ABSURD!? And I though this was a civil forum. I asked for a open tabulation of points and a critique 'when requested' - not every entry. You did not even answer the question about open tabulation. THAT is absurd. Don't be a jerk when people ask simple questions that you do not even read.
Thomas-
Being that there are six judges with ten votes and 100 entries there is going to be a LOT of pictures that do not receive any votes *100 entries- 60 votes = 40 photos without a single vote and that is provided all the judges votes are for different photos - therefore showing the actual scoring would not benefit anyone.
My bet is that it would hurt more to see that not one person voted for your picture than just knowing you didn't make the finalists.
Same is said that it is hard enough for them to provide feedback on the 10 they picked let alone the 90 they didn't!
Post your shot in the forum for feedback or the whipping post and see what other people think. The judges give feedback in there too!
"The Journey of life is as much in oneself as the roads one travels"
DF - Thank you for that offer. That was all I was asking for.
Andy - I understand that all the judges and moderators are volunteers and appreciate their dedication. But that is no reason to imply someone who asks a question is an idiot. Especially when the question was misread. Please see my original post. I never asked for feedback on every entry which is what Eric appentrly thought I wanted.
I fail to see where posting the points for the top 20 or so entries is harmful. More work yes, but as you said somewhere, the stakes are big. If the decision is to not do that, fine.
Shay will probably be posting judges feedback sometime soon, at least I know I gave feedback on my top 10 (had to send it in 2 separate posts, I exceeded the word limit I'm such a windbag)
Since yours didn't make it to the top 10, are you requesting personal feedback? If so, I can give you something in a pm if you'd like...but I can't speak for the other judges. Hope this helps.
DF - Thank you for that offer. That was all I was asking for.
Andy - I understand that all the judges and moderators are volunteers and appreciate their dedication. But that is no reason to imply someone who asks a question is an idiot. Especially when the question was misread. Please see my original post. I never asked for feedback on every entry which is what Eric appentrly thought I wanted.
I fail to see where posting the points for the top 20 or so entries is harmful. More work yes, but as you said somewhere, the stakes are big. If the decision is to not do that, fine.
You called our fine moderator a JERK. He did not call you any names. He did give you insight into the problem at hand though. Sorry you don't like the answer...
Be civil, or DO NOT participate. Are we perfectly crystal clear?
You called our fine moderator a JERK. He did not call you any names. He did give you insight into the problem at hand though. Sorry you don't like the answer...
Be civil, or DO NOT participate. Are we perfectly crystal clear?
I know learning from your mistakes is good, but it's up to you to read what made the winners the best, and what you need to do to bring your photos to that level.
Again, see above, this is a free carrot! YOU have to work for it!
I don't think that Thomas' original request was at all impolite and frankly the idea of a tabulation is not outrageous. Perhaps it would be too much work for the mods and other volunteers, but that could be (and was by someone else) said in a civil way. I did think that Eric's response was immoderate (calling Thomas' request ABSURD could be received and insulting) as well as unresponsive to an understandable request and while Thomas should not have called Eric a jerk, I can understand the frustration that led to the comment. (Just as I understand the frustration that must have led to Eric's response.)
Now to the quoted comment above. It is not obvious at all to me why some of the pictures were chosen over others which I thought were just as good and, in some cases, significantly better. I'll bet the judges were not unanimous on their picks and, if I am right, then there were a number of pictures that one or more of the judges considered winners even though in the end they were not. So I don't think it is enough to say that we losers have only to read from the winners why we lost.
I accept that my entries have simply not been outstanding enough to the judges of the first two challenges while other entries that I would never have voted for myself were judged to be excellent. Looking at the winners gives me no idea whether I missed by an inch or a mile. The fact that I am a loser may mean that I am a bad photographer - or that my entry was not very good technically - or that the judges liked my entry but thought one or more people captured the concept better - or that I should just throw in the towel. As I said, I don't think it is all that helpful to say that we losers should figure out why we lost from looking at the winners and go from there. Aarons' suggestion about posting pictures on the forums for comment was much more constructive.
It seems to me that if we can't figure out why we aren't making the cut, then all we can do is keep working on improving our photography in our own eyes . We should enter the challenges only if we are thick skinned enough to be rejected. Over and over and over again. It will happen. To all of us. Even today's winners.
