Yesterday, somebody entered a shot of a white rose (I think it's a rose) and titled it "Pure." Now I think this is totally inappropriate. After all a flower isn't really "pure."!
pu·ri·ty (pyʊr'ĭ-tē) n.
The quality or condition of being pure.
A quantitative assessment of homogeneity or uniformity.
Freedom from sin or guilt;innocence; chastity: “Teach your children . . . the belief in purity of body, mind and soul” (Emmeline Pankhurst).
The absence in speech or writing of slang or other elements deemed inappropriate to good style.
The degree to which a color is free from being mixed with other colors
I agree with you Gary, BUT Since in Western Culture "Virture" has a few meanings.......I think whomever posted the "Rose" was going for the purity of the color (#5 in the list).
For example: Gold...14 karat, 18 karat, 12 karat, sometimes we refer to somethings as Pure White, Pure Black, etc.
They were going for Quality Normative of Pure rather than the Moral issue of Pure in the Virture Sense...
You're only as good as your next photo....
One day, I started writing, not knowing that I had chained myself for life to a noble but merciless master. When God hands you a gift, he also hands you a whip; and the whip is intended solely for self-flagellation...I'm here alone in my dark madness, all by myself with my deck of cards --- and, of course, the whip God gave me." Truman Capote
I'll stick my noob nose in here and just say that an entry such as a flower would be intended to imply the theme through symbolism as opposed to depicting the theme through a graphic example. It would seem to be one step removed (or maybe a half step) from the theme and I'd imagine some judges would factor that into their evaluation unless the image was very moving.
Edit: I think I need to alter my statement. Do the rules say that one must depict the theme? If one can invoke the theme through symbolism then I think you're on-theme. It's just a matter of how successfully the image evokes. In fact, one could say that it's more difficult to successfully imply something and if an image is strong enough to do so then it could possibly be considered a winning image.
I think the issue has less to do than how you want to construe "virtue" than with how you want to construe "theme."
You are correct. I have had issues in the past with the way judges use, or don't use, the concept of the "theme." If the contest is themeless, then let's throw out the theme and just have an open entry format. If we are going to have a theme, then I really don't understand how people can go about conflating the theme to the point of meaninglessness.
What we have is a rather capricious application of theme as a criteria. This doesn't do much to make the whole process transparent. Should I go out and bust my ass to take on on theme photo? Or should I just submit the same shot again and again regardless of theme?
Is the theme applied as a universal criteria? Or is it applied for some shots, and not for others? If so what are the actual criteria for this contest?
Before I put myslef out to enter a "game' (and this is a game of sorts), I would like to know that there are rules, what those rules are, and that the rules apply to everybody.
Yesterday, somebody entered a shot of a white rose (I think it's a rose) and titled it "Pure." Now I think this is totally inappropriate. After all a flower isn't really "pure." A flower doesn't really know anything about virtue. It's never had to choose between sin and righteousness! It's never had to face down an oncoming phalanx of communist tanks! It's never had to look a man in the eye and say "I'll die before I give it up to the likes of you!" Flower's are worse than completely innocent. They're stupid! They don't even have brains for crying out loud! If I were one of the judges I'd throw that one out straightaway!
Other than the part that is hyperbole, that is my point exactly. I am assuming that your post is sarcastic. Is that correct?
Well, this thread has evolved into quite an interesting discussion - interpretation of the theme. I know from the limited time I've been reading this forum, this isn't the first time. If people are having this discussion just for the sake of intellectual stimulation, that by all means carry on. But that's all there is to be gained in my opinion, rather than a universal understanding of how the theme will be applied to the entries. I don't think there are any constants in this competition due to the fact the judges are always different, so I disagree with this statement:
A great photo trumps any and all adherence to theme!
In the explosive/sedate thread, I recall most common phrase in TheBigSky's critiques as a judge was "does not fit the theme" and many people were upset that so many photo's were eliminated on that basis. So with these ever changing conditions, it's just like Forrest Gump said, "You never know what you're gonna git."
I guess it all depends on how the judges view the theme....
Do they see just Black and White...or do they also look for the Gray areas. Also, the judges are not the same EVERY round, and I keep in the back of my mind at all times, the judges are NOT pro judges, alot of times they are just your photograhic peers.
Have Fun, Enjoy Yourself, but at the same time...Put your best foot forward and use your own mind to interpret how you visualize the theme in your minds eye. Not only are you improving on what skills you may have, it gives you focus on something to shoot and aim for, but remember there are lots of people viewing these threads, so to alot of extent YOU are advertising YOUR work...Which counts for alot.
