Advantages Of A Full-frame Sensor

saurora

So I walked into my local camera store today pretty much intending to purchase a Canon EOS 5D. When I arrived, the place was really, really busy with lots of students waiting for a class to start. They were talking to my usual salesperson. The place was a beehive of activity. Someone appeared to be making a camera purchase and they were discussing full-frame vs. crop sensors. So I stood behind waiting and listening to the discussion for a few minutes before deciding to leave...without a new camera. He was too busy and I didn't have time, but I'll go back and discuss when he's not so overwhelmed. Basically the salesman was pretty negative about the value of a full frame sensor, and for a first dslr purchase I agree with him. He has steered me in the right direction with many of my purchases, and never tries to over-sell which I appreciate alot.

That being said, I know I have read pros and cons here and there regarding sensor comparisons. I'm not really looking to debate them. I have the 20D which I purchased shortly before the 30D was released. I have always regretted not having a larger display since I am getting more visually impaired all the time. It seems I am constantly reading how people "love" their 5D's and those who don't own one aspire to eventually acquire one.

I'm a people photographer leaning towards (but not exclusively) natural light portraits not done in a studio setting. What are the benefits of a full frame sensor for a portrait/wedding/event type photographer? I already own a fairly nice selection of L glass and eventually will need a back-up camera. I know lots of wedding photogs (Shay comes to mind) who use a crop sensor successfully. I know it isn't a requirement for success and I could probably live without it, but I admit to being a gearaholic. :rolleyes And I think it's money well spent if you truly enjoy something. Money isn't the issue....I would just like to know more about the specific advantages and pleasures of owning a 5D.

One thing I thought about, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, is that with the same lenses I would be able to work closer to the subject in a tighter area with the lenses I already have. I may be thinking incorrectly on this. Is the wider angle the only lens benefit? Are there any effects on DOF? I think my blood sugar is getting low and I may not be making any sense here, please just tell me what it is that makes you love your 5D!!! :barb

wxwax

You are correct wrt your working area. Your long lenses will be wider. I shot headshots today with the 24-105, caught me by surprise how close I could get at 100mm. Last year I shot with a 1.3 crop body, had to get further away.

Other advantages:
Easier manual focusing (larger viewfinder image to work with)
Superb high ISO performance

You're not primarily interested in landscape type stuff, so the wide appeal may be lost on you. But it allowed me to get this shot, one I've wanted for a long time.

LiquidAir

The depth of field is 1 1/3 stops shallower on a full frame sensor when using lenses with the same field of view (not focal length). Shooting at 85mm and f/1.8 on a 5D gives you the same DoF as shooting at 50mm and f/1.2 on a 20D. If you like shallow DoF, the 5D can actually save you money because you are trading a $1600 lens for a $400 lens. Alternately, the 85/1.2 and 50/1.2 will take shots that cannot be reproduced for love or money on a crop body. On the other end of things you pay the price when you want everything in focus. You will need 1 1/3 stops more light so you can stop down that much further. That is not as bad as it sounds because the 5D has a lower pixel pitch so diffraction effects kick in later.

My summary feeling about the DoF difference is that the 5D is a more difficult camera to use because it is less forgiving about focus and choice of aperture. However, once you master it the rewards you get from extra control are very real.

In terms of overall quality improvement from the 5D, I think the extra resolution is only part of the story. There are a couple of other factors that I notice:

Part of it is that longer focal length lenses are fundamentally better than shorter ones because they bend the light less. Your portraits will look better on a 5D simply because you are shooting them with an 85mm lens rather than a 50mm. That effect is a little hard to put your finger on because it depends on your specific set of lenses, but I think it is a significant part of what makes the 5D sensor so special.

Another part is that while the 5D has a higher resolution is has a lower pixel density than a 20D. What this means is than any abberations or softness in your lens will be less well resolved. So, while you sometimes sacrifice in the corners because of the wider field of view, you usually gain in the center which, most of the time, is where it counts.

saurora

wxwax wrote:

You are correct wrt your working area. Your long lenses will be wider. I shot headshots today with the 24-105, caught me by surprise how close I could get at 100mm. Last year I shot with a 1.3 crop body, had to get further away.

Other advantages:
Easier manual focusing (larger viewfinder image to work with)
Superb high ISO performance

You're not primarily interested in landscape type stuff, so the wide appeal may be lost on you. But it allowed me to get this shot, one I've wanted for a long time.

