Racially profiled while shooting...

gmonkeh

I had the weirdest and most uncomfortable thing happen to me just a few hours ago. I just recently moved to Bremerton, WA and so far it's been pretty nice, I like the quiet.

I had some free time today so I decided to go to the Bremerton Marina to do some street shooting. I was walking around for an hour or so when I noticed a couple of bicycle cops eyeing me. I was shooting random subjects mind you and I didn't even take any pictures of them. It started raining and I was getting hungry so I decided to walk back to my car.

I get in and I notice the 2 cops riding towards me, they knocked on my window and the interrogation began. He asked me what I was doing (umm being I had a pretty good size camera with an 80-200 lens and pointing it at things I had to refrain from saying yoga, and the camera just helps me relax.)

He took my license and registration, and ran a check on the spot. I asked him if photography wasn't allowed in the marina and I tried to give him my business card but he got a little "hissy" at me. I calmly explained that I was a photographer (hence the fancy camera) and that I was just out and about taking a few shots.

I'm thinking they saw me taking shots of the ferry coming in to dock, but the thing is I wasnt the only one taking pictures there. It just happened I was the only non-caucasian taking pictures.

I've lived here for 10+ years and never have I experienced anything like that until now. First I had to laugh at the situation but then realized I just got singled out because my skin color wasn't what it was supposed to be.

:scratch :huh :scratch :huh

colourbox

You should talk to this guy. Circumstances and location eerily similar.

Skippy

gmonkeh wrote:

I had the weirdest and most uncomfortable thing happen to me just a few hours ago. I just recently moved to Bremerton, WA and so far it's been pretty nice, I like the quiet.

I had some free time today so I decided to go to the Bremerton Marina to do some street shooting. I was walking around for an hour or so when I noticed a couple of bicycle cops eyeing me. I was shooting random subjects mind you and I didn't even take any pictures of them. It started raining and I was getting hungry so I decided to walk back to my car.

I get in and I notice the 2 cops riding towards me, they knocked on my window and the interrogation began. He asked me what I was doing (umm being I had a pretty good size camera with an 80-200 lens and pointing it at things I had to refrain from saying yoga, and the camera just helps me relax.)

He took my license and registration, and ran a check on the spot. I asked him if photography wasn't allowed in the marina and I tried to give him my business card but he got a little "hissy" at me. I calmly explained that I was a photographer (hence the fancy camera) and that I was just out and about taking a few shots.

I'm thinking they saw me taking shots of the ferry coming in to dock, but the thing is I wasnt the only one taking pictures there. It just happened I was the only non-caucasian taking pictures.

I've lived here for 10+ years and never have I experienced anything like that until now. First I had to laugh at the situation but then realized I just got singled out because my skin color wasn't what it was supposed to be.

Unfortunaetly Racism is alive and well in many countries not just USA.
I'm sorry this has happened to you, and I hope it doesn't happen again.

I think its just so stupid when we have Google Earth to clearly show any Terrorist whatever part of the world they want a closer look at,
all compliments of which country ??? ....go figure .... Skippy
.

Nir

i too am sorry you had to go through that experience although you needn't take it so harshly.
the police are doing their job and since 9-11 they've become much more aware and sensitive to public behavior. the u.s. public has suddenly learned that violence can come from within and they're trying to cope.

i don't think it has to do with racism. you were probably the most prominent photographer in the area (with the big lens) - take it as a compliment.

here in israel i've encountered 'sensitivity' from security personnel often (blogged). i understand their actions. i thank them for doing their job which often puts them in the front lines battling suicide bombers and other terrorists. many have lost their lives, the first to obstruct the shock wave and shrapnel, while protecting others.

bsvirginian

Good points NIR. We in the USA would rather take afront and complain about our rights being infringed upon than stop to realize that maybe the authorities are just reacting and doing their jobs. We haven't arrived to the point that Isreal has. And pray that we don't. bsvirginian:cry

Angelo

<DT>Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. </DT><DD class=author>Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759


http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0515-22.htm
</DD>

wxwax

G, I obviously can't speculate on the specifics of your experience.

But I've found that I get hassled almost all the time when I shoot on public streets these days. If it's not cops, it's security guards. There's a level of paranoia that's amazing.

And transportation facilities that aren't obvious tourist destinations are where I'm least welcome. Just try shooting the outside of a local MARTA (subway) station here. Fuggedaboutit.

