Canon 70-200L f/2.8 focus issues

hesaias

I am noticing that I have a real issue with focus using my f/2.8 70-200L. I don't know if its me, the lens, or the camers (I am figuring its me) Here is how I shoot basketball normaly
Canon rebel XT
AI Servo Focus
Center weighted metering
f/2.8-f/3.2
ISO 800-1600
1/200 minimum
center point AF

It seems even when I am locked on to a shooter shooting a foul shot, its a bit soft, sometimes horribly soft. I have tried with flash(using an OmniBounce) and without flash.

Im really getting miffed after spending the cash on the lens and the flash and seemingly not getting any better results than I was using the pop-up and my EF II 80-200 f/4-f/5

Out of 300 or so shots I get maybe 1-2 really sharp ones if I am lucky.

Anybody got any insight?

RandySmugMug

hesaias wrote:

I am noticing that I have a real issue with focus using my f/2.8 70-200L. I don't know if its me, the lens, or the camers (I am figuring its me) Here is how I shoot basketball normaly
Canon rebel XT
AI Servo Focus
Center weighted metering
f/2.8-f/3.2
ISO 800-1600
1/200 minimum
center point AF




It seems even when I am locked on to a shooter shooting a foul shot, its a bit soft, sometimes horribly soft. I have tried with flash(using an OmniBounce) and without flash.

Im really getting miffed after spending the cash on the lens and the flash and seemingly not getting any better results than I was using the pop-up and my EF II 80-200 f/4-f/5

Out of 300 or so shots I get maybe 1-2 really sharp ones if I am lucky.

Anybody got any insight?

are you sharpening in PP ?
are you waiting the split second the lens needs to lock focus ?


post an example...there's a big diff between soft and OOF

hesaias

RandySmugMug wrote:

are you sharpening in PP ?
are you waiting the split second the lens needs to lock focus ?


post an example...there's a big diff between soft and OOF

I usually have the shutter release halfway depressed so the lens is refocusing, and have recently started shooting 3-4 shot bursts, expecting the first shot to be soft, and the others to be sharper. Also, I have not gotten that good at sharpening in CS2, I am always unhappy with my results.



to me, this shot is OOF. I realize there is some motion blur, as the player was moving pretty fast, but the defenders were still.



and this one is soft. I am looking mainly at the players hands and the ball, but his facial features are soft too. I was about 20' away from the player, and focusing on his face. I figure my DOF should have gotten the ball and his face at that distance.

RandySmugMug

hesaias wrote:

I usually have the shutter release halfway depressed so the lens is refocusing, and have recently started shooting 3-4 shot bursts, expecting the first shot to be soft, and the others to be sharper. Also, I have not gotten that good at sharpening in CS2, I am always unhappy with my results.



to me, this shot is OOF. I realize there is some motion blur, as the player was moving pretty fast, but the defenders were still.



and this one is soft. I am looking mainly at the players hands and the ball, but his facial features are soft too. I was about 20' away from the player, and focusing on his face. I figure my DOF should have gotten the ball and his face at that distance.

i agree that #1 is OOF and it's also maybe noisey
I shoot w/ a buddy who uses a rebel and the 70-200...
I use a 30d & the 70-200 and i think my IQ is way better w/ the 30d...so maybe it's the cam
btw, the 30d is $915 w/ dbl rebate
Send me a RAW file and I'll take a shot at PP

illuminati919

these photos arent really out of focus, theres just a lot of noise. that lens can do great things trust me. practice focusing and timing exactly when its in focus, timing is the key. also pan with all the photos, with a 2.8 lens it is all about being able to realize exactly when the object is in focus and hitting the shutter, try lowering your ISO and shutter a tad bit increase exposure in the raw file. having it in bursts mode isnt gonna catch a better photos the 2nd time around but only make it worse because, that technique is good when shooting in outdoor light where your f stop is in the 11 or 16s. my suggestions is to keep practicing with it and you should be alright.

Jeffro

hesaias wrote:

Make sure that once you locate and lock on your point of focus, that you continue to hold the shutter button halfway down. If you release it, the lens will stop tracking your intended subject, and start to refocus, and by then your shot is lost. It comes with practice. I shoot motocross with the 70-200L 2.8 IS, (with IS off), and capture subjects moving much quicker than BB players, so I'm confidendt it's more of a technique problem than a camera or lens problem. I have shot 20+ burst with every shot in focus using AI Servo, center focusing. Just keep practicing...it's about finger control.

