First Time Sports Tournament Photography - Need (Quick) Help!
BigHotShot
Registered Users Posts: 37 Big grins
New to SM and new to professional photography, though I've been shooting since the dark (room) ages. I've started a new photo business specializing in youth sports. My kids are into sports so my passion (and skill) has grown with them. I get to share this new photography project with my daughter, making it all the more special.
I have a million questions but first this one: what is a typical arrangement for a tournament? A tournament director just e-mailed me and asked me to send my "typical agreement". Of course, saying, 'uh, I've never done this before' doesn't exactly present well. I'd really like to get the tournament (but not give away the store).
A little (quick) help? Thanks.
www.bighotshot.com
I have a million questions but first this one: what is a typical arrangement for a tournament? A tournament director just e-mailed me and asked me to send my "typical agreement". Of course, saying, 'uh, I've never done this before' doesn't exactly present well. I'd really like to get the tournament (but not give away the store).
A little (quick) help? Thanks.
www.bighotshot.com
0
Comments
How much do you know about your local market -
Some tournaments allow the photog to go completely on spec. Some actually expect the photog to pay them to have exclusivity. Some are looking for a percentage of the proceeds.
Are you set up to do on site printing? If not, your opportunity for sales is greatly diminished.
Try to get dragon (Gary from Detroit) to answer this one, because he has real, and recent experience.
ann
My Galleries My Photography BLOG
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Welcome to the forum. Let me first start out by asking some questions. These will help me give you an answer to please respond asap. What state are you in? What kind of tournatment are you looking at? Is it a new or established tournament? Do you know how much competition you have on this?
Let me know the answers and I promise you at some point today (I am in the middle of a business conference) I will give you the best answer I can. And like Ann said, This is something I have done a fair amount of recently.
Gary :dragon
www.zxstudios.com
http://creativedragonstudios.smugmug.com
Quick facts:
* Midwest/Great Plains
* 2 established soccer tournaments; one is high school only (about 40 teams last year) and the other is all ages (about 50 teams last year)
* Soccer is very popular here. These families are paying monthly dues ($75-100) to be on these club teams. Still, do high school parents buy pics?
* Not sure how much, if any, competition. They had no photographer for their last tournament and had problems with the one before. Plus, my daughter has played in their tournaments so they have expressed an interest in working with me.
* That said, I'm excited to get my new business up and running and don't want to miss this chance.
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Ramblings About Me
As a parent who has been to millions of these tournaments, I like this approach. One, I know it works. When I see a good pic of my kid, how could I not buy it. Second, it's pretty fast. By the end of the tournament, the last thing I want to do is wait in a line. I've walked past photo booths as long lines of people waited for prints (or worse, waited for an on-screen slideshow to proof their kids' pics and then waited in line for a print).
Here's my math: About 50 pics per team (~3 per player), maybe more. Overnight print price? $0.15? If so, $7.50 cost to print 1 team. Photo sale price $5. Thus you'd need to sell 1 1/2 pics per team to break even (on the print expense only). Would this method generate 1 1/2 sales per 18 kids?
Thoughts? Should I consider buying my own printer? Yikes.
Heres the deal.
Are you setup for onsite printing? If not this is something you really need to do. To make money at these event's you really need to be able to deliver the goods on site so you can get the "Emotional" sales. If people have time to think rationally, less people buy.
I would ask for a Exclusivity agreement (meaning no competition for you there). I would also try to get it completely on spec, or with a percentage agreement so you don't have to pay them anything up front.
If you can sell and print onsite (really this is what you have to do to make money) you will need a simple setup.
4-10 sales stations. Computers where people can view the photos and place the orders (this is done through a web app that runs on your local network only).
1 workstation for the cashier who takes payment and sends the orders to the printer.
1 or 2 computers for printing, and however many printers you need to keep up (usually one or two will be able to handle it).
1 server to host all the pictures and the application that handles previewing and ordering all of the photos.
Being able to accept credit card payments will be important.
Offer a specific line of goods 5X7's 8X10's Magazine covers etc.
