exposure is of worth and the monetary vakue of this sort of exposure could be considerable.
Ha!
I bet the author of this supposed book is getting paid. Why wouldn't he, right? Or is he doing it simply for the exposure of getting a book with his name published on it?
It is a hard lesson to learn, but all the pros out there who say do not give away your photos for free in exchange for access or exposure or possible future work are all exactly correct. Freebies do not get you anywhere, do not pay for gear, do not pay the mortgage.
I got $300 for one photo to be published in a Texas 8th grade math text book for one year, for one state. And schoolbooks are supposed to be notorious about budgets, from what I have been told.
They want your macro photos? They can pay for them.
I bet the author of this supposed book is getting paid.
They want your macro photos? They can pay for them.
Thats it...every one is going to have a snout in the trough but for one of the main people that did the work..aka brian. This is how big biz stays where it is...by screwing smaller people.
I used to purchase for a large company with about 100 stores & every day i had people (small private business's) come to me & show me things & try to get us to sell them. I saw how senior management spoke of them behind their backs & how they would always want it for free & tell them that they will be getting good exposure...in reality if it wasnt what our company wanted then they wouldnt have even got the time of day in the first place. The company needed them to survive also with new stuff & inovation.
Pricing your work
The first thing that you will want to do is to find out how much the other guys are getting for images. I took a look at www.gettyimages.com and looked up macros and located an image of a fly as an example. These are the prices for a royalty free image through Getty Images.
1mb - 72 dpi - 6"x10" - RGB $ 134.99 USD 10MB - 300 dpi - 5"x7" - RGB $ 324.99 USD 28MB - 300 dpi - 9"x12" - RGB $ 424.99 USD 48MB - 300 dpi - 11"x17" - RGB $ 434.99 USD[URL="javascript:__doPostBack('ucPriceAndAdd$rptOptions$_ctl4$lnkAddToCart','')"]
[/URL]
I could not get into the rights managed prices, but I think that you get the idea.
Thats it...every one is going to have a snout in the trough but for one of the main people that did the work..aka brian. This is how big biz stays where it is...by screwing smaller people.
I used to purchase for a large company with about 100 stores & every day i had people (small private business's) come to me & show me things & try to get us to sell them. I saw how senior management spoke of them behind their backs & how they would always want it for free & tell them that they will be getting good exposure...in reality if it wasnt what our company wanted then they wouldnt have even got the time of day in the first place. The company needed them to survive also with new stuff & inovation.
Steve-o
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Lord VetinariRegistered UsersPosts: 15,901Major grins
The first thing that you will want to do is to find out how much the other guys are getting for images. I took a look at www.gettyimages.com and looked up macros and located an image of a fly as an example. These are the prices for a royalty free image through Getty Images.
Thanks for the info- looks as if £250 is not unreasonable
Brian V.
Nope, I know that there are other sites that let you price out royalty managed photographs, you would include the circulation of the book, if the photograph will be on the front cover, back cover, or how much of a page is will take. Like 1/4 of the page vs full page. It also takes into account how widely the book will be circulated, as in USA only UK only, world wide. As that grows so does the price. So I do not believe that your price is un-reasonable. Could get you that next gem for your camera
If I find that site I will post it here. I think that it would be interesting for all. One thing to remember too is that the agency is getting a cut of that price as well, so actually you could charge less, and still come out ahead
The main point is that I don't want to feel ripped off or let the photographic profession down by not charging but felt fairly hopeless on guessing what a fair price would be.
I would however be delighted to get my pics into a decent book just from the achievement point of view.
Brian V.
You would be delighted to get your prints published! great reason to do it even if its only £50
Not letting down the proffesion? so you miss out on feeling wonderful so as not to let down the proffesion! that seems a strange thing to say to me.
At the end of the day your not a proffesional you dont need the money
so unless they offer more money you need to decide
let them have them and feel wonderful and have the pleasure of showing friends and family your images published ina book for years to come.
Or please the "profesion" and have what to show for it exactly?
Guess Im just selfish because I would make myself happy.
Trapped in my bedroom taking pictures...did i say bedroom? i meant studio!
You would be delighted to get your prints published! great reason to do it even if its only £50
Not letting down the proffesion? so you miss out on feeling wonderful so as not to let down the proffesion! that seems a strange thing to say to me.
At the end of the day your not a proffesional you dont need the money
so unless they offer more money you need to decide
let them have them and feel wonderful and have the pleasure of showing friends and family your images published ina book for years to come.
