Harry http://behret.smugmug.com/NANPA member How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
I don't mean to rain on your parade, but less than 5% difference in CSI is not something I would bet my judgement upon...
Essentially what those number say - they are all there...
I don't mean to rain on your parade, but less than 5% difference in CSI is not something I would bet my judgement upon...
Essentially what those number say - they are all there...
No, you're not raining on my parade. I agree that the difference may not be statistically significant. But it suggests that they are all pretty close.
I'll bet this result reflects Canon's one size fits all approch to the low end of the market. While I am sure the 400D is a fine body (I have never used it), I expect people who buy Canon are more likely to see a mismatch between what they bought and what they wanted.
Personally, while I love my 5D, I bought into the Canon line for their lenses not their bodies. I'll bet that people who have used their camera with anything other than the kit lens are statistically irrelevant in this survey.
The interesting tidbit I noted was the last paragraph about who rates the highest in the Point and Shoot camera category...
"In the premium point-and-shoot category, Canon wins hands down, with a score of 829 that's head and shoulders above the next, Panasonic's DMC-FZ series at 785 and a number of others. The other Canon PowerShot lines--A, G and S--ended up in sixth, seventh and eighth places.:"
Not sure what this really means, but it does suggest Canon isn't doing that bad
The interesting tidbit I noted was the last paragraph about who rates the highest in the Point and Shoot camera category...
"In the premium point-and-shoot category, Canon wins hands down, with a score of 829 that's head and shoulders above the next, Panasonic's DMC-FZ series at 785 and a number of others. The other Canon PowerShot lines--A, G and S--ended up in sixth, seventh and eighth places.:"
Not sure what this really means, but it does suggest Canon isn't doing that bad
Jim,
same 5% error margin. I would simply ignore it and call it a day...
Here is another link www.jdpower.com/electronics/ratings/digital_camera/dslr
Nikon edges out all the other camera makers. But of course, they didn't take into account the new D3 or D300 otherwise you would have gotten your statistical significant 5%.
How can they possibly account for two models that just got announced this week? You could say the same thing about the 40D and 1Ds Mk III--and those are apparently hitting shelves already.
My gut feeling is that there's something fishy about the survey. As Mark Twain once said: there's lies, damn lies, and statistics.
How can they possibly account for two models that just got announced this week? You could say the same thing about the 40D and 1Ds Mk III--and those are apparently hitting shelves already.
My gut feeling is that there's something fishy about the survey. As Mark Twain once said: there's lies, damn lies, and statistics.
What's so hard to understand? They take a survery of DSLR users and publish the results. The results reflect user satisfaction at the time of the poll and of course won't reflect user satisfaction for cameras not released at the time of the poll. There's nothing in the report that speaks to the D3 or the D300.
The fact that Canon came in third behind Nikon and Sony doesn't mean that the cameras are better only that their users are more satisfied.
For Canonites unhappy with these results you can say:
1. Since most of the users were using entry level cameras they really weren't "informed" users.
2. A popularity poll means nothing about techinal excellence. After all reruns of the Beverly Hillbillies always draw more viewers than Shakespeare.
3. Don't they know about 'L" glass?
4. wait until next year
:ivar
Harry http://behret.smugmug.com/NANPA member How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
I can believe it; I was considering the d-slr. If it had better noise control from the camera I might have bit. Wondering how many Sony shooters on here or Nature Photographer's Network? I can also believe where Pentax sits from my experience with mine.
I was looking at pass ratings for dSLR's and olympus was rated #1 in 2005 and 2006. Nikon came in #2 in both those years. It seems Nikons newest cameras have been capturing the publics eyes more so each year. Canon seemed to do better in the lower end camera catergories (just as I thought ).
It is good to be a Nikon owner these days, things just keep getting better...
Jim,
same 5% error margin. I would simply ignore it and call it a day...
I think these kind of poles are set pieces with a goal in mind before they are ever conducted.
I was once asked a series of questions by a government survey, but they restricted the answers to one of four pre-configured answers!! There was no way to answer the question if you disagreed with their under lying premise entirely. I finally hung up on the surveyor as it was so obviously designed to support a pre-conceived result.
I don't mean to rain on your parade, but less than 5% difference in CSI is not something I would bet my judgement upon...
Essentially what those number say - they are all there...
Actually Nik, 5% is very significant statistically speaking, and as this is an inaugural satisfaction poll, the real interest will be to see how these numbers change in a year, and over a few years. Actually, it was only a few years ago that Kodak was the leader in a similar poll, but it's been reworked for this year.
