that's a very strong point Andy.....so what is it you as a judge find difficult in this process?
Time.
As Andy's noted, just getting a single person to help judge the photos has been difficult. Getting a panel to show-up and do the work is not likely to happen.
Why? Time. Only Andy's been willing to spend the time, on a regular basis, to do it. He's had to scramble many times in the past to find a co-judge.
He speaks from experience when he says that any suggestions have to pass the common sense/practicality test. And it's a stern test.
I'm waiting to hear a good idea that will work. I'd be all for it, but I haven't heard one yet. And I don't have any suggestions either!
I think given the 10 item limit on polls, which is a limitation of the software used not the stipulation of the judges, that the system we have now is above average.
There's another board I frequent that has a photoshop challenge. Sometimes it is a weekly thing, other times they extend it to 2 weeks because the owners/mods are too busy to set up the poll. This last contest is starting on its' 3rd week, I believe.
And to make matters worse, thier software of choice allows unlimited items to be voted on, so everyone's images are voted on by everyone. The workload is much less than what Andy has signed up to, and they still can't keep a schedule.
Now, did "everyone votes on all the images" solve the "bias" question. No! They recently changed to a policy of posting the images in the voting thread without names attached. It was perceived by some that folks were voting for their friends only, or something like that. The gist is that people complained that it was unfair in some way.
So you see, I think we have it pretty good here. Many thanks to Andy and all the other past judges for their hard work. And let us not forget Baldy, who hosts this site for free.
So you see, I think we have it pretty good here. Many thanks to Andy and all the other past judges for their hard work. And let us not forget Baldy, who hosts this site for free.
I'm new here, but I have been perusing past challenges and reading lots of posts. This is really a great forum and I am thoroughly enjoying the atmosphere. Everyone (so far as I see) acts respectful, lots of great constructive criticism and compliments.
Anyhoo! I'm not sure what the programming behind this monster allows, but what if only those who initially the entered the contest can vote on their "top 3", then the "10 finalists" are chosen from those rankings? Then everyone on dgrin can vote for the winner of the challenge?
as far as the expertise Andy has in critiquing photos, that of course doesn't fit into the above model - which is a bit sad since I think it's great to have someone with experience review and pick the photos (that isn't to say of course, that there aren't talented experienced photographers of equal or better calibur on here *smile*)
But, like I said, not sure if the scripting can make polls "private by user" so that only users who posted can vote. That would be a quick few minutes on an admin's part (or whoever volunteers) to go through the challenge thread and copy user names into a text file, which would be the list for those who can vote in the private poll. I'm work in database-driven website design/programming and can conceptually map out the process, anyone got the programming skills?
ok, ok, let's try to avoid the crap-talking, mud-slinging, flaming, and anything else negative here.
I'd like to start a dialogue, one that's respectful and one that may actually help everyone here better the challenge process.
Issues have come up concerning the judging process. Good points have been made on all sides but we have failed to do one thing: figure out how to make it better.
So concerning the judging process, what about taking the past 5 challenge winners as judges (past 5 who can commit), to select the top 10.
Ginger made a good point on number of finalists. What if we had a number of finalists based on the total # of entries? Say, no less than 10 finalists, but if between go over 35 entries, bump it up to 15? I'd say more than 15 will just make it harder to vote.
What if we all voted on finalists? Charlie Brown had an interesting idea about everyone votes for 3 entries, and the top finalists are gleaned from that?
Come on everyone, I'm sure we can all be adults here and like I said earlier, there's always room for improvement.
Andy, you're doing a fine job and you couldn't pay me enough money to stand in the shoes you're in right now concerning all this.
perhaps the "problem" is stemming from the fact that many different styles can be associated with any particular challenge. Ch. 32 - predominant color- was approached in many different ways. A challenge on abstracts would probably narrow down styles.
*sigh* I realize time is an issue. I'm still racking my brain trying to find a possible solution but it's hard....I've never been in Andy's shoes and if he says that he spends just as much time looking at the last submission for a challenge as he does the first then I certainly believe him. I can only imagine.