That is a great shot by the way!!! The wide angle aspect for landscape, etc., is a bonus for me, but getting closer and more intimate with my subject would be a plus. I like the longer lenses, but I always feel so distanced from my subject in terms of communication and interaction. Thanks Sid.

TristanP

Now THAT is a freakin' cool shot.

saurora

LiquidAir thank you for taking the time to explain all of these advantages and differences - exactly what I was looking for.

LiquidAir wrote:

The depth of field is 1 1/3 stops shallower on a full frame sensor when using lenses with the same field of view (not focal length). Shooting at 85mm and f/1.8 on a 5D gives you the same DoF as shooting at 50mm and f/1.2 on a 20D. If you like shallow DoF, the 5D can actually save you money because you are trading a $1600 lens for a $400 lens.

I do love shallow DOF and I can tell looking at other posts that I am unable to achieve quite the same dramatic effect in that arena with my 20D. So in one sense my lenses will 'appreciate' in value, eh???

Alternately, the 85/1.2 and 50/1.2 will take shots that cannot be reproduced for love or money on a crop body.

I have the 85 f/1.8 and never feel I am getting quite the results I expect and it is a little long indoors. I use the 35 f/1.4 indoors with low-light, sometimes the 50 f/1.8 (which I don't use much at all). I have the 24-105 f/4 as my walk around.

On the other end of things you pay the price when you want everything in focus. You will need 1 1/3 stops more light so you can stop down that much further. That is not as bad as it sounds because the 5D has a lower pixel pitch so diffraction effects kick in later.

Hmmm...so the need for good lenses! (Got 'em! May need another one...or 2)

My summary feeling about the DoF difference is that the 5D is a more difficult camera to use because it is less forgiving about focus and choice of aperture. However, once you master it the rewards you get from extra control are very real.

This is good to know in advance of a purchase so I can expect a different experience.

In terms of overall quality improvement from the 5D, I think the extra resolution is only part of the story. There are a couple of other factors that I notice:

Part of it is that longer focal length lenses are fundamentally better than shorter ones because they bend the light less. Your portraits will look better on a 5D simply because you are shooting them with an 85mm lens rather than a 50mm. That effect is a little hard to put your finger on because it depends on your specific set of lenses, but I think it is a significant part of what makes the 5D sensor so special.

Longer lenses have always been desirable, and it's disappointing (in some situations) to have to resort to a shorter lens on the 20D.

Another part is that while the 5D has a higher resolution is has a lower pixel density than a 20D. What this means is than any abberations or softness in your lens will be less well resolved. So, while you sometimes sacrifice in the corners because of the wider field of view, you usually gain in the center which, most of the time, is where it counts.

Good stuff I'm certainly not unhappy with my 20D and as a 2nd camera I think the versatility would be a plus. Thanks again for explaining so well!

LiquidAir

saurora wrote:

I have the 85 f/1.8 and never feel I am getting quite the results I expect and it is a little long indoors. I use the 35 f/1.4 indoors with low-light, sometimes the 50 f/1.8 (which I don't use much at all). I have the 24-105 f/4 as my walk around.

My low light suite on the 5D are the 35/1.4, 50/1.4, 85/1.8 and 135/2 and they are amazing lenses on the 5D. I use the 35, 50, and 85 pretty much equally. The 135 gets a bit less use because (like the 85 on the 20D) it is a touch long for many indoor situations. For my normal low light people photography, on the 5D I never really want to go wider than 35. One of my standard tricks is to carry the 35, 50, and 85 with one lens in each pocket and the third on the camera.

I too use the 24-105 as a walk around lens. This lens fits the 5D like a glove--it seems like the right answer for almost any application where I am shooting stopped down. My current LPS#4 entry was shot with the 24-105 at the 24mm end and stopped down to f/22 and the lens performance was stellar.

pathfinder

Saurora,

I like the 5D because I grew up shooting 35mm film, so my 'eye' tends to see and think in that format.

The shallower DOF can be a real assett. It can also be a disadvantage - for macro work the increased DOF of the APS sensor cameras can be an advantage.

The viewfinder of the 5D is brighter than the 20D's, but the frame rate is distinctively slower than that of the 20D. For wildlife, the 20D may be a better choice than the 5D. AF speed and accuracy seems pretty similar to me.