Or please the "profesion" and have what to show for it exactly?
Guess Im just selfish because I would make myself happy.
Fair points- I sort have been there and done that with another book on "The cultural history of the fly"- this is an academic book with low likely sales (10000 max) but I have allowed some of my pics to be used in it for free (just for a copy of the book).
One of the reasons for asking a "reasonable" price on the original photo request is I have no idea what the quality of the book will be like both from a writing point of view and photographic reproduction point of view- it good be a huge dissappointment.
At the end of the day your not a proffesional you dont need the money
Would you like it if someone moonlighted for free in your profession simply because they didn't need the money?
Guess Im just selfish because I would make myself happy.
Well, fine. But you had mentioned that doing this book for free was of great value for potential work, portfolio, blah blah. And what has been pointed out is how wrong that particular line of reasoning is. If you want to get published just to make yourself happy with zero financial gain, I find that odd but whatever floats your boat. If you want to get published for free hoping it brings you more work through exposure then you are fooling yourself.
What Lord V is entering into is a negotiation for something the client NEEDS (remember, they came to him, not the other way around), and CLAIMING that they cannot pay much for it. Nobody ever enters into a negotiation and immediately offers the most they can afford to pay. Now, if you want to roll over and take them at face value...
This is a business decision Lord V is entering into. Its not a charity. Its not non-profit. The book publisher will make money. The editor will make money. The author will make money. The guy running the printing presses will make money. Its not about whether Lord V "needs" the money, its about whether they need his photos. You are being a bit naive about all of this.
Would you like it if someone moonlighted for free in your profession simply because they didn't need the money?
If someone moonlighting in my proffesion did better work than me and charged very little or nothing for it id be very unhappy, and in the end it would in theory force me to get better so I could still charge or look at other ways of making money.
Of course its easy to say that and very different to be that logical if it was actually happening.
Well, fine. But you had mentioned that doing this book for free was of great value for potential work, portfolio, blah blah. And what has been pointed out is how wrong that particular line of reasoning is.
Not to me it hasnt, It seems very simple if I am trying to sell images I need people to know that I exist! getting my images in a publication will help with that! its fairly simple and am sure you understand it?
If you want to get published just to make yourself happy with zero financial gain, I find that odd but whatever floats your boat.
why odd? I take photographs for my own pleasure, its not my business whats odd about that?
If I could get both then great but I wouldnt expect heaps of money without achieving something first.
If you want to get published for free hoping it brings you more work through exposure then you are fooling yourself.
I think your wrong. exposure can bring offers of work! are you seriously saying you cant imagine someone needing good macro photos for a lets say print media advert, doing some research by say looking at a macro photography book? then seeing some perfect images and so getting in touch with the photographer?
What Lord V is entering into is a negotiation for something the client NEEDS (remember, they came to him, not the other way around), and CLAIMING that they cannot pay much for it. Nobody ever enters into a negotiation and immediately offers the most they can afford to pay. Now, if you want to roll over and take them at face value...
This is a business decision Lord V is entering into. Its not a charity. Its not non-profit. The book publisher will make money. The editor will make money. The author will make money. The guy running the printing presses will make money. Its not about whether Lord V "needs" the money, its about whether they need his photos. You are being a bit naive about all of this.
No im not! you are in photography as a business! hence your opinion.
Im not! and neither is lord V which is why he and anyone considers what they would LIKE it isnt a NEED issue for Lord V and maybe he decides, "Heck I dont NEED the money but would LIKE to see my images in print."
and maybe they dont NEED his images but would LIKE them, so made a genuine offer!
Just because someone has a different opinion to you doesnt make them Naive!
Trapped in my bedroom taking pictures...did i say bedroom? i meant studio!
I think your wrong. exposure can bring offers of work! are you seriously saying you cant imagine someone needing good macro photos for a lets say print media advert, doing some research by say looking at a macro photography book? then seeing some perfect images and so getting in touch with the photographer?
Apparanty that is how they found Lord V in the first place. And it didn't bring an offer of much monetary value, did it?
Just because someone has a different opinion to you doesnt make them Naive!
Of course it doesn't. Its not that your opinion is different than mine that makes it naive. Its that your opinion is naive in and of itself. I'm not a working professional photographer in the fact this is not my primary source of income. Heck, I don't even "need" to get paid for my photos in order to pay for my gear. But how many working photographers shouting "giving away photos for free in hopes of future paying work is futile" does it take before it sinks in? I learned the hard way. I used to believe EXACTLY as you do. Guess what happened?