You will need, 1-2 shooters, or more, depending on number of fields you have going on. 1 shooter doing action for each field, 1 shooter doing team and individual portraits.
1-3 people working sales and printers (processing photos) depending on how busy you are possibly more.
Have lots of business cards and signs.
Have photos up online within 48 hours of close of event for future online sales. Make sure it's a hidden site and that you given them instructions on how to find it once it's up.
Otherwise you are looking at just shooting as much as you can, passing out as many cards as you can, and hoping people order online.
The company I shoot for occasionally follows the on-site setup I listed for you. They do fairly well as long as they are getting the photos and can usually turn a few thousand (thats slightly conservative) or more in sales a day at an event.
If you follow the shoot at the event, advertise, and hope to sell online after, you will make considerably less money.
These kinds of event's are all about on-site sales. You can try to do onsite sales, with mail delivery within a few weeks and you will sell better than relying on after the fact net sales, but not as good as onsite printing sales.
This was kinda a fast though answer as I'm paying attention to the speaker at this conference so I may have missed a few things. If you have any questions let me know. If you need help shooting the event or running it the first time I'm always available to travel and work event's too
The agreement would simply cover the services you are going to provide (on-site sales and printing, online ordering after the fact, no competition, pricing, profit sharing if applicable, etc).
www.zxstudios.com
http://creativedragonstudios.smugmug.com
Hehehe
Me too!!!!!
I also agree that on site sales is the way to make the big bucks. I freelance(d) for a company that does after the event web order only sales. They have done so for years, and to a specific community (5K,10K, triathlon, marathon racers) and I suspect it took years for them to get established with after event sales. These purchases are all spur of the moment. If you put the images on the web, and leave them there, that is often good enough for the buyers to just visit the images without purchasing. I KNOW this from experience!!!!
ann
My Galleries My Photography BLOG
Ramblings About Me
Blackberry blah....
My laptop alllll the way. I'm an IT pro though so I'm used to multi tasking.
www.zxstudios.com
http://creativedragonstudios.smugmug.com
With the method you are considering you will prolly have alot of prints that don't get sold, and your loosing out on the upsales with magazine covers.
I would do onsite printing and sales. I have seen how much more business it can generate. If you do two or three events, you could cover the cost of buying a full event setup. Plus you have to remember when you are shooting you are gonna be very very busy, this is the kinda job where multi tasking is bad. You need to focus on shooting while someone else is doing sales and showing photos.
Your way will most likely work (but not as high of profit), but I can also see parents asking why their isn't onsite printing and it turning them off.
www.zxstudios.com
http://creativedragonstudios.smugmug.com
My boys are soccer players in SoCal. When we go to tournaments, the set up for action shots is how you described. It is usually a 2 day tourny and the photogs take the pictures the 1st day, print all the 5x7 o/n and have them available in binders the 2nd day. The prices for 5x7s typically run 1-2 for $7 ea, up to 6 for $5 each and all pictures of an individual player for $35. It looks like they put every single frame they take in these binders - even those shots that "we" would not consider to be good (i.e., missing ball, no action, blurry, etc) and some parents buy them all
Can you really get 5x7s printed for $0.15? That'd be pretty good if you can. But add to your (start up) costs a 3 ring binder for each team and all the inserts to hold the prints (4 5x7 per insert, 2 per sheet back-to-back). You also need table(s) to hold the binders, an EZ-up, a banner (?) and people to man the shop on sales day.
Personally, I think it would be ambitious to be able to get shots of all the players at any given game, especially if it is only you shooting. The photogs at our games/tournaments are usually at any given game for less than 1/2 of the game (often only about 15 min). So even excluding bench sitters, if all the action while you're there is on one side of the field you won't get many shots of the players hanging at the other end. So you get what you can.
If you've got 40 teams to shoot that means 20 games in one day (working around when each team is playing). If you are the only one shooting, it'll make for a very long day.
So, my biggest piece of advice is don't plan on making every one happy. Also, FWIW, I have never been to a tournament that has on-site printing.
good luck and let us know how it turns out.