LiquidAir is right that the 35 f1.4, 50 f1.4, 85 f1.8 and the 135 f2 are all stellar lenses and were all originally designed with full frame in mind.

The shutter noise is quieter on the 5D.

I think you will be very happy with the 5D. The low noise, high iso, along with the lovely bokeh with good L lenses is just very hard to improve on.

I carry my 5D and a 24-105 routinely, unless it is raining. It is not a real good camera for shooting in the rain, as I have posted about previously.

ziggy53

I would also like everyone to remember the "forgotten" format, the crop 1.3x cameras.

The Canon 1D MKII/MKIIN/MKIII are the "middle" children in the family of sensor sizes, but they have unique properties that put them into a very special league.

All that was said previously about the full-frame and crop 1.6x cameras, regarding DOF and FOV/AOV (Depth of Field and Field of View/Angle of View, respectively), can be averaged with the crop 1.3x cameras.

The big advantage of these median chip cameras is their blazing speed. Everything is more immediate and, potentially, more accurate as well. They also excel in high-ISO, with the 1D MKIII setting a new record for production cameras.

The big disadvantage is that Canon EF-S lenses won't work or even mount on these cameras, but then the full-frame cameras are also restricted in the same way, for pretty much the same reasons.

saurora

Thanks Pathfinder. I did read your post not too long ago about the problems with shooting in the rain. It kind of put me off for a moment, but then I realize I don't really shoot in the rain. If I was a landscape photog I might consider a different camera. I also don't do macro. I do some flowers, but not true macro. I can always use the 20D if need be. The quiet shutter could be an improvement...and like you, I grew up using 35mm framing also. Maybe that's why I don't crop in camera so well anymore.

urbanaries

Nice thread! This was great reading, many thoughtful, informative responses to Saurora's dilemma, which many of us share.

saurora

ziggy53 wrote:

I would also like everyone to remember the "forgotten" format, the crop 1.3x cameras.

The Canon 1D MKII/MKIIN/MKIII are the "middle" children in the family of sensor sizes, but they have unique properties that put them into a very special league.

All that was said previously about the full-frame and crop 1.6x cameras, regarding DOF and FOV/AOV (Depth of Field and Field of View/Angle of View, respectively), can be averaged with the crop 1.3x cameras.

The big advantage of these median chip cameras is their blazing speed. Everything is more immediate and, potentially, more accurate as well. They also excel in high-ISO, with the 1D MKIII setting a new record for production cameras.

The big disadvantage is that Canon EF-S lenses won't work or even mount on these cameras, but then the full-frame cameras are also restricted in the same way, for pretty much the same reasons.

Thanks for your comments Ziggy. Yes, the blazing speed is impressive and the new 45 pt auto-focus, not to mention a 3-inch display! If I were a guy, or a little stronger, this would be the camera to have. Along with being more durable, it is a heavier camera to haul around. That's a big issue for me....the 20D was a huge adjustment which thankfully, I finally overcame. One more pound of weight (almost) is pushing my envelope. The fast frames would be helpful even in children photogaphy, trying to capture those ever-changing expressions. Have you ever noticed in gear how many different options are available and with each one you gain and lose features/quality. It's enough to drive you nuts, especially if you fret over making decisions like I do!

ziggy53

saurora wrote:

Thanks for your comments Ziggy. Yes, the blazing speed is impressive and the new 45 pt auto-focus, not to mention a 3-inch display! If I were a guy, or a little stronger, this would be the camera to have. Along with being more durable, it is a heavier camera to haul around. That's a big issue for me....the 20D was a huge adjustment which thankfully, I finally overcame. One more pound of weight (almost) is pushing my envelope. The fast frames would be helpful even in children photogaphy, trying to capture those ever-changing expressions. Have you ever noticed in gear how many different options are available and with each one you gain and lose features/quality. It's enough to drive you nuts, especially if you fret over making decisions like I do!

Tell me about it. The user interfaces are just different between cameras, I sometimes have to hesitate and think, "OK, I know I found that 'whatsit' before. Now, where did they put it on this (blasted) camera?" (Replace the word "blasted" with your choice of words, depending upon the level of stress in the moment.)

I wish I could say I am used to the weight difference between the cameras. Rather, I would say that I am "adapting" to the weight, but I don't think I'll ever get used to it.

I do still have the Canon XT when I want to go light, and there are many times when it is sufficient quality and speed.

