So, my finger is getting itchy to push the buy button at B&H for the 5D. I don't follow all the technical news too closely, is there anything new expected for the 5D anytime soon?
Nobody has a crystal ball, but I doubt there will be a replacement for the 5D this year. If I had to hazard a guess the next bodies we will see out of Canon are a 1Ds mark III and a 1.6 crop body to replace the 30D.
I have a 5D and a 20D. The 5D is a great camera (period), but I don't think it is twice as good as a 30D ($2600 vs $1300).
Up to an 8x10 (or so) one cannot tell the difference between a 20D/30D/XTi and a 5D. At 100% crop the differences are very apparent especially at higher ISOs ... but once again at 8x10 there is not a visible difference.
I got a very very good deal on my 5D and I'm glad I have it ... otherwise I'd be wondering what the camera is all about. With what I know now, I would be happier with a 30D and an L or two than a 5D at full price. With what I know now would I buy the 5D again at my deal price? ... that is a tough decision ... I'd probably be better off putting the monies towards an N or now a MKIII.
But I shoot very little set-up stuff ... mostly environmental snaps of people at events, sports and an odd landscape/architectural.
The 5D will fit your shooting style better than mine ... but I still feel the camera is way overpriced.
You mentioned controls ... there really won't be much of a learning curve between the 20D and the 5D the controls and menus are similar.
If you really want to try a 5D prior to purchase we can meet ... say HB ... and you can take some shots with mine.
Gary
Hi Gary...glad you stopped by. I forgot you had a 5D or I would have asked you about it. Thanks for the info and your thoughts on it. After reading your comments and Antonio's today, I had to go back and re-visit my own thoughts about why I thought I would like to have (not necessarily need to have!) a Canon 5D. I agree it probably isn't worth paying twice as much for as the 20D or even 30D. Each Canon line has it's own merits and (unfortunately) it's like buying a new car to me, where you like the extras on different models but they aren't all available on any one model (Canon's smart like that ). The pluses for the 5D are not huge in comparison to the 20D, but a few of them (for me) are just a little extra icing on the cake. Getting closer to your subject, higher ISO & cropping performance, shallower DOF for really isolating details, easier manual focusing (due to larger, brighter viewfinder), ability to use longer lenses for portraits, quieter shutter. On the other hand, like Antonio so helpfully pointed out, I could buy a MAC!!!!! (Thanks, Antonio!) Ok........so I'm still on the fence. Thanks for your generous offer to try out your camera. I am not concerned about the controls, I have used Canon's for quite a while and am comfortable with their menus. You know, I dropped my 20D with lens attached last week on a marble floor so you might want to retract that offer! But it would be great to shoot with you if you're ever in the area ..let me know!
Nobody has a crystal ball, but I doubt there will be a replacement for the 5D this year. If I had to hazard a guess the next bodies we will see out of Canon are a 1Ds mark III and a 1.6 crop body to replace the 30D.
If I hold out on the 5D I'll just wait and spring for he 40D!!!
The 5D the Mac II ? huh or the III
(where is the symbol of the dollar in my computer ? = $$$$$$$$$$$ got it )
Antonio, thanks for your thoughts. Dilemma? To spend or not to spend! I probably will.......I just like to give things a lot of thought before jumping off a cliff. It's too late in the week to order and get before the weekend unless I pay for overnight shipping, so I can muddle over this a few more days!!!
I found this and thought it could be of some use.
I sincerely hope so !
Thanks for the link Antonio. I did not purchase the downloaded review, but the free Depth of Field review was very interesting and confirmed some thoughts I had.
>Getting closer to your subject,
What does this mean? Typically, if one wishes to be physically closer to the subject, one zooms out or slaps on a shorter focal length lens and takes a step or two forward.
> higher ISO
The 5D and the 20D/30D/1DMKII series all go up to ISO 3200. The 5D and the 1D series all go down to ISO 50.