Maybe we can try having all dgrinners (not just submitters) vote on the top 3 for the finalists one day and see how it goes. I realize this didn't work out on another forum, but from what I've seen on this board, it just might work here. Heck, we could even do a test run.....judge the challenges like we have been (andy and co-judge) and also have a simultaneous vote by the general dgrin population and see how the two "top ten's" compare?
I realize the polling program is limited so we can either modify it, or we can vote by pm's?
Personally, I don't understand the griping about the challenge selections. If you don't like the way it is done, don't enter the challenges. Several people here making comments and suggestions have been around for only one or two challenges! Try not to make sweeping judgements about things needing to be changed if you don't have the historical perspective.
I commend Andy for his time and efforts on this board. When it comes to judging your art, you just have to accept that we all like different things. The software only allows a selection of 10 pics. Let Andy and the previous winner pick them.
perhaps the "problem" is stemming from the fact that many different styles can be associated with any particular challenge. Ch. 32 - predominant color- was approached in many different ways. A challenge on abstracts would probably narrow down styles.
*sigh* I realize time is an issue. I'm still racking my brain trying to find a possible solution but it's hard....I've never been in Andy's shoes and if he says that he spends just as much time looking at the last submission for a challenge as he does the first then I certainly believe him. I can only imagine.
Maybe we can try having all dgrinners (not just submitters) vote on the top 3 for the finalists one day and see how it goes. I realize this didn't work out on another forum, but from what I've seen on this board, it just might work here. Heck, we could even do a test run.....judge the challenges like we have been (andy and co-judge) and also have a simultaneous vote by the general dgrin population and see how the two "top ten's" compare?
I realize the polling program is limited so we can either modify it, or we can vote by pm's?
food for thought?
d.f. i can see your wheels turning, and that's cool. but again, i really have to point you back to what's practical and possible. voting by pm means that pms have to be opened, read, tallied, managed, and otherwise dealt with. so take the previous challenge - we had 100+ voters. that's an additional hour or more in just dealing with pm vote tallying.
d.f. i can see your wheels turning, and that's cool. but again, i really have to point you back to what's practical and possible. voting by pm means that pms have to be opened, read, tallied, managed, and otherwise dealt with. so take the previous challenge - we had 100+ voters. that's an additional hour or more in just dealing with pm vote tallying.
so I take it there's no modifying the poll either for my other point.
*sigh*
and Mitchell, I think I've made myself quite clear on how I feel about the challenges. thanks, though.
"Consulting the rules of composition before taking a photograph, is like consulting the laws of gravity before going for a walk." - Edward Weston "The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."-Hunter S.Thompson
I've had the pleasure of judging a couple of times, and I have to say its tough, & time consuming but educational.
I guess it took me around 3 hours each time but we were doing comments for each shot then. I took a slightly different approach to Shay in that I had catagories, ie compostion/technical/original/how much do I actually like it. Then award points for each catagory for each image. I generally found that I'd have 2-3 clear leaders and a lot of ties for the last 3-4 places. For these tied shots I'd go back again and award half/qtr points until I ended up with 10.
Its a really good exercise to do even if your not judging, try it & you'll see what I mean. It'll also give you an idea of what's involved.
I enter the challenges because I love taking pictures and want to improve.
If I happen to get picked that's fantastic, if I don't, then I'm dissapointed for 15 mins and then get on with the next one.
I'm up for changes that make life easier but at the end of the day it really doesn't matter about the selection process, I just want to take photographs, learn a bit and meet a few friends on the way!
I enter the challenges because I love taking pictures and want to improve.
If I happen to get picked that's fantastic, if I don't, then I'm dissapointed for 15 mins and then get on with the next one.
I'm up for changes that make life easier but at the end of the day it really doesn't matter about the selection process, I just want to take photographs, learn a bit and meet a few friends on the way!