Choices! So much better to have than not have.

saurora

Tell me about it. The user interfaces are just different between cameras, I sometimes have to hesitate and think, "OK, I know I found that 'whatsit' before. Now, where did they put it on this (blasted) camera?" (Replace the word "blasted" with your choice of words, depending upon the level of stress in the moment.)

Stress is my middle name. The more things I have to think about when shooting the higher the stress level and the bigger chance of going into a tailspin!!! I try to keep things simple.

jdryan3

The reason to get it is highlighted below

saurora wrote:

... but I admit to being a gearaholic.

Nothing else needs to be said

ChrisJ

At this point I'm holding out for the Digic III to trickle down. I think I still like my 1.6 crop sensor, but I would like the advantages of the 30D, plus the Digic III (hopefully in the 40D). I don't think the wait is going to be that long, and it should be worth it.

I'm also pleased that the lenses coming out for the crop sensors are good quality (10-22, 17-55). So the switch to a full frame doesn't seem as tempting. Most of the time, I like the extra reach!

Antonio Correia

I read with interest the opinions in here.
I think I am also a gearaholic. Am I ?

I own a 20 D and some L lens.
I have thought for a while to get a MkIII. But I gave up because it's too much money. We can't have everything in life, even if we try hard.

You probably know that I travel quite a bit.
In my last trip to India, last month, I used two 20D s.
One with the 16-35 and the other with the 24-70.
I found very pleasant to have the same 2 cams. The same model I mean.

But - one 20D belongs to my daughter, and the other is mine - if I had a 5D I could use it for the 16-35 and the 20D with the 24-70.
I would have then a very good range: from 16 mm to 112mm (70*1,6).

I hold a 5D once. I found it was very pleasant because it has a good handling and the screen is so bright !

Murphy66

FWIW - I love to shoot tight on faces and even if Canon came out with a replacement for the 5D, they would not make a penny on me. I LOVE the full frame, I love the ISO options and I love the size of the body.

Most of my shooting is done with my 24-105 L or 85 mm. I cannot tell you how satisfying it is to shoot with this camera.

Please see www.marcottephotography.smugmug.com and look in the portraits gallery or the interiors gallery.

Yes, I am emotionally attached to this camera for all the intangible reasons I cannot list. I love this camera and I hope my results show it.

Bob

saurora

jdryan3 wrote:

The reason to get it is highlighted below



Nothing else needs to be said

What can I say, I have an addictive personality!!!! Instead of food, drugs, etc. I'm hooked on Canon gear!

saurora

ChrisJ wrote:

At this point I'm holding out for the Digic III to trickle down. I think I still like my 1.6 crop sensor, but I would like the advantages of the 30D, plus the Digic III (hopefully in the 40D). I don't think the wait is going to be that long, and it should be worth it.

I'm also pleased that the lenses coming out for the crop sensors are good quality (10-22, 17-55). So the switch to a full frame doesn't seem as tempting. Most of the time, I like the extra reach!

It's been a long time since using my old 35mm camera, so I've become very used to the crop sensor, but I think having the 20D as a backup camera will offer the best of both worlds.....well, at least this is my limit price-wise. I just won't go for the next step up!

saurora

So, my finger is getting itchy to push the buy button at B&H for the 5D. I don't follow all the technical news too closely, is there anything new expected for the 5D anytime soon?

Seefutlung

Hey S-

I have a 5D and a 20D. The 5D is a great camera (period), but I don't think it is twice as good as a 30D ($2600 vs $1300).

Up to an 8x10 (or so) one cannot tell the difference between a 20D/30D/XTi and a 5D. At 100% crop the differences are very apparent especially at higher ISOs ... but once again at 8x10 there is not a visible difference.

I got a very very good deal on my 5D and I'm glad I have it ... otherwise I'd be wondering what the camera is all about. With what I know now, I would be happier with a 30D and an L or two than a 5D at full price. With what I know now would I buy the 5D again at my deal price? ... that is a tough decision ... I'd probably be better off putting the monies towards an N or now a MKIII.

But I shoot very little set-up stuff ... mostly environmental snaps of people at events, sports and an odd landscape/architectural.

The 5D will fit your shooting style better than mine ... but I still feel the camera is way overpriced.

You mentioned controls ... there really won't be much of a learning curve between the 20D and the 5D the controls and menus are similar.