C.
***********************************
check out my (sports) pics: ColleenBonney.smugmug.com
*Thanks to Boolsacho for the avatar photo (from the dgrin portrait project)
As for the financial arrangement with the tournament organizer, I am certainly under the impression they want me to give them something. I was thinking of offering a percentage of sales in return for exclusivity and assistance in promotion (namely, providing the team managers' e-mails in advance of the tournament). But how much? I was thinking of offering 5% but accepting 10% if they counter. In the ballpark?
Do you have any thoughts of what sales I might expect? I realize so many variables make prediction tough (photo quality, participant affluency, etc, etc) but still, surely there's some way to make a rough guess.
Thanks.
In fact, one of the set ups I've seen with on site printing still uses contact sheets to order from.
HTH - my experience is this: I shot a tounament of really young teams - playing 3 v 3 so small fields, few players. Thus I was able to get lots of shots per kid. I put all photos onto smug organized by game etc. and sent links out. did this 2 years(and would again only cuz I really love the little kids). Sold less than $1K each time (way less the first time). However, by doing this tournament I have estalished a base of clients and lots of great word of mouth.
Good luck, and I would love to hear what you decide and how it goes.
ann
My Galleries My Photography BLOG
Ramblings About Me
Here is the thing with that. With the way you are planning on doing things your profit levels may not be that high. If you have competition for this and they are setup for on-site printing and they have done many of these they are gonna be offering the event organizers alot more money. Even if they are doing a percentage, 10% of $5,000.00 is $500.00, 10% of $1,000.00 is $100.00. If the event organizers look at this they are going to typically go with the more money. This is where knowing your competitors (the hardest part of this game) is so important. If you have a good relationship with the people in charge you should be able to find out this information on the down low (it's simply politics and I do it alot). Just getting started if and not looking to make a serious profit but more advertising from doing the event and being in front of people I can see this paying off, if you can get the contract. Please know I'm not trying to be a downer here just realistic (I have seen done both ways and I can tell you first hand that the smaller way will be alot of work for alot less payoff).
www.zxstudios.com
http://creativedragonstudios.smugmug.com
Gosh, seems to me you'd really have to make a LOT of sales to pay for the cost of having two or three folks there helping you, doing the printing and collecting the money, etc. Sounds like it would help to have a spouse or child helping, someone you basically didn't have to pay.
This seems like a rough way to make money!
Will
Having a spouse or kid along to work for free is always a great way to go. But when you think about it the labor costs work out to be a few hundred depending on how many people you have (an additional shooter is the biggest cost as the customer service people typically are gonna get between 8 an 10 an hour). When you figure sales in the thousands for most on-site printing event companies per event even if you end up with say $500.00 in labor, say $500 in media (ink and paper), and if you figure 10% at $5k to the event company your at $1500 in cost $5000 gross you end up with $3500.00 net (plus reprints from online sales prolly a few hundred later on) for 2 days work $3500.00 isn't bad even if you take out another 50% for the company to cover overhead you still put $1750.00 in your pocket for two days. Doesn't seem to rough to me.
www.zxstudios.com
http://creativedragonstudios.smugmug.com
As of now, I am planning on the overnight pre-print-all-photos and take my chances plan. I will take samples of larger sizes and novelties and take orders on those.
1. How many shots per player do think is optimal? I was thinking 3-5. [3-5 / player x 18 players / team x 75 teams = 4,050 - 6,750 pics]
2. 4x6 or 5x7? Assuming I pre-print them, which size would you do? Seems the larger size could be larger revenues (or will the price slow down the sales?).
3. Price suggestions?
4. How many photographers? Assume ~75 games the first day (assuming each team plays twice on day 1).
5. Any feel for how many pics I should hope to sell? I know this depends on a lot of variables here but surely somebody has some idea of how many pics you should hope to sell based on how many kids are there.
Thanks.
