I read the first chapter of the Versace book in a Barnes & Noble this weekend. I'm pretty sure he recommended setting the white point on a catch light on the woman's eye, and saying that this sort of thing was generally good practice. But of course, I could be wrong.
Yes, you are mistaken.
I don't particularly like the Threshold method of looking for B&W points. Instead, I open up a curve, slide the bottom endpoint to the right, then shift click on something important and neutral. Slide the point back to the bottom left. Then do the same with the top right point of the curve, sliding it to the left. For me, this lets me judge the picture a bit better as I do the sliding.
Duffy
I've done it both ways, and I like threshold because I believe it's more accurate. I often turn off preview if I need to find my way around.
That being said, version one of the pop tutorial did just what you said, slid the curves all the way to one end or the other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duffy Pratt I read the first chapter of the Versace book in a Barnes & Noble this weekend. I'm pretty sure he recommended setting the white point on a catch light on the woman's eye, and saying that this sort of thing was generally good practice. But of course, I could be wrong.
Yes, you are mistaken.
I went back to Barnes and Noble. On page 12 Versace says that setting the white point is different than setting the black point, because with the white point you are not looking for the first significant area of white, but instead are looking for the first pixels that are white and darker than 255,255,255. He then says, in a note on the same page, that the white point on the picture of the woman is a catchlight in her eye.
He makes a distinction between significant white and "visible" white. As I understand him, the first visible white will often be lighter than the first significant white area. I don't believe that Margulis would ever set a white point based on a catchlight in someone's eye. So I think this is a real difference in method.
I haven't read Versace's entire book, so I can't say that his approach to setting endpoints wouldn't work given his overall method. Judging from his pictures, I have to assume that his overall method does work (even though I dislike his first example with the fake lighting on the portrait). But with my knowledge, I could not use his approach to setting the white point and have as good results getting a full dynamic range and killing casts.
Duffy (p.s. I did this checking to make sure that my brain still functions, and because I'm interested in the topic, and perhaps in buying the Versace book. I'm not trying to show anyone up.)
I've worked through that tutorial. The white point is set on either her shoulder, or cheek, where the highlight is. It's not a specular highlight, just the bright part of her shoulder or cheek.
I'll read through it and see what it is you're talking about, but the tutorial definitely does not set the white point on the catchlight in her eye.
Gus, when you shft-clk it leaves a little tracking mark on your image (you can see them in the above image you posted). After, you have made your selections in threshold, then you open up curves and match the black and white droppers to the appropriate marks, lining them up until they sort of disappear and then click.....voila! (Hope I got that right...)
I don't think it's a Mac thing. Shift is shift, PC or Mac. It's Control, Option and Command that are wonky between the two.
Ok...now its time for you lot really see how little i understand of PS. At that very point i am still in whatever tool i used prior ie if i was clone stamping the previous photo then that is the tool that i have at that very moment..shift click does not bring up (i assume) an eye dropper to place over the darkest point
Gus, when you shft-clk it leaves a little tracking mark on your image (you can see them in the above image you posted). After, you have made your selections in threshold, then you open up curves and match the black and white droppers to the appropriate marks, lining them up until they sort of disappear and then click.....voila! (Hope I got that right...)
Oh, I see what might be the problem.
Follow the tutorial, setting the black and white points, cancel out of Threshold.
The little markers might disappear. Don't worry. When you open up the curves to set the black/white points with the droppers, the markers come back.
Yes, you could do it with curves, but I don't think it's as accurate, as you get all these different colors showing up in different places. I prefer the black/white of Threshold. I think it's more accurate. But you could use curves the whole way, if you wanted.
Ok...now its time for you lot really see how little i understand of PS. At that very point i am still in whatever tool i used prior ie if i was clone stamping the previous photo then that is the tool that i have at that very moment..shift click does not bring up (i assume) an eye dropper to place over the darkest point
I just tried it again, Gus. The reason I didn't tell you to be in eyedropper is that you don't need to. PS is smart enough to know that when you're in Threshold or Curves that you won't be doing any clone stamping. It changes for you.