Gubbs has hit the nail on the head, for me anyways. Thanks Gubbs.
Eric
"My dad taught me everything I know, unfortunately he didn't teach me everything he knows" Dale Earnhardt Jr
It's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not.
Personally, I don't understand the griping about the challenge selections. If you don't like the way it is done, don't enter the challenges. Several people here making comments and suggestions have been around for only one or two challenges! Try not to make sweeping judgements about things needing to be changed if you don't have the historical perspective.
I commend Andy for his time and efforts on this board. When it comes to judging your art, you just have to accept that we all like different things. The software only allows a selection of 10 pics. Let Andy and the previous winner pick them.
mitch
I agree. There does seem to be a lot of newbies that haven't entered or only entered a time or two complaining here. I didn't get picked my first try either. Why? I dunno. Did I cry about it? :cry No. Those who have been here a while and complain about never getting picked for the top ten would stop once one of their entries did get selected...I've seen it happen! It's all a matter of prospective. Yes there is some bias to all judging...no matter what it is. I feel that Andy does a great job in trying to remain as unbiased as possible.
The limitations of the software prohibit the possibility of everyone voting for all entries. (we have been told that many times) I am a member on an art site that has a rating system and has periodic contests. The rating system for all posted work was shut off for a long time because people complained that they weren't getting the ratings that they "should". The ratings weren't issued by one person, or a panel of judges...they were voted on by EVERYONE that went to the site and saw their work. The contests that they run are kept anonymous until the voting is over. People still complain that the system isn't fair. Again, EVERYONE gets to vote on EVERY entry, and people don't like it!
My point is that nothing will satisfy everyone, and there are just some people that are happier when they are unhappy. Those, unfortunately, are the ones that make the most noise and cause the most headaches...and are the reason that we are all debating this topic. I don't mind hearing new ideas, but it seems like these are just the same old ideas all over again. :deadhorse (this is the FUNNIEST smilie, btw!)
So, what are MY suggestions, you ask? I dont' have any because I am not unhappy with our current system. If things do change, I'm sure I'll be fine with that too.
d.f. i can see your wheels turning, and that's cool. but again, i really have to point you back to what's practical and possible. voting by pm means that pms have to be opened, read, tallied, managed, and otherwise dealt with. so take the previous challenge - we had 100+ voters. that's an additional hour or more in just dealing with pm vote tallying.
I kind of like the way the challenge is run as it is, but I'll throw in my 2 cents.
If the software can only handle 10 pics, could multiple voting threads be put
up, whereas say 40 pics were entered, set up 4 voting polls, people could
vote once in each poll for a day, then the top few could go into a finale
vote. This could be tricky because of ties, but I'm sure something could be
worked out.
Just a point because I'm newer to the challenges here. I have been entering
the challenges at Dpreview for about a year and a half. I have never won,
and I have never thought that I have been cheated. In the few challenges
that I have been in here, most of the comments after are something like
"I knew that was the winner the 1st time I saw it." I believe that this
is normaly the case. One pic will just stand above the rest.
Anyhow, I would think this may save Andy some time, and every picture
gets the chance to be voted on.
Anyhow, I would think this may save Andy some time, and every picture
gets the chance to be voted on.
dave.
actually, setting up voting for 40 or 50 or i hope 100! entries takes a lot of time, dave. it's not as easy as it sounds. for example, for each entry that's "attached" instead of hotlinked, i have to upload that to a smugmug gallery, and grab the link, and embed it myself into the voting threads. as it is, it takes a while to get it right in the current system ...
"...you can't please all of the people all of the time!"
we're now 50 posts into this thread and the consistent message is that someone will always find fault with whatever method is employed to determine winners.
in my experience I have found that in situations like this people who tend to gripe have issues that have more to do with control than with winning.
for my money this site is just fine the way it is. if my photos don't get picked for the top 10 and don't win then I'd better get my a** in gear and work harder, or stop entering. simple really!
can we move on? we should be expending all of this energy on our art not our egos.
actually, setting up voting for 40 or 50 or i hope 100! entries takes a lot of time, dave. it's not as easy as it sounds. for example, for each entry that's "attached" instead of hotlinked, i have to upload that to a smugmug gallery, and grab the link, and embed it myself into the voting threads. as it is, it takes a while to get it right in the current system ...
thanks for the suggestion though!
Here's a can of worms. Is there a way that we could upload our pics to a
smugmug gallery? You know where I'm going with this, it would be more like
the Dpreview challenge, and it would be easier for you to link the photos
to the polling thread. I know those challenges have been hijacked by some
doorknobs and added measures had to be taken. But maybe this would
be a way to vote for every pic, and help you out.
"...you can't please all of the people all of the time!"
we're now 50 posts into this thread and the consistent message is that someone will always find fault with whatever method is employed to determine winners.
in my experience I have found that in situations like this people who tend to gripe have issues that have more to do with control than with winning.
for my money this site is just fine the way it is. if my photos don't get picked for the top 10 and don't win then I'd better get my a** in gear and work harder, or stop entering. simple really!
can we move on? we should be expending all of this energy on our art not our egos.
I completely agree with Angelo on this!
I think the challenge is not really about winning but about going through the process of creating and improving, while being possible to have a perception of how others personally view and interpret our work.
Thus, as with any art form, the feeling of a certain majority of people is not always coincident with our own/other people than that feelings about it, and that does not make it less valuable.
So, what are MY suggestions, you ask? I dont' have any because I am not unhappy with our current system. If things do change, I'm sure I'll be fine with that too.
Will you please stop being so reasonable and get with the program?
I agree. There does seem to be a lot of newbies that haven't entered or only entered a time or two complaining here. I didn't get picked my first try either. Why? I dunno. Did I cry about it? :cry No. Those who have been here a while and complain about never getting picked for the top ten would stop once one of their entries did get selected...I've seen it happen!
So, what are MY suggestions, you ask? I dont' have any because I am not unhappy with our current system. If things do change, I'm sure I'll be fine with that too.
I'm just going to get all of this out of the way as a "newbie" and clarify again how I personally feel about the challenges:
I really don't want to give up on the challenges because for me, it's not about winning or making it to the finals it's about pushing my own envelope and giving me a focus, so to speak, when I go out at 5 am and I'm searching for that perfect place and perfect light. The last 2 weeks of the previous challenge was very satisfying to me, I felt like I was getting something done, even if I only ended up with one shot that I felt was semi-worthy of being submitted into the challenge. I still learned something about myself and my camera and that is priceless. But there's something to be said when comments are made about "abstracts have never done well" or "dogs never win" etc. I haven't been here long enough to know for sure, but it makes me wonder.
now, having gotten that out of the way, this thread was an attempt to start an outlet to toss around ideas in the hopes of coming up with a solution. After reading the last few posts I feel like I have to defend myself as a "newbie" for having an opinion that things can always improve at any point in time. I'm idealistic like that. I was taking the constructive criticism that was trying to emerge from the "support" thread from the keyboards of other people -- newbies and old-schoolers alike -- and place it in a thread that didn't involve any poo-flinging.
point being, there were more than newbies that saw a chance to improve but I guess that's what this thread has come to. Fish put it best when he said this thread should be about "brainstorming not blamestorming."
I did learn a lot from this thread thanks to some comments from andy and others who have judged previously, I think that shed some light that not all people were aware of regarding the judging process.
Bottomline this has nothing to do with my submission to the last challenge, so what? I don't do this to win. I think I've made that pretty clear before and hopefully have done so here again.
After reading the last few posts I feel like I have to defend myself as a "newbie" for having an opinion that things can always improve at any point in time.
DF: I'm as new as you and I like that you started this thread to illicit civil discourse on the matter. It beats the heck out of its predecessor.