Actually Nik, 5% is very significant statistically speaking, and as this is an inaugural satisfaction poll, the real interest will be to see how these numbers change in a year, and over a few years. Actually, it was only a few years ago that Kodak was the leader in a similar poll, but it's been reworked for this year.
Well, for the last three years in a row, Canon hasn't been above 3rd place... seems like more than just a mood swing. scratch
Well, if you ask me, it's been in the first place all those years, just like many other things that I personally like. CSI is for CEOs and CFOs, we mere mortals have to have our own brains to make our own decisions - and stay by them
Mark, over a measly 1000 respondents, 5% is nothing. Just the mood swings alone would count for this.
In the end, all those surveys are just darn marketing tools, nothing else. Most are rigged, and the rest ain't mean much anyway.
And I agree: important thing is that we happy with what we have :-)
This is fast becoming one of my favorite threads. I have neve seen folks so anxious to discredit a survey. Its even funnier when they absolutely have nothing to discredit the report with other than their own assertions. I mean its not like they said the Mark III couldn't focus properly.
BTW they said that "Nikon is the clear leader in customer satisfaction among DSLR customers in the United States". They also said "It (Nikon) dominates in digital DSLRs".
I see Nikon was up today on the market 1.13% while Canon fell 1.54%. Maybe the poll was responsible for that. :ivar
Harry http://behret.smugmug.com/NANPA member How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
What's so hard to understand? They take a survery of DSLR users and publish the results. The results reflect user satisfaction at the time of the poll and of course won't reflect user satisfaction for cameras not released at the time of the poll. There's nothing in the report that speaks to the D3 or the D300.
The fact that Canon came in third behind Nikon and Sony doesn't mean that the cameras are better only that their users are more satisfied.
For Canonites unhappy with these results you can say:
1. Since most of the users were using entry level cameras they really weren't "informed" users.
2. A popularity poll means nothing about techinal excellence. After all reruns of the Beverly Hillbillies always draw more viewers than Shakespeare.
3. Don't they know about 'L" glass?
4. wait until next year
:ivar
I'm not sure why you singled my post out, I thought I was one of the more mild ones. I was simply pointing out the survey could not account for the new announcements--for two reasons: 1) it had top have been completed before they were even announced and 2) nobody's got them in their hands.
The first two excuses crossed my mind. But then I reminded myself not to be a fanboy (it bugs me when I see others doing that, so I try not to).:smack What struck me as odd about it is the comparative user base; it seems incongruous that more people choose Canon, yet fewer report being happy with the choice.
In the end, this survey is meaningless to each of our own happiness with our gear, so we really shouldn't be getting to wound up about it. Stop. Take a deep breath. Move on.
Having been in business of automotive parts supply for 15 years up until very recently, I do agree that the folks most interested in these surveys are marketing folks and CEO's, etc. But Nik, as a statistician by education, I can tell you that you'll have a very hard time discrediting the survey from the standpoint of "statistical significance." That significance is born out by the fact that they can charge for the use of their symbols in advertising.
Another thought that is not exposed to us in the data (as far as I can see...) is that it is highly likely that the overall population of survey participants was dominated by Canonites, figuring that Canonites are actually the vast majority of dslr owners... So if this is true, and we can't verify it, it seems to follow logically that the results on Canon are more significant compared to Nikon.. Just a thought to throw some light into the dark side....
So c'mon Darth, git yerself a new Nikon light-saber, and yer mood swings won't be so bad.. c'mon, not that hard to do....
I think it's a good indication that Canon isn't upgrading their products as well as the others do, and folks don't like paying for minimal upgrades.
At least when Nikon came out with their new cams, a person could read the specs and see that things had changed.
Canon, lets see. 350D to 400D, the later has more noise at ISO400 than the 350D. Great upgrade.
20D to 30D. Same chip, same focusing, same processor, bigger LCD. Wow, another huge upgrade.
Should I talk about the recall for the 70-300is lens? (it took 8 months before the recall was made) I had a factory rep tell me 2 months before the recall that there was nothing wrong with the lens design, and it was my fault the pictures were blurry. After the fix they aren't burry anymore.
How about all the folks talking about getting "bad copies" of "L" lenses?
Now I know that some of these folks are new to the DSLR game, and wouldn't know a good lens from a bad one. But if I (or you) go into the store and try 5 different "L" lenses, (but of the same model) and clearly one stands out above the rest, that company has some problems.
I'm not sure why you singled my post out, I thought I was one of the more mild ones. I was simply pointing out the survey could not account for the new announcements--for two reasons: 1) it had top have been completed before they were even announced and 2) nobody's got them in their hands.