The second just looks like noise to me...or grain as it would be called in the old film days. In my opinion it doesn't hurt the image.

hesaias

I am noticing a large amount of noise/grain in my shots. It is really getting to the point where I hate to see what I shot once I get home because of the crummy quality. I have started to try to get my exposure up, getting the meter closer to the middle, without getting to blown out or to dark. I generaly do not use exp comp, but I may see if that helps any.

ian408

One thing not mentioned and that's that the XT's focus isn't as quick in low
light. What you might be seeing is slow focus.

You're right to shoot a short burst. This should help as will working with
Noise Ninja or another noise reduction package.

winger

From my experience I noticed I got to the point where I was asking the lens to do ALOT.

I can tell you where you will run into problems with the auto focus on the 70-200. In basketball the darker the skin tone coupled with a dark background, the camera had no idea what to focus on. I cant tell you how many 3's from the permiter where the annoucer is tack sharp but the player is out.

I have also noticed when play action is coming towards you it will also have a hard time keeping up. This is certain in hockey and almost as certain in basketball.

Also if you are shooting at higher iso's like 800 and 1600 it is going to take the autofocus longer to focus (because if you are generally shooting at those iso levels there isnt much light) so the autofocus will focus and then by the time it focus, the object has moved and thus now out of focus.

Before you throw the lens out the window (which i strongly advice against) I would first try shooting some still players to see if you are still having a foucsing issue. Then you dont have the issue of players in motion and moving out of what the camera just put in focus. If you get these in focus you can work from there.

Ways I help the auto focus. I try to shoot conditions I know it will succeed in, dark faces and dark backgrounds are a no (even with bright white jerseys) dark faces coming up the court yes. Gaurds will generally pause that is more than enough time (2nd or two is all you need) to get a great action shot.
I also like to shoot under the hoop and out towards the paint clears up alot of the background issues and helps the autofocus.

The other thing is tracking. You camera should always be up if action is going on or not. Save chimping for half time or better yet the end of the game. Checking once in a while to see if you are using the proper settings is ok, but the more you look at the screen the more action you are missing.
After that I pretty much track players with my camera the entire came. continously prefoucsing so when the image i want comes in to my sights I fire!!! In a way its like hunting for great shots. But if you have you camera down and you bring it up and shoot, A) your autofocus is no way in heck going to be able to focus and b) the shot is looooooooooooong gone.

With sports you need to be ready to capture the image. Yes it means some sore arms as you hold that hefty lens up. (for a while i had a mkII with the 70-200 lens i had to use a monopod it was so heavy and i hated it cause the monopod limites your movement. But the 70-200 with a 20d is doable. I know cause i do it all the time.

Man I am verbose.
keep in mind the things i mentioned and hopfully that will clear things up. It really is an increadble lens but I think sometimes in a world of auto this and auto that we really expect ALOT! out of our equipment. And I only say this because I was at the point where I was like what the heck is going on!!! but then i realised I was getting too comfortable in shooting and i was expecting the lens to do all the work! The 70-200 is one of my favorite lenses (althought the 10-22 is pretty cool too) and it is my go to lens for sports.

FatNakedGuy

I don't know if you camera can do this, but with mine, I reprogrammed it to have the focus independant of the shutter button.

Meaning, when I press the shutter button 1/2 way, exposure meter comes on but it will not focus. You have to depress a 2nd button on the camera to actuate focus.

Works super well when I pre-focus on an area I know will have action, and then just wait for the action and snap.

In the past I had the same problem... soft focus while the camera/lens danced around calculating. Now I'm getting a LOT more keepers with the focus removed from the shutter button.

You've got a ton of noise in those shots. Try lowering ISO number to somewhere between 400 and 800 for starters.

Good luck!

Rick
http://rickweller.com

winger

FatNakedGuy wrote:

I don't know if you camera can do this, but with mine, I reprogrammed it to have the focus independant of the shutter button.

Meaning, when I press the shutter button 1/2 way, exposure meter comes on but it will not focus. You have to depress a 2nd button on the camera to actuate focus.