My last comment (#49) was simply an attempt to finally wrap this up because I was reading much the same in all of the posts.
i dont think any of us "newbies" are complaining, were here to learn and to share. there were several other threads that had the same point, but the theme and tome of DFs thread is much better. i think all that is going on in this on in particular is to find out where we al think the judgring process is and if/how it can be imroved upon. no one here is complaining, fish banned that dude.
cb
I can only hope to progress to the point of one day being a second rate photographer, wish me luck.
Will you please stop being so reasonable and get with the program?
Sorry... Okay, I would like Andy to shoot all the photos for my entries! Then if they don't make it in I'm going to REALLY have a fit because of the biased nature of this whole system!! It's a conspiracy, I tell you!! I bet Ward Churchill is behind it! ...or maybe the Nazis... Hmm, who else can I blame?
DF: I'm as new as you and I like that you started this thread to illicit civil discourse on the matter. It beats the heck out of its predecessor.
My last comment (#49) was simply an attempt to finally wrap this up because I was reading much the same in all of the posts.
Angelo, I try not to be the grammar police, but using illicit when you meant elicit made me laugh.
il·lic·it ** *
Not sanctioned by custom or law; unlawful.
e·lic·it **
To bring or draw out (something latent); educe.
To arrive at (a truth, for example) by logic.
To call forth, draw out, or provoke (a reaction, for example).
Angelo, I try not to be the grammar police, but using illicit when you meant elicit made me laugh.
il·lic·it ** *
Not sanctioned by custom or law; unlawful.
e·lic·it **
To bring or draw out (something latent); educe.
To arrive at (a truth, for example) by logic.
To call forth, draw out, or provoke (a reaction, for example).
You are correct and I chalk up the error chiefly to absent-minded speed typing, however I'm humbled by the correction. I am glad I could provide you with some humor.
What is particularly funny about your posting is I found myself starting a pedantic thread of my own, since abandoned, with details about the proper use of the adjective "too" vs the preposition "to" as well as the proper use of contractions; ie. "you're" for "you are" vs "your". Have you tallied the number of errors of this type? That no doubt would bring about side-splitting laughter.
According to the NY Times style guide, this one is technically correct. Mostly because of appearance I think - it looks odd to have a letter beside a number all on its lonesome.
Comments
Cincinnati Smug Leader
cb
Time.
As Andy's noted, just getting a single person to help judge the photos has been difficult. Getting a panel to show-up and do the work is not likely to happen.
Why? Time. Only Andy's been willing to spend the time, on a regular basis, to do it. He's had to scramble many times in the past to find a co-judge.
He speaks from experience when he says that any suggestions have to pass the common sense/practicality test. And it's a stern test.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
I think given the 10 item limit on polls, which is a limitation of the software used not the stipulation of the judges, that the system we have now is above average.
There's another board I frequent that has a photoshop challenge. Sometimes it is a weekly thing, other times they extend it to 2 weeks because the owners/mods are too busy to set up the poll. This last contest is starting on its' 3rd week, I believe.
And to make matters worse, thier software of choice allows unlimited items to be voted on, so everyone's images are voted on by everyone. The workload is much less than what Andy has signed up to, and they still can't keep a schedule.
Now, did "everyone votes on all the images" solve the "bias" question. No! They recently changed to a policy of posting the images in the voting thread without names attached. It was perceived by some that folks were voting for their friends only, or something like that. The gist is that people complained that it was unfair in some way.
