<<post suggestions for ways to improve the challenges here>>

digital faerie

ok, ok, let's try to avoid the crap-talking, mud-slinging, flaming, and anything else negative here.

I'd like to start a dialogue, one that's respectful and one that may actually help everyone here better the challenge process.

Issues have come up concerning the judging process. Good points have been made on all sides but we have failed to do one thing: figure out how to make it better.

So concerning the judging process, what about taking the past 5 challenge winners as judges (past 5 who can commit), to select the top 10.

Ginger made a good point on number of finalists. What if we had a number of finalists based on the total # of entries? Say, no less than 10 finalists, but if between go over 35 entries, bump it up to 15? I'd say more than 15 will just make it harder to vote.

What if we all voted on finalists? Charlie Brown had an interesting idea about everyone votes for 3 entries, and the top finalists are gleaned from that?

Come on everyone, I'm sure we can all be adults here and like I said earlier, there's always room for improvement.

Andy, you're doing a fine job and you couldn't pay me enough money to stand in the shoes you're in right now concerning all this.

Charlie Brown

again, i dont enter the challenges so im nt the best judge here, but if we all think things can be improved then we should do so.

why not let everyone vote for the finalists and then let us for durring the finals?

or leave the list of finalists up to all the mods, not just one, then let us vote for the finals?

or we all for finalists, and let the mods decide on the Finals but in an open forum where we can all have input?

there are so many ways to aleviate the perceived problems inherant in the system we have now without steppin on people toes and creating a more rounded process for judging.



cb

blackwaterstudio

I think for one just because someone has a opinion on a mod/admin etc they shouldn't banned as a member was, and thread's shouldn't be locked because a mod doesn't want to talk about it anymore.

Now having said that, I think everyone that enters the challenge should be voted on, then narrow it down to the top 3 from the votes, that gives the members the power to decide who gets the win or not. I think if one person or two makes the choice on who gets into the top 10 then it can be bad because they may not like your photo for some reason, whatever it be.

I have no problem with Andy, but I think it should be fair that if someone enters the challenge they should atleast be able to be voted on by other members. Heck I've entered 3 so far, only made it once to the top 10, its not like I"m gonna run out and blow something up because I didn't make it to the top 10, but I think for it to be fair you should have all entry's voted on and then pick from the top 3.

digital faerie

hey Andy

jdsphotography wrote:

I think for one just because someone has a opinion on a mod/admin etc they shouldn't banned as a member was, and thread's shouldn't be locked because a mod doesn't want to talk about it anymore.

Now having said that, I think everyone that enters the challenge should be voted on, then narrow it down to the top 3 from the votes, that gives the members the power to decide who gets the win or not. I think if one person or two makes the choice on who gets into the top 10 then it can be bad because they may not like your photo for some reason, whatever it be.

I have no problem with Andy, but I think it should be fair that if someone enters the challenge they should atleast be able to be voted on by other members. Heck I've entered 3 so far, only made it once to the top 10, its not like I"m gonna run out and blow something up because I didn't make it to the top 10, but I think for it to be fair you should have all entry's voted on and then pick from the top 3.

has this been tried before?

Andy

comment

it's hard enough to get just one co-judge to do his/her thing ontime, getting five, well you stand a better chance at creating world peace than that happening

re: the numbers... 10/50 (the number of entries last challenge) is 20%, that's a lot. and, you have to consider the voting - getting a statistical sample that's meaningful is very hard when you have many many choices. think about that, too...

fwiw.

Charlie Brown

like ive stated before, i dont know anything about the challenges or the judging process, but from an outsiders view the more people involved the less room there is for somoene favoiring one style over another, whether it happens or not doesnt really matter. people are always going to think that there are favourites, thats just the way things work in the real world. so the more people that are able to have an imput into the culling process the better, not just because it become a more unified process, but also because any alleged slights or favoured style will have to be agreed upon by everyone making it much more difficult for it to be possible. that way there is no room for complaint, at all.


cb

digital faerie

Charlie Brown wrote:

like ive stated before, i dont know anything about the challenges or the judging process, but from an outsiders view the more people involved the less room there is for somoene favoiring one style over another, whether it happens or not doesnt really matter. people are always going to think that there are favourites, thats just the way things work in the real world. so the more people that are able to have an imput into the culling process the better, not just because it become a more unified process, but also because any alleged slights or favoured style will have to be agreed upon by everyone making it much more difficult for it to be possible. that way there is no room for complaint, at all.


cb

unfortunately, someone will probably always complain but I'm going to have to strongly agree with you on this point of bringing more opinions into the culling process.