Works super well when I pre-focus on an area I know will have action, and then just wait for the action and snap.

In the past I had the same problem... soft focus while the camera/lens danced around calculating. Now I'm getting a LOT more keepers with the focus removed from the shutter button.

You've got a ton of noise in those shots. Try lowering ISO number to somewhere between 400 and 800 for starters.

Good luck!

Rick
http://rickweller.com

oh yeah that is what i ment by prefoucsing. pretty much any slr will do that (digital or film). But I sort of assumed people would know what i was talking about. But thanks for clarifing it for people who didnt

wxwax

Once again, great stuff from Winger!

hesaias

FatNakedGuy wrote:

I don't know if you camera can do this, but with mine, I reprogrammed it to have the focus independant of the shutter button.

Meaning, when I press the shutter button 1/2 way, exposure meter comes on but it will not focus. You have to depress a 2nd button on the camera to actuate focus.

Works super well when I pre-focus on an area I know will have action, and then just wait for the action and snap.

In the past I had the same problem... soft focus while the camera/lens danced around calculating. Now I'm getting a LOT more keepers with the focus removed from the shutter button.

You've got a ton of noise in those shots. Try lowering ISO number to somewhere between 400 and 800 for starters.

Good luck!

Rick
http://rickweller.com

Im not sure how to do that on my Rebel XT> I have tried, but did something wrong and it did not work.

RandySmugMug

hesaias wrote:

Im not sure how to do that on my Rebel XT> I have tried, but did something wrong and it did not work.

i'm not sure in BB how you can pick a spot to prefocus...maybe baseball but then even that is tuff
IMO adding a 2nd button is to complicated for keeping up w/ fast moving action

lower your iso if u can (don't lower ss below 320) and after u 1/2 depress wait a split second to see the focus light come on and u shud be fine

wxwax

You can't lower your ISO when shooting basketball indoors without strobes. Not if you want a decent shutter speed, that is.

Rene`

hesaias wrote:

I am noticing that I have a real issue with focus using my f/2.8 70-200L. I don't know if its me, the lens, or the camers (I am figuring its me) Here is how I shoot basketball normaly
Canon rebel XT
AI Servo Focus
Center weighted metering
f/2.8-f/3.2
ISO 800-1600
1/200 minimum
center point AF

It seems even when I am locked on to a shooter shooting a foul shot, its a bit soft, sometimes horribly soft. I have tried with flash(using an OmniBounce) and without flash.

Im really getting miffed after spending the cash on the lens and the flash and seemingly not getting any better results than I was using the pop-up and my EF II 80-200 f/4-f/5

Out of 300 or so shots I get maybe 1-2 really sharp ones if I am lucky.

Anybody got any insight?

I too have recently purchased a 70-200 2.8 lens. I have also been disappointed with the slow focus. During football, my pics were much brighter and I had to delete only a few because of OOF. But, wrestling is here now and I was wondering if it was my camera!

I have learned a lot from reading this post. (I feel better.)

Rene`

RandySmugMug

wxwax wrote:

You can't lower your ISO when shooting basketball indoors without strobes. Not if you want a decent shutter speed, that is.

sure u can
underexpose, shoot in RAW and recover EV in PP

asylumxl

are you using a uv filter or the like - cos those do look soft to me, not grainy soft, oof soft.

RandySmugMug

asylumxl wrote:

are you using a uv filter or the like - cos those do look soft to me, not grainy soft, oof soft.

i use a uv filter on every lens i own...that should not be a problem

sirsloop

I think the photos posted were overly grainly looking from sharpening added in PP. Look around the head of the foul line shooter... thats not normal iso. That what you get when you drag a heavy sharpening tool around a guys head in PS! Using neatimage should help reduce some of the ISO noise, and sharpen the photo. I was never a big fan of PS sharpening.

IMHO, you are having problems due to shutter speed. Low light simply stinks for action. With the XT... f/2.8 may not be enough! Look into using a 50/1.4 or an 85/1.8. If you are standing at the end of the court, a fixed prime should work nicely for you. That right there will double your shutter speed. Also look into another body that allows you to use iso 3200 (20d, 30d). Again, bumping up from 1600 to 3200 doubles the shutter speed. So from 1/200 you went to 1/400 with the 85/1.8, and up to 1/800 with the 20d/30d! NOW WE'RE TALKIN ACTION SPEEDS!