The first two excuses crossed my mind. But then I reminded myself not to be a fanboy (it bugs me when I see others doing that, so I try not to).:smack What struck me as odd about it is the comparative user base; it seems incongruous that more people choose Canon, yet fewer report being happy with the choice.
In the end, this survey is meaningless to each of our own happiness with our gear, so we really shouldn't be getting to wound up about it. Stop. Take a deep breath. Move on.
I wasn't trying to single you out. I just used your post to reply to because it was the last one.
I find the whole thing hilarious because it really doesn't mean anything. The only user poll I use is the "Harry Poll". I asked myself "are you happy with your cameras" My response was "yes". So Nikon scored 100% on the Harry Poll. I don't give a hoot how other users feel.
Harry http://behret.smugmug.com/NANPA member How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
Having been in business of automotive parts supply for 15 years up until very recently, I do agree that the folks most interested in these surveys are marketing folks and CEO's, etc. But Nik, as a statistician by education, I can tell you that you'll have a very hard time discrediting the survey from the standpoint of "statistical significance." That significance is born out by the fact that they can charge for the use of their symbols in advertising.
Another thought that is not exposed to us in the data (as far as I can see...) is that it is highly likely that the overall population of survey participants was dominated by Canonites, figuring that Canonites are actually the vast majority of dslr owners... So if this is true, and we can't verify it, it seems to follow logically that the results on Canon are more significant compared to Nikon.. Just a thought to throw some light into the dark side....
So c'mon Darth, git yerself a new Nikon light-saber, and yer mood swings won't be so bad.. c'mon, not that hard to do....
OK, OK, I give up. It was a mistake to try to bring any kind of math to an obviously heated topic of N-vs-C
May the force be with ya!
I find the whole thing hilarious because it really doesn't mean anything. The only user poll I use is the "Harry Poll". I asked myself "are you happy with your cameras" My response was "yes". So Nikon scored 100% on the Harry Poll. I don't give a hoot how other users feel.
*ding* We have a winner. Just go out and shoot. Who cares what everyone else thinks? It's your equipment, not theirs.
Comments
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
Essentially what those number say - they are all there...
I saw that too. Surveys, like elections, are always a source of some mystery to me. Neither is completely predictable nor completely explainable.
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
So that's a good thing for all photographers, right. (I still bet Canon corporate is POed.)
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
Personally, while I love my 5D, I bought into the Canon line for their lenses not their bodies. I'll bet that people who have used their camera with anything other than the kit lens are statistically irrelevant in this survey.
"In the premium point-and-shoot category, Canon wins hands down, with a score of 829 that's head and shoulders above the next, Panasonic's DMC-FZ series at 785 and a number of others. The other Canon PowerShot lines--A, G and S--ended up in sixth, seventh and eighth places.:"
Not sure what this really means, but it does suggest Canon isn't doing that bad
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Jim,
same 5% error margin. I would simply ignore it and call it a day...
www.jdpower.com/electronics/ratings/digital_camera/dslr
Nikon edges out all the other camera makers. But of course, they didn't take into account the new D3 or D300 otherwise you would have gotten your statistical significant 5%.
http://www.youtube.com/user/NYCFilmmakersGroup
http://www.meetup.com/NYC-Filmmakers-and-Actors-Meetup-Group/
My gut feeling is that there's something fishy about the survey. As Mark Twain once said: there's lies, damn lies, and statistics.
http://www.chrislaudermilkphoto.com/
What's so hard to understand?
The fact that Canon came in third behind Nikon and Sony
For Canonites unhappy with these results you can say:
1. Since most of the users were using entry level cameras they really weren't "informed" users.
2. A popularity poll means nothing about techinal excellence. After all reruns of the Beverly Hillbillies always draw more viewers than Shakespeare.
3. Don't they know about 'L" glass?
4. wait until next year
:ivar
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
dak.smugmug.com
It is good to be a Nikon owner these days, things just keep getting better...
http://www.youtube.com/user/NYCFilmmakersGroup
http://www.meetup.com/NYC-Filmmakers-and-Actors-Meetup-Group/
I think these kind of poles are set pieces with a goal in mind before they are ever conducted.
I was once asked a series of questions by a government survey, but they restricted the answers to one of four pre-configured answers!! There was no way to answer the question if you disagreed with their under lying premise entirely. I finally hung up on the surveyor as it was so obviously designed to support a pre-conceived result.
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
There isn't particularly anything wrong with the poll, or JD Power. But here's how it works.
When you win the award you get a great looking trophy. If you want to use the image of the trophy in your advertising, you pay a fee to JD power.
I don't know the specifics of every industry, but it's not cheap.