Charlie Brown

digital faerie wrote:

unfortunately, someone will probably always complain but I'm going to have to strongly agree with you on this point of bringing more opinions into the culling process.

there will always be comlaints, but there wont be any room for personal attacks or personal preferences. thats the beauty behind having more than one judge, even if it takes a few days longer to decide and announce who the winner is. it sthe people that make the site so great, not just me or you or fish or andy or damon its all of collectively that make dgrin, so why not collectively vote on the challenges.



cb

jwear

????
HAVE YOU EVER TRIED TO GET 3 PEOPLE TO AGREE ON WHERE TO GO TO DINNER ? just take pics JEFF

Charlie Brown

jwear wrote:

HAVE YOU EVER TRIED TO GET 3 PEOPLE TO AGREE ON WHERE TO GO TO DINNER ? just take pics JEFF

yes, i have. ok so why dont we let the current president choose the next one? if you cant see any room for improvement, i cant help you. i dont care who wins or looses, who cheats or chooses, i dont enter the challenges, but i can see room for improvement. its nothing agains andy, or damon, or anyone else for that matter.

Angelo

I have stayed out of this fray and am SOOOOO not gonna "get into it" but I will share just one thought that has occured to me in the short time I've been a member.

Since this is, for the most part, a learning site, I would love to hear a bit from the moderator(s) about their choices of finalists.

Please don't misconstrue this to mean I want the moderator to "answer" for their decisions. Knowing a little (just a little) about why certain photos were selected might help us hone our skills at critiquing or seeing that extra little something that might otherwise have gone unnoticed.

Yes Andy, I realize this would translate to yet MORE work, but if you can't take the heat, stay out... oops; Sorry! :heh

Charlie Brown

Angelo wrote:

I have stayed out of this fray and am SOOOOO not gonna "get into it" but I will share just one thought that has occured to me in the short time I've been a member.

Since this is, for the most part, a learning site, I would love to hear a bit from the moderator(s) about their choices of finalists.

Please don't misconstrue this to mean I want the moderator to "answer" for their decisions. Knowing a little (just a little) about why certain photos were selected might help us hone our skills at critiquing or seeing that extra little something that might otherwise have gone unnoticed.

Yes Andy, I realize this would translate to yet MORE work, but if you can't take the heat, stay out... oops; Sorry! :heh

very good point.


cb

Shay Stephens

The only thing this accomplishes is anonomizing who it is that is saying no. The end result is still the same (i.e. photos not being picked) but at least then you can't pin a name on who the jerk was that said no to your photo

One person picking the top ten results in the same outcome if a million people do it.

digital faerie wrote:

unfortunately, someone will probably always complain but I'm going to have to strongly agree with you on this point of bringing more opinions into the culling process.

Shakey

Other sites have other ways of judging. I would encourage everyone to participate in these challenge site's.

You will find that no Judging process is perfect.

For example; DPChallenge an excellent site with a large membership open and private which photos are posted anonomously. And voted by anyone who signs up.
Issues: Often voting is skewed by a myopic look at challenge parameters to many people only wish to see inside the box.
Rants a plenty about scores recieved.

Another method I was involved in was the winner of the contest was the full administrator of the next contest.
Photos were posted anon and then anyone voted on favorite 5.

Issues: If the winner is not passionate about being an administrator his /her lack of enthusiasm can often sink the challenges and malaise and apathy set in for future challenges.

Fred Miranda. Large professional site,Lots of knowledge lots of rules.
Issues: I usuallly get my As.. er butt kicked quite regularly by some fine Photographers that I compete against.

As for here... I trust Andy's impartiality implicitly.By his posts, his helpfulness and professional polite demeanor I have gained immeasurable trust in his "eye" and decision making.
He has a intangeable...Passion

Leaving my plate of ribs beside him unguarded however is another matter.