Here's what I've observed at the various tourny's my boys play at using that sales strategy:
- there is a (1"?) 3 ring binder w/ all the photos that has at least 20 pgs of 5x7 prints (4 per page). Some times this is per team and some times its per game (but I think in that case, they often only do one game per team).
- I've only ever seen 5x7's offered at these events. IMHO, the parents like the larger than 4x6 format.
- do graduated pricing. 1-2 pics more expensive than 3-5. Also, the two big action shooter groups I've seen typically give all pictures of an individual player for $35 (you don't want the extras and the parents feel like they're getting a deal and would likely buy that one extra to put them over the top to get all of them). Using that strategy, I've seen notebooks often completely picked over.
- I've never noticed that the photogs tried to get a certain # of shots per player. I think it would be ambitious to try to get every player. You also won't get every one on the team unless you are there for the whole game and the coach decides to sub in all bench players (which I think would be unlikely). It seems like the photogs I've watched just focus on the action and shoot off bursts to capture action at the ball. How long do you plan on having a photog at any given game? Our shooters are at a game for approx. 15 (maybe 20) min. Or, assuming the 50 min game schedule that seems to be typical for (at least our) tournaments, 1/2 a game would be reasonable. So that would be 2 games/hr/photog. How many games are being played at the same time?
HTH and good luck.
C.
***********************************
check out my (sports) pics: ColleenBonney.smugmug.com
*Thanks to Boolsacho for the avatar photo (from the dgrin portrait project)
As for the number of games at a time, I don't know yet. They're still taking entries I suppose.
Here's a nice trick I learned shooting my daughters' team. Shoot the warm ups! You can get right on the field next to the goal, each player will drive straight towards you and take a shot, the action is very predictable so it's easy to get each player one right after the other. Just crop in enough and no one will ever know it wasn't part of the actual game (and really who would care so long as it's a good shot). Some "real" action shots are also great of course but, with the warm up method, you get a lot of good shots quickly.
In fact, the first shot on my SM slideshow (bighotshot.smugmug.com) is a warm up shot and it's one of my all-time favorites.
If I were to purchase a printer, does anyone have any recommendations? After looking my printing expense, it's probably not far off from just buying my own printer.
I don't have enough computer equipment to show the pics digitally, but I could print contact sheets and show those. Anyone have experience with this?
The printer would have to be fast and hopefully easily run from my PC. Could any of the printers in Best Buy or other similar stores work? [Printing volume, I have no idea, but ~1000 kids at the tournament.]
Any suggestions?
UPDATE: A quick search of Best Buy online shows the Hewlett-Packard Photosmart Pro Network-Ready Photo Printer (Model: B9180) for $700. Think this would work? It says it can print 4x6's in "as little as" 10 seconds. Any better options?
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7893915&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat108200050018&id=1149205183583
Lots of them, but first we need to know a budget.
www.zxstudios.com
http://creativedragonstudios.smugmug.com
Considering my printing budget now is 32 cents per 5x7 and I expect to print somewhere between 3000-5000 pics, I'd say I could spend 1000-1500 but would like to spend less (of course). Got to have money for media.
The real rub is I should have been considering this 2 weeks ago; the tournament is this weekend so I'll have to have it overnighted, if possible.
The final straw: the cost of buying all the page protectors for the 5x7's is huge! I could avoid it with the contact sheets (or at least buy a whole lot few of the cheaper full page protectors).
I have not used these systems hands on. The system I have used hands on is way out of budget, but these have decent reviews FWIW, and are the type of printer usually used for onsite printing (dye Sub).
Also the ones I am listing will do as big as an 8X10, you can get ones that do only smaller sizes cheaper..
http://www.adorama.com/IKK1400DPP.html#ProductReviews
That's basically it in the price range for new dye-sub.
Ink jets can be used but I haven't done that hands on, and I have always been worried about the speed and time for ink to dry on these.