> & cropping performance
Crop in the camera not in the computer ... but seriously, the FF/12MP is an advantage in cropping but (the big but) the wider FOV will allow more distracting stuff to creep into the image ... With the APS-C sensor it is easier to see all the distracting elements because it all right there ... on the FF one has to shift their eye away from the center and check out the edges. While the 5D has a better "cropping performance" ... unless one is very dilligent on their composition, there is also a propensity for the 5D to "collect" more distracting elements along the edges.
> shallower DOF for really isolating details,
I really don't see it. I'm sure it's there but the shallower DOF isn't all that significant for the stuff I shoot. Maybe in the studio for product photography this can be used to an advantage ... but I don't see it when I compare 20D to 5D images.
> easier manual focusing (due to larger, brighter viewfinder),
So who manual focuses (except for macro)? When was the last time you manual focused ... and why? On the 5D I do select the outside focus point(s) for wide shots much more frequently than the 20D.
> ability to use longer lenses for portraits,
Isn't it about all the same ... using a 200mm on a 5D will deliver a similar perspective as a 135mm on a 20D. What is the advantage? You'll be standing in the same spot creating a similar framing scenario with a 135mm on a 20D or a 200mm on a 5D.
> quieter shutter.
While the 20D is loud ... the 5D is note mute by any means ... a bit lower frequency but not a Leica or even an XTi.
> On the other hand, like Antonio so helpfully pointed out, I could buy a MAC!!!!! (Thanks, Antonio!)
We all know Antonio is great - lol ... even if he is Portuguese.
> Ok........so I'm still on the fence.
It's a win/win situation ... by any measurement (except value) the 5D is a wonderful camera ... and you won't be disappointed but, the visual difference between a 5D and 20D/30D is insignificant until you start making 16x20 sized prints. (And the 5 FPS is great on the 20D/30D ... but that probably doesn't matter to you.)
>Thanks for your generous offer to try out your camera.
The offer was made for you to compare a 5D image to a 20D image. Bring a couple of cards and shoot apples to apples.
> But it would be great to shoot with you if you're ever in the area ..let me know!
I'm always in the area ... sorta booked for this weekend ... Friday evening gonna shoot some time exposures of LA from Mulholland Drive. Saturday/Sunday doing the Heards Garden Tour (one of those backyard fundraiser things.)
You should join LAShooters, a yahoo group. We are a loose group of photogs who shoot all the time. Usually about two times a week. We comminicate via email and critique via Smugmug, PBase, Flickr, et al. Most of what I post originated from LAShooters.
The 5D the Mac II ? huh or the III
(where is the symbol of the dollar in my computer ? = $$$$$$$$$$$ got it )
I want to cry. :cry
I did not mean Mac but Mark II.
It would not make sense to suggest instead of a camera, a computer !
I am really sorry Seneca. :cry
Actually, it made sense as it was! Don't worry Antonio...Mac or Mark...either one would be an option if I didn't buy the 5D. (BTW......it's Saurora not Seneca!!! )
Actually, it made sense as it was! Don't worry Antonio...Mac or Mark...either one would be an option if I didn't buy the 5D. (BTW......it's Saurora not Seneca!!! )
Oh gosh !!!
Not again !!!
I am forbiden to post for the day !
>Getting closer to your subject,
What does this mean? Typically, if one wishes to be physically closer to the subject, one zooms out or slaps on a shorter focal length lens and takes a step or two forward.
Gary, you and I shoot totally different styles. Street shooters don't want to be physically close to people. They usually are trying to be discreet. People who want to do portraits need to communicate verbally with their subject. I'm talking physical closeness, not visual.
> higher ISO
The 5D and the 20D/30D/1DMKII series all go up to ISO 3200. The 5D and the 1D series all go down to ISO 50.
What I was referring to here goes with the next statement, that when cropping even using a high ISO the outcome is markedly better from what I've come to understand.
> & cropping performance. Crop in the camera not in the computer ... but seriously, the FF/12MP is an advantage in cropping but (the big but) the wider FOV will allow more distracting stuff to creep into the image ... With the APS-C sensor it is easier to see all the distracting elements because it all right there ... on the FF one has to shift their eye away from the center and check out the edges. While the 5D has a better "cropping performance" ... unless one is very dilligent on their composition, there is also a propensity for the 5D to "collect" more distracting elements along the edges.
You said it, the 5D has a better cropping performance. Again, it's related to the difference in our styles. Shooting portraits I will not be as concerned about the edges as say, a landscape photog. In fact, mostly I use a high aperture and do not expect the edges (for the most part) to be critically sharp. I don't crop too closely in camera for portraits as I need to leave enought room for different sized prints. Cropping.....think wedding type shots, baby shoots, where you might want to zoom in later (in the DR) and isolate a part of that shot. I know this isn't your style, but it's mine.
> shallower DOF for really isolating details,
I really don't see it. I'm sure it's there but the shallower DOF isn't all that significant for the stuff I shoot. Maybe in the studio for product photography this can be used to an advantage ... but I don't see it when I compare 20D to 5D images.
In the studio or in a church....think "details"....rings, hands, eyes, ...
> easier manual focusing (due to larger, brighter viewfinder),
So who manual focuses (except for macro)? When was the last time you manual focused ... and why? On the 5D I do select the outside focus point(s) for wide shots much more frequently than the 20D.
I don't manual focus because....I cannot see through that blasted viewfinder. Focus on the eyes they say........how does one do that with autofocus? With very shallow DOF I would want to (at times) be able to manually focus to place emphasis on exactly the right detail, whether it be someone's eyes, or a ring on a finger, or whatever.
> ability to use longer lenses for portraits,
Isn't it about all the same ... using a 200mm on a 5D will deliver a similar perspective as a 135mm on a 20D. What is the advantage? You'll be standing in the same spot creating a similar framing scenario with a 135mm on a 20D or a 200mm on a 5D.
Telephotos have always been preferable for portraits. You won't get the same effect with an 85 on a 5D as a 50 on a 20D, although the framing will appear the same. You're using a wider lens on the 20D....it isn't going to be quite as flattering or "pretty".
> quieter shutter.
While the 20D is loud ... the 5D is note mute by any means ... a bit lower frequency but not a Leica or even an XTi.
Well, this isn't that big of a deal-breaker, just something I've read.
> On the other hand, like Antonio so helpfully pointed out, I could buy a MAC!!!!! (Thanks, Antonio!)
We all know Antonio is great - lol ... even if he is Portuguese.
I agree!!! Antonio is great!!!
> Ok........so I'm still on the fence.
It's a win/win situation ... by any measurement (except value) the 5D is a wonderful camera ... and you won't be disappointed but, the visual difference between a 5D and 20D/30D is insignificant until you start making 16x20 sized prints. (And the 5 FPS is great on the 20D/30D ... but that probably doesn't matter to you.)
I agree 100 percent. Value is a rip off. (But....whenever do you get the "extras" on anything at a discount??? ) The base models are always the bargains. I do plan on larger prints, so that matters to me. The 5 FPS is an unfortunate sacrifice. I like 5 FPS for shooting children.......they move fast , continuously and uncontrollably!
>Thanks for your generous offer to try out your camera.
The offer was made for you to compare a 5D image to a 20D image. Bring a couple of cards and shoot apples to apples.
> But it would be great to shoot with you if you're ever in the area ..let me know!
I'm always in the area ... sorta booked for this weekend ... Friday evening gonna shoot some time exposures of LA from Mulholland Drive. Saturday/Sunday doing the Heards Garden Tour (one of those backyard fundraiser things.)
It's ok I'm tied up as well....Cinco de Mayo is also my sister's birthday... :photo ...more family stuff!
You should join LAShooters, a yahoo group. We are a loose group of photogs who shoot all the time. Usually about two times a week. We comminicate via email and critique via Smugmug, PBase, Flickr, et al. Most of what I post originated from LAShooters.
I thought about it, I even checked out the site, but it's far for me and I wouldn't be able to participate on a regular basis. I'll try to come sometime as a guest.
