Photographing on School property
wallkillphoto
Registered Users Posts: 17 Big grins
After six months of shooting and selling action photos of local sports teams, (High School, Middle School, Soccer Clubs, Little Leagues and others) I have been advised by the local school district "to cease and desist from using school facilities for commercial purposes." However Lifetouch who has the contract for all the school posed photographs does the same thing. We won't go into the fact that this decision comes after I ran into the Lifetouch photographer at 2 games last week.
Is school property considered public property?
They also brought up that I am taking the photos and posting them on the web without parent perrmission. They made several references that child molesters and other preditors could take advantage of my site for evil purposes. Most parents sign a media relase form at the begining of the year. I asked for the database so I could cross reference and remove any photos in violation. I was stalled pointing back that it wouldn't make any difference based on their first reason.
At this point I have asked the school to more clearly define their legal position. At the moment they are only siting I am coming on school grounds to take the photos which they consider a use of school facilities. They also say the NY State Commisioner of Education stated a position that Lifetouch is performing a school service. I have a call into his office trying to get a copy of that one.
I don't have funds to mount a legal case, and honestly this is just a side business for me. But many in the community enjoy my work and want me to fight this decision. Anyone else seen a precident I can site. I know each state can be different. I live in NY.
Thanks all
Stuart
wallkillphoto.com
Is school property considered public property?
They also brought up that I am taking the photos and posting them on the web without parent perrmission. They made several references that child molesters and other preditors could take advantage of my site for evil purposes. Most parents sign a media relase form at the begining of the year. I asked for the database so I could cross reference and remove any photos in violation. I was stalled pointing back that it wouldn't make any difference based on their first reason.
At this point I have asked the school to more clearly define their legal position. At the moment they are only siting I am coming on school grounds to take the photos which they consider a use of school facilities. They also say the NY State Commisioner of Education stated a position that Lifetouch is performing a school service. I have a call into his office trying to get a copy of that one.
I don't have funds to mount a legal case, and honestly this is just a side business for me. But many in the community enjoy my work and want me to fight this decision. Anyone else seen a precident I can site. I know each state can be different. I live in NY.
Thanks all
Stuart
wallkillphoto.com
Stuart
wallkillphoto.com
wallkillphoto.com
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Comments
do yourself a favor and don't fool with this one. you'll have both the school and lifetouch mounting legal challenges and they will most likely win their cases against you.
Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
Yeah, messing around on School property isnt a good idea, esp. if you got a letter telling you to stop... the next thing you know is youll be getting your gear taken away and mistreated and youll look like the weirdow
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Canon 30D, some lenses and stuff... I think im tired or something, i have a hard time concentrating.. hey look, a birdie!:clap
wallkillphoto.com
www.theanimalhaven.com :thumb
Visit us at: www.northeastfoto.com a forum for northeastern USA Photogs to meet. :wink
Canon 30D, some lenses and stuff... I think im tired or something, i have a hard time concentrating.. hey look, a birdie!:clap
I'd take a step back and go through the proper channels if you want to take photos commercially.
Sorry you're caught in the middle of this stuff...
"Your decisions on whether to buy, when to buy and what to buy should depend on careful consideration of your needs primarily, with a little of your wants thrown in for enjoyment, After all photography is a hobby, even for pros."
~Herbert Keppler
I am always amazed at the number of people in these forums that go for the "Marvin Milk-toast" approach to business. Cave in, go away, play nice, the other photographer has a contract, etc. Nutt up now or be a doormat forever.
I had some issues with the local school district here in Oregon. I chewed them up (administration) up and spit them out. They sent me the big "scare" letter, and I responded with a deluge of public information requests. You can word your request in a way that from a legal standpoint, can be frightening to the district and all of the little bureaucrats the constitute its body. We had about a dozen letters back and forth between us before they decided to step back.
