They also brought up that I am taking the photos and posting them on the web without parent perrmission. They made several references that child molesters and other preditors could take advantage of my site for evil purposes. Most parents sign a media relase form at the begining of the year. I asked for the database so I could cross reference and remove any photos in violation. I was stalled pointing back that it wouldn't make any difference based on their first reason.
For example, if you shoot individual kids playing in a school football game, you can't try to sell those shots to the parents; the kids have a right to the use of their likeness. You can sell photos of the game in general, though, and any shots where what's happening ("A player celebrates a goal") is more important than who's doing it ("Star running back John Doe takes a momentary rest").
Sound like a gray area? It is if you're planning to sell the pictures, but not if you're simply displaying them. And if you're using them for news purposes, all bets are off — you can pretty much publish whatever you want if it happens in public view.
I quit doing school events. It was simply not worth my time compared to other events.
Tis sometimes better to be a big fish in a small pond than to be shark bait.
I did notify the school prior to shooting last spring. Just the wrong person I guess. I had obtained clearance from the Athletic Director. As a matter of fact I did a barter thing with them season. I took the team photo for the football team program and they gave me sideline access at football games. He also knew I was going to be attending all the sporting events. It just appears he didn't really have any authority to grant or deny me access.
This action stemmed from a complaint call to the Superintendent's office.
To the other question, all school sports events are public events. The football and basketball games are the only events that they charge addmission
The Athletic Director can make the decision if you are a claiming to be a member of the press. So if you are selling your pics to papers and magazines, then okay. But that is not what you appear to be doing. Now I think you have to deal with league directors, etc.
But I would keep fighting it.
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what baout parents who ask the likeness not to appear on print or the web.
I was aksed to do a high school soccer game but the athletic director realized at the end that the parents sign a release about likeness etc not appearing on the web or in the paper.
I do password protect the galleries and give the cards to parents and coach only but wondering if this is something worth fighting since I have parents who want the photos but can't follow my normal workflow that I do for the other soccer games I shoot.
I know I have the rights to be there and shoot but it is the making it available to the parents that seems to be the issue.
I was aksed to do a high school soccer game but the athletic director realized at the end that the parents sign a release about likeness etc not appearing on the web or in the paper.
Our school also circulates a release form to all students at the begining of the year. While the school will not tell me, I have heard from a reliable source that it is only a handful that won't let their photos be used.
And since the school has started busting my chops they now circulate a second separate release form to all athletes that allows their photos to be shown just about anywhere except my web site. It mentions periodicals, television, cable television, radio, newspapers, school district website, and school distric publications.
I need to inform them of recent ruling of bloggers getting press credentials.
Waivers for High School Photography
I have recently started shooting high school photography. Do I need to get a release from everyone that I shoot that may end up on my website? I know a lot of the schools in the area offer some sort of photo release at the beginning of the year but I'm not sure of the specifics. Would it be worthwhile to find out what this says or should I some how write up a release of my own and have it available at the games?
Originally the School Administration was preventing me on the grounds I was using school property for comercial purposes. I had always saw wallkillphoto.com more as a fund raising vehicle anyway more than one for personal profit. So I have managed to get documented "in school" support for my efforts.quote]
Geez.......listen to yourself. Originally you were using school grounds for comercial purposes. When it became an issue you change from offering 10% that apparently no one wanted to "now it's more of a fund raising vehicle."
Now your position appears to be"You will let me raise funds for you whether you like it or not."
Looks like the more they try to tell you they don't want you there the more you try to force your way in. Are you losing sight of your objective?
Suppose you do get in? You get to work your butt off to give the school a little chump change that they didn't ask for and clearly don't want?
Someone said a few post back that after a lenghty run around that they were welcomed into the fold (I'm paraphrasing), believe me, welcomed is not the right word. Our company has what we call "shut up and go away money". Sometimes it is easier and cheaper to give in on minor issues than it is to keep dealing with some hard head that just will not let go.
If that is someone's idea of a victory, more power to them. Seems pretty shallow to me.
The more you stir this the more it will stink. The more it stinks the harder you make it for professional photographers to make a living.
