would tell 'em to get lost quick...well..maybe i would use a diff term but this is a public forum.

The hide of people to ask for your work for free (photo credit) & then proceed to make money from the book.

cmason

gus wrote:

Me ? I would tell 'em to get lost quick...well..maybe i would use a diff term but this is a public forum.

The hide of people to ask for your work for free (photo credit) & then proceed to make money from the book.

Send him your terms. Ask for $$ first, since 'if you dont ask, you won't get". The worst that can happen is you dont get it published, leaving you in the same place if you had ignored it.

Of course, I would do a bit of research first: check the usual on google, see if the IP/domain fits (so isnt from Crotia or something), and ask for references.

Andy

Lord Vetinari wrote:

Just got this email and wondered how would others react?
I should add I am an amateur/hobbyist photographer but have earned some money from my pics already.

"Dear sir,

I have been asked by an US publisher to write a book on macro photography, an offer which I have accepted. You have been a source of inspiration for me for a long time, and I was wondering if you would be interested in supplying some of the photos for the book.

I am afraid that there is a very limited budget available, but we would obviously be able to offer you photo credit. In addition - if you would like to supply a few photos - I wouldn't mind adding a photographer's profile to the book.

Is this something you could be interested in?"

Brian V.

RED FLAGS!

If he's writing a book on macro photography, he should have his own body of work, eh? Is he writing this book for free? Will the book be on Amazon for $0? I doubt it.

Don't give away anything.

dragon300zx

Me? I would respond entirely in a language this person would most likely not understand.

wxwax

Khaos wrote:

If you were a source of inspiration, why wouldn't he address the email directly to you rather than "Sir?"

Lord Vetinari

Thanks for the advice everyone- seems like a universal don't touch it with a barge poll response
Brian V.

Pezpix

I gotta be honest, Lord V, your macro work could make a book all by itself! Why even contemplate this spammer and give him some of your wonderful work.

Maybe you should send him back an email asking for his work for YOUR book

Lord Vetinari

Thanks Pezpix
Just an update- I sent back a fairly polite reply saying i wasn't interested in a book I know nothing about and without the possibility of payment and got this in return.

"Nothing has been signed yet, but if everything goes to plan, the book goes on sale in spring 2007. If your photos get used, I would obviously give you all due credit, and I'll even make sure you'd get a couple of copies of the book sent to you. As for payment, I have an extremely limited budget, and I imagine most of it will be spent on Alan Teger and similar big names. I'd suggest you name your price, so I can consider if we can afford to buy your photos.

Obviously, you'll keep copyright of your own photos, so this'd be a worldwide non-exclusive licence.

The publishing house in question is Wiley, and they are talking about a rather large print run (20K). I believe distribution would be world-wide, but certainly US and UK.

Thanks for getting back to me this quickly."

Assuming you were feeling positive about this, how much would you ask per picture for a non-exclusive WW licence ?

Brian V.

AntoineD

Maybe you should consider asking for at least a percentage.

Let's say they are on a limited budget: selling their book will lead to some profit. I don't think they would mind giving you a percentage, plus some books. If they do mind doing this little retribution (which may grow as books sell), forget about it and make you own book

gus

I suppose they are always on the look out for wood ducks whom will part with their shots for free. That didnt work so now its the next phase to see how little they have to pay.

I know stuff all about this sort of dealing but the bushy in me says he is playing possum big time. He has money & he wants to part with as little as possible...after all that biz. Never leave money on the counter ..right.

I'd play possum back..ie ..you want them then its up to you to say what you are going to pay. Remember they approached you & not you them.

AntoineD

gus wrote:

I suppose they are always on the look out for wood ducks whom will part with their shots for free. That didnt work so now its the next phase to see how little they have to pay.

I know stuff all about this sort of dealing but the bushy in me says he is playing possum big time. He has money & he wants to part with as little as possible...after all that biz. Never leave money on the counter ..right.

I'd play possum back..ie ..you want them then its up to you to say what you are going to pay. Remember they approached you & not you them.

Moreover, since you've described yourself as a amateur, you definitely have nothing to loose asking for a real retribution. Explain to him he would like to write the book for free...

Lord Vetinari

Thanks for the comments/help.
I actually do have another publisher showing some interest but I really do not feel that will come to anything. I'm not particularly motivated to write my own book as photography for me is a hobby and not a money making job.

I was thinking of asking for something like £200 for each photograph they want to use on a non-exclusive world wide licence basis plus say two or three copies of the book for free.
Do you think this would be reasonable?

Brian V.

Jeffro

I'm not sure I would do anything with someone communicating via e-mail with me. I'd ask for all the info about the writer that I could. If you can't verify the info, avoid the ploy.

It wouldn't be the first time someone was duped. Send the pictures, never hear from them again....wouldn't be a stretch.

If it's for real there ought to be plenty of info to confirm as much. His name, address, phone, publisher's name, address, phone.....etc.

Obvioulsy you were a bit sceptical at the on set, so maybe that answers your questions right there....

Lord Vetinari

Jeffro wrote:

I'm not sure I would do anything with someone communicating via e-mail with me. I'd ask for all the info about the writer that I could. If you can't verify the info, avoid the ploy.

It wouldn't be the first time someone was duped. Send the pictures, never hear from them again....wouldn't be a stretch.

If it's for real there ought to be plenty of info to confirm as much. His name, address, phone, publisher's name, address, phone.....etc.

Obvioulsy you were a bit sceptical at the on set, so maybe that answers your questions right there....

Sorry - perhaps should have said- I do have the persons real name and have been able to look them up on the NET and the person is a writer with an interest in macro photography. Think we are a long way from sending anything anywhere
Brian v.

AntoineD

Lord Vetinari wrote:

Thanks for the comments/help.
I actually do have another publisher showing some interest but I really do not feel that will come to anything. I'm not particularly motivated to write my own book as photography for me is a hobby and not a money making job.

I was thinking of asking for something like £200 for each photograph they want to use on a non-exclusive world wide licence basis plus say two or three copies of the book for free.
Do you think this would be reasonable?

Brian V.

I think the price is kind of okay if they are on a short budget, especially because you weren't expecting to sell them. It's not the biggest price but a publication is a good thing, anyway.

But there's is one clear thing Jeffro kinda said: you have to meet the guy, then talk about money then finally give a cd (just give small preview at the very beginning), unless he's living in another continent.

gus

Lord Vetinari wrote:

I was thinking of asking for something like £200 for each photograph they want to use on a non-exclusive world wide licence basis plus say two or three copies of the book for free.
Do you think this would be reasonable?

Brian V.

I was asked a few weeks back to allow some prints (no idea which one or why) they were a US corp & i said yes to $500 US a print. Im the same as you ..its a hobbie & i dont need the money but im tightening the screws that if any one other than a local sportsman/woman wants them then thats the price.

Hell i see people here selling prints that i dont like at all for $2k-$5k People must pay it or else pro's wouldnt ask it.

I cant use $50 bucks for more gear but i can use $500.

fotodojo

Lord Vetinari wrote:

Sorry - perhaps should have said- I do have the persons real name and have been able to look them up on the NET and the person is a writer with an interest in macro photography. Think we are a long way from sending anything anywhere
Brian v.

Lord V - I'd ring him and take the conversation to a more personal level - sometimes that helps narrow down his resolve. I am still somewhat curious that he was asked to write a book and then asks you for some photos thought obviously that is the little "worst case deamon" speaking, the "all is well daemon" is reminding me that he might just like your (excellent) macro's after all I am on Australia and came across your shots on Flickr and a few other places before Your shots stand out.

If we're just talking 2 or 3 photos and you get some money for them (definitely not for free!) I'd say I'd consider it if he turned out to be "for real".

Stustaff

Hmm what if he is for real and genuinly has no budget.

Him getting your pictures for free and you getting published and advertising for free sems ok if its a small number of shots.

Ensuring say that he links to your website in his book to increase your business.

If he is for real and cant afford $200 dollars so doesnt use your shots then... you get nothing!

Lord Vetinari

Thanks again for the comments /suggestions.
As I said above, I don't do photography as a business- it's a pleasure hobby for me but if I can make some money with minimum effort on my part then obviously I will. I've covered the cost of a canon 20D and an MPE-65 lens so far this year . I already get a fair amount of exposure just from Flickr/smugmug and photsites like this one. I have actually emailed back that I'd be happy with £250 per shot used non exclusive licence and 3 copies of the book gratis
The originator obviously does have a budget as they were implying that would be spent on some big-name photographers.
I'll see how it goes from there- possibly nowhere but I'm aware that "pros" get extremely annoyed at amateurs like me giving away pics for free- the biggest problem is knowing how much to ask for.
Brian V.

Lord Vetinari

Just to keep this upto date- reply to above offer
"£250 is probably about five times more than we can afford per photo, but I'll keep you in mind if it turns out that I'm wrong.

Keep up the great work, man, your photos are fantastic."

Negotiating ploy?

Brian V.

gus

Lord Vetinari wrote:

Just to keep this upto date- reply to above offer
"£250 is probably about five times more than we can afford per photo, but I'll keep you in mind if it turns out that I'm wrong.

Keep up the great work, man, your photos are fantastic."

Negotiating ploy?

Brian V.

Ignor it as long as you are eating better than bread & dripping tonight...but thats just me. Remember they contacted you. They have already lied once with the old... 'we cant pay you at all' line & now they want them for a fiddy each. Stand your ground & expect to have them not call back.

gluwater

Personally I think this is a scam. Why would a large publisher like Wiley ask an author to write a book on a subject such as Macro and not give a budget for the images which would be a large part of the book? If it was me I would try to contact the publisher to find out if this guy was even legit or not. Your images are as good as any pro's out there and you should be paid for your talent.

gus

gluwater wrote:

Personally I think this is a scam. Why would a large publisher like Wiley ask an author to write a book on a subject such as Macro and not give a budget for the images which would be a large part of the book? If it was me I would try to contact the publisher to find out if this guy was even legit or not. Your images are as good as any pro's out there and you should be paid for your talent.