Thanks Gary..........as I said, I didn't want to 'debate' one sensor over the other, but it became apparent to me that the reasons for wanting a full sensor are different for different styles of shooters. I'm not very knowledgeable about this stuff, but I am very aware when reading other's posts here, that they are probably talking different styles of photography than what I like to shoot, and that's understandable. We get caught up in our own wants and needs as far as gear goes. I just was attempting to find out what it is that so many people love about the 5D. I knew the differences were mostly slight, but to some shooters small differences can be exquisite. I'm sure the speed of the new Mark iii is worth all of that money.........to some shooters. For me it holds no appeal at that price! Thanks all for your input....hope this thread will help others. :saurora
Oh, I dunno saurora, many do, maybe most. Gary sure does, and Andy talks about it in his streetshooting thread.
Like I said Sid, I don't profess to know all the answers, it's just an impression I get from a lot of the street photography I see....it quite often gives the appearance of having been shot discreetly or at least from a distance, probably because there is usually little interaction. Not Andy's though....I can see the ineraction in his work. This was a good thread, I've read it before (and forgotten it! )
Comments
Nobody has a crystal ball, but I doubt there will be a replacement for the 5D this year. If I had to hazard a guess the next bodies we will see out of Canon are a 1Ds mark III and a 1.6 crop body to replace the 30D.
Hi Gary...glad you stopped by. I forgot you had a 5D or I would have asked you about it. Thanks for the info and your thoughts on it. After reading your comments and Antonio's today, I had to go back and re-visit my own thoughts about why I thought I would like to have (not necessarily need to have!) a Canon 5D. I agree it probably isn't worth paying twice as much for as the 20D or even 30D. Each Canon line has it's own merits and (unfortunately) it's like buying a new car to me, where you like the extras on different models but they aren't all available on any one model (Canon's smart like that
If I hold out on the 5D I'll just wait and spring for he 40D!!!
Antonio, thanks for your thoughts. Dilemma? To spend or not to spend! I probably will.......I just like to give things a lot of thought before jumping off a cliff. It's too late in the week to order and get before the weekend unless I pay for overnight shipping, so I can muddle over this a few more days!!!
dak.smugmug.com
Thanks for the link Antonio. I did not purchase the downloaded review, but the free Depth of Field review was very interesting and confirmed some thoughts I had.
What does this mean? Typically, if one wishes to be physically closer to the subject, one zooms out or slaps on a shorter focal length lens and takes a step or two forward.
> higher ISO
The 5D and the 20D/30D/1DMKII series all go up to ISO 3200. The 5D and the 1D series all go down to ISO 50.
> & cropping performance
Crop in the camera not in the computer ... but seriously, the FF/12MP is an advantage in cropping but (the big but) the wider FOV will allow more distracting stuff to creep into the image ... With the APS-C sensor it is easier to see all the distracting elements because it all right there ... on the FF one has to shift their eye away from the center and check out the edges. While the 5D has a better "cropping performance" ... unless one is very dilligent on their composition, there is also a propensity for the 5D to "collect" more distracting elements along the edges.
> shallower DOF for really isolating details,
I really don't see it. I'm sure it's there but the shallower DOF isn't all that significant for the stuff I shoot. Maybe in the studio for product photography this can be used to an advantage ... but I don't see it when I compare 20D to 5D images.
> easier manual focusing (due to larger, brighter viewfinder),
So who manual focuses (except for macro)? When was the last time you manual focused ... and why? On the 5D I do select the outside focus point(s) for wide shots much more frequently than the 20D.
> ability to use longer lenses for portraits,
Isn't it about all the same ... using a 200mm on a 5D will deliver a similar perspective as a 135mm on a 20D. What is the advantage? You'll be standing in the same spot creating a similar framing scenario with a 135mm on a 20D or a 200mm on a 5D.
> quieter shutter.
While the 20D is loud ... the 5D is note mute by any means ... a bit lower frequency but not a Leica or even an XTi.
> On the other hand, like Antonio so helpfully pointed out, I could buy a MAC!!!!! (Thanks, Antonio!)
We all know Antonio is great - lol ... even if he is Portuguese.
> Ok........so I'm still on the fence.
It's a win/win situation ... by any measurement (except value) the 5D is a wonderful camera ... and you won't be disappointed but, the visual difference between a 5D and 20D/30D is insignificant until you start making 16x20 sized prints. (And the 5 FPS is great on the 20D/30D ... but that probably doesn't matter to you.)