If you really want to try a 5D prior to purchase we can meet ... say HB ... and you can take some shots with mine.

Gary

Antonio Correia

Seefutlung wrote:

Hey S-

I have a 5D and a 20D. The 5D is a great camera (period), but I don't think it is twice as good as a 30D ($2600 vs $1300).

Up to an 8x10 (or so) one cannot tell the difference between a 20D/30D/XTi and a 5D. At 100% crop the differences are very apparent especially at higher ISOs ... but once again at 8x10 there is not a visible difference.

I got a very very good deal on my 5D and I'm glad I have it ... otherwise I'd be wondering what the camera is all about. With what I know now, I would be happier with a 30D and an L or two than a 5D at full price. With what I know now would I buy the 5D again at my deal price? ... that is a tough decision ... I'd probably be better off putting the monies towards an N or now a MKIII.

But I shoot very little set-up stuff ... mostly environmental snaps of people at events, sports and an odd landscape/architectural.

The 5D will fit your shooting style better than mine ... but I still feel the camera is way overpriced.

You mentioned controls ... there really won't be much of a learning curve between the 20D and the 5D the controls and menus are similar.

If you really want to try a 5D prior to purchase we can meet ... say HB ... and you can take some shots with mine.

Gary

I had thought that Gary could give some tip(s) on this, because he owns both cams.

Glad you did it Gary. Precious comments.

They suit me also.
I wish I was near South Cal to go and shoot with you

Who knows, one day ? ...

The truth is: I must go to the States same day !:D

pathfinder

Seefutlung wrote:

Hey S-

I have a 5D and a 20D. The 5D is a great camera (period), but I don't think it is twice as good as a 30D ($2600 vs $1300).

Up to an 8x10 (or so) one cannot tell the difference between a 20D/30D/XTi and a 5D. At 100% crop the differences are very apparent especially at higher ISOs ... but once again at 8x10 there is not a visible difference.

I got a very very good deal on my 5D and I'm glad I have it ... otherwise I'd be wondering what the camera is all about. With what I know now, I would be happier with a 30D and an L or two than a 5D at full price. With what I know now would I buy the 5D again at my deal price? ... that is a tough decision ... I'd probably be better off putting the monies towards an N or now a MKIII.

But I shoot very little set-up stuff ... mostly environmental snaps of people at events, sports and an odd landscape/architectural.

The 5D will fit your shooting style better than mine ... but I still feel the camera is way overpriced.

You mentioned controls ... there really won't be much of a learning curve between the 20D and the 5D the controls and menus are similar.

If you really want to try a 5D prior to purchase we can meet ... say HB ... and you can take some shots with mine.

Gary

I strongly agree with you, Gary.

The 5D is a great camera and I like mine a great deal, but I do not feel disadvantaged when using the 20D. The 20D is a great camera also. It simply will not allow as much cropping or as large a print, but it is still much better than 35mm film ever was.

Lenses, not cameras, are a better investment long term.

Antonio Correia

pathfinder wrote:

... Lenses, not cameras, are a better investment long term.

Indeed, Pathfinder, indeed.

And this is the reason why I have invested in L lenses.:D

I think that it is a real great advantage to have lenses with very large apertures. Mines are all 2.8.
I notice this advantage when I shoot with the NDF or the CPF.

Antonio Correia

I found this and thought it could be of some use.
I sincerely hope so !

pathfinder

Antonio Correia wrote:

I found this and thought it could be of some use.
I sincerely hope so !

Did you buy the review, Antonio? I did not

Antonio Correia

pathfinder wrote:

Did you buy the review, Antonio? I did not

Neither did I Pathfinder.
Sorry.
It's of no use for you, or for me. The link I mean.

Seefutlung

Hey Antonio, thanks for the link. If you follow the link and poke around ... there are some free reviews which were quite interesting.

Gray

Antonio Correia

Seefutlung wrote:

Hey Antonio, thanks for the link. If you follow the link and poke around ... there are some free reviews which were quite interesting.

Gray

You do know the Luminous Landscape don't you ?
The guy is fantastic. Amazing.

He makes good articles and analizes.

He just came from a trip to Amazonia !
How I would like to come with him in one of those travels...

Let's not hijack this thread !

Antonio Correia

Saurora.

You have a bigger dilemma now.

The 5D the Mac II ? huh or the III
(where is the symbol of the dollar in my computer ? = $$$$$$$$$$$ got it )