While this won't get around the fact that keywords will not work for the private/passworded albums ...
Throughout this thread I have read various comments like the one above that did not necessarily match my own experience/understanding, so I decided to do some more thorough research and experimentation. For me, this has been somewhat of a breakthrough in properly understanding the nature of this problem. We have been using similar language, but not necessarily talking about the same thing in every instance.
Here is what I found out:
First the Private Galleries topic ...
Keywords with Private Galleries:
Keywords do not work with private galleries. Keywords associated with private gallery photos do not appear in the keyword index at the bottom of the homepage.
Smugmug Search with Private Galleries:
Smugmug search omits results for private galleries.
Now the Gallery Password topic ...
Keywords with Gallery Passwords:
Keywords do not work with password-protected galleries. Keywords associated with password-protected gallery photos do not appear in the keyword index at the bottom of the homepage.
Smugmug Search with Gallery Passwords:
Smugmug search omits results for password-protected galleries.
Now the Account Password Topic ...
Keywords with Account Passwords:
I have an account password on my smugmug account, and I use keywords extensively with no problems. With an account password set, the keyword index for all my photos is still displayed at the bottom of my Smugmug homepage, and I can click on individual keywords to see the associated photos. From my experience, keywords work just fine with account-level password protection.
Smugmug Search with Account Passwords:
Smugmug search displays matching keywords even when an account password is set. When clicking on the matching keyword, I am able to then see the associated photos even if I never enter my account password. I believe this is the reason why Google is able to generate backdoor links into my password-protected smugmug account.
So to summarize:
Private galleries and password-protected galleries both seem to provide similar levels of privacy. The main difference is that private galleries are not displayed at all, whereas password-protected galleries are displayed but require a viewing password for entry.
Account level password protection seems to have its own rules, especially concerning keywords. This provides a backdoor that Google is able to exploit for access into password-protected smugmug accounts. Not sure if this is by design or mistake, but I suspect it is a bug that I am taking advantage of in my smugmug customization.
Although this helps me better understand the nature of the problem, it still does not provide a resolution. (But as any 12-step program will tell you, recognition of the problem is the first step - ).
These are my observations only - not necessarily the definitive word. Please let me know if you have encountered something different.
I believe that Smugmug needs to elevate this as something that is BROKEN and unacceptable and not something the is a feature request. This issue affects everyone. The constant rebuffing from Smugmug is not encouraging. I also wonder if there's underlying reasons other than technical that Smugmugis not disclosing.
True, professional users probably want information regarding their photos and galleries spread out across the net, but for the vast majority of non-professional customers this is something I really doubt they want.
I like Smugmug. No, I LOVE Smugmug. When I was searching for an on-line photo sharing site I found this site had pretty much everything I wanted. I also like the involvement of the Smugmug team in these forums. I find the keyword searches to be one of the most powerful features but its useless if I have to lock down my galleries.
I've also run into problems where I had to remove photos or lock down galleries because of requests from people in those photos. They too didn't like the privacy problems. Hoo. Ray.
Unless Smugmug commits to actually trying to fix this problem I too am going to call it quits. My privacy, and that of my family and friends, is more important.
Thanks for the suggestion - been there, done that. We already have an account password. The problem is that Google search still shows backdoor links to my password-protected photos. I obviously don't want to further publicize those backdoor URLs here, so I won't be more specific. However, I have communicated directly with smugmug support about the details so that they are at least aware of the backdoor access issue. On the plus side, account passwords appear to be a completely effective solution for Smugmug global searches.
Given current smugmug technology, private galleries seem to be the only real solution. If it is necessary to impose restrictive access controls (i.e. private galleries) in order to shield my photos from Google's prying eyes, I am then left to answer a few fundamental questions. Does that kind of access restriction defeat the whole purpose of photo sharing? Is it worth $50 per year to host photos that cannot be easily shared? As I said before, this is a tough issue for our family. We have invested a lot of time and energy in building and customizing a nice smugmug site for our family photos. Aside from the privacy issues, we are thrilled with the entire smugmug offering. We have promoted smugmug to many friends and family members. However, when the photos and names of our very young children end up plastered all over Google searches - well, that is kind of a trump card for us. In addition to regular Google search, there is also a separate Google IMAGE search. Try out Google IMAGE search - it can be very jarring to learn that the names and associated face photos of your young children are so easily accessible to the entire world. My wife almost started crying when she saw the search results come back. Thus, you can see that we are faced with some very difficult decisions.
Is there likely to be any movement on this issue? I also would like to see a Google 'cloak' or simply an option to switch off the galleries showing up in a google search.
I also discovered that even with an account level password that google does index the keywords & so people can see my photos without a password!
I highly douby Smugmug will move on this. It is very evident that they do not really care about privacy as they see it more as a 'feature request' and not a 'requirement'.