>Thanks for your generous offer to try out your camera.
The offer was made for you to compare a 5D image to a 20D image. Bring a couple of cards and shoot apples to apples.
> But it would be great to shoot with you if you're ever in the area ..let me know!
I'm always in the area ... sorta booked for this weekend ... Friday evening gonna shoot some time exposures of LA from Mulholland Drive. Saturday/Sunday doing the Heards Garden Tour (one of those backyard fundraiser things.)
You should join LAShooters, a yahoo group. We are a loose group of photogs who shoot all the time. Usually about two times a week. We comminicate via email and critique via Smugmug, PBase, Flickr, et al. Most of what I post originated from LAShooters.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/LAShooters/
Good Luck and Good Shooting,
Gary
Unsharp at any Speed
I want to cry. :cry
I did not mean Mac but Mark II.
It would not make sense to suggest instead of a camera, a computer !
I am really sorry Seneca. :cry
Now the sentence makes sense, doesn't it ?
Oh gosh !!!
Not again !!!
I am forbiden to post for the day !
Hahahahhahaha
Unsharp at any Speed
Gary, you and I shoot totally different styles. Street shooters don't want to be physically close to people. They usually are trying to be discreet. People who want to do portraits need to communicate verbally with their subject. I'm talking physical closeness, not visual.
What I was referring to here goes with the next statement, that when cropping even using a high ISO the outcome is markedly better from what I've come to understand.
You said it, the 5D has a better cropping performance. Again, it's related to the difference in our styles. Shooting portraits I will not be as concerned about the edges as say, a landscape photog. In fact, mostly I use a high aperture and do not expect the edges (for the most part) to be critically sharp. I don't crop too closely in camera for portraits as I need to leave enought room for different sized prints. Cropping.....think wedding type shots, baby shoots, where you might want to zoom in later (in the DR) and isolate a part of that shot. I know this isn't your style, but it's mine.
In the studio or in a church....think "details"....rings, hands, eyes, ...
I don't manual focus because....I cannot see through that blasted viewfinder. Focus on the eyes they say........how does one do that with autofocus? With very shallow DOF I would want to (at times) be able to manually focus to place emphasis on exactly the right detail, whether it be someone's eyes, or a ring on a finger, or whatever.
Telephotos have always been preferable for portraits. You won't get the same effect with an 85 on a 5D as a 50 on a 20D, although the framing will appear the same. You're using a wider lens on the 20D....it isn't going to be quite as flattering or "pretty".
Well, this isn't that big of a deal-breaker, just something I've read.
I agree!!! Antonio is great!!!
I agree 100 percent. Value is a rip off. (But....whenever do you get the "extras" on anything at a discount???
It's ok I'm tied up as well....Cinco de Mayo is also my sister's birthday...
I thought about it, I even checked out the site, but it's far for me and I wouldn't be able to participate on a regular basis. I'll try to come sometime as a guest.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/LAShooters/
Good Luck and Good Shooting,
Gary[/QUOTE]
Thanks Gary..........as I said, I didn't want to 'debate' one sensor over the other, but it became apparent to me that the reasons for wanting a full sensor are different for different styles of shooters. I'm not very knowledgeable about this stuff, but I am very aware when reading other's posts here, that they are probably talking different styles of photography than what I like to shoot, and that's understandable. We get caught up in our own wants and needs as far as gear goes. I just was attempting to find out what it is that so many people love about the 5D. I knew the differences were mostly slight, but to some shooters small differences can be exquisite. I'm sure the speed of the new Mark iii is worth all of that money.........to some shooters. For me it holds no appeal at that price! Thanks all for your input....hope this thread will help others. :saurora
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
Like I said Sid, I don't profess to know all the answers, it's just an impression I get from a lot of the street photography I see....it quite often gives the appearance of having been shot discreetly or at least from a distance, probably because there is usually little interaction. Not Andy's though....I can see the ineraction in his work. This was a good thread, I've read it before (and forgotten it!