Sorry to let you have it with both barrells but I think you need to step back and examine your motives. Is it because you don't like to be told no? Or is there a large sum of money to be made? Is there a sound business justification that you have not mentioned?
What ever it is I hope it is worth it. The schools have a very important job to do and dealing with this deal has to be distracting them from it.
When it became an issue was when I ran into the national company's photographer at a couple of games and they became aware of me as competition. Then surprisingly all this started. There are only one or two school administrators who are trying to stop me not the school district as a whole. They claim there were complaints but have yet to produce any evidence to this. And when asked for any documentation they acted like children. I have a stack of emails praising my efforts and I'm happy to share them with anyone who wants to read them. The parents and students love what I do. And no, there is no great financial gain for me or the school but what's the harm. The kids love to see their photo's. The parents occassionaly like to buy them and a few dollars go back to the organizations. Which some use to help pay for some of the less fortunate families kids who can't afford the soccer league dues or uniform items and things.
You bring up a good point. They must be busy with real issues. If this is how this administration acts over a trivial win/win situation like this then how will they act over somethng with substance.
Middle ground
Thankfully, I didn't have that problem with our local school. I went to our local paper and told the sports guy that I had a camera and lens that I wanted to try out at a couple of the games. He gave me a pass so I could get into the games with the request that I submit a shot or two to the paper. I shot for a couple of games and had all these photos that weren't doing anyone any good just sitting on my PC. So, I called the principal and asked if I could put them out on my flickr account for the kids, parents, etc. to look at. I then went to the Quarterback Club (football boosters) and talked to them about selling the photos. They thought it would be a great idea for me to make some money for my time and expenses of going to the games since I had no kids playing. So, we are actually splitting the profit (after printing costs) 50-50. That way, I feel I am contributing to the kids and they are getting some benefit as well as myself. The parents go to my flickr account, then call or e-mail me with the pictures they want. I print them and take them to the next week's game and they buy them at the QB Club's booth where they sell buttons, t-shirts, etc. along with my photos. Doing that led to the basketball boosters asking if I would be interested in doing the team photos and attending some of the games to get shots to sell. I am also going to donate all of the photos to the yearbook staff so they can use them. Another angle of giving something to the kids. Doing that has made me rather popular with the kids, faculty and parents. And everyone is happy . . .
To note: the "school photographer" showed up at half-time of the homecoming game to take pictures of the homecoming court and was never seen again. That was the next to last game of the year.
a very interesting debate. I can understand both sides of the issue.
First, if there is indeed a contract in place that grants a specific party the sole rights to photograph the team from the playing area then that contract should be honored. If that is the case, then the course of action is to get in on the bidding process.
But, I can say I face a similar issue. I have been working freelance for several years for a local paper as well as selling to the parents. Both the paper and school are aware of this duality and are OK with it. The problem I run into is when there are specific contracts to be awarded - those contracts go to a relative of the former AD (this AD took another position this past year in the same school system but the relative's outfit still continues to get the few contracts the school awards). I can't even get the school administration to even entertain a bid from me. They don't even want to look at my material (and don't have any type of open bidding - so not a matter of just me they don't consider any other outfits). So, I can completely understand frustration at being closed out of opportunities because of back room deals. Note: only few events have an actual photogrpher contracted - most games do not and the school allows any outfit to shoot/sell since there has never been a problem and at most only 3 outfits trying.
So, my take is this - continue to pursue, but do it in the right channels. Find out what the contract grants the other company and what it doesn't. Then work within the system to either gain the contract after it's present term OR to get authority for your own work.
Just a thought here, but as a practical business matter being a real pain in the side of a school district does not bode well for your future opportunities of engaging in business with them.
I'm not saying that this is right or wrong, but it is the way things usually go. I know that I usually avoid dealing with businesses that have been a real pain for me in the past. I've seen your website, and there are some great images there; it would be a shame for you to be branded as "confrontational" or "difficult" and to get a bad reputation with the client you are pursuing. You are essentially trying to force them to do business with you - which is a tough sell in any industry. Districts do talk to each other you know, make sure that when your name comes up it's because of the quality of your work and not because of the headaches you're causing them. Who do you expect is going to want that?
