YOU brought up race, not I. Apparently you've never been to Jackson Heights. Just finding two white youths could prove challenging depending on what area you're in.
The attitude you convey is exactly the problem with this thread. Everyone wants to ASSUME that the only reason Lex was stopped was because of the color of his skin... not because he was the only guy down at a ferry terminal with a big camera and big telephoto lens, the only guy approaching strangers and asking to take their photos (which can also be considered soliciting, especially since he admitted he was handing out business cards), and maybe the only guy who made eye contact with the cops and then decided to leave soon after. Maybe he was the only man of color down at the docks that day, but I could nearly guarantee it that they wouldn't have questioned him at all had you removed all the other factors. PROVE TO ME they stopped him SOLEY because of the color of his skin. You can't, and that's the point.
The whole point of this thread was that Lex felt he was singled out for being non-white. I cannot come to that conclusion based on the story told, nor can anyone else. There seems to be two extreme school of thought going on in these kinds of debates... the people who say "you are all paranoid and fearful and willing to give up your freedoms in the name of safety" -- and the people who say "cops can only question you if you are already breaking the law, and if they question anyone of color for any reason they are racist pigs". I tend to beleive that things aren't always so simple.
If Lex feels he was treated badly by the cops he should report it if he thinks it will make a difference. In no way though can he prove he was treated the way he was or even questioned just because he was non-white.
I lived in NYC for 57 years and spent most of my working life in Jamaica, the South Bronx and Harlem. I'm very aware of Jackson Heights and most of the communities in Queens having lived in Queens for many years.
I am very familiar with the police in NYC and from my personal observation and experiences its clear that they do racially profile folks. Its a fact that past administrations in NYC have admitted to and one that has been rather dramatically illustrated in numerous incidents over the years that do not need to be rehashed here. Its a rather simple fact.
The simple fact of Lex's experience is that he was the only non-white photographer present and he was the one that was questioned by the officers. Lex was doing nothing that was illegal or even suspicious. The police copped an attitude with Lex. The police never explained their actions. My own experience with bureaucrats (I have worked in the Queens Borough President's office when Manes was the Beep, in the Office of the Mayor or NYC during Lindsay's and Beame's administrations, and for the federal government) usually has shown that when an explanation would be embarassing don't give one.
From those simple facts it is not unreasonable to draw a conclusion that the cops actions were in part racially montivated. Can it be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, no. However from my own experiences and Lex's descriptions of the events it is not an unreasonable conclusion to draw.
Harry http://behret.smugmug.com/NANPA member How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
The simple fact of Lex's experience is that he was the only non-white photographer present
I did some googling on Bremerton and it turns out it's pretty racially diversfied. You honestly believe that race was the only difference between Lex and the other people present on the pier that day? Here are two bicycle cops -- in the rain -- with nothing better to do than single out a guy taking pictures purely because of his skin color with NO other reasons? I'm sorry, but that's a stretch for me.
Also, do you figure these cops interrogate every person of color taking pictures around the ferry? Probably not. So why Lex? Common sense says there are other factors.
and he was the one that was questioned by the officers. Lex was doing nothing that was illegal or even suspicious.
How do you answer DRabbit's interesting observation that Lex, by his own account, was approaching strangers and asking if he could take their pictures? How many times you do you reckon the cops might watch him do that before they start wondering what the heck he's doing? He posted a lot of pictures of people from the pier. I've never done it, but I doubt most folks would give permission to have their pictures taken. I wouldn't. So is it reasonable to assume he had to talk to a LOT of people? Can you honestly rule out the possibility that the cops wanted to know what was up with that? Or any of the countless other reasons why these cops would abandon their donuts long enough to chase a guy in the rain?
The police copped an attitude with Lex.
Actually, if read Lex's original post, the conversation started amicably enough, then suddenly went downhill. Believe me, I know how that goes. Last time I talked back to a cop, they threw my white ass in jail, and my date (our first date no less) had to bail me out.