I had been very pro-Smugmug but the lack of Smugmug involvement on these security problems have soured me. I have been steering people away and have been looking for a better alternative...
Is there likely to be any movement on this issue? I also would like to see a Google 'cloak' or simply an option to switch off the galleries showing up in a google search.
I also discovered that even with an account level password that google does index the keywords & so people can see my photos without a password!
No keywords
I think I will remove all keywords from my photos before I upload them. That will make it more difficult for the public to find my photos. Friends who I send the link to, will be able to view my photos without a password but will not be able to do searches.
Question: Will the data in my captions still be searchable?
My privacy, and that of my family and friends, is more important.
Hi jberd,
Thanks again for posting - what I can tell you is that this is still a very active issue. Stay tuned please.... And, thanks for your continued patience, and for being our customer.
Another vote for this issue
I also see this as an important issue. There should be middle ground somewhere between private and public galleries.
The account password protection seems like a pretty good choice. That is, if it actually does keep pictures from showing up in Google as it should. Does it do this? It seems like there are conflicting reports here. What is the point of this option if it doesn't protect from search engines? I would guess that the number of people that find pictures through google search is much much greater than the number that find pictures through smugmug search. I actually wouldn't care if my pictures came up in smugmug search, but having them exposed in google and google images bothers me.
There is also the option of using all private galleries with sharegroups, but then you have to update the sharegroup when ever a new gallery is added. You also lose the tree structure of the homepage. I don't want to give all that up.
Search isn't important to me. If all my pictures could be protected from google, I'd be fine with not having a search feature. My galleries are organized enough that it's not critical for me. From all the comments from smugmug here, it seems that this is possible with a small amount of difficulty.
Finally, I like google maps. I want a mixture of public and private galleries so that I can use them. So, even if the account password option worked as promised, I wouldn't want to use it.
I also see this as an important issue. There should be middle ground somewhere between private and public galleries.
The account password protection seems like a pretty good choice. That is, if it actually does keep pictures from showing up in Google as it should. Does it do this? It seems like there are conflicting reports here. What is the point of this option if it doesn't protect from search engines? I would guess that the number of people that find pictures through google search is much much greater than the number that find pictures through smugmug search. I actually wouldn't care if my pictures came up in smugmug search, but having them exposed in google and google images bothers me.
There is also the option of using all private galleries with sharegroups, but then you have to update the sharegroup when ever a new gallery is added. You also lose the tree structure of the homepage. I don't want to give all that up.
Search isn't important to me. If all my pictures could be protected from google, I'd be fine with not having a search feature. My galleries are organized enough that it's not critical for me. From all the comments from smugmug here, it seems that this is possible with a small amount of difficulty.
Finally, I like google maps. I want a mixture of public and private galleries so that I can use them. So, even if the account password option worked as promised, I wouldn't want to use it.
Hi Zanthrus - thanks for adding your voice to this thread - we really appreciate you taking the time to do so. I'll make sure the engineers see this thread for sure!
RE: Google maps - I'm sorry to say, we can't allow the maps feature on private galleries without violating the terms of our agreement with Google. I wish I had a better answer for you on that.
Upon looking into this further. I am able to duplicate gblotter's problem. This is a *BUG*. There is no other way to put it.
Steps to duplicate.
1. Have an account with at least one picture with a keyword.
2. Set a viewing password on the account.
3. Close the browser and clear all cookies. (I used a completely different browser to be sure.)
4. Go to the homepage of the smugmug account. Say myusername.smugmug.com
5. It will ask for a password. Don't enter one.
6. Instead, go to myusername.smugmug.com/keyword/
7. You can see all the keywords.
8. Click on any keyword and you can see all the pictures.
Through experimentation, I have discovered that enabling an account password does not accomplish this goal. My keywords and captions are still visible to Google searches and smugmug global searches even with an account password enabled. An account password seems to be effective only for restricting access through the front door. Backdoor access remains wide open via direct URL from Google.
From what I can tell, hiding keywords and captions from Google searches and smugmug global searches is only possible by creating private galleries. For me, that kinda defeats the whole purpose of photo sharing.
Are you sure about this? If so, this is a *bug* and not expected behavior. Google cannot get to your pages to index them, so your pages will fall out of their index the next time they crawl.
As for smugmug, we check for user passwords and drop your results automagically from the search engine. (At least, that's what it's supposed to do and what we tested it to do. Bugs do happen, though .
There you go, it's a bug, and we just reproduced it. The password does protect access to any of my galleries or direct links to pictures. But any picture that has a keyword can still be accessed from both the user keyword page or the smugmug search page.
This really makes sense though. From what everyone at smugmug was saying, it is impossible to have private galleries with keywords, but account passwords claimed to do just that.