For that I would recommend either
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/460311-REG/Canon_9995A001_Pixma_Pro9000_Inkjet_Printer.html
or
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/367016-REG/Epson_C11C589011_Stylus_Photo_R1800_Inkjet.html
I have used this one on-site and liked it (its great for events), but not the price tag.
http://www.kgdigital.com/products/shinkoS1245.php
www.zxstudios.com
http://creativedragonstudios.smugmug.com
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7893915&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat108200050018&id=1149205183583
It says it can print 4x6's in "as little as" 10 seconds. Price tag ~$650.
Also, any guesstimates on media cost per print, say 5x7's.
Thanks.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8030631&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat108200050020&id=1157067258580
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8339531&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat108200050021&id=1175901727495
If you want to get it at best buy then it's prolly gonna be the canon.
With the canon I use canon photo paper pro and you can check the ink and paper prices on canon's website for what their msrp.
www.zxstudios.com
http://creativedragonstudios.smugmug.com
It says 30 seconds per 4x6 (in fastest mode). Will I want to print in the fastest mode or best mode?
But...
Can this really keep up? I have no earthly idea how many photos I will sell, but here's a scenario:
Let's say I sell 500 pics (realistic?). Even at 30 seconds a print, that's over 4 hours of printing time, assuming everything runs perfectly. I'm worried that bottle neck will create unacceptable wait times and potential customers will walk. I wonder if there's a faster printer that won't break the bank and, just as importantly, that I can get my hands on by this weekend.
Alternatively, what if I purchased 2 printers? Leave one in the box but have it at the ready in case demand warrants. Can 1 computer run 2 identical printers? Cut printing time in half?
First question answer, best mode.
and Yes a computer can run 2 identical printers to cut printing time down.
www.zxstudios.com
http://creativedragonstudios.smugmug.com
Maybe I'd need 3 printers. But at $500 a pop, I might lose my shirt. Unless I went for the cheaper printers, say the $150 range. They have fewer nozzles and colors but does that really make a difference?
Thoughts? Thanks. (If you can't tell, I'm getting nervous.)
If your close to michigan at all shoot me a PM or Email. I just might be able to make you an offer you couldn't refuse.
I think two printers would work out. I never make prints that small personally the smallest I have done is 8.5X11.
I can print out a borderless 8.5X11 on my printer in just a couple minutes. The longest part of the wait is the computer communicating with the printer. And the newer ones are faster. I think you should be able to do a 4X6 (and I still think you should consider going bigger) in a minute.
I would think two printers should be able to do fine to do this. Also remember the equipment is an investment that you can use time and time again. So although you may not make a huge profit this time or even take a small loss, you are better setup for next time.
www.zxstudios.com
http://creativedragonstudios.smugmug.com
It might be a good idea to find a 2nd PC and copy all images to it. It could run its own printer and should speed things up, particularly the pre-print PC work (looking for the image and sending it to the printer). Plus some redundancy is a good thing.
As for sizes, I originally was planning on pre-printing 5x7's. Now, of course, I'll bring an inventory of all sizes and let them choose. Any suggestions as to (a) how many total prints I should be prepared to sell [~1000 kids in attendance], and (b) a breakdown of the different sizes. I know it's a guess but yours would be better than mine.
Of course, I will put all images on my SM account and I'll have business cards available so if worst comes to worst, at least I can direct people there.
Thanks.
The second PC is a great idea. Redundancy is something I love. And let me talk to the wife, I'll explain it to her.
If there are ~1000 kids in attendance I would (when ever i do this I try to be conservative) guesstimate 500-600 prints depending on how things go (could be more could be less) all depending on pricing, quality of the shots, and how the economy is in the area. I like to hpe 50% of the people will order 1 item, typically more people will order items, and more will order multiple items. But as I have been discussing with Ann, I like to plan for medium to low numbers and pray for high ones. Paper packs you don't open can be returned, same with ink. Now although you are doing on-site (or close to) printing seeing as you won't have a big booth setup (I'm assuming) with viewing stations my numbers could be off. However if you do have a table or booth setup with someone doing sales and printing, and you are attracting attention to yourself your numbers should be good.
www.zxstudios.com
http://creativedragonstudios.smugmug.com