Lord VetinariRegistered UsersPosts: 15,901Major grins
edited August 25, 2006
Calm down guys-
I believe you can get all the exposure you want simply by using one of the photosites like Smugmug or FlickR. I've been tracked down several times via that route. However that kind of misses the point in some ways as I'm not trying to run a commercial enterprise in the first place. Of course I'm delighted though to be able to cover the cost of my hobby.
I do believe however that many media companies will take advantage of amateur photographers if they are allowed to, so almost on a point of principle I think it is fair to ask a reasonable fee for a photograph produced by an amateur but used for commercial reasons. Having said that I have had the price of photograph talked up by a media agency from my original asking price as they thought it was too low . So they are not all bad.
Returning to the original question though I think I'll just leave it now and see if they come back or not- I'm not that anxious to be properly published
Book of Macro Photography and he dont have macro photos
How will he explain each photo i mean technique of each photo afterall he have to do that because it is book of macro photography
Thine is the beauty of light; mine is the song of fire. Thy beauty exalts the heart; my song inspires the soul. Allama Iqbal
Book of Macro Photography and he dont have macro photos
How will he explain each photo i mean technique of each photo afterall he have to do that because it is book of macro photography
Book of Macro Photography and he dont have macro photos
How will he explain each photo i mean technique of each photo afterall he have to do that because it is book of macro photography
the guy who sent the e-mail to him said - "and I was wondering if you would be interested in supplying some of the photos for the book."
The emphasis I would guess on SOME, maybe its a macro photography book about how to do it and this guys macro images are all of circuitry for example so he wanted a small amount of insect macro to show other uses for macro photography.
Maybe he COULD take the photos himself but doesnt really want or have time/ability for the hassle of getting images as good as Lord V so thought he'd ask, but if he has to pay what he considers a lot for them then he will just do it himself.
or maybe not
Trapped in my bedroom taking pictures...did i say bedroom? i meant studio!
I got something similar for a wedding thing. it's VERY generic and that makes me a little leery.
I just ignored the wedding photo offer and they never got back to me. I think that if it were THAT important, they would have.... I'm glad I didn't do it. Very minor up side (you get your name in print), lots of down sides (no money, they think they can keep coming to you, etc.)
Good luck with your decision.
Oh, also... if you were to actually get this published, you'd probably get between $200-600 per photo depending on how many books were published....
Who will actually see this book? Other photographers, most likely amateurs since this apparenlty has no budget. I don't know about you, but advertising my work to other photographers doesn't seem like a great way to get future business. It would be like that restraunt giving free food mostly to other chefs.
It isn't about who will read the book. It is about gaining experience and resume building. Being able to say "Look, I was published in this nice book published by a major, reputable publisher!" adds credibility.
Just like a scientist or engineer having research published in trade publications. The only people that are going to read that stuff is other people in similar trades. And publishing by itself is definitely not going to pay the bills. But that isn't necessarily the draw of publishing like that..
I would however be delighted to get my pics into a decent book just from the achievement point of view.
Exactly. I'm w/ you here.. The catch is that you say you've done this before. Maybe it is time to get past the free-bies just to learn the process and to get into a position where there is more reward for you. Then again, maybe you're not there yet.. maybe you never will be.
Would you like it if someone moonlighted for free in your profession simply because they didn't need the money?
Happens all the time in my line of work. I am a professional software engineer. There's this whole thing called the 'open source community' that is supposed to basically take my job away. ... The reality is that it does not. We compliment each other. I obviously offer something that the average open-sourcer/moonlighter doesn't because I'm still here, still employed. All that in a time of out-sourcing and the like..
Photography is no different. If the market does not bear the price you are asking, then I feel you are asking for too much.
It isn't about who will read the book. It is about gaining experience and resume building. Being able to say "Look, I was published in this nice book published by a major, reputable publisher!" adds credibility.
Just like a scientist or engineer having research published in trade publications. The only people that are going to read that stuff is other people in similar trades. And publishing by itself is definitely not going to pay the bills. But that isn't necessarily the draw of publishing like that..
Exactly. I'm w/ you here.. The catch is that you say you've done this before. Maybe it is time to get past the free-bies just to learn the process and to get into a position where there is more reward for you. Then again, maybe you're not there yet.. maybe you never will be.
Happens all the time in my line of work. I am a professional software engineer. There's this whole thing called the 'open source community' that is supposed to basically take my job away. ... The reality is that it does not. We compliment each other. I obviously offer something that the average open-sourcer/moonlighter doesn't because I'm still here, still employed. All that in a time of out-sourcing and the like..
Photography is no different. If the market does not bear the price you are asking, then I feel you are asking for too much.
If someone is publishing a book, they are either earning royalties, getting paid a flat fee, or they're publishing it themselves. The only circumstance in which they shouldn't be paying you some flat fee for your photos is if they're publishing it themselves. If they're publishing it themselves, you should either be donating the photo (e.g., to the Little Sisters of the Poor Macro Photographers) or negotiating some kind of fee (you sell 20K copies, I get $XXX).
I suspect that almost anybody whose book would be good resume fodder would also pay you.
It isn't about who will read the book. It is about gaining experience and resume building. Being able to say "Look, I was published in this nice book published by a major, reputable publisher!" adds credibility.
Being able to say "someone paid me nothing for my photos" basically says "my photos were not worth paying for". That does not add credibility.
Why people think it is a good idea to fork over your hard work to someone, for free, so they can use your hard work to put dollars in their pockets but not yours is a very strange concept. People, wise-up, there is zero reason why you cannot get exposure and money at the same time!
Being able to say "someone paid me nothing for my photos" basically says "my photos were not worth paying for". That does not add credibility.
Why people think it is a good idea to fork over your hard work to someone, for free, so they can use your hard work to put dollars in their pockets but not yours is a very strange concept. People, wise-up, there is zero reason why you cannot get exposure and money at the same time!
Im not going to argue because I would agree with exactly what you say!
But what you seem to keep missing is to him and me and others it isnt our "hardwork" that we are being asked for, its the end product of something we do for fun and enjoyment our own pleaseure! and sometimes seeing it in print increases that enjoyment and pleasure.
At the end of the day its all perception!
As a full time pro it seems that you see images as the fruits of hard work that deserve to be payed for because that is the job and you need that money to live on.
We see images as a beautiful thing that we created and want to share with others because we enjoy doing that and thats why we do it, not to make money.
If we can both accept those differences then I dont think there would be any arguments.
Trapped in my bedroom taking pictures...did i say bedroom? i meant studio!
Being able to say "someone paid me nothing for my photos" basically says "my photos were not worth paying for". That does not add credibility.
It does to me! Being able to say "someone thought my photos were good enough to publish" tells me that they are better than mine!
I am considering entering some photographs in at least one fair competition this fall. Entering in such a competition is similar: I will be giving them the 'rights' to use my image to advertise and draw visitors.. and not be getting any garunteed compensation from it. My motive to enter is to gain experience and get my artwork shown to others. I see this book deal as a potential opportunity for Lord V to do much the same, just on a far different scale.
As to if that experience is worth the 'cost' of giving up his artwork.. well, that is up to him.
As a full time pro it seems that you see images as the fruits of hard work that deserve to be payed for because that is the job and you need that money to live on.
I've said before I am not a full-time pro. I have a very high paying day job. I don't need the income to pay for the gear. I've said this before. You do not undestand why I have my opinion.
I can understand if you want to hand over photos for personal pleasure. My entire point of disagreement is if the exposure has much value at all for bringing in future work. As I also said I used to agree with you completely in that regard, no matter what true working pros told me. I learned the hard way. I'm wondering if you place a high value on the exposure and its ability to bring in paying work based on personal experience or just on a hunch.
So when someone says "think of the exposure and how much value it will be for you to give away some photos - it will bring you paying work" I want to stand up and say "it doesn't work that way".
Like Rutt (I think it was him) said also in this thread, people in corporate board rooms sit around low-balling just waiting for someone gullible enough to believe "we don't have a budget for that (even though we need what you have)".
So when someone says "think of the exposure and how much value it will be for you to give away some photos - it will bring you paying work" I want to stand up and say "it doesn't work that way".
We (at least not all of us) are not saying that. What we are saying is that 'giving away' photos brings some compensation, the value of which cannot necessarily be measured in terms of dollars. If that compensation has no value to you, so beit. It does have value to some of us..
Some of us could care less about what will 'bring in paying work'.
Being able to say "someone paid me nothing for my photos" basically says "my photos were not worth paying for". That does not add credibility.