I hope that Thomas comes back to dGrin. He will be missed if he stops participating.
Virginia
_______________________________________________ "A photograph is a secret about a secret. The more it tells you, the less you know." Diane Arbus
frankly the idea of a tabulation is not outrageous.
Shoot, compete, learn - with the tools and process and forums (you can re-post your image for critique in the shots forum or Whipping Post) that are available. We simply can't do any more This is a volunteer army.
Virginia,
I really wanted to stay quiet, but you are continuing to call me out here, so I'm not going to sit down anymore.
0. My name is Erik, not Eric.
1. I'm very sad to hear you say that my reply was immoderate. I think many people don't appreciate the time we put into making this contest happen for all of you. We don't have to do this, we do it because we want to. I read Thomas' request to mean feedback for all the photos. Calling something absurd does not imply someone is an "idiot", and I'm sorry Thomas was so sensitive. Toughen up!
2. I never said Thomas' original question was impolite. I gave a frank answer. I'm a blunt person, but that's why I'm good at what I do. While Shay talks art with you, I get things done. Take me with a grain of salt.
3. We do tabulate the results. That's my job, and I take it very seriously and have made it as foolproof as possible. Shay is the artist, he recruits other artists, and its my job to corral them and get a result. The process is very simple and has been laid out, I don't feel the need to revisit it here.
4. It is also not obvious to me why some photos were chosen. This is an art, judges are human. This has been discussed to death in this contest, and the previous version of the contests. Again, no need to dig in again. It's subjective, period.
5. I sure hope you don't throw in the towel. But lets face the facts, folks, with 100 entries and growing, and only 10 spots, there's going to lots of photos that don't get picked in every round.
6. And Virginia, why are you calling yourself a loser? You didn't lose anything! You got some inspiration, and you made yourself happy with some photography! This is a contest with high stakes for sure, but come on, take a step back and see it for what it is - a photography contest!
Thanks for your reponse Erik, but can we losers ask for one thing.
List of all photos chosen by judges? Just a list, and if the choosing judge wrote a feedback, maybe that too. This way if not for 100 entries, I am sure there would be atleast 20 entries which would have been chosen by atleast 1 judge.
Thanks for your reponse Erik, but can we losers ask for one thing.
List of all photos chosen by judges? Just a list, and if the choosing judge wrote a feedback, maybe that too. This way if not for 100 entries, I am sure there would be atleast 20 entries which would have been chosen by atleast 1 judge.
You can ask.
And seriously, stop it with the "losers"! Nobody lost anything! If all the photos that didn't get selected want to send me $20, then you can put your sad face on and call yourself a loser (of $20). Ok?
I agree, 24 hours seemed like a good idea at the time when all we had was the old challenge system.
With the #2 already getting into the triple digits I for one would be much more interested in non-rushed decision.
Come think of it... Even if a judge only going to spend one minute per entry it will take about two hours. Two hours! Just to look through...
I think 72 hours would be more viable time limit, but even if it's next Friday - I'm fine with that...
The only technical issue I can see down the road (especially with this prolonged time, which, I think, is both needed and inevitable) is the last prequal before each semifinal.
Take a look at the rules:
April 30 - finalists chosen and beginning of 5th contest
May 14 - finalists chosen and beginning of 1st semifinal contest
You see, last prequal ends and the semi starts. This means all the winners from the previous four can start immediately (in fact, I think of it already:-), but if there are new winners in the #5 (or #10, etc,), they would not know whether they have won or not... While with the originally intended 24hr delay the difference was not really that big, several days can definitely put the "newcomers" at some disadvantage.
I'm sure you guys will come out with some solution to this problem.
Or, maybe, it was "by design" to add some "penalty" for those who decided to join later in the game...
If nothing else, maybe shifting the semifinals one week after the last prequalification round (and same with the finale).
FWIW...
Other than that - it's getting more and more interesting
Shay will probably be posting judges feedback sometime soon, at least I know I gave feedback on my top 10 (had to send it in 2 separate posts, I exceeded the word limit I'm such a windbag)
Since yours didn't make it to the top 10, are you requesting personal feedback? If so, I can give you something in a pm if you'd like...but I can't speak for the other judges. Hope this helps.
Erik. I really try not to misspell people's names and I truly apologize to you for having misspelled yours. Thanks for letting me know and for being a good sport about it.