Try the grass elsewhere, and you will find Andy keeps a trim vibrant and growing lawn .

As for Fish locking the thread ... He did so 100% correctly IMO emotions were to hot. And when sand gets thrown in each others eyes it's time to close the sandbox take the toys home and comeback another day .:D


YMMV
Take care all
Tim

Andy

Angelo wrote:

I have stayed out of this fray and am SOOOOO not gonna "get into it" but I will share just one thought that has occured to me in the short time I've been a member.

Since this is, for the most part, a learning site, I would love to hear a bit from the moderator(s) about their choices of finalists.

Please don't misconstrue this to mean I want the moderator to "answer" for their decisions. Knowing a little (just a little) about why certain photos were selected might help us hone our skills at critiquing or seeing that extra little something that might otherwise have gone unnoticed.

Yes Andy, I realize this would translate to yet MORE work, but if you can't take the heat, stay out... oops; Sorry! :heh

angelo,

for a long time, i (and a guest judge/pro) made comments on each and every image - all entries, finalists, and winner. now that was when we had about 20-22 entries per challenge. that took a long long time for me each challenge! finally, i had to give that up - and you know what happened? we moved to individual threads for each entrant - and loads of comments/critiques and learning started happening!

now, i try to step in to the comments threads and give what i can.

Shay Stephens

I have helped choose the top ten a few times now. And this is how I do it.

I make an initial look through to see what the general feel is and how the group is interpreting the theme. This allows me to quickly decide if I am dealing with high quality entries or so-so entries.

If I am dealing with so so entries, I relax my decision making process. If there are high quality entries, I get much harder on them. When I am done with the first pass I may or may not have a list of ten entries.

If the list of first round picks is over ten, I make my criteria harder. For example, the composition, the lighting, the technical merits. If two image have the same artistic feel to me, then I get picky about the finer points. How well does the subject or theme stand out. Who did a better job of telling the story. Which photo is just plain more compelling if all else is equal.

If the list is less than ten, I then relax my criteria, allowing for poorer compositions, less desirable white balance, etc until I have a list of at least ten images that I feel are the best the group has to offer.

Sometimes this process goes by quickly because the pool of photos is just plain not that great. But sometimes it takes a while because the photos are great, and it is painful to have to choose one over the other. But chose one must, for the show must go on

Angelo wrote:

Since this is, for the most part, a learning site, I would love to hear a bit from the moderator(s) about their choices of finalists.

Angelo

andy wrote:

angelo,

for a long time, i (and a guest judge/pro) made comments on each and every image - all entries, finalists, and winner. now that was when we had about 20-22 entries per challenge. that took a long long time for me each challenge! finally, i had to give that up - and you know what happened? we moved to individual threads for each entrant - and loads of comments/critiques and learning started happening!

now, i try to step in to the comments threads and give what i can.

well true, I can see that.

What is it they say about those ignorant of history? they're destined to repeat it!? Thanks for responding.

digital faerie

Shay Stephens wrote:

I have helped choose the top ten a few times now. And this is how I do it.

I make an initial look through to see what the general feel is and how the group is interpreting the theme. This allows me to quickly decide if I am dealing with high quality entries or so-so entries.

If I am dealing with so so entries, I relax my decision making process. If there are high quality entries, I get much harder on them. When I am done with the first pass I may or may not have a list of ten entries.

If the list of first round picks is over ten, I make my criteria harder. For example, the composition, the lighting, the technical merits. If two image have the same artistic feel to me, then I get picky about the finer points. How well does the subject or theme stand out. Who did a better job of telling the story. Which photo is just plain more compelling if all else is equal.

If the list is less than ten, I then relax my criteria, allowing for poorer compositions, less desirable white balance, etc until I have a list of at least ten images that I feel are the best the group has to offer.

Sometimes this process goes by quickly because the pool of photos is just plain not that great. But sometimes it takes a while because the photos are great, and it is painful to have to choose one over the other. But chose one must, for the show must go on

I think that's nice actually. Please, no one take this the wrong way, but perhaps it would be nicer if there were 3 or 4 people to carry out this process? I know, I know...."in a perfect world"

but really, that's a very good approach, actually maybe it's really the only approach?