Why people think it is a good idea to fork over your hard work to someone, for free, so they can use your hard work to put dollars in their pockets but not yours is a very strange concept. People, wise-up, there is zero reason why you cannot get exposure and money at the same time!
Hi. I'm a young photographer, I'm starting to work. It becomes more and more paying but it's hard.
Do you know how you come to be hired? By presenting a consistent portfolio. And, well... do you know how you build a professionnal portfolio? Take a hint!
Today, I finally had this pro meeting that says: "you're in". Before that, I've had to take some unpaying assignments, etc. I've always thought these were assignments for which one should have paid. But sometimes, either is there no money, or someone ain't willing to give some. You know what? If you don't take it, somebody will.
It's trully sad but I'm glad I've chosen to work for free sometimes, it's a kind of probono. Now, I can present these picture and say: I'm your man. Nobody has to know previous work was for free Meanwhile, I totally agree with you all: every published picture worth a buck, but, well... the reality ain't always nice.
LordV: it seems like there is some money. Take some and publish your work It will be a great thing, not only for your ego By the way: to make everybody cool, don't hesitate to ask for a percentage on the sales.
But try asking for more copies of the book It will be a great portfolio if you're willing to get assignments later.
It's all about philosophy, somehow. Some want to do their stuffs for free, some others don't. We can't help it.
Thanks Antoine,
The basic problem I have is that I don't do it for the money and regularly allow people to use my low res flickr photographs for blogs, nature newspapers etc. I can understand the need maybe to do free photography when you are trying to establish yourself as a professional photographer but I am not trying to set myself up as a professional photographer.
I do feel however that the media are ripping off amateurs when a money making concern expects to get it's photographs for free.
I think the latest reply from the original requestor amplifies the point I am trying to make- I received this today.
"I've had a massive response from people who are interested in supplying photos for the book free of charge. I would have loved to use some of your photos, but in this case, I'm afraid supply outstrips demand, and I am unable to offer to pay you anything for your photographs.
If you would be interested in supplying some photographs free of charge, that would have been lovely, but if not, that's no problem."
Remember I don't need the money but I think the above statement IF FACTUAL is a bit sad.
I think the latest reply from the original requestor amplifies the point I am trying to make- I received this today.
"I've had a massive response from people who are interested in supplying photos for the book free of charge. I would have loved to use some of your photos, but in this case, I'm afraid supply outstrips demand, and I am unable to offer to pay you anything for your photographs.
If you would be interested in supplying some photographs free of charge, that would have been lovely, but if not, that's no problem."
Remember I don't need the money but I think the above statement IF FACTUAL is a bit sad.
Brian V.
very sad... too bad more people do not value their work. I have not given my photos to anyone, and I too have a good paying day job. I just keep taking pictures, improving my work and continue to charge what I believe is a fair price. At first I was lured by the whole microstock idea. Read the stories of people making a lot from those images, but then I started to look deeper and those stories are far and few between. There are few people that make big $$ microstock, all the others are just killing themselves to upload, keyword etc for not a lot of return.
Lord V I am glad that you stuck to your guns Keep shooting those wonderful macros and hopefully soon I will be start taking some of my own.
"I've had a massive response from people who are interested in supplying photos for the book free of charge.
Lord V, please write back to those people and tell them that you have found a massive response of people who would like a copy of that book free of charge. Sounds like a neat book. I'd like one. I don't want to pay for it, I just want a copy.
I, too, am glad you passed on giving away your work to this book.
Lord V, please write back to those people and tell them that you have found a massive response of people who would like a copy of that book free of charge. Sounds like a neat book. I'd like one. I don't want to pay for it, I just want a copy.
I, too, am glad you passed on giving away your work to this book.
Actually you should email him back and tell him thanks for the knowledge and now you have a list of people who you can solict for macro photos for use in a book you are going to publish.
On second thought don't do that.
I have recently been approached by a publisher to do a book and they have given me a minimal budget that has no money for pictures. I am willing to give you a lot of exposure with photo credit by every photo used. . . . I think I am on to a new career. But I guess I need to lose my beliefs and conscious and be willing to take advantage of people. Not sure I can do it.:hide
"A photo is like a hamburger. You can get one from McDonalds for $1, one from Chili's for $5, or one from Ruth's Chris for $15. You usually get what you pay for, but don't expect a Ruth's Chris burger at a McDonalds price, if you want that, go cook it yourself." - me
Comments
I bet the author of this supposed book is getting paid. Why wouldn't he, right? Or is he doing it simply for the exposure of getting a book with his name published on it?