In conclusion, I first looked at smugmug as a Christmas present to my parents. I got an account for testing, and I'm keeping it. Smugmug is really cool. But I'm unsure if I want to give it to my parents. These privacy issues concern my, and while I can find ways to work around them (private galleries and sharegroups). That's a lot to explain to my parents. Here's how I'd like it to work:
My parents just upload pictures with "Send to Smugmug", and everyone that knows the URL (username.smugmug.com) can now see the pictures.
But, if we want those pictures to be private, I have to explain to them how they have to check private in Send to Smugmug, and then they need to visit the album, copy the URL, send the URL to everyone. Or, add it to a sharegroup, and send the sharegroup URL.
It's just so much more complicated than it needs to be. If private accounts actually worked, that would be all they'd need. Even then though, the only reason for the password would be to keep search engines out. Which could just as easily be done with a meta tag. The password for the account would probably be someting like "password" and the hint would be "enter "password"". So, why do we need to make all our users jump through that hoop just to keep search engines out?
There you go, it's a bug, and we just reproduced it.
Thanks for posting, zanthrus. Onethumb is aware of it. I don't have word on if/when this will be fixed, but you could keep an eye on (subscribe to) our release notes blog for updates.
Thanks for posting, zanthrus. Onethumb is aware of it.
Thanks for the reply. It's nice to know its getting looked at. I'm just trying to spark some life into this thread. It didn't seem like it was going anywhere, and I think this is an important issue for a lot of users.
Thanks for the reply. It's nice to know its getting looked at. I'm just trying to spark some life into this thread. It didn't seem like it was going anywhere, and I think this is an important issue for a lot of users.
Everyone's aware of it. In fact, we were discussing it this week...
Everyone's aware of it. In fact, we were discussing it this week...
OK, so I waited as long as I could (a full month) before I had to ask if there is any news on this issue? I recently signed up, and having this work would be most excellent for how I would like to use smugmug.
OK, so I waited as long as I could (a full month) before I had to ask if there is any news on this issue? I recently signed up, and having this work would be most excellent for how I would like to use smugmug.
I'm on the same boat here. I've been watching this topic since probably 4 months, and I've forgotten to check back on it till now.
I took all my photos and site down last year, and I feel dumb for overlooking this and even upgrading as a power user, as this was one of the reasons I didn't like flickr for this purpose, besides the fact that I couldn't customize my galleries.
I have looked into and have actually set up my own gallery on my own hosting site, which I have all the control I need to, though I do not have unlimited space there, so I can't share my full resolution photos directly for my family to print them.
Plus I like smugmugs interface better than the one I have set up(with Gallery v2).
I thought this was a brilliant idea, and one that may even generate more business for you guys, as the same post said:
Basically have a spinoff site for families and the like, with these privacy issues solved, but with all the smugmug features we have available now.
"... So my wife's idea was that smugmug could spinoff a new/separate website for families and other folks who are concerned with privacy issues. It could use all the same underlying technology as the existing smugmug except that meta tags and robot.txt files would be set for maximum privacy. As I think about it more, this could also be a good business opportunity for smugmug to branch out and develop sites with functionality that is more specific to the home photographer and the professional photographer. Isn't that what other businesses do all the time? - fragment their own product line to achieve maximum market penetration ..."
thanks 'blotter.. i'm fwding this to the smugmug team.
I'm in the same camp as others who love the keyword functionality smugmug provides, but cringes at the "invasive potential" provided to identity thieves through public galleries...I'm still not entirely convinced that the everyone at smugmug "gets it" for casual/personal users.
I'm not a geek...META means very little to me...(probably should, but likely won't, learn "all there is to know about it"..which isn't smugmug's problem per se, but is something smugmug needs to accept as a reality for what I'm sure is an important segment of it's "paying" customer base...and dismissing the concern with a "sorry, but happy to refund your money" response misses the point entirely.
I want to be able to use keyword functionality to find/select MY OWN PICTURES according the criteria (keywords) I choose any time I want. Further I wouldn't mind allowing INVITED guests (friends, family) the ability to similarly find/select MY "non-private" images.
As I understand it, though, the minute I make a gallery or my entire site "private" by adding a password...keyword search functionality is in effect, disabled.
To me, adding a password for my invited guests is preferred...I frankly do not want anyone other than people I invite to have access...but "privitizing" my own galleries defeats the most significant functionality smugmug has to offer to casual/personal users...the ability to search one's picture library for a specific selection on an ad hoc basis.
There's always an element of "piling-on" regarding a hot-button issue like this. But I worry about smugmug users even less computer saavy than I, and therefore even less "aware" of how at-risk they might be using smugmug to "safely store and secure" an "unlimited number" of thier priceless/personal images. Doesn't that count for something?