Lifetouch represented even less of a problem. We had a little discussion about how the PTO would not be to happy to learn that the district was choosing the school photographer based solely on the basis of a kick-back, not competitive pricing for the parents. The policy of only allowing Lifetouch photos in the year book (for underclassmen) quietly went away.
This is a sideline business for me as well. I just really don't take kindly to anybody trying to push me around. When I get pushed, I push back, and much harder. You don't have to stand tall, but you have got to STAND UP!
The best place to start is by getting a copy of the contract awarded. I have seen several now and most DO NOT guarantee the contracted company "exclusive" rights to extra curricular activities. I also requested all documentation regarding how the contract was awarded as well as the district's written criteria for making the award. The praticular district in question could not seem to provide (I know from an inside source that they never articulated any specific criteria).
wallkillphoto.com
Another idea might be to do an end run around the entire thing. Get contracts from the parents that they have retained you to take photos of their kids. I would bet a parent has the right to bring his or her own photographer to an event.
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Just curious, what was the purpose of your public information requests?
Yes, schools are public property and funded by taxpayers but that certainly doesn't mean you can just walk into a school and start shooting photos any old time you want. Imagine what kind of safety problems there would be if that was the case.
Portland, Oregon Photographer Pete Springer
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To me, it's irrelevant.
I would never show up at a school and start shooting without first clearing it with them. It's just good business practice. And remember, you are conducting business.
If the OP had done that, he wouldn't be in his current situation; fighting the system.
Again, wether you have to or not, I just feel it's good business practice.
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This action stemmed from a complaint call to the Superintendent's office.
To the other question, all school sports events are public events. The football and basketball games are the only events that they charge addmission
wallkillphoto.com
Government property??
Belonging to the city??
Sorry, but this whole concept bothers me. Government ownership = public ownership, the notion that government can manage the ownership of lands, streets, public buildings, utilities, and other business enterprises. The theory that all land and its resources belong ultimately to the people . The government isn't an entity that should be able to own anything, but manage our resources that we give it permision to do so for a common good. We tell the government what it can do, not the other way around.
But in today's world it is the other way around. Most people look at the government as the omnipotent authority that allows us to have rights. When in actuality it should be us allowing our elected representatives to have only the limited rights that are necessary to act as our agents.
:soapbox
When I see all the new rules and laws. . . Tonight I heard a radio commercial targeting private boaters - making sure they knew about new laws preventing them from anchoring their boats near bridges and structures.
I just get concerned that in our world of "evil-doers", we're handing all of our freedoms and rights over to a government (local, state, and federal) in the name of protection and safety. Because big-brother will surely take care of us . . . !
But sticking to this thread's school issue, I realize that some protection imight be necessary. And commercial contracts may be in place that prevent business competition. So your photo work may still be pushing correctly established boundaries.
Link to The Photographer's Rights
And another good link that specifically mentions school football games - here's the link
And one more related link.
Okay, I feel better now
I knew, of course, that trees and plants had roots, stems, bark, branches and foliage that reached up toward the light. But I was coming to realize that the real magician was light itself.
Edward Steichen
Quite the opposite, access is tightly controlled.
They're entirely within their rights.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
I disagree that the school is within their rights to limit photography at a sporting event that is open to the public. Controling access to the school in general has become more of a security concern, but a sporting event is a public event.
However, we're not talking about just treading on the ground, or even shooting photographs of minors, but with the intention of selling them commercially? Seems like a lot of liberties to take the whole "public property" concept.
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I am no way talking about that it is ok since it is on public property, someone else may have made that claim. I am going more by a supreme court ruling dealing with capturing images at public events. And this individual isn't really targeting a large population to purchase the images, he would only be realistically selling to friends, family, or those in the images captured at the events. Not sure about that aspect and I am not arguing that point. But just as a newspaper would have a right to come to the event to document it, also does an individual, the freedom of the press never specified a individual or a institution. I found a good link as far as information goes. It is long but has some interesting points like the FOIA (Freedom of Information Act), etc.
http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/rightsof/press.htm
The purpose was to two fold. First to get information, and the second was to posture
- I asked for a written copy of the policy regarding photography and yearbook photos
Got a pretty weak response citing a contract.- I asked to examine a copy of the contract
- I asked for a copy of the policy used during the selection of contract photographer
Got another anemic response (the really had not laid out a formal set of criteria)- So I asked for the names and titles of the administrators who approved the contract
- I also asked for copies of the notes, minutes, and any other related collateral materials from the work session
- Asked that the district also disclose any pertinent relationships between the contract company and members of the work group that oversaw the awarding of the contract
- Asked where in the budget I could find the related district income from the relationship
They blinked. Pretty much did not want to provide the information. Instead the rescinded their cease and desist letter. They welcomed me to a part of the academic experience for the students.http://rrdphoto.com/files/Photography-and-the-Right-to-Privacy.pdf
I happen to work for a weekly newspaper where I live and the fact of the matter is, if I roll into a high school sporting event I can guarantee that a photo of a kid is going up on my newspaper's web site. And they can't do anything about it because they are holding a sporting event and they are charging the public admission. Or they are at least inviting the public to the event even if they aren't charging admission.
Also, every athlete on all of those sports teams, since they play their sports in public, are public figures. By participating in a sport that they know each game is open to the public, they're privacy rights are out the window as far as taking their photos.
As far as I can tell, your problem is that the schools have a contract with Lifetouch to do their commercial photography. If that is the case they can restrict access to the prime shooting areas for media and their photographers which happens to be Lifetouch. This also means that they should issue credentials for the season or something like that.
However, that doesn't restrict you from sitting in the first row with your camera and getting all of the shots you want. And for basketball games I cover I sometimes sit in the front row and shoot for a different angle.
Don't worry about privacy issues and child predators because they have Myspace now and privacy issues about athletes from the schools doesn't hold water. There are 25 cameras in the stands for every game I go to and the only difference between them and me is that I get to move around the sideline area. If privacy is the problem then they would ban all cameras from the event.
I don't know what the media situation is around where you are, but you could also go to the local newspaper with some samples and tell them you'll shoot the games for free as long as you could retain the rights to the photos for sales. At that point you become the media and you have the newspaper's clout behind you. The old saying of "never anger anyone that buys paper by the ton and ink by the barrel" comes into play.
There is no way the school system would attempt to put restrictions on the media and what they can do with their photos. For you, they can probably restrict your access, but if you buy a ticket and sit in the stands you can shoot all you want.
You also might consider appealing to the individual sports booster clubs. If Lifetouch doesn't give the coverage you do as far as going to all the events, they could lobby for you to be given access to shoot because they want your photos.
The one thing I wouldn't do is get angry with them. Asking for them to clarify their stance is fine, but if you stay on their good side you could lobby for a change next year where you do the sporting events and Lifetouch does the rest. Especially if you can get the boosters behind you and your work is better than theirs.
Hope that helps,
BRATCH
Stuart
wallkillphoto.com
wallkillphoto.com
The contract photographer informed the school that they had no problem with my work; as long as I stayed away from posed individual and team photographs.
Very peaceful coexistance abounds.
Kent
"Not everybody trusts paintings, but people believe photographs."- Ansel Adams
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Tim makes a good point. Most photographers want the cash for the posed and team shots because their money is guaranteed. Whereas we sports photographers rely on a lot of luck and it's likely that we may not get a good action photo of every player on every team.
And the parents of the best players, of which we have what seems like gigabytes of photos, will only purchase so many photos.
The only reason I put my photos online is because there is really no way for people to see my photos and if they wanted to buy them it was a pain in the butt to make trips to have them printed. And most of the time I don't want to waste an hour of my time for a single 4x6 print that I'm selling for a couple of bucks.
Once you take the action shots of the players, how do you inform their parents that they can purchase the prints and where they can purchase them from?