I shoot action A LOT and shutter speed is king. Sacrifice EVERYTHING to obtain your minimum shutter speeds. A low noise properly exposed *blurry* image is worth nothing. A high noise slightly underexposed *sharp* RAW image can be saved!! Once you have sacrificed aperture and iso.. only thing left to do is to drop the EV down until you can get a solid underexposed image.

From what I hear the XTi has an upgraded focusing system as well... which leads me to believe the XT had issues. I have both the XT and the XTi and haven't noticed any major differences in speed of AF.

As a test you could always go outside on a sunny day and shoot some kids/friends at a park playing ball. If your results are better while still using f/2.8, high iso, and like 1/3200 shutter speeds (which I think they will be), then you will know where the problem is!

Lastly...IMHO shooting bursts is for the birds. I shoot lots of horse jumping events which is pretty fast paced like BB. I track the subject in the viewfinder and wait for action to happen, one at a time. By bursting you are merely wasting memory space. After the first shot you can't see through the viewfinder so you cannot verify focus or frame the shot. Its purely spray and pray. Shoot one at a time and I bet you will see a pretty big improvement in your keeper percentage!

FatNakedGuy

RandySmugMug wrote:

i use a uv filter on every lens i own...that should not be a problem

When I first bought my 70-200 2.8IS lens, the sales guy sold me an expensive uv filter to "protect" the glass. I shot a gazillion photos with that filter on and then one day I took it off to clean the lens or whatever and forgot to put it back on. The next few concerts I shot looked a lot better to me for some reason and I finally figured out the only thing different was the missing UV filter. Call me crazy but from that point on I've never used a filter over a lens with the exception of a Kaesemann Circular Polarizer Filter.

Throw those UV filters out!! If the lens glass ever gets scratched or broken insurance covers it, right??

sirsloop

FatNakedGuy wrote:

Throw those UV filters out!! If the lens glass ever gets scratched or broken insurance covers it, right??

What kind of UV filter were you using? I think there is a big difference between plain old glass and slightly pricier HMC UV filters. On sharper lenses like the 70-200/L's you can probably see a difference between a lousy UV filter and a nice one!

RandySmugMug

FatNakedGuy wrote:

When I first bought my 70-200 2.8IS lens, the sales guy sold me an expensive uv filter to "protect" the glass. I shot a gazillion photos with that filter on and then one day I took it off to clean the lens or whatever and forgot to put it back on. The next few concerts I shot looked a lot better to me for some reason and I finally figured out the only thing different was the missing UV filter. Call me crazy but from that point on I've never used a filter over a lens with the exception of a Kaesemann Circular Polarizer Filter.

Throw those UV filters out!! If the lens glass ever gets scratched or broken insurance covers it, right??

i use hoya s-hmc's w/ no probs...it's nice to replace them every few years after they get marks on them
I'll save homeowners ins for hurricanes

sirsloop

RandySmugMug wrote:

i use hoya s-hmc's w/ no probs...it's nice to replace them every few years after they get marks on them
I'll save homeowners ins for hurricanes

same ones I use....

RandySmugMug

sirsloop wrote:

same ones I use....

i have a contact, spotlight photo, that I by direct from now, instead of ebay..great prices and always brand new...

donek

I shoot for my local paper. I use a lot of "spray and pray", but have set my camera up to function properly in that situation. I recently found something in my manual about focus lock. I shoot Nikon, but I would imagine Canon would have to offer the same thing. The camera defaults to a medium focus lock. This means that as you track a subject, it locks the focus for a period, refocuses, locks, refocuses, etc. As a result Out of 3 shots I'd have 1 in focus and the others out. By taking focus lock off, the camera continually tracks the subject and almost every shot is in focus. You can easily check to see what your camera is doing simply by pointing it at an object and walking towards it. Don't look through the lens, look at the focus ring. If the focus appears jerky, then it is locking at a certain distance for a period and anything after that lock will by out of focus. If it moves smothly as you approach your subject, focus lock is off.