Follow the tutorial, setting the black and white points, cancel out of Threshold.
The little markers might disappear. Don't worry. When you open up the curves to set the black/white points with the droppers, the markers come back.
Yes, you could do it with curves, but I don't think it's as accurate, as you get all these different colors showing up in different places. I prefer the black/white of Threshold. I think it's more accurate. But you could use curves the whole way, if you wanted.
Can you expound upon that? I'm a PS dummy...what is the difference if I mark it in threshold, cancel, open curves and match up the marks with the droppers? I'm lost. I probably changed a step (unintentionally) while working with this stuff...BTW...I am learning alot this week from your tut and posts regarding Versace (got his book and read part of it last night). Also.......I just this morning read your tut on masking....which I have managed to avoid like the plague...guess I will have to give it a try! I have the perfect set of shots to work with!!! All backlit at the ocean!
Can you expound upon that? I'm a PS dummy...what is the difference if I mark it in threshold, cancel, open curves and match up the marks with the droppers? I'm lost. I probably changed a step (unintentionally) while working with this stuff...BTW...I am learning alot this week from your tut and posts regarding Versace (got his book and read part of it last night). Also.......I just this morning read your tut on masking....which I have managed to avoid like the plague...guess I will have to give it a try! I have the perfect set of shots to work with!!! All backlit at the ocean!
Gus was asking if he could do the work of finding the black point in Curves, instead of Threshold. The answer is, yes, you can. Just drag one end of the curves all the way over, find your black point, then drag the other end all the way over, find your white point. My post was explaining about why I prefer my method to doing it in curves. The advantage of doing it in curves is that you're doing it in curves, so that you don't need to change from Threshold to Curves, saving a step.
Gus was asking if he could do the work of finding the black point in Curves, instead of Threshold. The answer is, yes, you can. Just drag one end of the curves all the way over, find your black point, then drag the other end all the way over, find your white point. My post was explaining about why I prefer my method to doing it in curves. The advantage of doing it in curves is that you're doing it in curves, so that you don't need to change from Threshold to Curves, saving a step.
Gottcha....and I agree. Before reading this tut, that is exactly how I was taught to do it. It definitely is not as accurate....I am getting much better results for some reason, why I don't know, but I know it's working better! Like you said, there seems to be some color casts that slip through, my photos are much cleaner looking with working through thresholds. Thanks David!
Gus was asking if he could do the work of finding the black point in Curves, instead of Threshold. The answer is, yes, you can. Just drag one end of the curves all the way over, find your black point, then drag the other end all the way over, find your white point. My post was explaining about why I prefer my method to doing it in curves. The advantage of doing it in curves is that you're doing it in curves, so that you don't need to change from Threshold to Curves, saving a step.
no no no no...i assumed it was done in curves with the little eye dropper thing a me jig. Thats where i have seen it before...i thought thats what was needed ...not the point marker to which i now know there is a difference.
no no no no...i assumed it was done in curves with the little eye dropper thing a me jig. Thats where i have seen it before...i thought thats what was needed ...not the point marker to which i now know there is a difference.
It is. Threshold just gets the spot specifically. Then you actually set it in curves.
...i was talking about getting the marker ready to use (the rifle scope thing a me bob).
you referring to the very first step in the tute? if you don't have rifle scope, you must have the eyedropper - so you have to change your preferences to precise marker (step one).
if that's not what you mean, I don't get it. as soon as you open the curves or threshold dialog box and you mouse back over your image, the tool automatically changes to the marker/dropper.
you referring to the very first step in the tute? if you don't have rifle scope, you must have the eyedropper - so you have to change your preferences to precise marker (step one).
if that's not what you mean, I don't get it. as soon as you open the curves or threshold dialog box and you mouse back over your image, the tool automatically changes to the marker/dropper.
Thats exactly what im doing..word for word however the last tool i used was the Brush Pencil with a red colour thus when i click on the blackest spot of the photo i get a bloody great red dot (which i know i can change in size) however i dont get the cross hairs with a number beside it at all.