As for not being a loser, let's be real. I've given myself the pep talk many dozens of times and I agree with what you say about the benefits of trying and improving. I owe a tremendous amount to other dGrinners, to the moderators who make it all happen and to the challenges, especially in the technical area, and I would not trade any of it for a one-time win. So please don't feel that I don't appreciate your hard work and contribution to making dGrin work for all of us. I do.
But the real life fact is that those of us who didn't get into the top 10 lost. There is no other way to say it or think about it. Don't we herald the winners and call them just that, winners? Yes, we who did not win have to get over it and move on, and yes there are all sorts of benefits to entering the challenges, but today we lost. So allow us to mourn for a few hours at least before we pick up our cameras in search of the irregular and picturesque. Or not, as we chose.
Virginia
_______________________________________________ "A photograph is a secret about a secret. The more it tells you, the less you know." Diane Arbus
You see, last prequal ends and the semi starts. This means all the winners from the previous four can start immediately ..., but if there are new winners in the #5 (or #10, etc,), they would not know whether they have won or not... ...several days can definitely put the "newcomers" at some disadvantage.
That's life.
The dates are set, it is what it is. Where's Shay with his "...as a real photographer, things won't always be fair", only he can get away with responses like that!
But seriously, I don't see it as a disadvantage. Everyone will see the semifinal topic and can start thinking about it at the same time. If you are going into the final qualifier yet unqualified, and can't be bothered to at least look at the semifinal topic (and even start a bit of work on it, just in case*) until you learn that you have in fact qualified, then you probably don't deserve to win anyway. Don't you agree?
Look at it as yet another way of weeding out the "ok" photogs from the really good and motivated ones, the "last ones standing"
Remember, that's a big component of Shay's big vision: photography as a whole is skill, talent, and work ethic.
*just occured to me: the worst outcome, if you don't qualify but have started shooting, is that we encourage some shooting just for the sake of shooting! How awful that would be!
I see. Well, it makes things even more challenging. :-)
You're absolutely correct that if one is serious about this whole LPS thing, s/he should have started prepare for the Grand Finale at least a month ago, if not much earlier. Yes, the playing field going to be uneven every fifth time, but it never is to start with...
Ok, back to devising my devilish picturesque ideas...
Failure is feedback, and feedback is the breakfast of champions.
I don't list that for just the giggles. It is a fact of life every photographer needs to learn. And this contest will teach you that. There is a lot of failure generated by this contest. There are only a relative few who get rewards. The rewards are there as a motivation, a carrot if you will, to go through the pain of the constant rejection.
If you ever find yourself in the business of photography you will find a world of rejection, and some rejection is much more brutal than found in the contest. But by learning to deal effectively with the rejection of the contest, you will develop enough armor to enter the business world of photography. Being able to fail, even though your work is good, and not take it personally, is a skill worth more than anything you can imagine. It means you have built self confidence, the kind of self confidence that keep you going forward when those around you are dropping like flies, the kind of self confidence that can eventually make you the winner through sheer determination.
If you are feeling rejected, good! The painful medicine is doing its work. If you give up and look for something easier, then you don't have what it takes to be the Last Photographer Standing anyway. And we are not looking for such like ones. We are looking for, and hopefully may even inspire and train the best photographers the world has ever known. If that interests you, then stick around and take your medicine
Creator of Dgrin's "Last Photographer Standing" contest
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
Comments
Be civil yourself, or don't participate. That is my final word on the topic
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Thomas-
Being that there are six judges with ten votes and 100 entries there is going to be a LOT of pictures that do not receive any votes *100 entries- 60 votes = 40 photos without a single vote and that is provided all the judges votes are for different photos - therefore showing the actual scoring would not benefit anyone.
My bet is that it would hurt more to see that not one person voted for your picture than just knowing you didn't make the finalists.
Same is said that it is hard enough for them to provide feedback on the 10 they picked let alone the 90 they didn't!
Post your shot in the forum for feedback or the whipping post and see what other people think. The judges give feedback in there too!
Aaron Newman
Website:www.CapturingLightandEmotion.com
Facebook: Capturing Light and Emotion
Andy - I understand that all the judges and moderators are volunteers and appreciate their dedication. But that is no reason to imply someone who asks a question is an idiot. Especially when the question was misread. Please see my original post. I never asked for feedback on every entry which is what Eric appentrly thought I wanted.