I've seen dozens of Lifetouch contracts. Some retain exclusive rights, some don't. It is up to the area sales reps and their legal dept on how their contracts are worded. So this changes drasticly from territory to territory.
Lifetouch has a major advantage in cetain arenas in regards to pricing. Do you know why Lifetouch is so big? They were able to underbid on most contracts due to econiomies of scale (it's cheaper to buy 100,000 prints per unit than to buy 50). So even WITH kickbacks, reshoots, all the other hidden costs that are associated with them that would financially drown you as a photographer. Lifetouch can usually still charge less than the average shooter and maintain a profitable business model. People that shoot on the side sometimes loose site of this since they don't have to charge to cover their overhead. They can just charge as low as they want to get the job. Which isn't part of the photography business. It's part of an expensive hobby. Nothing wrong at all with that. I just want you to keep a level headed view of what your getting into.
If your just in there to have fun. Underbid the crap out of them and get the contract (if you want the contract). If your trying to do this as a means of sole financial income and they push, PLEASE make sure you know what their contract says before you go pushing back. LT has monsterous financial backing. Push comes to shove and you end up in court with your legal begal then they have a fleet of lawyers come in thirsty for blood...
I'm no legal person. I do like to exercise common sense though...
Hopes this helps a bit.
-Jon
Allot of ppl just have bizcards they hand out.
Some ppl also create an empty gallery before the event then write the gallery name on the back of the bizcard. THis allows the parent (or whoever) to easily navigate to your gallery when their back at home.
I have cards but I also have a brochure that I hand out during halftime or between innings or whatever. I make it a joke walking among the parents saying it's the halftime comercial. The brochure has some examplse of my work and explains I contribute money back to the organization. I use a matte tri fold brochure paper from Office Max or Staples. Something that is not too expensive but still shows the photos with good quality.
If they are really interested this usually gives the parents a chance to point out there child. If they do that I know I have a sale so I make sure I get some good shots of their child. Even if they are a bench warmer I try and get a good candid close up head shot of them watching the game. They always sell.
wallkillphoto.com
For those who have been following, here is the latest update.
Originally the School Administration was preventing me on the grounds I was using school property for comercial purposes. I had always saw wallkillphoto.com more as a fund raising vehicle anyway more than one for personal profit. So I have managed to get documented "in school" support for my efforts.
Now they are trying to prevent me because I use the internet as a sales method rather than old style "print and Pray" they buy them. Even though I have offered to circulate and compile release forms from all students. Even though I have offered to password protect my entire site. Their other offer was for me to abandon my site. Set up a PC at events to show my work and take orders. Actually they want the in school rep to take the orders and pass them on to me.
Another argument of theirs, currently all fund raisers the money comes into the school through the "in school" group. They circulate flyers or candy or whatever and then collect money and pass it on to the manufacturer. I tried to open their eyes that this may be the way things are now but in the not too distant future we will probably place these orders on line and just have to put in our school code to make sure we get credit. And we won't be dealing with the ordering, processing, bad checks, and all the other stuff we do now.
Bottom line, I'm in a &!$$ing contest with an administrator that didn't like my idea and is now doing whatever he can to stop me. There is no win/win with this guy. Either he wins or I do. Fortunately I have been able to move past him and it is not his decision. Ultimately it will be the Board of Education that will decide and they have been much more receptive to my proposal.
I have met with the Board's Policy committee and they requested the names of other Schools and Sites in NY state that do what I do. A very quick search of just SmugMug yeilded several sites including one school that uses SmugMug themselves.
I also requested on my site and sent out an email to my customer base to please send a message to the Board of Ed expressing their opinion either pro or con. To date I have been copied on about 20 very possitive emails to the Board and no negative ones.
So at the moment I am in a bit of limbo as the Administrator tries to drag his feet and slow the approval process. I think ultimately I will win, I just hope I don't lose the winter sport season while they make a decision.
Thanks again to everyone for their advice. It was very useful and appreciated.
wallkillphoto.com