HAVE FUN People and SEE OUT OF THE BOX...I think it has been fun seeing how people are interpreting the Sin/Virture theme thus far...
Is this a GAME..Yea, I guess you could say that Justiciero...every contest is a "Game of Chance"...but then again Life is a Chance...
You're only as good as your next photo....
One day, I started writing, not knowing that I had chained myself for life to a noble but merciless master. When God hands you a gift, he also hands you a whip; and the whip is intended solely for self-flagellation...I'm here alone in my dark madness, all by myself with my deck of cards --- and, of course, the whip God gave me." Truman Capote
Responding to pat664422, and my statement that a great photo trumps any and all adherence to theme, I'm not quite sure what you are disagreeing with. Is it me? My lack of intellectuallity? My opinion? The practical truth of the statement? I only made that statement to close out my post in my typical [EMAIL="smarta@$$"]smarta$$[/EMAIL] manner that everyone around here knows and expects of me. It's just a statement of my opinion that is my infallibly objective conclusion based on looking at pretty much every LPS from the beginning in an extremely over-analytical way...
I find that the folks who are sticking around, getting the most out of this contest, are the ones who realize that this is Shay's contest, that he has tried to keep it light and fairly open, knowing that the intent is to be in a learning process, not just a game. I don't claim to claim to realize this 100% of the time. I put a lot of effort into LPS11, and had reason to think I might just get in under the wire, but alas.... For about 15 minutes I was on the verge of breaking things. But in the end I learned skills that I didn't have just a week earlier, and so I'm better for it.
As for theme, what I really think is that the LPS judges do apply the theme a lot more than we give them credit. The problem is that there are so many different people to be judges that we can never know how that will play out. So, in that case, take a better photograph (or create a better image via PS) that will be so good as to break though all of that, and tell me if you still don't agree!
(insert here your own imaginary smarta$$ post closing, as I'm fresh out for the moment.)
Responding to pat664422, and my statement that a great photo trumps any and all adherence to theme, I'm not quite sure what you are disagreeing with.
Lol, I'm sorry for not elaborating further. I was definitely not trying to imply anything about anyone's intellectuality. I was just trying to say that from what I have observed in my short time following this forum is that there are no constants or consistency in the judging because the judges are different for each round. And I think that is good for keeping the contest fresh.
So, in that case, take a better photograph (or create a better image via PS) that will be so good as to break though all of that, and tell me if you still don't agree!
This is probably true most of the time, but I go back to the point that since the contest always has different judges, some that might interpret the theme more strictly or narrowly (however you want to say it) than others, nothing can be taken for granted. At least this has become my approach. If I have no idea what to expect, I seem to have less of an inclination to break things as you said after I see the results
Well Pat, do forgive it I took your comment a bit too much to heart...
If I could have thought of fewer words at the time, it would have been more like, were you disageeing with the actual opinion, or were you disageeeing that such an opinion could even have been deduced at all. But you've answered plenty.
And sorry also Dave for my part in turning your thread into this huge discussion. Your thread is in any event a good display of how hard it is to interpret a theme. You asked for opinions, and in fact there is no agreement on whether your very nice photo meets the theme, yet in the end you've posted it anyway! It had to meet your interpretation of the theme first.
We find this same level of agreement/disagreement in almost all threads asking for opinions. How could we ever put rules on how to interpret an theme?
Well Pat, do forgive it I took your comment a bit too much to heart...
If I could have thought of fewer words at the time, it would have been more like, were you disageeing with the actual opinion, or were you disageeeing that such an opinion could even have been deduced at all. But you've answered plenty.
And sorry also Dave for my part in turning your thread into this huge discussion. Your thread is in any event a good display of how hard it is to interpret a theme. You asked for opinions, and in fact there is no agreement on whether your very nice photo meets the theme, yet in the end you've posted it anyway! It had to meet your interpretation of the theme first.
We find this same level of agreement/disagreement in almost all threads asking for opinions. How could we ever put rules on how to interpret an theme?
No need to apologize. I'm having fun just reading it.
I'm one the folks that believes in grey areas when it comes to the themes and how they should/could be shown.
A few posts back it was said that the flower doesn't belong. Sure it does.
It represents one of the virtues of being pure. Much like a white wedding dress.
During the old challenges, it was good to think outside of the box. I feel some of us
are trying so hard to stay inside the lines, that they're losing the chance to make a really great shot.