It is a hard lesson to learn, but all the pros out there who say do not give away your photos for free in exchange for access or exposure or possible future work are all exactly correct. Freebies do not get you anywhere, do not pay for gear, do not pay the mortgage.
I got $300 for one photo to be published in a Texas 8th grade math text book for one year, for one state. And schoolbooks are supposed to be notorious about budgets, from what I have been told.
They want your macro photos? They can pay for them.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
I used to purchase for a large company with about 100 stores & every day i had people (small private business's) come to me & show me things & try to get us to sell them. I saw how senior management spoke of them behind their backs & how they would always want it for free & tell them that they will be getting good exposure...in reality if it wasnt what our company wanted then they wouldnt have even got the time of day in the first place. The company needed them to survive also with new stuff & inovation.
The first thing that you will want to do is to find out how much the other guys are getting for images. I took a look at www.gettyimages.com and looked up macros and located an image of a fly as an example. These are the prices for a royalty free image through Getty Images.
1mb - 72 dpi - 6"x10" - RGB
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I could not get into the rights managed prices, but I think that you get the idea.
Just take the picture
Pictures are at available at:http://www.ballentphoto.com
My Blog: http://ballentphoto.blogspot.com
I like that! :lol4
Thanks for the info- looks as if £250 is not unreasonable
Brian V.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lordv/
http://www.lordv.smugmug.com/
Nope, I know that there are other sites that let you price out royalty managed photographs, you would include the circulation of the book, if the photograph will be on the front cover, back cover, or how much of a page is will take. Like 1/4 of the page vs full page. It also takes into account how widely the book will be circulated, as in USA only UK only, world wide. As that grows so does the price. So I do not believe that your price is un-reasonable. Could get you that next gem for your camera
If I find that site I will post it here. I think that it would be interesting for all. One thing to remember too is that the agency is getting a cut of that price as well, so actually you could charge less, and still come out ahead
Just take the picture
Pictures are at available at:http://www.ballentphoto.com
My Blog: http://ballentphoto.blogspot.com
You would be delighted to get your prints published! great reason to do it even if its only £50
Not letting down the proffesion? so you miss out on feeling wonderful so as not to let down the proffesion! that seems a strange thing to say to me.
At the end of the day your not a proffesional you dont need the money
so unless they offer more money you need to decide
let them have them and feel wonderful and have the pleasure of showing friends and family your images published ina book for years to come.
Or please the "profesion" and have what to show for it exactly?
Guess Im just selfish because I would make myself happy.
My www. place is www.belperphoto.co.uk
My smugmug galleries at http://stuarthill.smugmug.com
Fair points- I sort have been there and done that with another book on "The cultural history of the fly"- this is an academic book with low likely sales (10000 max) but I have allowed some of my pics to be used in it for free (just for a copy of the book).
One of the reasons for asking a "reasonable" price on the original photo request is I have no idea what the quality of the book will be like both from a writing point of view and photographic reproduction point of view- it good be a huge dissappointment.
Brian V.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lordv/
http://www.lordv.smugmug.com/
Well, fine. But you had mentioned that doing this book for free was of great value for potential work, portfolio, blah blah. And what has been pointed out is how wrong that particular line of reasoning is. If you want to get published just to make yourself happy with zero financial gain, I find that odd but whatever floats your boat. If you want to get published for free hoping it brings you more work through exposure then you are fooling yourself.
What Lord V is entering into is a negotiation for something the client NEEDS (remember, they came to him, not the other way around), and CLAIMING that they cannot pay much for it. Nobody ever enters into a negotiation and immediately offers the most they can afford to pay. Now, if you want to roll over and take them at face value...
This is a business decision Lord V is entering into. Its not a charity. Its not non-profit. The book publisher will make money. The editor will make money. The author will make money. The guy running the printing presses will make money. Its not about whether Lord V "needs" the money, its about whether they need his photos. You are being a bit naive about all of this.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
Of course its easy to say that and very different to be that logical if it was actually happening.
Not to me it hasnt, It seems very simple if I am trying to sell images I need people to know that I exist! getting my images in a publication will help with that! its fairly simple and am sure you understand it?
why odd? I take photographs for my own pleasure, its not my business whats odd about that?
