I moved your post to this thread, so it's all in one place. And maybe someone with the same question will see your post!
As for the answer, I'm working on it.
I hate it when you do that................................I spent hours thinking I'm dreaming scratch
It was only after I posted I found this thread.....................yes I know get your eye tested!!
DaveV
I had a quick look, and will have a play with the details tomorrow.
A quick question, if I have posted a picture which suggestions have been made on where should I post the updated picture?? Here or in the thread in question, I'm thinking that I will probably want some more instructions after my first play.
A Quick question Davev, what format is the picture in when you open it in elements, is the picture in raw format? if so do you do any major tweaks to picture pre elements or it just as it came of the camera?
A Quick question Davev, what format is the picture in when you open it in elements, is the picture in raw format? if so do you do any major tweaks to picture pre elements or it just as it came of the camera?
Tim
I shoot in jpg mode, so I don't have to convert a RAW file before hand.
Remember, this is just to get the colors to POP a little. There are other things that I do to a shot.
Things like USM (unsharpen mask) maybe add or remove some of the saturation, resizing, etc.
My little tute is just to help you get the basics. The best thing you can do is to work on a few shots and see what you come up with.
It took me a long time to learn how to get my shots to look OK.
Don't expect to learn it all over night.
BTW, what version of Elements are you using?
That info helps others help you.
I shoot in jpg mode, so I don't have to convert a RAW file before hand.
Remember, this is just to get the colors to POP a little. There are other things that I do to a shot.
Things like USM (unsharpen mask) maybe add or remove some of the saturation, resizing, etc.
My little tute is just to help you get the basics. The best thing you can do is to work on a few shots and see what you come up with.
It took me a long time to learn how to get my shots to look OK.
Don't expect to learn it all over night.
BTW, what version of Elements are you using?
That info helps others help you.
Hi Dave
Thanks for the reply
(In reverse order)
I have Elements v5
If I could learn to do it over night it would not be worth doing.
I was planning of having a tweak tonight but I unfortunately I am still working (waiting for a bug scan to finish on a Laptop at the moment which has to be cured by tomorrow morning). While I have tweaked some of my pictures I am probably being a little heavy handed, I need that little bit of knowledge to get me going so that I can start learning how to do it properly.
Hi, I am trying the tutorial, I have CS2, however when i get to the layers>new adust>curves my window doesnt give me a chance to change the values to 777 or 247. I dont get the same window. What am I doing wrong...lol
Hi, I am trying the tutorial, I have CS2, however when i get to the layers>new adust>curves my window doesnt give me a chance to change the values to 777 or 247. I dont get the same window. What am I doing wrong...lol
Thanks in advance for your help.
You have to double-click on the tool that you want to change the default setting for. So, if you were to double-click on the black eyedropper, you could then enter 777.
Awesome, thanks to both of you. I am so clueless. I am franticly scouring the internet to just get myself up to par with the simplest of CS2 stuff. I am starting from practically scratch with very little vocab too. I am so determined to learn though.....there is so much to learn and a lot of it I can learn here, so thank you sooooo much!
Awesome, thanks to both of you. I am so clueless. I am franticly scouring the internet to just get myself up to par with the simplest of CS2 stuff. I am starting from practically scratch with very little vocab too. I am so determined to learn though.....there is so much to learn and a lot of it I can learn here, so thank you sooooo much!
I'm in the same boat, not only for PS but also for LR. Check this out:
It costs a modest amount of money (you can subscribe on a monthly or an annual basis), but provides wealth of information running the gamut from absolute beginner to seasoned expert, with new stuff being added all the time. And the people who create the tutorials are al the big names in the Photoshop universe. I really like it and consider it to be a great value.
I've reworked the POP tutorial, take a look at it here.
And use this thread for any discussion or questions!
I tried the POP Tutorial, but when I set my black points, the photo took on red color cast, and then when I set my white point, the photo took on garrish purple color cast. What have I done wrong?
It's hard to say exactly without seeing the original and the adjustment.
If you want to adjust the black and white points to increase contrast, while holding colors fixed, then set the adjustment layer to luminosity. That might do the trick for you.
I tried the POP Tutorial, but when I set my black points, the photo took on red color cast, and then when I set my white point, the photo took on garrish purple color cast. What have I done wrong?
I would suggest that the points you chose for your black and white points were not destined to be a neutral B&W, but were a dark or light color, and this threw off your color balance. You must use dark and light areas that you know should be neutral for your B&W points.
One way is to use the Threshold command in the LAYERS palette, and use the slider to identify the darkest important areas and the lightest white areas in your image to set your points. That is how I do it. Be careful not to use specular highlights also - they are way out of gamut and may not be truly white either.