Not saying it wasn't profiling. Just saying that this white boy has no trouble at all getting the attention of the man.

photodoug

It's a good thing that our security interests do their job better than before, so let's stop being so darned sensitive about being asked about our intentions when we're so obviously taking lots of seemingly random shots in prominent public places. We stick out and draw attention to ourselves. Deal with it.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I sensed a bit of smart-alekness in your post. Your bike-friends probably noticed it too. Surely not the best way to deal with real cops. Lots of yessir and nosir are the only recommended replies.

I would have worked hard to develop a relationship with those beat-cops so that future endeavors in that part of town would go without indident in the future.

kdog

photodoug wrote:

It's a good thing that our security interests do their job better than before, so let's stop being so darned sensitive about being asked about our intentions when we're so obviously taking lots of seemingly random shots in prominent public places. We stick out and draw attention to ourselves. Deal with it.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I sensed a bit of smart-alekness in your post. Your bike-friends probably noticed it too. Surely not the best way to deal with real cops. Lots of yessir and nosir are the only recommended replies.

I would have worked hard to develop a relationship with those beat-cops so that future endeavors in that part of town would go without indident in the future.

gmonkeh

photodoug wrote:

It's a good thing that our security interests do their job better than before, so let's stop being so darned sensitive about being asked about our intentions when we're so obviously taking lots of seemingly random shots in prominent public places. We stick out and draw attention to ourselves. Deal with it.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I sensed a bit of smart-alekness in your post. Your bike-friends probably noticed it too. Surely not the best way to deal with real cops. Lots of yessir and nosir are the only recommended replies.

I would have worked hard to develop a relationship with those beat-cops so that future endeavors in that part of town would go without indident in the future.

You know it's really starting to rub me that people keep saying stop being sensitive and get over it. I'm not complaining that the cops we're doing their jobs. It's the manner they chose to do it.

If you read my post I was fully cooperative, I wasn't being a smart ass with the cops. You think I'm that much of a d-d-d-dumbass to tell a cop with an already hostile attitude towards me "heeere's your sign!".

Like I said it's easy to say let it go when you're the spectator.

kdog

First it was racial profiling. Now it's the cop's attitude. And yet, going by your original post, the trouble began when you started asking the questions. Read what Doug said again. When stopped, your only responses are yessir, nosssir, and answering direct questions. That doesn't include trying to put the cop on the spot by asking leading questions like, "Isn't photography allowed at the marina?" It is clear that question was intended to put the cop on the spot. If the cop had answered "yes", you would have challenged that assertion by asking for the legal basis, or possibly try to cause trouble by challenging that assertion later if you thought it was incorrect. If he had answered "no", you would have said "why me?", which is essentially throwing down the race card.

A beat cop's job is pattern matching. They're looking for anything that's a bit out of the ordinary, and in this case it turned out to be you. I'll bet everyone in this forum has a story like this. Here's one of mine.

One day I purchased a new set of binoculars at a camera store, then stopped at the supermarket on my way home. I bought groceries, loaded them into my car, then noticed I had a nice view of a mountain top from the parking lot. Sitting in my car, I rolled down the window and tried out my new binocs. A cop came over, knocked on the window, and did the same bit as your cops to the letter. License, registration, "what are you doing?". I answered it, even though I was probably just as annoyed for getting hassled at the time as you were.

So it happens to all of us. Get over it. And get over people telling you to get over it.

Regards,
-joel

mmroden

gmonkeh wrote:

You know it's really starting to rub me that people keep saying stop being sensitive and get over it. I'm not complaining that the cops we're doing their jobs. It's the manner they chose to do it.

If you read my post I was fully cooperative, I wasn't being a smart ass with the cops. You think I'm that much of a d-d-d-dumbass to tell a cop with an already hostile attitude towards me "heeere's your sign!".

Like I said it's easy to say let it go when you're the spectator.

I completely agree.

It's these little ideas called 'probable cause' that get stuck in people's craw. If having a camera makes someone have 'probable cause', then there's a host of other activities that might fall under that category.

What about drinking water? Do you know how easy it would be to make a chemical bomb with the ingredients in two different water bottles? Should anyone with two water bottles be stopped, because one might contain bleach and the other ammonia? Chemical engineers call this the 'green genie'-- put it near some air intake vents without the proper filtering, and all of a sudden you have a building full of very sick people.