Now back to my shot for just a second.
I put this shot up asking for opinions on it worthiness of the theme. Although it seems that more feel that it's not, I have a few that side with me. As long as I can get a couple of people to jump on board, I'm Ok with entering it.
It could be that a couple of the judges think along those lines to.
Now as for it being a great shot. To some, it's another baby/toddler pic. To me, it a huge leap forward in my photography.
About 4 months ago, 3 others and myself went in on studio space. This kid's mother was nice enough to let me use the boy as my first victim.
I feel that besides the regular portrait shots, I was able to walk away with a shot from an angle that you don't see everyday.
So now we're back to that using the challenge to learn something.
Well I did, and I did.
Well Pat, do forgive it I took your comment a bit too much to heart...
If I could have thought of fewer words at the time, it would have been more like, were you disageeing with the actual opinion, or were you disageeeing that such an opinion could even have been deduced at all. But you've answered plenty.
And sorry also Dave for my part in turning your thread into this huge discussion. Your thread is in any event a good display of how hard it is to interpret a theme. You asked for opinions, and in fact there is no agreement on whether your very nice photo meets the theme, yet in the end you've posted it anyway! It had to meet your interpretation of the theme first.
We find this same level of agreement/disagreement in almost all threads asking for opinions. How could we ever put rules on how to interpret an theme?
No need to apologize. I'm having fun just reading it.
I'm one the folks that believes in grey areas when it comes to the themes and how they should/could be shown.
A few posts back it was said that the flower doesn't belong. Sure it does.
It represents one of the virtues of being pure. Much like a white wedding dress.
During the old challenges, it was good to think outside of the box. I feel some of us
are trying so hard to stay inside the lines, that they're losing the chance to make a really great shot.
Now back to my shot for just a second.
I put this shot up asking for opinions on it worthiness of the theme. Although it seems that more feel that it's not, I have a few that side with me. As long as I can get a couple of people to jump on board, I'm Ok with entering it.
It could be that a couple of the judges think along those lines to.
Now as for it being a great shot. To some, it's another baby/toddler pic. To me, it a huge leap forward in my photography.
About 4 months ago, 3 others and myself went in on studio space. This kid's mother was nice enough to let me use the boy as my first victim.
I feel that besides the regular portrait shots, I was able to walk away with a shot from an angle that you don't see everyday.
So now we're back to that using the challenge to learn something.
Well I did, and I did.
Let me briefly respond to several points at random:
My post about the flower being "totally inappropriate" was totally tongue in cheek. I thought it was a beautiful shot, redolent of purity, and in my opinion within the bounds of the theme.
Was it sarcastic? Of course, but all in fun. I thought the "totally inappropriate" comment was a bit over the top and I was poking fun at it. But also trying to make a serious point: there are no photographs of "virtue". There will never be any photographs of "virtue". Virtue doesn't have physical existence. It does not reflect electromagnetic radiation. So *anything* we shoot on that theme can only be suggestive of the concept. The flower suggests it to me. So does the charming toddler shot that Dave offered.
There aren't going to be any hard and fast rules about what is and is not "on theme." It isn't a coloring book. There's no lines to stay inside. We may disagree with a particular judge's opinion about what is and is not on theme, but let's assume the judge is acting in good faith. Even if for some inexplicable reason he or she picks MY shot. Yeah!
Different people participate for different reasons, of course. Some of us are very competitive and whenever we get into a contest of any sort we WANT TO WIN! Others could care less about winning, they're just along for the laughs. Most of us probably fall somewhere in between. As for me, being a latecomer to the party and all, I think I'll get the most out of it by challenging myself to stretch and try stuff I wouldn't have thought about outside of this context. My entry for example was something I would never have dreamed up otherwise, but I was pretty happy with the shot I came up with. Sure I'd have been disappointed if I hadn't qualified, but I would still have been happy with that shot. On the other hand, if I had entered a shot that I didn't feel good about and still managed to qualify, I still wouldn't have liked that shot. Getting good photographs is what it's all about. Not whether the judges, God bless them, validate my work for me, as much of a thrill as that may be.
And that's the spirit in which I took Hoof's remark that a great photo trumps theme. It also trumps contest. For me anyway.
Comments
pu·ri·ty (pyʊr'ĭ-tē) n.
- The quality or condition of being pure.
- A quantitative assessment of homogeneity or uniformity.
- Freedom from sin or guilt; innocence; chastity: “Teach your children . . . the belief in purity of body, mind and soul” (Emmeline Pankhurst).