I would suggest that the points you chose for your black and white points were not neutral B&W, but were a dark or light color, and this threw off your color balance. You must use neutral dark and light areas for your B&W points.
One way is to use the Threshold command in the LAYERS palette, and use the slider to identify the darkest and lightest areas in your image to set your points. That is how I do it. Be careful not to use specular highlights also - they are way out of gamut and may not be truly white either.
Not exactly true, as the setting of the points will force them to neutral, but they don't necessarily start out as neutral. That's how it removes a cast from your image. You want to select points that SHOULD BE neutral.
I agree with "should be neutral", because - if you select points that are not neutral, and should not be made neutral, then you will make the color balance much worse using that point, will you not?
I use the Image Threshold command just like in your tutorial, and search for a good dark are that should be black - ok - I just called it black because that is what setting a Black point does - it DEFINES what is going to be black in the image. Same for a white point.
I agree with "should be neutral", because - if you select points that are not neutral, and should not be made neutral, then you will make the color balance much worse using that point, will you not?
I use the Image Threshold command just like in your tutorial, and search for a good dark are that should be black - ok - I just called it black because that is what setting a Black point does - it DEFINES what is going to be black in the image. Same for a white point.
Right. But the point you select could easily be 7, 13, 9, and once you click it could be 7,7,7 and eliminate the cast that was evident in the shadows, and which affect the entire image.
Right. But the point you select could easily be 7, 13, 9, and once you click it could be 7,7,7 and eliminate the cast that was evident in the shadows, and which affect the entire image.
This leads into cast correction methods that are way beyond what you cover in your tutorial (which is great, by the way). Margulis in his latest videos is advocating RGB curves in Color mode (or maybe Normal mode, depending on how they come out) to get the various parts of the image right color-wise. So far, seems to work well for me. The video on the subject more directly relevant to the discussion here (part 2 of the workflow) isn't yet available.
But in any event, his techniques are more advanced that what you've presented. I agree with andy's comment (way back in the thread) that just doing this will make a huge difference to most photos. I've always used curves explicitly to the the black and white points correct, and it hasn't been hard to correct a "white" point that's was actually, say, yellow. You just set the numbers more yellow (less Blue, or more Y, depending on where you're working).
David -- You have put a tremendous amount of work into this and the results that folks are achieving speak for themselves. But I'm not gonna understand CS3 anytime soon, if ever (it's #3 on the list behind understanding photography and understanding LR). Is there a quick and dirty translation to LR?
David -- You have put a tremendous amount of work into this and the results that folks are achieving speak for themselves. But I'm not gonna understand CS3 anytime soon, if ever (it's #3 on the list behind understanding photography and understanding LR). Is there a quick and dirty translation to LR?
I have ACR. not LR, but I understand that they work basically the same.
The quick and dirty translation is as follows.
Turn both highlight and shadow clipping on.
To set the white point, move the exposure to the point where the significant highlight clips, then back off a tad so that it no longer clips. (You can refine this some by using the recovery slider).
To set the black point, move the black (or is it called darkness) slider, its the fourth one down, until the significant shadow clips, and then back off from it so that its not clipping anymore. (You can refine this a bit with the fill slider, to restore shadows that have clipped. This is a less subtle tool than the recovery slider, in my experience).
The curve setting you can do exactly the same as in the pop tutorial.
In general, if you just use the sliders in the first tab, and the curve tab, you have more ability to make these sort of "pop" adjustments than what has been described in this tutorial.
I have ACR. not LR, but I understand that they work basically the same.
The quick and dirty translation is as follows.
Turn both highlight and shadow clipping on.
To set the white point, move the exposure to the point where the significant highlight clips, then back off a tad so that it no longer clips. (You can refine this some by using the recovery slider).
To set the black point, move the black (or is it called darkness) slider, its the fourth one down, until the significant shadow clips, and then back off from it so that its not clipping anymore. (You can refine this a bit with the fill slider, to restore shadows that have clipped. This is a less subtle tool than the recovery slider, in my experience).
The curve setting you can do exactly the same as in the pop tutorial.
In general, if you just use the sliders in the first tab, and the curve tab, you have more ability to make these sort of "pop" adjustments than what has been described in this tutorial.
Duffy
This is not the same, it's close, but it does not neutralize the black and white points as the tutorial does.
I have ACR. not LR, but I understand that they work basically the same.
The quick and dirty translation is as follows.
Turn both highlight and shadow clipping on.