If "the risk" was clearly communicated to the smugmug user community (as in on the smugmug homepage), my guess is smugmug would find out very quickly that this "affected" user pool is bigger than it now believes. No, I do not want a refund...I want smugmug to find a way to address this. Perhaps the suggestion of the previous poster is they way...separate the products between pro's and "just plain folks".
If "the risk" was clearly communicated to the smugmug user community (as in on the smugmug homepage), my guess is smugmug would find out very quickly that this "affected" user pool is bigger than it now believes. No, I do not want a refund...I want smugmug to find a way to address this. Perhaps the suggestion of the previous poster is they way...separate the products between pro's and "just plain folks".
PapaJay
Hi PapaJay,
Thanks so much for telling us exactly how you feel about this.
I think we are upfront about security and keywords, but we're always interested in how we can improve on this...
We tell customers that keywords enable folks to find their photos. We say that they don't work in private or passworded galleries. We even say that google *will* find them if they are in public galleries.
I don't think there's anything that tells the user -- at least on the page about using a password to protect your site -- that if you use keywords your site will be able to be found by google (and that a backdoor into the site, without the use of a password, may be created). I'd prefer to be able to have my whole site protected and still be able to use keywords, but will settle for the assurance that my site is fully protected from search engines. I think it is now, with a site-wide password, and no keywords. But, I didn't know that this was the way to do it without looking through posts here (and after I had added some keywords and, to my surprise, found my site was listed on google and could be accessed without a password by following the keyword links). If the use of keywords can't be reconciled with password protected galleries, I think that there should be a specific warning that such use could expose the galleries on both the pages instructing about the use of keywords and those instructing about passwords and privacy.
I don't mean to be too negative -- I love the site and think you guys do an amazing job continually improving it and responding to your customers. Nevertheless, like the others who have posted here, I would like to see a bit more privacy protection options added in the near future.
We tell customers that keywords enable folks to find their photos. We say that they don't work in private or passworded galleries. We even say that google *will* find them if they are in public galleries.
I don't think there's anything that tells the user -- at least on the page about using a password to protect your site -- that if you use keywords your site will be able to be found by google (and that a backdoor into the site, without the use of a password, may be created). I'd prefer to be able to have my whole site protected and still be able to use keywords, but will settle for the assurance that my site is fully protected from search engines. I think it is now, with a site-wide password, and no keywords. But, I didn't know that this was the way to do it without looking through posts here (and after I had added some keywords and, to my surprise, found my site was listed on google and could be accessed without a password by following the keyword links). If the use of keywords can't be reconciled with password protected galleries, I think that there should be a specific warning that such use could expose the galleries on both the pages instructing about the use of keywords and those instructing about passwords and privacy.
I don't mean to be too negative -- I love the site and think you guys do an amazing job continually improving it and responding to your customers. Nevertheless, like the others who have posted here, I would like to see a bit more privacy protection options added in the near future.
When a password is set:
A lock icon appears next to your name on your home page.
Your name, galleries, photos and keywords are removed from smugmug's site-wide search. This can take a few minutes.
.
.
(some text snipped)
.
Q: Does this foil Google?
A: Yes. Your name, bio, gallery names, etc., should not appear in Google's search unless you place them on non-smugmug pages.
Privacy: Your visitors cannot see a private gallery unless you have given them its Internet address (URL). It will not appear in smugmug's search, nor in search engines like Google, nor by searching keywords or browsing subjects.
If I click the "See photo in gallery" link, it prompts for a password. This doesn't seem in line with the Gotcha quoted above. Can you explain?
- Phil
You can even go one further. From that picture you can go to their homepage, (http://friedzone.smugmug.com/) and if you add "keyword/" to that URL you can navigate ALL their pictures by keyword.
The following quotes are taken from the page describing site wide passwords:
2. Your name, galleries, photos and keywords are removed from smugmug's site-wide search. This can take a few minutes.
Q: Does this foil Google? A: Yes. Your name, bio, gallery names, etc., should not appear in Google's search unless you place them on non-smugmug pages.
Both these statements are clearly incorrect. There needs to be some mention that using keywords will make your pictures accessible to everyone.
You can even go one further. From that picture you can go to their homepage, (http://friedzone.smugmug.com/) and if you add "keyword/" to that URL you can navigate ALL their pictures by keyword.
Zanthrus speaks the truth. By going to http://friedzone.smugmug.com/keyword I can see any photo in that smugmug account even though there is an account password. (to be more specific, I can see any photo with a keyword assigned to it). Keywords are such a huge wide-open backdoor into my account, that I decided to remove my account password altogether (password was inhibiting access for my friends/family, and not really providing privacy protection against undesired eyes).
Don't use keywords if you have concerns about photo privacy.
In my opinion, Smugmug should state it in clear language using those exact words.
I think the problem is that there is no warning on the page about site security that you link to that says something like: "Please Note: Even if you set a site-wide password, your photos may be searchable by Google - and your password protection may be broken - if you use keywords or if they are incorporated into your photos by the software you use to process your photos before uploading them to Smugmug."
As it now stands, it is not clear to someone who reads the page about site security that their site's security will be jeopardized if there is a keyword in one of their photos. There is no warning that keywords override the password security on the site security page and, even on the other pages, there's not a full explanation of how password security and keywords interact, other than a statement that keywords have no effect on password protected albums or private albums. That is fine, but it is not the same thing as telling someone that if they use a keyword in a "public" album (but one protected by a site's password), it will provide a back door around the password protection on the site and open up the site to being found in google and other searches.
It's a serious issue for people concerned with privacy and if it can't be fixed (by fixed, I mean preventing the use of keywords from opening up a backdoor to a password protected site and allowing some sort of code that someone can add to their site to prevent it from being picked up by google and other engines - I know you can add a code on the page customization field, but it conflicts with code that can't be changed) -- I think it's only fair to provide people with an explicit warning on the page about site security (the most likely place for someone who is concerned with this issue to look).
If I read your post right, you'd like us to say more, or say it differently. Thanks again for the feedback.
Hi Andy,
I fell victim to a "time-out" upon hitting the submit button when replying to your response to my earlier diatribe on this topic...apologies if I sounded too much like a whiner. Like Steve posted, I love the Smugmug site.
In my aborted reply I essentially acknowledged that all of what you said is true, and is on the smugmug site. BUT, it tends to be a bit "techy" (I know you probably do not think so, but you are an expert and deal with this stuff on a technical level every day) and the whole issue of privacy vs. search/keyword functionality isn't clearly explained in lay person lingo in one place on the site...you have to look for it, and in order to do that, you have to know what you're looking for.
I suggested the following (or facsimile thereof) be word-smithed, and given a prominent, easy-to-find, home on the Smugmug site:
[CAUTION: Your Smugmug galleries are accessible to anyone connected to the Internet via a web-browser (whether you are logged-in or not) 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Your galleries and the words within them (including Title words and keywords) are also accessible to search engines (like Google). Example: You post a picture of your mother as a child, along with her maiden name (which, by the way, you recently provided to your bank for "security purposes" on your savings and checking accounts)....well, you get the picture...so much for "security".
You can avoid all this by making your galleries "Private" instead of "Public", and password-protecting them. The downside in doing so is that you lose the ability to use "keyword" searches to find all of your pictures of "Aunt Mable" (which is a VERY cool capability when you have thousands of pictures in your library). So, caveat emptor...complete and total privacy is achievable, but comes at a "price".]
I know...too wordy....but even a non-techy will understand it, and I'm sure some attorney will want to re-write so no one can understand it anyway.
Respectfully,
PapaJay
g1r2e2g's post from last year (page 2, post #17) is exactly how I feel about the browse feature. Plenty of people want to share their lives with the entire world, I would only like to share mine with friends and direct visitors to <mynickname>.smugmug.com ... and making all the galleries private destroys the usefulness of smugmug.
g1r2e2g's post from last year (page 2, post #17) is exactly how I feel about the browse feature. Plenty of people want to share their lives with the entire world, I would only like to share mine with friends and direct visitors to <mynickname>.smugmug.com ... and making all the galleries private destroys the usefulness of smugmug.
onethumb - please, please, please fix this!
-Shaun
Hi Shaun,
Just to be clear on exactly what you are asking, are you looking for an account-wide toggle to make all your galleries non-browsable/non-searchable from anywhere on smugmug outside nickname.smugmug.com ?
Comments
Here is what I found out:
First the Private Galleries topic ...
Keywords with Private Galleries:
Keywords do not work with private galleries. Keywords associated with private gallery photos do not appear in the keyword index at the bottom of the homepage.
Smugmug Search with Private Galleries:
Smugmug search omits results for private galleries.
Now the Gallery Password topic ...
Keywords with Gallery Passwords:
Keywords do not work with password-protected galleries. Keywords associated with password-protected gallery photos do not appear in the keyword index at the bottom of the homepage.
Smugmug Search with Gallery Passwords:
Smugmug search omits results for password-protected galleries.
Now the Account Password Topic ...
Keywords with Account Passwords:
I have an account password on my smugmug account, and I use keywords extensively with no problems. With an account password set, the keyword index for all my photos is still displayed at the bottom of my Smugmug homepage, and I can click on individual keywords to see the associated photos. From my experience, keywords work just fine with account-level password protection.
Smugmug Search with Account Passwords:
Smugmug search displays matching keywords even when an account password is set. When clicking on the matching keyword, I am able to then see the associated photos even if I never enter my account password. I believe this is the reason why Google is able to generate backdoor links into my password-protected smugmug account.
So to summarize:
Private galleries and password-protected galleries both seem to provide similar levels of privacy. The main difference is that private galleries are not displayed at all, whereas password-protected galleries are displayed but require a viewing password for entry.
Account level password protection seems to have its own rules, especially concerning keywords. This provides a backdoor that Google is able to exploit for access into password-protected smugmug accounts. Not sure if this is by design or mistake, but I suspect it is a bug that I am taking advantage of in my smugmug customization.
Although this helps me better understand the nature of the problem, it still does not provide a resolution. (But as any 12-step program will tell you, recognition of the problem is the first step
These are my observations only - not necessarily the definitive word. Please let me know if you have encountered something different.
I believe that Smugmug needs to elevate this as something that is BROKEN and unacceptable and not something the is a feature request. This issue affects everyone. The constant rebuffing from Smugmug is not encouraging. I also wonder if there's underlying reasons other than technical that Smugmugis not disclosing.
True, professional users probably want information regarding their photos and galleries spread out across the net, but for the vast majority of non-professional customers this is something I really doubt they want.
I like Smugmug. No, I LOVE Smugmug. When I was searching for an on-line photo sharing site I found this site had pretty much everything I wanted. I also like the involvement of the Smugmug team in these forums. I find the keyword searches to be one of the most powerful features but its useless if I have to lock down my galleries.
I've also run into problems where I had to remove photos or lock down galleries because of requests from people in those photos. They too didn't like the privacy problems. Hoo. Ray.
Unless Smugmug commits to actually trying to fix this problem I too am going to call it quits. My privacy, and that of my family and friends, is more important.
I also discovered that even with an account level password that google does index the keywords & so people can see my photos without a password!
I had been very pro-Smugmug but the lack of Smugmug involvement on these security problems have soured me. I have been steering people away and have been looking for a better alternative...
I think I will remove all keywords from my photos before I upload them. That will make it more difficult for the public to find my photos. Friends who I send the link to, will be able to view my photos without a password but will not be able to do searches.
Question: Will the data in my captions still be searchable?
Hi jberd,
Thanks again for posting - what I can tell you is that this is still a very active issue. Stay tuned please.... And, thanks for your continued patience, and for being our customer.
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I also see this as an important issue. There should be middle ground somewhere between private and public galleries.
The account password protection seems like a pretty good choice. That is, if it actually does keep pictures from showing up in Google as it should. Does it do this? It seems like there are conflicting reports here. What is the point of this option if it doesn't protect from search engines? I would guess that the number of people that find pictures through google search is much much greater than the number that find pictures through smugmug search. I actually wouldn't care if my pictures came up in smugmug search, but having them exposed in google and google images bothers me.
There is also the option of using all private galleries with sharegroups, but then you have to update the sharegroup when ever a new gallery is added. You also lose the tree structure of the homepage. I don't want to give all that up.
Search isn't important to me. If all my pictures could be protected from google, I'd be fine with not having a search feature. My galleries are organized enough that it's not critical for me. From all the comments from smugmug here, it seems that this is possible with a small amount of difficulty.
Finally, I like google maps. I want a mixture of public and private galleries so that I can use them. So, even if the account password option worked as promised, I wouldn't want to use it.
Hi Zanthrus - thanks for adding your voice to this thread - we really appreciate you taking the time to do so. I'll make sure the engineers see this thread for sure!
RE: Google maps - I'm sorry to say, we can't allow the maps feature on private galleries without violating the terms of our agreement with Google. I wish I had a better answer for you on that.
All the best,
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Steps to duplicate.
1. Have an account with at least one picture with a keyword.
2. Set a viewing password on the account.
3. Close the browser and clear all cookies. (I used a completely different browser to be sure.)
4. Go to the homepage of the smugmug account. Say myusername.smugmug.com
5. It will ask for a password. Don't enter one.
6. Instead, go to myusername.smugmug.com/keyword/
7. You can see all the keywords.
8. Click on any keyword and you can see all the pictures.
See a picture from my password protected account here: http://www.smugmug.com/keyword/testingthisthing
There you go, it's a bug, and we just reproduced it. The password does protect access to any of my galleries or direct links to pictures. But any picture that has a keyword can still be accessed from both the user keyword page or the smugmug search page.
This really makes sense though. From what everyone at smugmug was saying, it is impossible to have private galleries with keywords, but account passwords claimed to do just that.
In conclusion, I first looked at smugmug as a Christmas present to my parents. I got an account for testing, and I'm keeping it. Smugmug is really cool. But I'm unsure if I want to give it to my parents. These privacy issues concern my, and while I can find ways to work around them (private galleries and sharegroups). That's a lot to explain to my parents. Here's how I'd like it to work:
My parents just upload pictures with "Send to Smugmug", and everyone that knows the URL (username.smugmug.com) can now see the pictures.
But, if we want those pictures to be private, I have to explain to them how they have to check private in Send to Smugmug, and then they need to visit the album, copy the URL, send the URL to everyone. Or, add it to a sharegroup, and send the sharegroup URL.
It's just so much more complicated than it needs to be. If private accounts actually worked, that would be all they'd need. Even then though, the only reason for the password would be to keep search engines out. Which could just as easily be done with a meta tag. The password for the account would probably be someting like "password" and the hint would be "enter "password"". So, why do we need to make all our users jump through that hoop just to keep search engines out?
Thanks for posting, zanthrus. Onethumb is aware of it. I don't have word on if/when this will be fixed, but you could keep an eye on (subscribe to) our release notes blog for updates.
Thanks again,
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Everyone's aware of it. In fact, we were discussing it this week...
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OK, so I waited as long as I could (a full month) before I had to ask if there is any news on this issue? I recently signed up, and having this work would be most excellent for how I would like to use smugmug.
I took all my photos and site down last year, and I feel dumb for overlooking this and even upgrading as a power user, as this was one of the reasons I didn't like flickr for this purpose, besides the fact that I couldn't customize my galleries.
I have looked into and have actually set up my own gallery on my own hosting site, which I have all the control I need to, though I do not have unlimited space there, so I can't share my full resolution photos directly for my family to print them.
Plus I like smugmugs interface better than the one I have set up(with Gallery v2).
I thought this was a brilliant idea, and one that may even generate more business for you guys, as the same post said:
Basically have a spinoff site for families and the like, with these privacy issues solved, but with all the smugmug features we have available now.
Original post
I'm in the same camp as others who love the keyword functionality smugmug provides, but cringes at the "invasive potential" provided to identity thieves through public galleries...I'm still not entirely convinced that the everyone at smugmug "gets it" for casual/personal users.
I'm not a geek...META means very little to me...(probably should, but likely won't, learn "all there is to know about it"..which isn't smugmug's problem per se, but is something smugmug needs to accept as a reality for what I'm sure is an important segment of it's "paying" customer base...and dismissing the concern with a "sorry, but happy to refund your money" response misses the point entirely.
I want to be able to use keyword functionality to find/select MY OWN PICTURES according the criteria (keywords) I choose any time I want. Further I wouldn't mind allowing INVITED guests (friends, family) the ability to similarly find/select MY "non-private" images.
As I understand it, though, the minute I make a gallery or my entire site "private" by adding a password...keyword search functionality is in effect, disabled.
To me, adding a password for my invited guests is preferred...I frankly do not want anyone other than people I invite to have access...but "privitizing" my own galleries defeats the most significant functionality smugmug has to offer to casual/personal users...the ability to search one's picture library for a specific selection on an ad hoc basis.
There's always an element of "piling-on" regarding a hot-button issue like this. But I worry about smugmug users even less computer saavy than I, and therefore even less "aware" of how at-risk they might be using smugmug to "safely store and secure" an "unlimited number" of thier priceless/personal images. Doesn't that count for something?
If "the risk" was clearly communicated to the smugmug user community (as in on the smugmug homepage), my guess is smugmug would find out very quickly that this "affected" user pool is bigger than it now believes. No, I do not want a refund...I want smugmug to find a way to address this. Perhaps the suggestion of the previous poster is they way...separate the products between pro's and "just plain folks".
PapaJay
Hi PapaJay,
Thanks so much for telling us exactly how you feel about this.
I think we are upfront about security and keywords, but we're always interested in how we can improve on this...
http://www.smugmug.com/help/site-security
http://www.smugmug.com/help/private-albums
http://www.smugmug.com/help/keywords-tags
We tell customers that keywords enable folks to find their photos. We say that they don't work in private or passworded galleries. We even say that google *will* find them if they are in public galleries.
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Andy,
I don't think there's anything that tells the user -- at least on the page about using a password to protect your site -- that if you use keywords your site will be able to be found by google (and that a backdoor into the site, without the use of a password, may be created). I'd prefer to be able to have my whole site protected and still be able to use keywords, but will settle for the assurance that my site is fully protected from search engines. I think it is now, with a site-wide password, and no keywords. But, I didn't know that this was the way to do it without looking through posts here (and after I had added some keywords and, to my surprise, found my site was listed on google and could be accessed without a password by following the keyword links). If the use of keywords can't be reconciled with password protected galleries, I think that there should be a specific warning that such use could expose the galleries on both the pages instructing about the use of keywords and those instructing about passwords and privacy.