I have recently started shooting high school photography. Do I need to get a release from everyone that I shoot that may end up on my website? I know a lot of the schools in the area offer some sort of photo release at the beginning of the year but I'm not sure of the specifics. Would it be worthwhile to find out what this says or should I some how write up a release of my own and have it available at the games?
Thanks
If it's a sporting event, the kids should have a signed release forms already because they are public figures so to speak and their pictures will be published in the paper. It's not feasable for a paper to check to see if it's OK to print the child in a paper if it's sports related. I put the pictures i take freelancing on my website and don't think twice. I do say if there is a picture that a parent/student don't want posted, let me know. It's a public event as well.
Plus, you would be spending so much time trying to get forms signed, you would not have time to shoot!
If it's a school event, classroom picture, that's different. I shoot school events/stories as well and some parents do not want their child in the paper. I get with the teacher, administration to point out the kids who can't be in the paper and keep them either seperated from other kids or just make sure they are not in the background. The same would apply to posting on your website.
Recently I wrote a letter to the school board and asked permission to shoot from their sidelines and sell my photos on my site. I detailed the security measures on my site and what my intentions are.
After talking to the solicitor, aka. lawyer, I recieved a letter saying they "...can't endorse, or seem to edorse my project." They asked that I "..carefully follow the law and respect the students privacy."
So, what ever that means, who knows. It seems though that they couldn't find any reason to simply say no, but can't say yes as well. Is that what everyone else takes from that??
I think you have your answer, they don't want you to go on with it...
same sort of thing happens in figure skating, I have skating parents that want to compensate me for photos they liked of their skaters, but I can't take a dime (not even for simple printing costs!) and so I give them the photos and just ask for an autograph in return
"It's only an island if you look at it from the water."
Go around
For those that have followed this saga my solution was to give up on donatations and try a different approach.
My solution in the end was to start a second web site where I report on local sporting news. Now as a member of the media I can attend, photograph, and report on sporting events. And if I choose to sell my photos after publication (just as several local newspapers do) then it is my right to do so.
For those who have been following, here is the latest update.
Originally the School Administration was preventing me on the grounds I was using school property for comercial purposes. I had always saw wallkillphoto.com more as a fund raising vehicle anyway more than one for personal profit. So I have managed to get documented "in school" support for my efforts.
Now they are trying to prevent me because I use the internet as a sales method rather than old style "print and Pray" they buy them. Even though I have offered to circulate and compile release forms from all students. Even though I have offered to password protect my entire site. Their other offer was for me to abandon my site. Set up a PC at events to show my work and take orders. Actually they want the in school rep to take the orders and pass them on to me.
Another argument of theirs, currently all fund raisers the money comes into the school through the "in school" group. They circulate flyers or candy or whatever and then collect money and pass it on to the manufacturer. I tried to open their eyes that this may be the way things are now but in the not too distant future we will probably place these orders on line and just have to put in our school code to make sure we get credit. And we won't be dealing with the ordering, processing, bad checks, and all the other stuff we do now.
Bottom line, I'm in a &!$$ing contest with an administrator that didn't like my idea and is now doing whatever he can to stop me. There is no win/win with this guy. Either he wins or I do. Fortunately I have been able to move past him and it is not his decision. Ultimately it will be the Board of Education that will decide and they have been much more receptive to my proposal.
I have met with the Board's Policy committee and they requested the names of other Schools and Sites in NY state that do what I do. A very quick search of just SmugMug yeilded several sites including one school that uses SmugMug themselves.
I also requested on my site and sent out an email to my customer base to please send a message to the Board of Ed expressing their opinion either pro or con. To date I have been copied on about 20 very possitive emails to the Board and no negative ones.
So at the moment I am in a bit of limbo as the Administrator tries to drag his feet and slow the approval process. I think ultimately I will win, I just hope I don't lose the winter sport season while they make a decision.
Thanks again to everyone for their advice. It was very useful and appreciated.
I shoot mostly sports, so this topic is of great interest to me, I dont want to come off badly or mean but I have to tell you, your not doing yourself or fellow sport photographers any good by going to war with these people and pissing them off.
If the other company has Exclusive rights, then dont even try to sell your pics. A lot of us here buy these rights and when someone come along and either gives pics away or trys to sell pictures then what you are doing is undercutting a fellow photographer.