I fail to see where posting the points for the top 20 or so entries is harmful. More work yes, but as you said somewhere, the stakes are big. If the decision is to not do that, fine.
TomsProPhoto
Be civil, or DO NOT participate. Are we perfectly crystal clear?
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I'm outa here.:ian
TomsProPhoto
We simply won't tolerate abuse of our volunteers.
Sorry you are leaving.
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I don't think that Thomas' original request was at all impolite and frankly the idea of a tabulation is not outrageous. Perhaps it would be too much work for the mods and other volunteers, but that could be (and was by someone else) said in a civil way. I did think that Eric's response was immoderate (calling Thomas' request ABSURD could be received and insulting) as well as unresponsive to an understandable request and while Thomas should not have called Eric a jerk, I can understand the frustration that led to the comment. (Just as I understand the frustration that must have led to Eric's response.)
Now to the quoted comment above. It is not obvious at all to me why some of the pictures were chosen over others which I thought were just as good and, in some cases, significantly better. I'll bet the judges were not unanimous on their picks and, if I am right, then there were a number of pictures that one or more of the judges considered winners even though in the end they were not. So I don't think it is enough to say that we losers have only to read from the winners why we lost.
I accept that my entries have simply not been outstanding enough to the judges of the first two challenges while other entries that I would never have voted for myself were judged to be excellent. Looking at the winners gives me no idea whether I missed by an inch or a mile. The fact that I am a loser may mean that I am a bad photographer - or that my entry was not very good technically - or that the judges liked my entry but thought one or more people captured the concept better - or that I should just throw in the towel.
It seems to me that if we can't figure out why we aren't making the cut, then all we can do is keep working on improving our photography in our own eyes . We should enter the challenges only if we are thick skinned enough to be rejected. Over and over and over again. It will happen. To all of us. Even today's winners.
I hope that Thomas comes back to dGrin. He will be missed if he stops participating.
Virginia
"A photograph is a secret about a secret. The more it tells you, the less you know." Diane Arbus
Email
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I really wanted to stay quiet, but you are continuing to call me out here, so I'm not going to sit down anymore.
0. My name is Erik, not Eric.
1. I'm very sad to hear you say that my reply was immoderate. I think many people don't appreciate the time we put into making this contest happen for all of you. We don't have to do this, we do it because we want to. I read Thomas' request to mean feedback for all the photos. Calling something absurd does not imply someone is an "idiot", and I'm sorry Thomas was so sensitive. Toughen up!
2. I never said Thomas' original question was impolite. I gave a frank answer. I'm a blunt person, but that's why I'm good at what I do. While Shay talks art with you, I get things done. Take me with a grain of salt.
3. We do tabulate the results. That's my job, and I take it very seriously and have made it as foolproof as possible. Shay is the artist, he recruits other artists, and its my job to corral them and get a result. The process is very simple and has been laid out, I don't feel the need to revisit it here.
4. It is also not obvious to me why some photos were chosen. This is an art, judges are human. This has been discussed to death in this contest, and the previous version of the contests. Again, no need to dig in again. It's subjective, period.
5. I sure hope you don't throw in the towel. But lets face the facts, folks, with 100 entries and growing, and only 10 spots, there's going to lots of photos that don't get picked in every round.
6. And Virginia, why are you calling yourself a loser? You didn't lose anything! You got some inspiration, and you made yourself happy with some photography! This is a contest with high stakes for sure, but come on, take a step back and see it for what it is - a photography contest!
Go, shoot, be happy!
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
List of all photos chosen by judges? Just a list, and if the choosing judge wrote a feedback, maybe that too. This way if not for 100 entries, I am sure there would be atleast 20 entries which would have been chosen by atleast 1 judge.
FB:https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
Site :http://www.tanveer.in
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And seriously, stop it with the "losers"! Nobody lost anything! If all the photos that didn't get selected want to send me $20, then you can put your sad face on and call yourself a loser (of $20). Ok?
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
Shay is coordinating that, and he hasn't had time to put that thread together yet for this round. Patience, just a little patience is all we ask.
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
With the #2 already getting into the triple digits I for one would be much more interested in non-rushed decision.
Come think of it... Even if a judge only going to spend one minute per entry it will take about two hours. Two hours! Just to look through...