- The absence in speech or writing of slang or other elements deemed inappropriate to good style.
- The degree to which a color is free from being mixed with other colors
I agree with you Gary, BUT Since in Western Culture "Virture" has a few meanings..For example: Gold...14 karat, 18 karat, 12 karat, sometimes we refer to somethings as Pure White, Pure Black, etc.
They were going for Quality Normative of Pure rather than the Moral issue of Pure in the Virture Sense...
Edit: I think I need to alter my statement. Do the rules say that one must depict the theme? If one can invoke the theme through symbolism then I think you're on-theme. It's just a matter of how successfully the image evokes. In fact, one could say that it's more difficult to successfully imply something and if an image is strong enough to do so then it could possibly be considered a winning image.
You are correct. I have had issues in the past with the way judges use, or don't use, the concept of the "theme." If the contest is themeless, then let's throw out the theme and just have an open entry format. If we are going to have a theme, then I really don't understand how people can go about conflating the theme to the point of meaninglessness.
What we have is a rather capricious application of theme as a criteria. This doesn't do much to make the whole process transparent. Should I go out and bust my ass to take on on theme photo? Or should I just submit the same shot again and again regardless of theme?
Is the theme applied as a universal criteria? Or is it applied for some shots, and not for others? If so what are the actual criteria for this contest?
Before I put myslef out to enter a "game' (and this is a game of sorts), I would like to know that there are rules, what those rules are, and that the rules apply to everybody.
Other than the part that is hyperbole, that is my point exactly. I am assuming that your post is sarcastic. Is that correct?
In the explosive/sedate thread, I recall most common phrase in TheBigSky's critiques as a judge was "does not fit the theme" and many people were upset that so many photo's were eliminated on that basis. So with these ever changing conditions, it's just like Forrest Gump said, "You never know what you're gonna git."
Do they see just Black and White...or do they also look for the Gray areas. Also, the judges are not the same EVERY round, and I keep in the back of my mind at all times, the judges are NOT pro judges, alot of times they are just your photograhic peers.
Have Fun, Enjoy Yourself, but at the same time...Put your best foot forward and use your own mind to interpret how you visualize the theme in your minds eye. Not only are you improving on what skills you may have, it gives you focus on something to shoot and aim for, but remember there are lots of people viewing these threads, so to alot of extent YOU are advertising YOUR work...Which counts for alot.
HAVE FUN People and SEE OUT OF THE BOX...I think it has been fun seeing how people are interpreting the Sin/Virture theme thus far...
Is this a GAME..Yea, I guess you could say that Justiciero...every contest is a "Game of Chance"...but then again Life is a Chance...
I find that the folks who are sticking around, getting the most out of this contest, are the ones who realize that this is Shay's contest, that he has tried to keep it light and fairly open, knowing that the intent is to be in a learning process, not just a game. I don't claim to claim to realize this 100% of the time. I put a lot of effort into LPS11, and had reason to think I might just get in under the wire, but alas.... For about 15 minutes I was on the verge of breaking things. But in the end I learned skills that I didn't have just a week earlier, and so I'm better for it.
As for theme, what I really think is that the LPS judges do apply the theme a lot more than we give them credit. The problem is that there are so many different people to be judges that we can never know how that will play out. So, in that case, take a better photograph (or create a better image via PS) that will be so good as to break though all of that, and tell me if you still don't agree!
(insert here your own imaginary smarta$$ post closing, as I'm fresh out for the moment.)
www.HoofClix.com / Personal Facebook / Facebook Page
and I do believe its true.. that there are roads left in both of our shoes..
Lol, I'm sorry for not elaborating further. I was definitely not trying to imply anything about anyone's intellectuality. I was just trying to say that from what I have observed in my short time following this forum is that there are no constants or consistency in the judging because the judges are different for each round. And I think that is good for keeping the contest fresh.
This is probably true most of the time, but I go back to the point that since the contest always has different judges, some that might interpret the theme more strictly or narrowly (however you want to say it) than others, nothing can be taken for granted. At least this has become my approach. If I have no idea what to expect, I seem to have less of an inclination to break things as you said after I see the results
If I could have thought of fewer words at the time, it would have been more like, were you disageeing with the actual opinion, or were you disageeeing that such an opinion could even have been deduced at all. But you've answered plenty.
And sorry also Dave for my part in turning your thread into this huge discussion. Your thread is in any event a good display of how hard it is to interpret a theme. You asked for opinions, and in fact there is no agreement on whether your very nice photo meets the theme, yet in the end you've posted it anyway! It had to meet your interpretation of the theme first.
We find this same level of agreement/disagreement in almost all threads asking for opinions. How could we ever put rules on how to interpret an theme?
www.HoofClix.com / Personal Facebook / Facebook Page
and I do believe its true.. that there are roads left in both of our shoes..
No need to apologize. I'm having fun just reading it.
I'm one the folks that believes in grey areas when it comes to the themes and how they should/could be shown.
A few posts back it was said that the flower doesn't belong. Sure it does.
It represents one of the virtues of being pure. Much like a white wedding dress.
During the old challenges, it was good to think outside of the box. I feel some of us
are trying so hard to stay inside the lines, that they're losing the chance to make a really great shot.
Now back to my shot for just a second.
I put this shot up asking for opinions on it worthiness of the theme. Although it seems that more feel that it's not, I have a few that side with me. As long as I can get a couple of people to jump on board, I'm Ok with entering it.
It could be that a couple of the judges think along those lines to.
Now as for it being a great shot. To some, it's another baby/toddler pic. To me, it a huge leap forward in my photography.
About 4 months ago, 3 others and myself went in on studio space. This kid's mother was nice enough to let me use the boy as my first victim.
I feel that besides the regular portrait shots, I was able to walk away with a shot from an angle that you don't see everyday.
So now we're back to that using the challenge to learn something.
Well I did, and I did.
Basking in the shadows of yesterday's triumphs'.
No need to apologize. I'm having fun just reading it.
I'm one the folks that believes in grey areas when it comes to the themes and how they should/could be shown.
A few posts back it was said that the flower doesn't belong. Sure it does.
It represents one of the virtues of being pure. Much like a white wedding dress.
During the old challenges, it was good to think outside of the box. I feel some of us
are trying so hard to stay inside the lines, that they're losing the chance to make a really great shot.
Now back to my shot for just a second.
I put this shot up asking for opinions on it worthiness of the theme. Although it seems that more feel that it's not, I have a few that side with me. As long as I can get a couple of people to jump on board, I'm Ok with entering it.
It could be that a couple of the judges think along those lines to.
Now as for it being a great shot. To some, it's another baby/toddler pic. To me, it a huge leap forward in my photography.
About 4 months ago, 3 others and myself went in on studio space. This kid's mother was nice enough to let me use the boy as my first victim.
I feel that besides the regular portrait shots, I was able to walk away with a shot from an angle that you don't see everyday.
So now we're back to that using the challenge to learn something.
Well I did, and I did.
Basking in the shadows of yesterday's triumphs'.
My post about the flower being "totally inappropriate" was totally tongue in cheek. I thought it was a beautiful shot, redolent of purity, and in my opinion within the bounds of the theme.
Was it sarcastic? Of course, but all in fun. I thought the "totally inappropriate" comment was a bit over the top and I was poking fun at it. But also trying to make a serious point: there are no photographs of "virtue". There will never be any photographs of "virtue". Virtue doesn't have physical existence. It does not reflect electromagnetic radiation. So *anything* we shoot on that theme can only be suggestive of the concept. The flower suggests it to me. So does the charming toddler shot that Dave offered.
There aren't going to be any hard and fast rules about what is and is not "on theme." It isn't a coloring book. There's no lines to stay inside. We may disagree with a particular judge's opinion about what is and is not on theme, but let's assume the judge is acting in good faith. Even if for some inexplicable reason he or she picks MY shot. Yeah!
Different people participate for different reasons, of course. Some of us are very competitive and whenever we get into a contest of any sort we WANT TO WIN! Others could care less about winning, they're just along for the laughs. Most of us probably fall somewhere in between. As for me, being a latecomer to the party and all, I think I'll get the most out of it by challenging myself to stretch and try stuff I wouldn't have thought about outside of this context. My entry for example was something I would never have dreamed up otherwise, but I was pretty happy with the shot I came up with. Sure I'd have been disappointed if I hadn't qualified, but I would still have been happy with that shot. On the other hand, if I had entered a shot that I didn't feel good about and still managed to qualify, I still wouldn't have liked that shot. Getting good photographs is what it's all about. Not whether the judges, God bless them, validate my work for me, as much of a thrill as that may be.
And that's the spirit in which I took Hoof's remark that a great photo trumps theme. It also trumps contest. For me anyway.
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OnlyBegotten.com