I've done a fair bit of shooting with my 70-200 f2.8 indoors, but find the aperture to be inadequate without a flash even at ISO 1600. I now have a 50mm f1.4 and an 85mm f1.4. I frequently shoot at f1.8 though. Both lenses do a much better job and don't seem to need a flash at ISO 1600. Don't worry about people telling you not to use a flash because it looks bad. All that matters is getting the shot. The pros use a flash, it's just not mounted on their camera. Get yours off the camera if you can and use a bounce or a diffuser.

Just about every game I shoot is an experiment and as a result things improve. I usually shoot aperture priority outdoors to provide control over depth of field. I've tried both Aperture and shutter priority indoors with pretty miserable results. Results are all over the place and lighting appears to constantly change. I shoot in manual and every exposure looks the same. I usually look to overexpose some of the whites and any lit signs. Shoot raw until you are 100% confident in your ability to get the shot right the first time.

RandySmugMug

donek wrote:

I shoot for my local paper. I use a lot of "spray and pray", but have set my camera up to function properly in that situation. I recently found something in my manual about focus lock. I shoot Nikon, but I would imagine Canon would have to offer the same thing. The camera defaults to a medium focus lock. This means that as you track a subject, it locks the focus for a period, refocuses, locks, refocuses, etc. As a result Out of 3 shots I'd have 1 in focus and the others out. By taking focus lock off, the camera continually tracks the subject and almost every shot is in focus. You can easily check to see what your camera is doing simply by pointing it at an object and walking towards it. Don't look through the lens, look at the focus ring. If the focus appears jerky, then it is locking at a certain distance for a period and anything after that lock will by out of focus. If it moves smothly as you approach your subject, focus lock is off.

I've done a fair bit of shooting with my 70-200 f2.8 indoors, but find the aperture to be inadequate without a flash even at ISO 1600. I now have a 50mm f1.4 and an 85mm f1.4. I frequently shoot at f1.8 though. Both lenses do a much better job and don't seem to need a flash at ISO 1600. Don't worry about people telling you not to use a flash because it looks bad. All that matters is getting the shot. The pros use a flash, it's just not mounted on their camera. Get yours off the camera if you can and use a bounce or a diffuser.

Just about every game I shoot is an experiment and as a result things improve. I usually shoot aperture priority outdoors to provide control over depth of field. I've tried both Aperture and shutter priority indoors with pretty miserable results. Results are all over the place and lighting appears to constantly change. I shoot in manual and every exposure looks the same. I usually look to overexpose some of the whites and any lit signs. Shoot raw until you are 100% confident in your ability to get the shot right the first time.

i thought that's what afc was for
what cam do u use and what option did u chg ?
thx

donek

RandySmugMug wrote:

i thought that's what afc was for
what cam do u use and what option did u chg ?
thx

I shoot with a D2H and a D200. The D2H is menu option a4 (pencil icon on the left, then a for Autofocus, and a4 to disable Lock-On). The D200 is menu option a5 (the same menus, just go to a5).

I only turn focus lock off for games. I turn it back on for other shooting as it becomes a bit of a problem.

RandySmugMug

donek wrote:

I shoot with a D2H and a D200. The D2H is menu option a4 (pencil icon on the left, then a for Autofocus, and a4 to disable Lock-On). The D200 is menu option a5 (the same menus, just go to a5).

I only turn focus lock off for games. I turn it back on for other shooting as it becomes a bit of a problem.

thx Sean...mine was on 'normal' on my d200 which could explain some of my probs....I can't find a similiar function on the 30d (I wish i could since I have been missing alot lately)

donek

RandySmugMug wrote:

thx Sean...mine was on 'normal' on my d200 which could explain some of my probs....I can't find a similiar function on the 30d (I wish i could since I have been missing alot lately)

I would bet Canon calls it something else. I found this just by looking in the manual under focus to see what the difference was in dynamic and single area focus, thinking that was my problem. I read a fair bit and stumbled on this solution. I recently looked at my Sister in Law's Canon manual and found it to be pretty poor in comparison to the Nikon manuals, so it may take some hunting. I'm realy curious how this works for you as I've never seen anything else about it on the web.

hesaias

My UV is a Cokin U.V.0

I may try shooting with it off. I am having focus issues with still shots too, and that may be the issue.