I think 72 hours would be more viable time limit, but even if it's next Friday - I'm fine with that...
The only technical issue I can see down the road (especially with this prolonged time, which, I think, is both needed and inevitable) is the last prequal before each semifinal.
Take a look at the rules:
You see, last prequal ends and the semi starts. This means all the winners from the previous four can start immediately (in fact, I think of it already:-), but if there are new winners in the #5 (or #10, etc,), they would not know whether they have won or not... While with the originally intended 24hr delay the difference was not really that big, several days can definitely put the "newcomers" at some disadvantage.
I'm sure you guys will come out with some solution to this problem.
Or, maybe, it was "by design" to add some "penalty" for those who decided to join later in the game...
If nothing else, maybe shifting the semifinals one week after the last prequalification round (and same with the finale).
FWIW...
Other than that - it's getting more and more interesting
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
You Sid are greatly missed!!! :smooch
It was nice to come back...hopefully I'll even have some time to participate some more!
Erik. I really try not to misspell people's names and I truly apologize to you for having misspelled yours. Thanks for letting me know and for being a good sport about it.
As for not being a loser, let's be real. I've given myself the pep talk many dozens of times and I agree with what you say about the benefits of trying and improving. I owe a tremendous amount to other dGrinners, to the moderators who make it all happen and to the challenges, especially in the technical area, and I would not trade any of it for a one-time win. So please don't feel that I don't appreciate your hard work and contribution to making dGrin work for all of us. I do.
But the real life fact is that those of us who didn't get into the top 10 lost. There is no other way to say it or think about it. Don't we herald the winners and call them just that, winners? Yes, we who did not win have to get over it and move on, and yes there are all sorts of benefits to entering the challenges, but today we lost. So allow us to mourn for a few hours at least before we pick up our cameras in search of the irregular and picturesque. Or not, as we chose.
Virginia
"A photograph is a secret about a secret. The more it tells you, the less you know." Diane Arbus
Email
The dates are set, it is what it is. Where's Shay with his "...as a real photographer, things won't always be fair", only he can get away with responses like that!
But seriously, I don't see it as a disadvantage. Everyone will see the semifinal topic and can start thinking about it at the same time. If you are going into the final qualifier yet unqualified, and can't be bothered to at least look at the semifinal topic (and even start a bit of work on it, just in case*) until you learn that you have in fact qualified, then you probably don't deserve to win anyway. Don't you agree?
Look at it as yet another way of weeding out the "ok" photogs from the really good and motivated ones, the "last ones standing"
Remember, that's a big component of Shay's big vision: photography as a whole is skill, talent, and work ethic.
*just occured to me: the worst outcome, if you don't qualify but have started shooting, is that we encourage some shooting just for the sake of shooting! How awful that would be!
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
We can agree to disagree. Anyone who takes the time to shoot, and enters the contest is a winner in my book.
That's the spirit, just don't be too hard on yourself.
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
I see. Well, it makes things even more challenging. :-)
You're absolutely correct that if one is serious about this whole LPS thing, s/he should have started prepare for the Grand Finale at least a month ago, if not much earlier. Yes, the playing field going to be uneven every fifth time, but it never is to start with...
Ok, back to devising my devilish picturesque ideas...
Failure is feedback, and feedback is the breakfast of champions.
I don't list that for just the giggles. It is a fact of life every photographer needs to learn. And this contest will teach you that. There is a lot of failure generated by this contest. There are only a relative few who get rewards. The rewards are there as a motivation, a carrot if you will, to go through the pain of the constant rejection.
If you ever find yourself in the business of photography you will find a world of rejection, and some rejection is much more brutal than found in the contest. But by learning to deal effectively with the rejection of the contest, you will develop enough armor to enter the business world of photography. Being able to fail, even though your work is good, and not take it personally, is a skill worth more than anything you can imagine. It means you have built self confidence, the kind of self confidence that keep you going forward when those around you are dropping like flies, the kind of self confidence that can eventually make you the winner through sheer determination.
If you are feeling rejected, good! The painful medicine is doing its work. If you give up and look for something easier, then you don't have what it takes to be the Last Photographer Standing anyway. And we are not looking for such like ones. We are looking for, and hopefully may even inspire and train the best photographers the world has ever known. If that interests you, then stick around and take your medicine
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie