#12

davev

Can you find any virtue in this shot, cause I'm stumped.
Can innocence be considered as virtue? I don't know.
You decide.

saurora

Adorable shot! I was checking out Wiki this morning and there are all kinds of things considered virtues that I wasn't aware of. Innocence is amongst them. So (as usual) it will be totally dependent upon how lenient the judges are and whether or not they are even aware of all the possible interpretations that could be used for one simple word. Not the answer you were probably looking for IMO, but I would say "yes" because innocence indicates a lack of guilt, crime, "sin"....

Tentacion

The 7 Sins -vs- The 7 Virtues "

Sin - Virtue
Pride (vanity) - Humility (modesty)
Envy (jealousy) - Kindness (admiration)
Wrath (anger) - Forgiveness (composure)
Sloth (laziness/idleness) - Diligence (zeal/integrity/Labor)
Greed (avarice) - Charity (giving)
Gluttony (over-indulgence) - Temperance (self-restraint)
Lust (excessive sexual appetites) - Chastity (purity)

Dee

Tentacion wrote:

The 7 Sins -vs- The 7 Virtues "

Sin - Virtue
Pride (vanity) - Humility (modesty)
Envy (jealousy) - Kindness (admiration)
Wrath (anger) - Forgiveness (composure)
Sloth (laziness/idleness) - Diligence (zeal/integrity/Labor)
Greed (avarice) - Charity (giving)
Gluttony (over-indulgence) - Temperance (self-restraint)
Lust (excessive sexual appetites) - Chastity (purity)

Thanks! This is great!

Gary Glass

I like it. Except for the grey background. To my mind, it makes the shot much more subdued. Maybe B&W? Maybe colorize the background?

leaforte

Youth is a virtue. This shot is cool. The sharp focus top right, leading outward (downward?) to bottom left is interesting. The model is striking, and the bottle in the forefront gives it a commercial feel...not a bad thing. Thanks for sharing. PS: Beautiful eyes on the model.

davev

Thanks folks.

Here's the shot in B&W.
I don't think it does anything for this shot.

Justiceiro

leaforte wrote:

Youth is a virtue. This shot is cool. The sharp focus top right, leading outward (downward?) to bottom left is interesting. The model is striking, and the bottle in the forefront gives it a commercial feel...not a bad thing. Thanks for sharing. PS: Beautiful eyes on the model.

I disagree. I think that youth is a quality or characteristic, but not a "virtue" in the sense of the LPS. It could be said that youth is a "pleasure" or "advantage", but this is not identical to virtue. I'm thinking more along the line of the classic formulation of vice and virtue, like tentacion posted. This is a cool photo, but it seems very off theme to me. Perhaps you could reshoot it in a way more suggestive of corruption or preservation of "innocence." Innocence alone is, by definition, neither virtuous or corrupt because it is the condition of being unable to distinguish between vice and virtue. Both a baby and a man-eating tiger, really, are innocent.

Felicia

Justiceiro wrote:

I disagree. I think that youth is a quality or characteristic, but not a "virtue" in the sense of the LPS. It could be said that youth is a "pleasure" or "advantage", but this is not identical to virtue. I'm thinking more along the line of the classic formulation of vice and virtue, like tentacion posted. This is a cool photo, but it seems very off theme to me. Perhaps you could reshoot it in a way more suggestive of corruption or preservation of "innocence." Innocence alone is, by definition, neither virtuous or corrupt because it is the condition of being unable to distinguish between vice and virtue. Both a baby and a man-eating tiger, really, are innocent.

To expand on your statement, a virtue is a conscious choice in a blessed direction vs. a vice is a conscious choice in a cursed direction? A virtue will lead one to being blessed or being a blessing to someone while a vice will lead one to being cursed or being a curse on someone?

Of all the LPS I've participated in so far, this is the toughest one for me to figure out how to capture.

Can I just say that I want to pick up that baby and give him(her?) a great big squishy hug?

HoofClix

Dave, I absolutely love your photo. Great lighting and exposure, angle, expression.. Precious... But sorry to say that, IMO, doesn't meet the theme. I agree with Ryan. Innocence is no more virtuous than it would be sinful. Not wanting to describe any example of what I'm thinking, but if the boy were doing something horribly evil in this same innocent frame, would you say that innocence is sin?

Keep shooting, and save the idea for when innocence comes up as a theme!

davev

Thanks folks.

Although it may or may not follow the theme to a T, I won't have time for shooting anything else this week, so there it is.

Thanks for your opinions.

Tentacion

David, I love your photo. and in my minds eye it FITS the theme...."Purity" is a virture....Tell me...How is a BABY NOT Pure?

Babies are free of Sin, have no knowledge of Bad or Good or Indifferent, they just want to be fed, cleaned, taken care and Loved!! (and these are choices that are natural and the law of the jungle)

A baby does not know about Sex, Violence, Lust, Charity, A BABY KNOWS NOTHING. A Baby is as pure as the white snow that falls.....it is as the child grows and starts to become aware of its surroundings, it becomes aware of lots of things..but remember when they become of aware of things alot of it is learned behavior.

I believe Purity was a Virtue of Chastity and I do think that a baby refrains from sex...lol lol lol lol.

Great Shot...

davev

Is innocence a virtue? I don't know. I'll let the judges decide.

Maybe I should have used his cheese cake shot instead?


Hey baby, you want some of this?

Tentacion

davev wrote:

Is innocence a virtue? I don't know. I'll let the judges decide.

Maybe I should have used his cheese cake shot instead?


Hey baby, you want some of this?

OMGawddddddddddd, I'm Dyin Ova Here (Best Boston Accent)....That is WAYYYYY Too Funny!!! Love that Title Too!!! What a FABULOUS Shot....and that baby looked so into ....Yeah that Baby Was Workin' It, BIG TIME !!! Remember, I said....It is a LEARNED behavior....Hmmm, I wonder who he learned it from...

Felicia

davev wrote:

Is innocence a virtue? I don't know. I'll let the judges decide.

Maybe I should have used his cheese cake shot instead?


Hey baby, you want some of this?

:lol4Ohhhh!!! That's good!!

Justiceiro

Tentacion wrote:

A baby does not know about Sex, Violence, Lust, Charity, A BABY KNOWS NOTHING.

This is why I think a baby shot is totally innapropriate for a category such as virtue. From virtus ‘valour, merit, moral perfection, en essential quality of virtue is the idea that it is an act or state of being that requires knowledge, and implies choice. The concept of virtue is inextricably linked to the idea of morality. Babies are certainly not immoral, but neither are they moral. They are amoral.

Gary Glass

Virtue has a range of meanings. The virtue of prayer. The virtue of necessity. A girl loses her virtue. The virtue went out of him.

An innocent child reminds us of the purity of guilelessness. A child may not have virtue in the strict sense of moral probity, but neither has the child lost virtue. She does not possess virtue; she inhabits it. The innocence of the child proclaims to the rest of us the virtue of virtue itself. The virtue of the child lies in her effect on us. Much like the virtue in a photograph.

Justiceiro

Gary Glass wrote:

An innocent child reminds us of the purity of guilelessness. A child may not have virtue in the strict sense of moral probity, but neither has the child lost virtue.

I really can't agree. It is true that a child hasn't "lost" virtue, having never possesed it, or exercised it. The same could be said about my never having lost the ability to speak Japanese. However, if the theme was "speaking japanese" I don't believe that a picture of myself would be a very good choice for a submission.

She does not possess virtue; she inhabits it.

I don't mean to be offensive, but this seems to me to be wordplay. Any conception of virtue (particularly when juxtaposed with sin or vice) seems, as I have said before, inextricably linked with moral choice, or arete, or some kind of condition or action that is entirely adult.

The innocence of the child proclaims to the rest of us the virtue of virtue itself. The virtue of the child lies in her effect on us. Much like the virtue in a photograph.

If you accept this idea, then you are abandoning the idea of virtue as being anything beyond good, nice, or pleasent. I think this theme is an excellent opportunity to submit images that have a great deal of literary depth to them. If you are going to submit something on the theme of virtue, I want to see something that appeals to me the way this passage does:

What in me is dark
Illumine, what is low raise and support;
That to the height of this great argument
I may assert eternal Providence,
And justify the ways of God to men.

I want something transendental, or corrupt. Something that epitomizes these two ideas.

I think we are falling too much into the vice of sentimentality. This is photography's greatest vice, as sentimentality obscures truth. This is particularly true in the case of children. I am reminded of what Donna Tartt said in reference to the subject. "I think innocence is something that adults project upon children that's not really there"

Tentacion

pu·ri·ty (pyʊr'ĭ-tē) n.

1. The quality or condition of being pure.
2. A quantitative assessment of homogeneity or uniformity.
3. Freedom from sin or guilt; innocence; chastity: “Teach your children . . . the belief in purity of body, mind and soul” (Emmeline Pankhurst).
4. The absence in speech or writing of slang or other elements deemed inappropriate to good style.
5. The degree to which a color is free from being mixed with other colors

I guess we are looking at a different dictionary and/or thesaurus....

davev

Justiceiro wrote:

I want something transendental, or corrupt. Something that epitomizes these two ideas.

Well, it's good to know that you're not hard to please.:D

Justiceiro wrote:

I am reminded of what Donna Tartt said in reference to the subject. "I think innocence is something that adults project upon children that's not really there"

At what point in life does it show up then?
When the kid can walk, talk, learn to cry to get something?
I think the sin/virtue, good/bad thing starts way before you think it does.

Like I said in my first post, I don't know if it shows virtue or not.
Obviously I feel it does, you and the judges may not, and that's OK.
I feel like I already got something out of this challenge by being able to get
so many opinions on a simple shot of a toddler sitting on the floor, drinking his milk.

Conversation/discussion like this about a shot is all one can hope for.

Thanks.

Gary Glass

If you accept this idea, then you are abandoning the idea of virtue as being anything beyond good, nice, or pleasent.

As I said in my post, the word has a range of meanings and connotations. Perhaps you're evaluating the contest theme more narrowly than it needs to be. Certainly more narrowly than I would do (if I were a judge).

A dove suggests purity to me. And purity is a virtue (broadly construed). If a dove can symbolize purity, why can't the guileless eyes of a child?

HoofClix

I have to admit that in the banter I may have actually been swayed to see the concept of virtue in much broader terms, yet the photograph being discussed still fails to move me to think of either sin or virtue!

I also remind y'all of a couple of things, that the judges, still "TBA," are not to have read any of these threads before making their decisions, so they'll go into judging with whatever raw ideas they have on the words, AND... remember the theory proven time and again throughout this LPS: "a great photo trumps any and all adherence to theme!"

:photo

Gary Glass

A great photo trumps any and all adherence to theme!

A more virtuous pronouncement has seldom been uttered.

Tentacion

hoofclix wrote:

A great photo trumps any and all adherence to theme!

Gary Glass wrote:

A more virtuous pronouncement has seldom been uttered.

Hear Ye Hear Ye, Truer Words Have Not been Said thru this the Gran Forum Hall....

I Tend to Agree, as the Judges (no offense) are really not what one would consider PRO Judges, so the EYE and MIND can be first easily SWAYED by the WOW factor of the Photo and NOT by the Theme that should meet the critiria for judging FIRST, then secondly the Tech's should come into play...hey but that is just my mind's eye looking at it...

Justiceiro

Tentacion wrote:

pu·ri·ty (pyʊr'ĭ-tē) n.

1. The quality or condition of being pure.
2. A quantitative assessment of homogeneity or uniformity.
3. Freedom from sin or guilt; innocence; chastity: “Teach your children . . . the belief in purity of body, mind and soul” (Emmeline Pankhurst).
4. The absence in speech or writing of slang or other elements deemed inappropriate to good style.
5. The degree to which a color is free from being mixed with other colors

I guess we are looking at a different dictionary and/or thesaurus....

We may be looking at the same dictionary, but we are clearly looking at different words. The theme is not purity, it is virtue. Virtue is not freedom from sin or guilt- if you want to get theological about it, the sinful can also be virtuous, or else human virtue would be impossible. In a real sense, virtue can only exist alongside the real existence, or capacity, for sin. This is an interesting vein for us to mine, artistically speaking. It would be a shame to pass it up.


Davev: Am I hard to please? I suppose so. You asked our opinions on the photo. My opinion is that it is a good photo, but doesn't even remotely approach the theme.

Justiceiro

HoofClix wrote:

"a great photo trumps any and all adherence to theme!"

:photo

I disagree. It's one thing to interpret broadly. It is another thing not to interpret.

The meanings of words may be conflated in colloqiual way, (I grit my teeth whenever I hear some pundit on CNN talking about GW's "penultimate act of arrogance") but words still have meaning. If we conflate their meanings too much, they cease to be effective tools for discussion or thought.

If a good photo truly trumped any and all adherence to theme, woudl this be a good entry?

HoofClix

Justiceiro wrote:

I disagree. It's one thing to interpret broadly. It is another thing not to interpret.

The meanings of words may be conflated in colloqiual way, (I grit my teeth whenever I hear some pundit on CNN talking about GW's "penultimate act of arrogance") but words still have meaning. If we conflate their meanings too much, they cease to be effective tools for discussion or thought.

If a good photo truly trumped any and all adherence to theme, woudl this be a good entry?

Well Ryan, to first answer your ultimate question, I used my magnifying glass, and deep inside this family reunion photo I found not one, not two, but three instances of sin, each of the four syllable "tion" type, before I stopped looking and was satisfied! So I would say that this entry, being not only a great photograph, fits the theme to a "t." I think, however, that it's a little outside of the period required by the rules.. You should reassemble the family and attempt a reshoot.

Now, of course, on to the philosophical discussion that's underway, my comment wasn't a statement of the way that it should be here in LPS land, but my own editorial "lingua nella boca" opinion on the way that it is here in LPS land. In light of my own dashed expectations from the exit polls of LPS11 and the actual results thereof, I will state another opinion for debate, that I am thouroughly over this and am on to figuring out what I will enter in LPS12........ Looking forward to seeing your entry as well. I know it will be creative!

Tentacion

Oh Yeah.....People.....Lets move on to SIN ......or would that be VIRTUE for some.......but SIN is so much Fun....:D

"Good Girls Go To Heaven, But Bad Girls Have All The Fun"...

---

Virtue (Latin virtus; Greek ἀρετή) is moral excellence of a person. A virtue is a character trait valued as being good. The conceptual opposite of virtue is vice.

According to its etymology the word virtue (Latin virtus) signifies manliness or courage. Taken in its widest sense virtue means the excellence of perfection of a thing, just as vice, its contrary, denotes a defect or absence of perfection due to a thing. In its strictest meaning, however, as used by moral philosophers and theologians, virtue is an operative habit essentially good, as distinguished from vice, an operative habit essentially evil. The four cardinal (hinge) virtues are Justice, Courage, Wisdom, and Moderation. These were enumerated by the Greek philosophers. The three supernatural virtues of Faith, Hope and (unselfish) Love are part of the Christian tradition. Both the natural and supernatural virtues depend on a person's understanding that truth can be discovered. Modernist views are at odds with this idea.

Virtue can also be meant in another way. Virtue can either have normative or moral value; i.e. the virtue of a knife is to cut, the virtue of an excellent knife is to cut well (this is its normative value) vs. the virtues of reason, prudence, chastity, etc. (which have moral value).