Or what about jars of honey? Honey has an x-ray attenuation factor very similar to plastique, and so can be used to smuggle explosives on to a plane, if you know what you're doing. Should stores that carry honey be required to track all honey sales?

What about ceramics? These things completely bypass all security measures short of a pat down, and even then, a cleverly concealed ceramic or glass knife can be brought on board a plane.

People who have every intention of doing harm can come up with the means to do so, regardless of the security measures in place. We live in such a culture of fear nowadays, the real threats are often ignored for the ones that are easy to spot but may not, in fact, be real. Case in point, photographers near a metro stop. It's not like you can't just go down to city hall and get the plans for that or any other building, but harassing photographers is easy to do, and makes the cops feel like they're accomplishing something. Real policework is hard to do, and I don't pretend to know how to do it; but pissing off the very people who might be willing to give you photographic evidence later seems counterproductive to me.

RustingInPeace

When you tolerate invasive government you encourage it

kdog wrote:

First it was racial profiling. Now it's the cop's attitude. And yet, going by your original post, the trouble began when you started asking the questions. Read what Doug said again. When stopped, your only responses are yessir, nosssir, and answering direct questions. That doesn't include trying to put the cop on the spot by asking leading questions like, "Isn't photography allowed at the marina?" It is clear that question was intended to put the cop on the spot. If the cop had answered "yes", you would have challenged that assertion by asking for the legal basis, or possibly try to cause trouble by challenging that assertion later if you thought it was incorrect. If he had answered "no", you would have said "why me?", which is essentially throwing down the race card.

A beat cop's job is pattern matching. They're looking for anything that's a bit out of the ordinary, and in this case it turned out to be you. I'll bet everyone in this forum has a story like this. Here's one of mine.

One day I purchased a new set of binoculars at a camera store, then stopped at the supermarket on my way home. I bought groceries, loaded them into my car, then noticed I had a nice view of a mountain top from the parking lot. Sitting in my car, I rolled down the window and tried out my new binocs. A cop came over, knocked on the window, and did the same bit as your cops to the letter. License, registration, "what are you doing?". I answered it, even though I was probably just as annoyed for getting hassled at the time as you were.

So it happens to all of us. Get over it. And get over people telling you to get over it.

Regards,
-joel

That fact is, it should not happen to all of us! The police are so used to violating people's rights because we let them. The general public is just numb to this type of behavior. I simply won't cooperate with the police when they behave inappropriately. Especially when the Gestapo tactics get played (I love it when bring in 6 armed guys and try to stand right on top of you. A common intimidation tactic). I live in America not France, Brittan, or Germany. I will not be tread upon by my government. A law abiding citizen should not be made to fear his government.

Why should a person not put the cop on the spot by asking some questions? The officer should be able to defend his actions (if he is acting within the law and department policy). It is when agents of the government are acting outside the law & policy that a citizen's question becomes threatening.

God forbid a person asserts his rights! It is often more "painful" not to cooperate but asserting your rights is essential to maintaining them. 9/11 is not an excuse for the government to wipe their feet on our constitution . When you tolerate invasive government you encourage it.

When the heavy hand of government pushes, PUSH BACK!

davev

I can't believe that anyone feels that what happened is OK.

gmonkeh wasn't the only one taking pictures, but he was the only one followed and questioned. This isn't right, and you know it.

gus

I have a friend whom uses the opening line if he is approached,

"..good morning gentlemen my name is **** & this conversation is currently being recorded on my mobile (cell) phone "

He says it helps keep the peace.

Seamus

gus wrote:

I have a friend whom uses the opening line if he is approached,

"..good morning gentlemen my name is **** & this conversation is currently being recorded on my mobile (cell) phone "

He says it helps keep the peace.

but I bet he has never talked his way out of a speeding ticket

gus

Seamus wrote:

but I bet he has never talked his way out of a speeding ticket

Nup...he takes it on the chin as i do also. More chance of getting a footy ref to change his mind i recon & we all know that just does not happen.

I dont get this problem mentioned as the coppers here all know the 'big bald bastard' walking about the city with all the cameras singing to himself.

kdog

davev wrote:

I can't believe that anyone feels that what happened is OK.

gmonkeh wasn't the only one taking pictures, but he was the only one followed and questioned. This isn't right, and you know it.