If I could get both then great but I wouldnt expect heaps of money without achieving something first.
I think your wrong. exposure can bring offers of work! are you seriously saying you cant imagine someone needing good macro photos for a lets say print media advert, doing some research by say looking at a macro photography book? then seeing some perfect images and so getting in touch with the photographer?
No im not! you are in photography as a business! hence your opinion.
Im not! and neither is lord V which is why he and anyone considers what they would LIKE it isnt a NEED issue for Lord V and maybe he decides, "Heck I dont NEED the money but would LIKE to see my images in print."
and maybe they dont NEED his images but would LIKE them, so made a genuine offer!
Just because someone has a different opinion to you doesnt make them Naive!
My www. place is www.belperphoto.co.uk
My smugmug galleries at http://stuarthill.smugmug.com
Of course it doesn't. Its not that your opinion is different than mine that makes it naive. Its that your opinion is naive in and of itself. I'm not a working professional photographer in the fact this is not my primary source of income. Heck, I don't even "need" to get paid for my photos in order to pay for my gear. But how many working photographers shouting "giving away photos for free in hopes of future paying work is futile" does it take before it sinks in? I learned the hard way. I used to believe EXACTLY as you do. Guess what happened?
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
I believe you can get all the exposure you want simply by using one of the photosites like Smugmug or FlickR. I've been tracked down several times via that route. However that kind of misses the point in some ways as I'm not trying to run a commercial enterprise in the first place. Of course I'm delighted though to be able to cover the cost of my hobby.
I do believe however that many media companies will take advantage of amateur photographers if they are allowed to, so almost on a point of principle I think it is fair to ask a reasonable fee for a photograph produced by an amateur but used for commercial reasons. Having said that I have had the price of photograph talked up by a media agency from my original asking price as they thought it was too low
Returning to the original question though I think I'll just leave it now and see if they come back or not- I'm not that anxious to be properly published
Brian V.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lordv/
http://www.lordv.smugmug.com/
How will he explain each photo i mean technique of each photo afterall he have to do that because it is book of macro photography
My Gallery
I still haven't get that either
The emphasis I would guess on SOME, maybe its a macro photography book about how to do it and this guys macro images are all of circuitry for example so he wanted a small amount of insect macro to show other uses for macro photography.
Maybe he COULD take the photos himself but doesnt really want or have time/ability for the hassle of getting images as good as Lord V so thought he'd ask, but if he has to pay what he considers a lot for them then he will just do it himself.
or maybe not
My www. place is www.belperphoto.co.uk
My smugmug galleries at http://stuarthill.smugmug.com
I just ignored the wedding photo offer and they never got back to me. I think that if it were THAT important, they would have.... I'm glad I didn't do it. Very minor up side (you get your name in print), lots of down sides (no money, they think they can keep coming to you, etc.)
Good luck with your decision.
Oh, also... if you were to actually get this published, you'd probably get between $200-600 per photo depending on how many books were published....
www.tippiepics.com
Just like a scientist or engineer having research published in trade publications. The only people that are going to read that stuff is other people in similar trades. And publishing by itself is definitely not going to pay the bills. But that isn't necessarily the draw of publishing like that.. Exactly. I'm w/ you here.. The catch is that you say you've done this before. Maybe it is time to get past the free-bies just to learn the process and to get into a position where there is more reward for you. Then again, maybe you're not there yet.. maybe you never will be. Happens all the time in my line of work. I am a professional software engineer. There's this whole thing called the 'open source community' that is supposed to basically take my job away. ... The reality is that it does not. We compliment each other. I obviously offer something that the average open-sourcer/moonlighter doesn't because I'm still here, still employed. All that in a time of out-sourcing and the like..
Photography is no different. If the market does not bear the price you are asking, then I feel you are asking for too much.
If someone is publishing a book, they are either earning royalties, getting paid a flat fee, or they're publishing it themselves. The only circumstance in which they shouldn't be paying you some flat fee for your photos is if they're publishing it themselves. If they're publishing it themselves, you should either be donating the photo (e.g., to the Little Sisters of the Poor Macro Photographers) or negotiating some kind of fee (you sell 20K copies, I get $XXX).
I suspect that almost anybody whose book would be good resume fodder would also pay you.
Being able to say "someone paid me nothing for my photos" basically says "my photos were not worth paying for". That does not add credibility.