To set the white point, move the exposure to the point where the significant highlight clips, then back off a tad so that it no longer clips. (You can refine this some by using the recovery slider).
To set the black point, move the black (or is it called darkness) slider, its the fourth one down, until the significant shadow clips, and then back off from it so that its not clipping anymore. (You can refine this a bit with the fill slider, to restore shadows that have clipped. This is a less subtle tool than the recovery slider, in my experience).
The curve setting you can do exactly the same as in the pop tutorial.
In general, if you just use the sliders in the first tab, and the curve tab, you have more ability to make these sort of "pop" adjustments than what has been described in this tutorial.
Duffy
Well whatdya know -- that's what I do! Thanks -- validation is not unimportant.
Late Novice Question
I'm really new to PS CS3. I'm familar with the steps noted here. Question: It seems to me that most images will have a black point. What do you do if there's no white pt in you shot?
I'm really new to PS CS3. I'm familar with the steps noted here. Question: It seems to me that most images will have a black point. What do you do if there's no white pt in you shot?
~ Thanks ~
What you're looking for is the brightest significant point in the image (as in the tutorial). Not necessarily the brightest spot. If it isn't neutral, then the technique described in the tutorial doesn't work, and you have to use some other technique to set it to an appropriate value (curves work here). It would require a tutorial on the order of the original post to show how exactly to do this.
Reference: Pop Tutorial – New & Improved (May 2004) Reference: Pop Tutorial – New & Improved (May 2004)
Question: What do you use as a white point when there’s no specific “white” in your image? (See my photo.)
I’ve been putting in a few months of study with various PS CS3 workbooks. Now I’m trying to apply what I’ve learned to my images. Naturally, there’s a big gap between the images used in the workbook and my images. Questions begin streaming…
I’m familiar with the process used in the Pop Tutorial since it’s the same I practiced with CS3 workbooks. As in the workbooks, the photo used in the Pop Tutorial has a clear dark shadow area (or black target) and a white spot/target.
In my photo, the black target was with the bee. Works great when I go to color correct in curves. But the process doesn’t work (for me) for finding a white target that works. Oh, the shadow & highlight colors were set (As suggested in Pop Tutorial) with the Color Picker. If I try a highlighted target that is non-white in my photo, it simply doesn’t work inside Curves.
Is the solution within Color Picker? Does one have to set a different highlight color as close to the best highlight color in the photo?
Comments
I moved your post to this thread, so it's all in one place. And maybe someone with the same question will see your post!
As for the answer, I'm working on it.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
http://davev.smugmug.com/gallery/2324800
Basking in the shadows of yesterday's triumphs'.
I hate it when you do that................................I spent hours thinking I'm dreaming
It was only after I posted I found this thread.....................yes I know get your eye tested!!
DaveV
I had a quick look, and will have a play with the details tomorrow.
A quick question, if I have posted a picture which suggestions have been made on where should I post the updated picture?? Here or in the thread in question, I'm thinking that I will probably want some more instructions after my first play.
Tim
Photos that don't suck / 365 / Film & Lomography
Sleep is optional, right?
Pictures | Website | Blog | Twitter | Contact
A Quick question Davev, what format is the picture in when you open it in elements, is the picture in raw format? if so do you do any major tweaks to picture pre elements or it just as it came of the camera?
Tim
I shoot in jpg mode, so I don't have to convert a RAW file before hand.
Remember, this is just to get the colors to POP a little. There are other things that I do to a shot.
Things like USM (unsharpen mask) maybe add or remove some of the saturation, resizing, etc.
My little tute is just to help you get the basics. The best thing you can do is to work on a few shots and see what you come up with.
It took me a long time to learn how to get my shots to look OK.
Don't expect to learn it all over night.
BTW, what version of Elements are you using?
That info helps others help you.
Basking in the shadows of yesterday's triumphs'.
Hi Dave
Thanks for the reply
(In reverse order)
I have Elements v5
If I could learn to do it over night it would not be worth doing.
I was planning of having a tweak tonight but I unfortunately I am still working (waiting for a bug scan to finish on a Laptop at the moment which has to be cured by tomorrow morning). While I have tweaked some of my pictures I am probably being a little heavy handed, I need that little bit of knowledge to get me going so that I can start learning how to do it properly.
Tim
Thanks in advance for your help.