Not a thing is wrong with any of it. But I think it's important to know the rules.
http://georgesphotos.net
Actually Nik, 5% is very significant statistically speaking, and as this is an inaugural satisfaction poll, the real interest will be to see how these numbers change in a year, and over a few years. Actually, it was only a few years ago that Kodak was the leader in a similar poll, but it's been reworked for this year.
Check out the actual JD Power survey here:
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2007048
And notice that it is not Sony, but Pentax that is in 2nd place in the DSLR category, Canon in third and below average!
Anyway, I like my camera(s)and I'm perfectly happy that Nik likes his! That's 100% to me....
www.HoofClix.com / Personal Facebook / Facebook Page
and I do believe its true.. that there are roads left in both of our shoes..
Mark, over a measly 1000 respondents, 5% is nothing. Just the mood swings alone would count for this.
In the end, all those surveys are just darn marketing tools, nothing else. Most are rigged, and the rest ain't mean much anyway.
And I agree: important thing is that we happy with what we have :-)
Well, for the last three years in a row, Canon hasn't been above 3rd place... seems like more than just a mood swing.
http://www.youtube.com/user/NYCFilmmakersGroup
http://www.meetup.com/NYC-Filmmakers-and-Actors-Meetup-Group/
This is fast becoming one of my favorite threads. I have neve seen folks so anxious to discredit a survey. Its even funnier when they absolutely have nothing to discredit the report with other than their own assertions. I mean its not like they said the Mark III couldn't focus properly.
BTW they said that "Nikon is the clear leader in customer satisfaction among DSLR customers in the United States". They also said "It (Nikon) dominates in digital DSLRs".
I see Nikon was up today on the market 1.13% while Canon fell 1.54%. Maybe the poll was responsible for that.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
http://www.youtube.com/user/NYCFilmmakersGroup
http://www.meetup.com/NYC-Filmmakers-and-Actors-Meetup-Group/
I'm not sure why you singled my post out, I thought I was one of the more mild ones.
The first two excuses crossed my mind. But then I reminded myself not to be a fanboy (it bugs me when I see others doing that, so I try not to).:smack What struck me as odd about it is the comparative user base; it seems incongruous that more people choose Canon, yet fewer report being happy with the choice.
In the end, this survey is meaningless to each of our own happiness with our gear, so we really shouldn't be getting to wound up about it. Stop. Take a deep breath. Move on.
http://www.chrislaudermilkphoto.com/
Another thought that is not exposed to us in the data (as far as I can see...) is that it is highly likely that the overall population of survey participants was dominated by Canonites, figuring that Canonites are actually the vast majority of dslr owners... So if this is true, and we can't verify it, it seems to follow logically that the results on Canon are more significant compared to Nikon.. Just a thought to throw some light into the dark side....
So c'mon Darth, git yerself a new Nikon light-saber, and yer mood swings won't be so bad.. c'mon, not that hard to do....
www.HoofClix.com / Personal Facebook / Facebook Page
and I do believe its true.. that there are roads left in both of our shoes..
At least when Nikon came out with their new cams, a person could read the specs and see that things had changed.
Canon, lets see. 350D to 400D, the later has more noise at ISO400 than the 350D. Great upgrade.
20D to 30D. Same chip, same focusing, same processor, bigger LCD. Wow, another huge upgrade.
Should I talk about the recall for the 70-300is lens? (it took 8 months before the recall was made) I had a factory rep tell me 2 months before the recall that there was nothing wrong with the lens design, and it was my fault the pictures were blurry. After the fix they aren't burry anymore.
How about all the folks talking about getting "bad copies" of "L" lenses?
Now I know that some of these folks are new to the DSLR game, and wouldn't know a good lens from a bad one. But if I (or you) go into the store and try 5 different "L" lenses, (but of the same model) and clearly one stands out above the rest, that company has some problems.
Basking in the shadows of yesterday's triumphs'.
I wasn't trying to single you out. I just used your post to reply to because it was the last one.
I find the whole thing hilarious because it really doesn't mean anything. The only user poll I use is the "Harry Poll". I asked myself "are you happy with your cameras" My response was "yes". So Nikon scored 100% on the Harry Poll. I don't give a hoot how other users feel.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
OK, OK, I give up. It was a mistake to try to bring any kind of math to an obviously heated topic of N-vs-C
May the force be with ya!
tristansphotography.com (motorsports)
Canon 20D | 10-22 | 17-85 IS | 50/1.4 | 70-300 IS | 100/2.8 macro
Sony F717 | Hoya R72
As if data could solve this problem...! Just funnin' ya, Nik..
www.HoofClix.com / Personal Facebook / Facebook Page
and I do believe its true.. that there are roads left in both of our shoes..