Wrong. We have no idea why the cops picked him out as being suspicious and questioned him. I'm not naive enough to think that not one, but two cops, in this age of racial sensitivity, decided to single out one person soley because of race.

I find it interesting how many people here are willing to try and convict the cops involved without hearing their side of the story. There are countless reasons why gmonkeh may have gotten their attention. It could have been his equipment, something I personally doubt. It may have been his focus of attention, which is more likely. Even more likely is the possibility that they received a complaint. Maybe an overly protective mom thought she saw him taking pictures of her kid.

Or perhaps one of these people didn't appreciate their picture being taken by a stranger and complained to the cops. You folks would be the same people to convict the cops if a black woman complained here that a stranger was stalking their child and the cops wouldn't even go talk to the alleged stalker. You can't have it both ways.

There are two sides to every story, my friend.

Regards,
-joel

gus

**************************

Guys as much as this matter is important to discuss i will ask that you all keep your posts amicable or i will hit a button or 2.

Thankyou

**************************

Seamus

gus wrote:

Nup...he takes it on the chin as i do also. More chance of getting a footy ref to change his mind i recon & we all know that just does not happen.

I dont get this problem mentioned as the coppers here all know the 'big bald bastard' walking about the city with all the cameras singing to himself.

'big bald bastard' a friend of mine is joining the police in Perth. He told me that discretion is non-existent there. It is disappearing rapidly here also, which is a pity. There is a real problem with road deaths here and speeding is one of the causes. We even have penalty points now :soapbox .

davev

kdog wrote:

Wrong. We have no idea why the cops picked him out as being suspicious and questioned him. I'm not naive enough to think that not one, but two cops, in this age of racial sensitivity, decided to single out one person soley because of race.

I find it interesting how many people here are willing to try and convict the cops involved without hearing their side of the story. There are countless reasons why gmonkeh may have gotten their attention. It could have been his equipment, something I personally doubt. It may have been his focus of attention, which is more likely. Even more likely is the possibility that they received a complaint. Maybe an overly protective mom thought she saw him taking pictures of her kid.

Or perhaps one of these people didn't appreciate their picture being taken by a stranger and complained to the cops. You folks would be the same people to convict the cops if a black woman complained here that a stranger was stalking their child and the cops wouldn't even go talk to the alleged stalker. You can't have it both ways.

There are two sides to every story, my friend.

Regards,
-joel

Or perhaps it happened exactly the way gmonkeh said. Ever think of that?

In the 50's it was communism, in the 2000's it's terrorism, in 50 more years it will be an Alien attack.
With the government (and media) we have right now, (in the US) they like to keep us scared about some kind of impending doom.
I drive by the airport and there's a sign to call 911 if you see something out of the ordinary.
Our warning scale is at the second highest level. WHY? Nothing has happened in 5 years. Maybe we need to add a few more colors to scale.
I'm guessing all out war would be at the top. I don't really feel that we're one step away from it.
Now I'll get some news reports of a threat that was broken up. Unless they found the group by following a photographer to the hideout, it doesn't apply.

Paranoia strikes deep. Into your mind it will creep ........

And don't call me your friend. That's reserved for people that I speak to face to face.

Angelo

If a cop stops me and asks for identification I will always ask for a reason. That is my right!!!

thebigsky

photodoug wrote:

It's a good thing that our security interests do their job better than before, so let's stop being so darned sensitive about being asked about our intentions when we're so obviously taking lots of seemingly random shots in prominent public places. We stick out and draw attention to ourselves. Deal with it.

What a thoroughly sad and depressing attitude.

Charlie

kdog

davev wrote:

Or perhaps it happened exactly the way gmonkeh said. Ever think of that?

Yes, I did. But you are completely missing the point. The point is that gmonkeh can't possibly know the motives of the cop, and whether they received a complaint from a suspicious person, or whether they themselves became suspicious. And here he is, screaming "racism" in a crowded internet forum.

It is a fact that gmonkeh was hanging around a public area and shooting random peoples pictures with a telephoto lens. He's shown us the pictures. Think about it. He's in a crowded area with a telephoto lens shooting people and trying to be as discreet as possible. It's almost impossible not to look suspicious doing this! Some mother complains, possibly the one holding the kid in gmonkeh's other post, and the cops tell her they'll check it out. Now, they know it's not against the law to shoot a random kid on the street unless that person is a registered pedophile. So they follow gmonkeh to his car, ask for his pedigree and check the pedophile database. He's not there, so they let him go. They go back to the woman who complained and tell her "he's not a known pedophile and wasn't doing anything wrong". The woman leaves in a huff.