I don't mean to be too negative -- I love the site and think you guys do an amazing job continually improving it and responding to your customers. Nevertheless, like the others who have posted here, I would like to see a bit more privacy protection options added in the near future.
Thanks.
Steve
Thanks Steve.
Currently we say this:
And we say this:
And this:
If I read your post right, you'd like us to say more, or say it differently. Thanks again for the feedback.
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So I have a question. Here is a photo I found via the keyword search:
http://www.smugmug.com/keyword/maternity/10/54079260
If I click the "See photo in gallery" link, it prompts for a password. This doesn't seem in line with the Gotcha quoted above. Can you explain?
- Phil
http://www.philmaland.com/
The following quotes are taken from the page describing site wide passwords:
Both these statements are clearly incorrect. There needs to be some mention that using keywords will make your pictures accessible to everyone.
Phil, those photos are not in a password protected album.
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Zanthrus speaks the truth. By going to http://friedzone.smugmug.com/keyword I can see any photo in that smugmug account even though there is an account password. (to be more specific, I can see any photo with a keyword assigned to it). Keywords are such a huge wide-open backdoor into my account, that I decided to remove my account password altogether (password was inhibiting access for my friends/family, and not really providing privacy protection against undesired eyes).
Don't use keywords if you have concerns about photo privacy.
In my opinion, Smugmug should state it in clear language using those exact words.
I think the problem is that there is no warning on the page about site security that you link to that says something like: "Please Note: Even if you set a site-wide password, your photos may be searchable by Google - and your password protection may be broken - if you use keywords or if they are incorporated into your photos by the software you use to process your photos before uploading them to Smugmug."
As it now stands, it is not clear to someone who reads the page about site security that their site's security will be jeopardized if there is a keyword in one of their photos. There is no warning that keywords override the password security on the site security page and, even on the other pages, there's not a full explanation of how password security and keywords interact, other than a statement that keywords have no effect on password protected albums or private albums. That is fine, but it is not the same thing as telling someone that if they use a keyword in a "public" album (but one protected by a site's password), it will provide a back door around the password protection on the site and open up the site to being found in google and other searches.
It's a serious issue for people concerned with privacy and if it can't be fixed (by fixed, I mean preventing the use of keywords from opening up a backdoor to a password protected site and allowing some sort of code that someone can add to their site to prevent it from being picked up by google and other engines - I know you can add a code on the page customization field, but it conflicts with code that can't be changed) -- I think it's only fair to provide people with an explicit warning on the page about site security (the most likely place for someone who is concerned with this issue to look).
Thanks.
Steve
Thank you, Steve, and the other posters above, too - we're always looking at this. Appreciate the direct, honest feedback.
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My pictures need to be for family / friends, not Google.
We need to search the pictures, not Google....
Hi Andy,
I fell victim to a "time-out" upon hitting the submit button when replying to your response to my earlier diatribe on this topic...apologies if I sounded too much like a whiner. Like Steve posted, I love the Smugmug site.
In my aborted reply I essentially acknowledged that all of what you said is true, and is on the smugmug site. BUT, it tends to be a bit "techy" (I know you probably do not think so, but you are an expert and deal with this stuff on a technical level every day) and the whole issue of privacy vs. search/keyword functionality isn't clearly explained in lay person lingo in one place on the site...you have to look for it, and in order to do that, you have to know what you're looking for.
I suggested the following (or facsimile thereof) be word-smithed, and given a prominent, easy-to-find, home on the Smugmug site:
[CAUTION: Your Smugmug galleries are accessible to anyone connected to the Internet via a web-browser (whether you are logged-in or not) 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Your galleries and the words within them (including Title words and keywords) are also accessible to search engines (like Google). Example: You post a picture of your mother as a child, along with her maiden name (which, by the way, you recently provided to your bank for "security purposes" on your savings and checking accounts)....well, you get the picture...so much for "security".
You can avoid all this by making your galleries "Private" instead of "Public", and password-protecting them. The downside in doing so is that you lose the ability to use "keyword" searches to find all of your pictures of "Aunt Mable" (which is a VERY cool capability when you have thousands of pictures in your library). So, caveat emptor...complete and total privacy is achievable, but comes at a "price".]
I know...too wordy....but even a non-techy will understand it, and I'm sure some attorney will want to re-write so no one can understand it anyway.
Respectfully,
PapaJay
Hi, PapaJay - many thanks for taking the time to make this post. We really appreciate it.
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onethumb - please, please, please fix this!
-Shaun
Hi Shaun,
Just to be clear on exactly what you are asking, are you looking for an account-wide toggle to make all your galleries non-browsable/non-searchable from anywhere on smugmug outside nickname.smugmug.com ?
-Ben