BTW, I'm still confused. Is thread about racial profiling or two cop's attitudes? Lex said above he didn't give a rat's-hiney that he was questioned. So by extension, he wasn't concerned about racial profiling. He says what really bugged him was the cop's attitudes. But the attitude didn't start until after they'd chatted for a while. It's pretty clear he said something that pissed off the cops. He's lucky he didn't get put in the slammer like I did.
The police never explained their actions.
He never asked. If you read the original post, Lex asked if it wasn't ok to shoot pictures on the pier. What he should have asked was "why am I being stopped?" He evidently blew his follow-up phone call as well. It sounded to me like he got a dispatcher on the phone who read him standard party-line. If I thought I'd been racially discriminated in any way, I'd make an appointment with the chief of police and ask for a sit-down with the officers in question. That's what I did when I got arrested (see above) and we got the matter resolved to my satisfaction.
My own experience with bureaucrats (I have worked in the Queens Borough President's office when Manes was the Beep, in the Office of the Mayor or NYC during Lindsay's and Beame's administrations, and for the federal government) usually has shown that when an explanation would be embarassing don't give one.
From those simple facts it is not unreasonable to draw a conclusion that the cops actions were in part racially montivated. Can it be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, no. However from my own experiences and Lex's descriptions of the events it is not an unreasonable conclusion to draw.
Interesting choice of words "in part racially motivated". Not so black and white any more, is it?
Publicly accusing the Bremerton PD of racial bias is a pretty harsh card to play. I still don't think Lex has done his due diligence on the matter to play it yet.
I never suggested that NYC cops never use racial profiling as one of their tactics... and we could get into a whole different discussion about that really. I think I've already previously stated that I think ignoring race completely is just as ignorant as using it as a sole motivation. Again, to me, it's not so black and white.
I was merely defending my example about two suspicious youths doing something completely legal but ending up being questioned by police --when I gave the example I purposely left race out of the equation. You were the one to suggest that if they had been white they wouldn't be questioned at all. When Jackson Heights was the example location, I think your statement is a bit of a stretch.
Regardless, this whole discussion is about the experience Lex had, and I still don't see where you can definitively draw the conclusion it was race motivated. Even by your own words you think race may have only played a PART of it, and wasn't the sole factor. I happen to think it had way more to do with the big camera, the location and the actions of Lex. Do I think he did something wrong? Based on his own account, absolutely not. Do I think the cops were out of line to approach him and question him? Based on his own account, absolutely not. The only thing I see POSSIBLY wrong is that they gave him some attitude, but that wouldn't make them all that different than any other cop on any given day. Sometimes they have attitude, and sometimes they don't.
Amy Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing which ones to keep. The Dang Gallery on DangRabbit - Follow me on Twitter or on Facebook Leica M8: Zeiss 35mm f/2 Biogon and 50mm f/2 Planar; Voigtlander 15mm f/4.5, 50mm f/1.5 Nokton and 75mm f/2.5 Heliar
Olympus E-P1: Zuiko 14-42 and 25mm f/2.8 Pancake; Panasonic 45-200mm and 20mm f/1.7; and M-to-m4/3 adaptor
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Comments
I lived in NYC for 57 years and spent most of my working life in Jamaica, the South Bronx and Harlem. I'm very aware of Jackson Heights and most of the communities in Queens having lived in Queens for many years.
I am very familiar with the police in NYC and from my personal observation and experiences its clear that they do racially profile folks. Its a fact that past administrations in NYC have admitted to and one that has been rather dramatically illustrated in numerous incidents over the years that do not need to be rehashed here. Its a rather simple fact.
The simple fact of Lex's experience is that he was the only non-white photographer present and he was the one that was questioned by the officers. Lex was doing nothing that was illegal or even suspicious. The police copped an attitude with Lex. The police never explained their actions. My own experience with bureaucrats (I have worked in the Queens Borough President's office when Manes was the Beep, in the Office of the Mayor or NYC during Lindsay's and Beame's administrations, and for the federal government) usually has shown that when an explanation would be embarassing don't give one.