True mate however i see it as typical big biz company wanting things for nothing from a small show such as brians with the promise of your name in lights only & not knowing how this style of biz works i cant really comment except that if i was to sell like this then i would want some nice new camera gear out of the deal...not a 3 legged dog & a kick in the jatz crackers for my trouble.

Stustaff

gus wrote:

True mate however i see it as typical big biz company wanting things for nothing from a small show such as brians with the promise of your name in lights only & not knowing how this style of biz works i cant really comment except that if i was to sell like this then i would want some nice new camera gear out of the deal...not a 3 legged dog & a kick in the jatz crackers for my trouble.

BUT if your not in business and have no real known profile in the print media having shots in a book(if there is one) would be a good advert and may lead to work or images being picked up, also very useful in the future to be able to say you have had images published by Wiley.

If you look at other businesses a top Restaurant doesnt give food away for free! apart from they do! to get interest generated in the first place.

exposure is of worth and the monetary vakue of this sort of exposure could be considerable.

If FHM said to a photographer we want to use some of your images but we are only offering £50. then you have to way up the benefit of having those images displayed and getting £50, if they are images you have already shot then there is no real cost issue so maybe you can afford to take the exposure and publicity.

or maybe you cant afford not to miss out on it?

Lord Vetinari

Thanks again for the ideas/thoughts etc.
I'm trying to contact the publishers (they are in fact fairly local to me) just to try and check the authenticity.
I figure I'll just stay quiet now and assuming it's genuine see if they come back with a more firm counter offer.
Be interesting to know how a publisher/author does the financing of a book like this. Wonder if the author gets a lump sum to write and set up the photographs etc and then perhaps a percent of sales. ie any photograph costs are eating into the Authors earnings ?
Brian V.

Khaos

Stustaff wrote:

BUT if your not in business and have no real known profile in the print media having shots in a book(if there is one) would be a good advert and may lead to work or images being picked up, also very useful in the future to be able to say you have had images published by Wiley.

If you look at other businesses a top Restaurant doesnt give food away for free! apart from they do! to get interest generated in the first place.

exposure is of worth and the monetary vakue of this sort of exposure could be considerable.

If FHM said to a photographer we want to use some of your images but we are only offering £50. then you have to way up the benefit of having those images displayed and getting £50, if they are images you have already shot then there is no real cost issue so maybe you can afford to take the exposure and publicity.

or maybe you cant afford not to miss out on it?

I disagree.
I'm not a pro, but I can see why this type of thought drives pros crazy.

What kind of exposure will actually occur? When a company buys advertising there are numbers of how many people, what age group, income level, ect., that will see the add and the price is then based on that.

Who will actually see this book? Other photographers, most likely amateurs since this apparenlty has no budget. I don't know about you, but advertising my work to other photographers doesn't seem like a great way to get future business. It would be like that restraunt giving free food mostly to other chefs.

Which now brings my to how that analogy is flawed. Restraunts deal with bulk service and return business where many people buy their favorite meal repeatedly. I don't see someone buying the same photograph multiple times nor getting enough people to go buy photographs via word of mouth.

Bottom line, exposure is different than publicity. Not all forms of exposure are good. Giving your work away for free when its not used for charity or for way below market value devalues not only you but the work of other photographers.

Stustaff

Khaos wrote:

I disagree.
I'm not a pro, but I can see why this type of thought drives pros crazy.

What kind of exposure will actually occur? When a company buys advertising there are numbers of how many people, what age group, income level, ect., that will see the add and the price is then based on that.

Who will actually see this book? Other photographers, most likely amateurs since this apparenlty has no budget. I don't know about you, but advertising my work to other photographers doesn't seem like a great way to get future business. It would be like that restraunt giving free food mostly to other chefs.

Which now brings my to how that analogy is flawed. Restraunts deal with bulk service and return business where many people buy their favorite meal repeatedly. I don't see someone buying the same photograph multiple times nor getting enough people to go buy photographs via word of mouth.

Bottom line, exposure is different than publicity. Not all forms of exposure are good. Giving your work away for free when its not used for charity or for way below market value devalues not only you but the work of other photographers.

I do see what you mean but I would expect that at least some people may see the photos in a book and think... "Hmm Id like to buy that" and then if the contact details are in the book then its free advertising simple as that.

If your business is taking images to sell for individual print then any exposure that costs you nothing is free advertising even if only two people see it its more than would of done otherwise and may increase your profit and revenue.

If your business is taking on contracts from publishers and creating images for books then you would of course charge them your normal rate, although if the book was a book on great photographers that do book work, then getting your name and images in that could again generate much revenue in the future.

Its like saying you are a painter and soeone wants to feature your painting in a magazine along with details of how people can buy your work, and the artist turning it down because they wont pay any money.

Lord Vetinari

Interesting arguments
Couple of points- I don't need exposure to sell prints- I don't sell prints or try to. I've already had exposure with a 2 page spread in one of the daily papers here- that's a couple of million circulation. My FlickR account has just gone over the 300000 views.
The main point is that I don't want to feel ripped off or let the photographic profession down by not charging but felt fairly hopeless on guessing what a fair price would be. I would however be delighted to get my pics into a decent book just from the achievement point of view.

Brian V.