Michael Allen

My .02, The only way I could see improving on the current set up is open voting on every photo that meets the challenge rules. As long as there is a limit on vote entries, that isn't possible. Till then keep up the good work Andy and Co-judge. Appreciate the time and effort you put in.

DoctorIt

Michael Allen wrote:

My .02, The only way I could see improving on the current set up is open voting on every photo that meets the challenge rules. As long as there is a limit on vote entries, that isn't possible. Till then keep up the good work Andy and Co-judge. Appreciate the time and effort you put in.

There's about 50 entries, and about 50 people usually voting (or at least no more than 100)? How on earth is that going to work? Just from a basic math point of view.

Perfect schmerfect. For those of you who haven't been here from the beginning, I can see your frustrations, but this is a growing forum, I think all of this has been said before. Until it gets bigger, I have a hard time seeing how we can immediately "improve".

4labs

Will anyone accept bribes to vote for my photos ? Maybe dinner next time you are in NYC or a Broadway show?For you single guys you can borrow one of my pups, they are great babe magnets..I think it is way more important to get feedback whether postive or negative than to care about how the challenges are judged..I would much rather have someone tell me my photos suck and this is how you can improve it than to have my picture win a contest and not know what is so good about it..What can I say I am needy..:crazy

spockling

News Flash Folks!!! Andy's not Perfect. Sorry Andy

Look, for 99.9% of us here, this is a HOBBY!. ReLAX!!!

Now go take some pics for us to gawk at:D

digital faerie

4labs wrote:

Will anyone accept bribes to vote for my photos ? Maybe dinner next time you are in NYC or a Broadway show?For you single guys you can borrow one of my pups, they are great babe magnets..I think it is way more important to get feedback whether postive or negative than to care about how the challenges are judged..I would much rather have someone tell me my photos suck and this is how you can improve it than to have my picture win a contest and not know what is so good about it..What can I say I am needy..:crazy

all forms of credit card are accepted and if you gimme your e-mail, I'll send you my paypal account info and we'll set something up.

digital faerie

spockling wrote:

News Flash Folks!!! Andy's not Perfect. Sorry Andy

Look, for 99.9% of us here, this is a HOBBY!. ReLAX!!!

Now go take some pics for us to gawk at:D

look, no one's saying andy's perfect or imperfect.....this is just an outlet to toss around ideas and maybe even reach an epiphany. oh well....

Jenny

4labs wrote:

....I think it is way more important to get feedback whether postive or negative than to care about how the challenges are judged..I would much rather have someone tell me my photos suck and this is how you can improve it than to have my picture win a contest and not know what is so good about it....

I completely agree!

Michael Allen

I'm not complaining about what we have, I was saying that's the only way I could see it any better. Not everyone is going to be happy no matter what is done. If anything.

fish

andy wrote:

blah blah blah deleted

Sit down, shut up, and listen, Andrew.

Try not to get too defensive...this is a constructive thread and there are some good ideas coming out. Please consider it brainstorming...not blamestorming. Okay? Fine. I can't find yer damn cell#, so pm it to me, will ya?

Seamus

Shay Stephens wrote:

For example, the composition, the lighting, the technical merits.

I knew I was doing something wrong:D


(the other) Shay.

Andy

fish wrote:

blah blah blah

blah blah blah blah

fixed.

hey i love this thread, are you kidding? the more ideas the better. btw everyone - just remember the physical and practical limitations as you come up with your ideas

digital faerie

andy wrote:

fixed.

hey i love this thread, are you kidding? the more ideas the better. btw everyone - just remember the physical and practical limitations as you come up with your ideas

that's a very strong point Andy.....so what is it you as a judge find difficult in this process? besides of course, choosing from such wonderful photographs all the time, hehe. what are some things you don't like perhaps?

other co-judges, thoughts?

Andy

digital faerie wrote:

that's a very strong point Andy.....so what is it you as a judge find difficult in this process? besides of course, choosing from such wonderful photographs all the time, hehe. what are some things you don't like perhaps?

other co-judges, thoughts?

i need permission from :fish before i can answer