But again, the point is that gmonkeh can't possibly know whether or not this scenario occured. And yet he has the nerve to rant in a public forum that he's been "Racially Profiled" by the PD! That's about as nasty an accusation as you can hurl at somebody, especially with no proof.

In the 50's it was communism, in the 2000's it's terrorism, in 50 more years it will be an Alien attack.
With the government (and media) we have right now, (in the US) they like to keep us scared about some kind of impending doom.
I drive by the airport and there's a sign to call 911 if you see something out of the ordinary.
Our warning scale is at the second highest level. WHY? Nothing has happened in 5 years. Maybe we need to add a few more colors to scale.
I'm guessing all out war would be at the top. I don't really feel that we're one step away from it.
Now I'll get some news reports of a threat that was broken up. Unless they found the group by following a photographer to the hideout, it doesn't apply.

Paranoia strikes deep. Into your mind it will creep ........

You've lost me here. He said "2 cops". Where are you getting terrorism? gmonkeh's photographic subjects were obviously people, as his recent posts attest. Most likely one of them complained. Either way, he got nabbed and questioned. He should take it like a man instead of crying racism.

And don't call me your friend. That's reserved for people that I speak to face to face.

Sorry. May I call you Dave?

Regards,
-joel

kdog

Angelo wrote:

If a cop stops me and asks for identification I will always ask for a reason. That is my right!!!

Agreed, and that's certainly the first thing I would do. Although, the OP didn't say anything about that. What he said was "I asked him if photography wasn't allowed in the marina and I tried to give him my business card but he got a little "hissy" at me."

Cheers,
-joel

Jeffro

Debating things like this on the internet is almost useless.

Cops have the right to talk to you or I on the street, just like you or I have the right to talk to each other. Now the cops can't detain you or search you for no reason. If a cop asks you for your ID, you would be doing nothing wrong asking why they need it, or what you have done.

If anyone feels they have been racially profiled here is not the place to deal with it. The police department where the cops worked would be the place for that. It would also allow one to find out why the cops talked to them in the first place, if they didn't give a reason, or you didn't ask.

This could very well have been profiling, or it could have been the actions of the OP, or like stated before, a complaint from a citizen. One thing is for sure, we weren't there, so we will never know both sides of the story.

wxwax

kdog, I'll definitely give you creative points for scenarios.

I think Jester said all that needs to be said, in the photo thread.

gmonkeh

kdog wrote:

Wrong. We have no idea why the cops picked him out as being suspicious and questioned him. I'm not naive enough to think that not one, but two cops, in this age of racial sensitivity, decided to single out one person soley because of race.

I find it interesting how many people here are willing to try and convict the cops involved without hearing their side of the story. There are countless reasons why gmonkeh may have gotten their attention. It could have been his equipment, something I personally doubt. It may have been his focus of attention, which is more likely. Even more likely is the possibility that they received a complaint. Maybe an overly protective mom thought she saw him taking pictures of her kid.

Or perhaps one of these people didn't appreciate their picture being taken by a stranger and complained to the cops. You folks would be the same people to convict the cops if a black woman complained here that a stranger was stalking their child and the cops wouldn't even go talk to the alleged stalker. You can't have it both ways.

There are two sides to every story, my friend.

Regards,
-joel

Just to let everyone know I had permission from every single one of my people subjects. I asked them ahead of time if they mind if I could take a picture of them then I gave them a card afterwards only after they granted me permission. I showed them the shots and explained to them what I was doing.

Believe me, I didn't think things like this really happened. But especially not to me. But it did , and I find it amazing how the people on this board and the other board I frequent find it so hard to believe that I was in the right.

I'm calling the BPD first thing on Monday and asking what the situation was.

Jeffro

gmonkeh wrote:

I'm calling the BPD first thing on Monday and asking what the situation was.

There you go!

Angelo

gmonkeh wrote:

I'm calling the BPD first thing on Monday and asking what the situation was.

atta boy

I hope you got a picture of the two cops for identification purposes.

kdog

gmonkeh wrote:

I'm calling the BPD first thing on Monday and asking what the situation was.

Any update?