I have followed the 'pref/cursers' direction & all is well there...its as if that particular part is not sticking...ie PS is not recognising that i have selected it.
Thats exactly what im doing..word for word however the last tool i used was the Brush Pencil with a red colour thus when i click on the blackest spot of the photo i get a bloody great red dot (which i know i can change in size) however i dont get the cross hairs with a number beside it at all.
I have followed the 'pref/cursers' direction & all is well there...its as if that particular part is not sticking...ie PS is not recognising that i have selected it.
The preferences change does not change the functionality of the cursor, just the look of it, so that it's more precise.
All fixed ..thanks Doc. I was closing the 'Thresh-hold Dialog Box' & THEN trying to put my marker on the dark spot...i wasnt aware you had to leave that open.
ok..so i did it & it did improve the photo..thanks. Now im left with a problem. I somehow got left with the photo that still has the 4 cross-hair points marked on it..and im not able to clone stamp over them. They appear to be on the photo perm
ok..so i did it & it did improve the photo..thanks. Now im left with a problem. I somehow got left with the photo that still has the 4 cross-hair points marked on it..and im not able to clone stamp over them. They appear to be on the photo perm
Whenever you're in one of those tools...threshold, curves, or if you're on the eyedropper tool, you'll want to alt-shift-click to make them go away.
Ok...any ideas as to how i get rid of those 4 markers from my jpeg now ? Clone aint toughing them.
Gus, I am just guessing here, but things like that have happened to me, too.
I learned to go in under VIEW and uncheck whatever turns on/off that thing that you don't want to see. Click on things, etc.
Smile, good luck,
ginger (not smart enough to use the keyboard as a faster method, slows me down. Plus, Mac keyboard diff. Might be Ctrl alt shift, whatever, click on a PC. Just too much to think about.
Ok...any ideas as to how i get rid of those 4 markers from my jpeg now ? Clone aint toughing them.
they'll never show up anywhere but within photoshop. do a save as or save for web if you don't believe me, and open them in your browser or some other app.
or: (1) open back up a dialogue (threshold) or (2) select the eyedropper tool and do the alt-shift-click, poof, gone!
I'm having the same experience, Gus. I go up to View and turn off click on "extras" and they disappear. Then I do "save as", and after I have saved while I'm still in the file........they come back. I just hope they are not viewable in the saved file.
I'm having the same experience, Gus. I go up to View and turn off click on "extras" and they disappear. Then I do "save as", and after I have saved while I'm still in the file........they come back. I just hope they are not viewable in the saved file.
option (or alt) shift click
I added the instructions to the tutorial.
Thanks for finding these things. It makes the tutorial better!
Yay! Some friends came over to ride this past weekend (mid to upper 70s in JANUARY). It's been raining and everythings been overcast too, expect for Saturday. Well, by the time we got back from our ride it was getting dark and I only had my Fuji FinePix with me. But I'm took some shots anyway and two that really suffered were of my friend, Sarah with the miniature donkeys. I attempted your "pop" tutorial and wowers! They still aren't great, but I can actually show them to my friends instead of immediately throwing them in the trash.
Comments
Yes, you are mistaken.
I've done it both ways, and I like threshold because I believe it's more accurate. I often turn off preview if I need to find my way around.
That being said, version one of the pop tutorial did just what you said, slid the curves all the way to one end or the other.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
He makes a distinction between significant white and "visible" white. As I understand him, the first visible white will often be lighter than the first significant white area. I don't believe that Margulis would ever set a white point based on a catchlight in someone's eye. So I think this is a real difference in method.
I haven't read Versace's entire book, so I can't say that his approach to setting endpoints wouldn't work given his overall method. Judging from his pictures, I have to assume that his overall method does work (even though I dislike his first example with the fake lighting on the portrait). But with my knowledge, I could not use his approach to setting the white point and have as good results getting a full dynamic range and killing casts.