In the Greek it is more properly called ἠθικὴ ἀρετή (ēthikē aretē). It is "habitual excellence". It is something practiced at all times. The virtue of perseverance is needed for all and any virtue since it is a habit of character and must be used continuously in order for any person to maintain oneself in virtue. However, Friedrich Nietzsche stated that 'when virtue has slept, it will arise all the more vigorous'.

Value system is the ordered and prioritized set of values (usually of the ethical and doctrinal categories described above) that an individual or society holds.

Some virtues (a virtue is a character trait valued as being good) recognized in various Western cultures of the world include:

(I guess that would be USA WESTERN CULTURE...Which may be the reason for this debate.....OO)

acceptance
altruism
appreciation
assertiveness
autonomy
awareness
balance
being beautiful in spirit
benevolence
charity
chastity
cleanliness
commitment
compassion
confidence
consciousness
consideration
continence
cooperativeness
courage
courteousness
creativity
critical thinking
cunning
curiosity
dependability
detachment
determination
diligence
discipline
empathy
endurance
enthusiasm
excellence
fairness
faith
fidelity
flexibility
focus
foresight
forgiveness
fortitude
freedom
free will
friendliness
generosity
happiness
helpfulness
honesty
honour
hopefulness
hospitality
humility
humor
idealism
imagination
impartiality
independence
innocence ****
integrity
intuition
inventiveness
joy
justice
kindness
lovingness
loyalty
mercy
moderation
manners
modesty
morality
nonviolence
nurturing
obedience
openness
optimism
patience
peacefulness
perfection
perseverance
piety
potential
prudence
purity
purposefulness
respectfulness
responsibility
restraint
sacrifice
self-awareness
self-discipline
self-esteem
self-reliance
self-respect
sensitivity
sharing
sincerity
spirituality
sympathy
tactfulness
temperance
thankfulness
tolerance
trustworthiness
truth
truthfulness
understanding
unselfishness
wisdom

---

And all this time I didn't know that I was Virtuous --- "Beautiful In Spirit"....:D

Llywellyn

Wow, this thread is a logomachist's dream! I'm drooling over here. And I haven't even plunged into the Oxford English Dictionary yet today.

Dave, I like the photo for its composition and lighting. Fantastically done--I really admire how you were able to cut the reflection on the plastic bottle so it didn't detract from the child's face while simultaneously grabbing some great catchlights in the eyes.

Theme-wise, I'll admit it doesn't scream "virtue" to me. But the joke version you posted with the bigger bottle certainly made me think "gluttony" (after I dried my eyes from the laughter).

davev

Llywellyn wrote:

Wow, this thread is a logomachist's dream! I'm drooling over here. And I haven't even plunged into the Oxford English Dictionary yet today.

Dave, I like the photo for its composition and lighting. Fantastically done--I really admire how you were able to cut the reflection on the plastic bottle so it didn't detract from the child's face while simultaneously grabbing some great catchlights in the eyes.

Theme-wise, I'll admit it doesn't scream "virtue" to me. But the joke version you posted with the bigger bottle certainly made me think "gluttony" (after I dried my eyes from the laughter).

I just may have to switch to that/this shot.

The title would be something like, "Got More Milk?"

Gary Glass

I disagree. It's one thing to interpret broadly. It is another thing not to interpret.

I think the issue has less to do than how you want to construe "virtue" than with how you want to construe "theme." Yesterday, somebody entered a shot of a white rose (I think it's a rose) and titled it "Pure." Now I think this is totally inappropriate. After all a flower isn't really "pure." A flower doesn't really know anything about virtue. It's never had to choose between sin and righteousness! It's never had to face down an oncoming phalanx of communist tanks! It's never had to look a man in the eye and say "I'll die before I give it up to the likes of you!" Flower's are worse than completely innocent. They're stupid! They don't even have brains for crying out loud! If I were one of the judges I'd throw that one out straightaway!