From those simple facts it is not unreasonable to draw a conclusion that the cops actions were in part racially montivated. Can it be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, no. However from my own experiences and Lex's descriptions of the events it is not an unreasonable conclusion to draw.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
Also, do you figure these cops interrogate every person of color taking pictures around the ferry? Probably not. So why Lex? Common sense says there are other factors. How do you answer DRabbit's interesting observation that Lex, by his own account, was approaching strangers and asking if he could take their pictures? How many times you do you reckon the cops might watch him do that before they start wondering what the heck he's doing? He posted a lot of pictures of people from the pier. I've never done it, but I doubt most folks would give permission to have their pictures taken. I wouldn't. So is it reasonable to assume he had to talk to a LOT of people? Can you honestly rule out the possibility that the cops wanted to know what was up with that? Or any of the countless other reasons why these cops would abandon their donuts long enough to chase a guy in the rain?
Actually, if read Lex's original post, the conversation started amicably enough, then suddenly went downhill. Believe me, I know how that goes. Last time I talked back to a cop, they threw my white ass in jail, and my date (our first date no less) had to bail me out.
BTW, I'm still confused. Is thread about racial profiling or two cop's attitudes? Lex said above he didn't give a rat's-hiney that he was questioned. So by extension, he wasn't concerned about racial profiling. He says what really bugged him was the cop's attitudes. But the attitude didn't start until after they'd chatted for a while. It's pretty clear he said something that pissed off the cops. He's lucky he didn't get put in the slammer like I did.
He never asked. If you read the original post, Lex asked if it wasn't ok to shoot pictures on the pier. What he should have asked was "why am I being stopped?" He evidently blew his follow-up phone call as well. It sounded to me like he got a dispatcher on the phone who read him standard party-line. If I thought I'd been racially discriminated in any way, I'd make an appointment with the chief of police and ask for a sit-down with the officers in question. That's what I did when I got arrested (see above) and we got the matter resolved to my satisfaction. Interesting choice of words "in part racially motivated". Not so black and white any more, is it?
Publicly accusing the Bremerton PD of racial bias is a pretty harsh card to play. I still don't think Lex has done his due diligence on the matter to play it yet.
Regards,
-joel
Link to my Smugmug site
I never suggested that NYC cops never use racial profiling as one of their tactics... and we could get into a whole different discussion about that really. I think I've already previously stated that I think ignoring race completely is just as ignorant as using it as a sole motivation. Again, to me, it's not so black and white.
I was merely defending my example about two suspicious youths doing something completely legal but ending up being questioned by police --when I gave the example I purposely left race out of the equation. You were the one to suggest that if they had been white they wouldn't be questioned at all. When Jackson Heights was the example location, I think your statement is a bit of a stretch.
Regardless, this whole discussion is about the experience Lex had, and I still don't see where you can definitively draw the conclusion it was race motivated. Even by your own words you think race may have only played a PART of it, and wasn't the sole factor. I happen to think it had way more to do with the big camera, the location and the actions of Lex. Do I think he did something wrong? Based on his own account, absolutely not. Do I think the cops were out of line to approach him and question him? Based on his own account, absolutely not. The only thing I see POSSIBLY wrong is that they gave him some attitude, but that wouldn't make them all that different than any other cop on any given day. Sometimes they have attitude, and sometimes they don't.
Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing which ones to keep.
The Dang Gallery on DangRabbit - Follow me on Twitter or on Facebook
Leica M8: Zeiss 35mm f/2 Biogon and 50mm f/2 Planar; Voigtlander 15mm f/4.5, 50mm f/1.5 Nokton and 75mm f/2.5 Heliar
Olympus E-P1: Zuiko 14-42 and 25mm f/2.8 Pancake; Panasonic 45-200mm and 20mm f/1.7; and M-to-m4/3 adaptor
Olympus e620: Zuiko 14-54 f/2.8-3.5