Duffy (p.s. I did this checking to make sure that my brain still functions, and because I'm interested in the topic, and perhaps in buying the Versace book. I'm not trying to show anyone up.)
I've worked through that tutorial. The white point is set on either her shoulder, or cheek, where the highlight is. It's not a specular highlight, just the bright part of her shoulder or cheek.
I'll read through it and see what it is you're talking about, but the tutorial definitely does not set the white point on the catchlight in her eye.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
Shouldnt i be in a curves box to do this ?
I don't think it's a Mac thing. Shift is shift, PC or Mac. It's Control, Option and Command that are wonky between the two.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
Oh, I see what might be the problem.
Follow the tutorial, setting the black and white points, cancel out of Threshold.
The little markers might disappear. Don't worry. When you open up the curves to set the black/white points with the droppers, the markers come back.
Yes, you could do it with curves, but I don't think it's as accurate, as you get all these different colors showing up in different places. I prefer the black/white of Threshold. I think it's more accurate. But you could use curves the whole way, if you wanted.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
I just tried it again, Gus. The reason I didn't tell you to be in eyedropper is that you don't need to. PS is smart enough to know that when you're in Threshold or Curves that you won't be doing any clone stamping. It changes for you.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
Here, or PM.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
Can you expound upon that? I'm a PS dummy...what is the difference if I mark it in threshold, cancel, open curves and match up the marks with the droppers? I'm lost. I probably changed a step (unintentionally) while working with this stuff...BTW...I am learning alot this week from your tut and posts regarding Versace (got his book and read part of it last night). Also.......I just this morning read your tut on masking....which I have managed to avoid like the plague...guess I will have to give it a try! I have the perfect set of shots to work with!!! All backlit at the ocean!
Gus was asking if he could do the work of finding the black point in Curves, instead of Threshold. The answer is, yes, you can. Just drag one end of the curves all the way over, find your black point, then drag the other end all the way over, find your white point. My post was explaining about why I prefer my method to doing it in curves. The advantage of doing it in curves is that you're doing it in curves, so that you don't need to change from Threshold to Curves, saving a step.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
Gottcha....and I agree. Before reading this tut, that is exactly how I was taught to do it. It definitely is not as accurate....I am getting much better results for some reason, why I don't know, but I know it's working better! Like you said, there seems to be some color casts that slip through, my photos are much cleaner looking with working through thresholds. Thanks David!
It is. Threshold just gets the spot specifically. Then you actually set it in curves.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
if that's not what you mean, I don't get it. as soon as you open the curves or threshold dialog box and you mouse back over your image, the tool automatically changes to the marker/dropper.
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
I have followed the 'pref/cursers' direction & all is well there...its as if that particular part is not sticking...ie PS is not recognising that i have selected it.
The preferences change does not change the functionality of the cursor, just the look of it, so that it's more precise.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
Whenever you're in one of those tools...threshold, curves, or if you're on the eyedropper tool, you'll want to alt-shift-click to make them go away.
I'll have to add that to the tute.
Thanks.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
Gus, I am just guessing here, but things like that have happened to me, too.
I learned to go in under VIEW and uncheck whatever turns on/off that thing that you don't want to see. Click on things, etc.
Smile, good luck,
ginger (not smart enough to use the keyboard as a faster method, slows me down. Plus, Mac keyboard diff. Might be Ctrl alt shift, whatever, click on a PC. Just too much to think about.
or: (1) open back up a dialogue (threshold) or (2) select the eyedropper tool and do the alt-shift-click, poof, gone!
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
option (or alt) shift click
I added the instructions to the tutorial.
Thanks for finding these things. It makes the tutorial better!
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
Thanks David!!
SmugMug Support Specialist - www.help.smugmug.com
http://www.phyxiusphotos.com
Equine Photography in Maryland - Dressage, Eventing, Hunters, Jumpers
If that isn't just the perfect pair of shots to show of what the POP tutorial can do...!
Nice job!
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
Having tried the tutorial I guess that it was written for Photoshop as opposed to photoshop elements.
Anyone know of a similar tutorial for elements??
Tim