Why people think it is a good idea to fork over your hard work to someone, for free, so they can use your hard work to put dollars in their pockets but not yours is a very strange concept. People, wise-up, there is zero reason why you cannot get exposure and money at the same time!
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
Im not going to argue because I would agree with exactly what you say!
But what you seem to keep missing is to him and me and others it isnt our "hardwork" that we are being asked for, its the end product of something we do for fun and enjoyment our own pleaseure! and sometimes seeing it in print increases that enjoyment and pleasure.
At the end of the day its all perception!
As a full time pro it seems that you see images as the fruits of hard work that deserve to be payed for because that is the job and you need that money to live on.
We see images as a beautiful thing that we created and want to share with others because we enjoy doing that and thats why we do it, not to make money.
If we can both accept those differences then I dont think there would be any arguments.
My www. place is www.belperphoto.co.uk
My smugmug galleries at http://stuarthill.smugmug.com
I am considering entering some photographs in at least one fair competition this fall. Entering in such a competition is similar: I will be giving them the 'rights' to use my image to advertise and draw visitors.. and not be getting any garunteed compensation from it. My motive to enter is to gain experience and get my artwork shown to others. I see this book deal as a potential opportunity for Lord V to do much the same, just on a far different scale.
As to if that experience is worth the 'cost' of giving up his artwork.. well, that is up to him.
I can understand if you want to hand over photos for personal pleasure. My entire point of disagreement is if the exposure has much value at all for bringing in future work. As I also said I used to agree with you completely in that regard, no matter what true working pros told me. I learned the hard way. I'm wondering if you place a high value on the exposure and its ability to bring in paying work based on personal experience or just on a hunch.
So when someone says "think of the exposure and how much value it will be for you to give away some photos - it will bring you paying work" I want to stand up and say "it doesn't work that way".
Like Rutt (I think it was him) said also in this thread, people in corporate board rooms sit around low-balling just waiting for someone gullible enough to believe "we don't have a budget for that (even though we need what you have)".
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
Some of us could care less about what will 'bring in paying work'.
Do you know how you come to be hired? By presenting a consistent portfolio. And, well... do you know how you build a professionnal portfolio? Take a hint!
Today, I finally had this pro meeting that says: "you're in". Before that, I've had to take some unpaying assignments, etc. I've always thought these were assignments for which one should have paid. But sometimes, either is there no money, or someone ain't willing to give some. You know what? If you don't take it, somebody will.
It's trully sad but I'm glad I've chosen to work for free sometimes, it's a kind of probono. Now, I can present these picture and say: I'm your man. Nobody has to know previous work was for free
LordV: it seems like there is some money. Take some and publish your work
But try asking for more copies of the book
It's all about philosophy, somehow. Some want to do their stuffs for free, some others don't. We can't help it.
Thanks Antoine,
The basic problem I have is that I don't do it for the money and regularly allow people to use my low res flickr photographs for blogs, nature newspapers etc. I can understand the need maybe to do free photography when you are trying to establish yourself as a professional photographer but I am not trying to set myself up as a professional photographer.
I do feel however that the media are ripping off amateurs when a money making concern expects to get it's photographs for free.
I think the latest reply from the original requestor amplifies the point I am trying to make- I received this today.
"I've had a massive response from people who are interested in supplying photos for the book free of charge. I would have loved to use some of your photos, but in this case, I'm afraid supply outstrips demand, and I am unable to offer to pay you anything for your photographs.
If you would be interested in supplying some photographs free of charge, that would have been lovely, but if not, that's no problem."
Remember I don't need the money but I think the above statement IF FACTUAL is a bit sad.
Brian V.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lordv/
http://www.lordv.smugmug.com/
Lord V I am glad that you stuck to your guns
Just take the picture
Pictures are at available at:http://www.ballentphoto.com
My Blog: http://ballentphoto.blogspot.com
I, too, am glad you passed on giving away your work to this book.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
Might just do that
Brian V.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lordv/
http://www.lordv.smugmug.com/
Actually you should email him back and tell him thanks for the knowledge and now you have a list of people who you can solict for macro photos for use in a book you are going to publish.
On second thought don't do that.
I have recently been approached by a publisher to do a book and they have given me a minimal budget that has no money for pictures. I am willing to give you a lot of exposure with photo credit by every photo used. . . . I think I am on to a new career. But I guess I need to lose my beliefs and conscious and be willing to take advantage of people. Not sure I can do it.:hide