So you see, I think we have it pretty good here. Many thanks to Andy and all the other past judges for their hard work.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
Anyhoo! I'm not sure what the programming behind this monster allows, but what if only those who initially the entered the contest can vote on their "top 3", then the "10 finalists" are chosen from those rankings? Then everyone on dgrin can vote for the winner of the challenge?
as far as the expertise Andy has in critiquing photos, that of course doesn't fit into the above model - which is a bit sad since I think it's great to have someone with experience review and pick the photos (that isn't to say of course, that there aren't talented experienced photographers of equal or better calibur on here *smile*)
But, like I said, not sure if the scripting can make polls "private by user" so that only users who posted can vote. That would be a quick few minutes on an admin's part (or whoever volunteers) to go through the challenge thread and copy user names into a text file, which would be the list for those who can vote in the private poll. I'm work in database-driven website design/programming and can conceptually map out the process, anyone got the programming skills?
just an idea :-)
AJ
*sigh* I realize time is an issue. I'm still racking my brain trying to find a possible solution but it's hard....I've never been in Andy's shoes and if he says that he spends just as much time looking at the last submission for a challenge as he does the first then I certainly believe him. I can only imagine.
Maybe we can try having all dgrinners (not just submitters) vote on the top 3 for the finalists one day and see how it goes. I realize this didn't work out on another forum, but from what I've seen on this board, it just might work here. Heck, we could even do a test run.....judge the challenges like we have been (andy and co-judge) and also have a simultaneous vote by the general dgrin population and see how the two "top ten's" compare?
I realize the polling program is limited so we can either modify it, or we can vote by pm's?
food for thought?
I commend Andy for his time and efforts on this board. When it comes to judging your art, you just have to accept that we all like different things. The software only allows a selection of 10 pics. Let Andy and the previous winner pick them.
mitch
http://clearwaterphotography.smugmug.com/
d.f. i can see your wheels turning, and that's cool. but again, i really have to point you back to what's practical and possible. voting by pm means that pms have to be opened, read, tallied, managed, and otherwise dealt with. so take the previous challenge - we had 100+ voters. that's an additional hour or more in just dealing with pm vote tallying.
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
*sigh*
and Mitchell, I think I've made myself quite clear on how I feel about the challenges. thanks, though.
:fu
"The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."-Hunter S.Thompson
I guess it took me around 3 hours each time but we were doing comments for each shot then. I took a slightly different approach to Shay in that I had catagories, ie compostion/technical/original/how much do I actually like it. Then award points for each catagory for each image. I generally found that I'd have 2-3 clear leaders and a lot of ties for the last 3-4 places. For these tied shots I'd go back again and award half/qtr points until I ended up with 10.
Its a really good exercise to do even if your not judging, try it & you'll see what I mean. It'll also give you an idea of what's involved.
I enter the challenges because I love taking pictures and want to improve.
If I happen to get picked that's fantastic, if I don't, then I'm dissapointed for 15 mins and then get on with the next one.
I'm up for changes that make life easier but at the end of the day it really doesn't matter about the selection process, I just want to take photographs, learn a bit and meet a few friends on the way!
gubbs.smugmug.com
Eric
It's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not.
http://photosbyeric.smugmug.com
The limitations of the software prohibit the possibility of everyone voting for all entries. (we have been told that many times) I am a member on an art site that has a rating system and has periodic contests. The rating system for all posted work was shut off for a long time because people complained that they weren't getting the ratings that they "should". The ratings weren't issued by one person, or a panel of judges...they were voted on by EVERYONE that went to the site and saw their work. The contests that they run are kept anonymous until the voting is over. People still complain that the system isn't fair. Again, EVERYONE gets to vote on EVERY entry, and people don't like it!
My point is that nothing will satisfy everyone, and there are just some people that are happier when they are unhappy. Those, unfortunately, are the ones that make the most noise and cause the most headaches...and are the reason that we are all debating this topic. I don't mind hearing new ideas, but it seems like these are just the same old ideas all over again.
:deadhorse (this is the FUNNIEST smilie, btw!)
So, what are MY suggestions, you ask? I dont' have any because I am not unhappy with our current system. If things do change, I'm sure I'll be fine with that too.
www.PhotoByLaurie.com
If the software can only handle 10 pics, could multiple voting threads be put
up, whereas say 40 pics were entered, set up 4 voting polls, people could
vote once in each poll for a day, then the top few could go into a finale
vote. This could be tricky because of ties, but I'm sure something could be
worked out.