Canon Stuff
www.craftgirlcreations.smugmug.com
You have to double-click on the tool that you want to change the default setting for. So, if you were to double-click on the black eyedropper, you could then enter 777.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
To do the same thing you did above just on the keyboard:
CTRL + J (copy layer)
CTRL + M (curves dialog box)
(Substitute CMD for CTRL on a Mac)
-Jon
Canon Stuff
www.craftgirlcreations.smugmug.com
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=80198
You may as well get started on the right foot! You'll find shortucts to be a HUGE timesaver.
http://www.kelbytraining.com/online/all-classes.html
It costs a modest amount of money (you can subscribe on a monthly or an annual basis), but provides wealth of information running the gamut from absolute beginner to seasoned expert, with new stuff being added all the time. And the people who create the tutorials are al the big names in the Photoshop universe. I really like it and consider it to be a great value.
__________________
www.browngreensports.com
http://browngreensports.smugmug.com
Canon Stuff
www.craftgirlcreations.smugmug.com
I tried the POP Tutorial, but when I set my black points, the photo took on red color cast, and then when I set my white point, the photo took on garrish purple color cast. What have I done wrong?
If you want to adjust the black and white points to increase contrast, while holding colors fixed, then set the adjustment layer to luminosity. That might do the trick for you.
Duffy
I would suggest that the points you chose for your black and white points were not destined to be a neutral B&W, but were a dark or light color, and this threw off your color balance. You must use dark and light areas that you know should be neutral for your B&W points.
One way is to use the Threshold command in the LAYERS palette, and use the slider to identify the darkest important areas and the lightest white areas in your image to set your points. That is how I do it. Be careful not to use specular highlights also - they are way out of gamut and may not be truly white either.
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Not exactly true, as the setting of the points will force them to neutral, but they don't necessarily start out as neutral. That's how it removes a cast from your image. You want to select points that SHOULD BE neutral.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
I agree with "should be neutral", because - if you select points that are not neutral, and should not be made neutral, then you will make the color balance much worse using that point, will you not?
I use the Image Threshold command just like in your tutorial, and search for a good dark are that should be black - ok - I just called it black because that is what setting a Black point does - it DEFINES what is going to be black in the image. Same for a white point.
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Right. But the point you select could easily be 7, 13, 9, and once you click it could be 7,7,7 and eliminate the cast that was evident in the shadows, and which affect the entire image.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
But in any event, his techniques are more advanced that what you've presented. I agree with andy's comment (way back in the thread) that just doing this will make a huge difference to most photos. I've always used curves explicitly to the the black and white points correct, and it hasn't been hard to correct a "white" point that's was actually, say, yellow. You just set the numbers more yellow (less Blue, or more Y, depending on where you're working).
__________________
www.browngreensports.com
http://browngreensports.smugmug.com
I have ACR. not LR, but I understand that they work basically the same.
The quick and dirty translation is as follows.
Turn both highlight and shadow clipping on.
To set the white point, move the exposure to the point where the significant highlight clips, then back off a tad so that it no longer clips. (You can refine this some by using the recovery slider).
To set the black point, move the black (or is it called darkness) slider, its the fourth one down, until the significant shadow clips, and then back off from it so that its not clipping anymore. (You can refine this a bit with the fill slider, to restore shadows that have clipped. This is a less subtle tool than the recovery slider, in my experience).
The curve setting you can do exactly the same as in the pop tutorial.
In general, if you just use the sliders in the first tab, and the curve tab, you have more ability to make these sort of "pop" adjustments than what has been described in this tutorial.
Duffy
This is not the same, it's close, but it does not neutralize the black and white points as the tutorial does.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
__________________
www.browngreensports.com
http://browngreensports.smugmug.com
I'm really new to PS CS3. I'm familar with the steps noted here. Question: It seems to me that most images will have a black point. What do you do if there's no white pt in you shot?
~ Thanks ~
Reference: Pop Tutorial – New & Improved (May 2004)
Question: What do you use as a white point when there’s no specific “white” in your image? (See my photo.)
I’ve been putting in a few months of study with various PS CS3 workbooks. Now I’m trying to apply what I’ve learned to my images. Naturally, there’s a big gap between the images used in the workbook and my images. Questions begin streaming…
I’m familiar with the process used in the Pop Tutorial since it’s the same I practiced with CS3 workbooks. As in the workbooks, the photo used in the Pop Tutorial has a clear dark shadow area (or black target) and a white spot/target.
In my photo, the black target was with the bee. Works great when I go to color correct in curves. But the process doesn’t work (for me) for finding a white target that works. Oh, the shadow & highlight colors were set (As suggested in Pop Tutorial) with the Color Picker. If I try a highlighted target that is non-white in my photo, it simply doesn’t work inside Curves.
Is the solution within Color Picker? Does one have to set a different highlight color as close to the best highlight color in the photo?
Thanks!