Just a point because I'm newer to the challenges here. I have been entering
the challenges at Dpreview for about a year and a half. I have never won,
and I have never thought that I have been cheated. In the few challenges
that I have been in here, most of the comments after are something like
"I knew that was the winner the 1st time I saw it." I believe that this
is normaly the case. One pic will just stand above the rest.
Anyhow, I would think this may save Andy some time, and every picture
gets the chance to be voted on.
dave.
Basking in the shadows of yesterday's triumphs'.
actually, setting up voting for 40 or 50 or i hope 100! entries takes a lot of time, dave. it's not as easy as it sounds. for example, for each entry that's "attached" instead of hotlinked, i have to upload that to a smugmug gallery, and grab the link, and embed it myself into the voting threads. as it is, it takes a while to get it right in the current system ...
thanks for the suggestion though!
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
we're now 50 posts into this thread and the consistent message is that someone will always find fault with whatever method is employed to determine winners.
in my experience I have found that in situations like this people who tend to gripe have issues that have more to do with control than with winning.
for my money this site is just fine the way it is. if my photos don't get picked for the top 10 and don't win then I'd better get my a** in gear and work harder, or stop entering. simple really!
can we move on? we should be expending all of this energy on our art not our egos.
Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
smugmug gallery? You know where I'm going with this, it would be more like
the Dpreview challenge, and it would be easier for you to link the photos
to the polling thread. I know those challenges have been hijacked by some
doorknobs and added measures had to be taken. But maybe this would
be a way to vote for every pic, and help you out.
dave.
Basking in the shadows of yesterday's triumphs'.
I think the challenge is not really about winning but about going through the process of creating and improving, while being possible to have a perception of how others personally view and interpret our work.
Thus, as with any art form, the feeling of a certain majority of people is not always coincident with our own/other people than that feelings about it, and that does not make it less valuable.
Roger
Will you please stop being so reasonable and get with the program?
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
now, having gotten that out of the way, this thread was an attempt to start an outlet to toss around ideas in the hopes of coming up with a solution. After reading the last few posts I feel like I have to defend myself as a "newbie" for having an opinion that things can always improve at any point in time. I'm idealistic like that. I was taking the constructive criticism that was trying to emerge from the "support" thread from the keyboards of other people -- newbies and old-schoolers alike -- and place it in a thread that didn't involve any poo-flinging.
point being, there were more than newbies that saw a chance to improve but I guess that's what this thread has come to. Fish put it best when he said this thread should be about "brainstorming not blamestorming."
I did learn a lot from this thread thanks to some comments from andy and others who have judged previously, I think that shed some light that not all people were aware of regarding the judging process.
Bottomline this has nothing to do with my submission to the last challenge, so what? I don't do this to win. I think I've made that pretty clear before and hopefully have done so here again.
Thanks.
My last comment (#49) was simply an attempt to finally wrap this up because I was reading much the same in all of the posts.
Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
cb
www.PhotoByLaurie.com
Angelo, I try not to be the grammar police, but using illicit when you meant elicit made me laugh.
il·lic·it ** *
Not sanctioned by custom or law; unlawful.
e·lic·it **
To bring or draw out (something latent); educe.
To arrive at (a truth, for example) by logic.
To call forth, draw out, or provoke (a reaction, for example).
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What is particularly funny about your posting is I found myself starting a pedantic thread of my own, since abandoned, with details about the proper use of the adjective "too" vs the preposition "to" as well as the proper use of contractions; ie. "you're" for "you are" vs "your". Have you tallied the number of errors of this type? That no doubt would bring about side-splitting laughter.
Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
Charlie, you have a camera. Time to enter a Challenge.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
and loads more here
i've given up trying to correct the problem. i now simply snicker...
sigh
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According to the NY Times style guide, this one is technically correct. Mostly because of appearance I think - it looks odd to have a letter beside a number all on its lonesome.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au