If they dont have the exclusive rights , then try try working with the company that has the "in" and isnt doing action, that way the school will let you be there and everyones happy. But to butt heads with them or take the I win or they win attitude isnt good business. This isnt Google vs Microsoft here.
I sponsor Little league orginazations & teams and they give me the exclusive rights, I shoot High School and they kindly let me on there fields, If they dont want me there, I will shoot elsewhere, no harm no foul. Is it really in your best interest to be where the school doesnt want you? You can stand on a hilltop shouting out your Pro emails and the your First ammendnent rights. but reality says its pay to play, its who you know, and its who you schmooze.
Being in the right doesnt always mean you will win,and even if you do, these people have an end around everything.
Like I said, no offense, But i am one of those guys who has exclusive rights contracts and I wouldnt take kindly to you shooting one of my games.
All the best
Chris www.longislandimage.com
Comments
A quote from this article linked to in a previous post is worth considering.
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/andrewkantor/2006-08-11-photography-rights_x.htm
I quit doing school events. It was simply not worth my time compared to other events.
http://jburtphotos.com
http://jburtphotos.smugmug.com
Basic but makin' changes
The Athletic Director can make the decision if you are a claiming to be a member of the press. So if you are selling your pics to papers and magazines, then okay. But that is not what you appear to be doing. Now I think you have to deal with league directors, etc.
But I would keep fighting it.
dak.smugmug.com
I was aksed to do a high school soccer game but the athletic director realized at the end that the parents sign a release about likeness etc not appearing on the web or in the paper.
I do password protect the galleries and give the cards to parents and coach only but wondering if this is something worth fighting since I have parents who want the photos but can't follow my normal workflow that I do for the other soccer games I shoot.
I know I have the rights to be there and shoot but it is the making it available to the parents that seems to be the issue.
Brian
http://photos.katzclix.com
blog - http://blog.katzclix.com
Our school also circulates a release form to all students at the begining of the year. While the school will not tell me, I have heard from a reliable source that it is only a handful that won't let their photos be used.
And since the school has started busting my chops they now circulate a second separate release form to all athletes that allows their photos to be shown just about anywhere except my web site. It mentions periodicals, television, cable television, radio, newspapers, school district website, and school distric publications.
I need to inform them of recent ruling of bloggers getting press credentials.
wallkillphoto.com
I have recently started shooting high school photography. Do I need to get a release from everyone that I shoot that may end up on my website? I know a lot of the schools in the area offer some sort of photo release at the beginning of the year but I'm not sure of the specifics. Would it be worthwhile to find out what this says or should I some how write up a release of my own and have it available at the games?
Thanks
Photography by: Denise Rowe
www.dylansdigitals.smugmug.com
You bring up a good point. They must be busy with real issues. If this is how this administration acts over a trivial win/win situation like this then how will they act over somethng with substance.
wallkillphoto.com
Thankfully, I didn't have that problem with our local school. I went to our local paper and told the sports guy that I had a camera and lens that I wanted to try out at a couple of the games. He gave me a pass so I could get into the games with the request that I submit a shot or two to the paper. I shot for a couple of games and had all these photos that weren't doing anyone any good just sitting on my PC. So, I called the principal and asked if I could put them out on my flickr account for the kids, parents, etc. to look at. I then went to the Quarterback Club (football boosters) and talked to them about selling the photos. They thought it would be a great idea for me to make some money for my time and expenses of going to the games since I had no kids playing. So, we are actually splitting the profit (after printing costs) 50-50. That way, I feel I am contributing to the kids and they are getting some benefit as well as myself. The parents go to my flickr account, then call or e-mail me with the pictures they want. I print them and take them to the next week's game and they buy them at the QB Club's booth where they sell buttons, t-shirts, etc. along with my photos. Doing that led to the basketball boosters asking if I would be interested in doing the team photos and attending some of the games to get shots to sell. I am also going to donate all of the photos to the yearbook staff so they can use them. Another angle of giving something to the kids. Doing that has made me rather popular with the kids, faculty and parents. And everyone is happy . . .
To note: the "school photographer" showed up at half-time of the homecoming game to take pictures of the homecoming court and was never seen again. That was the next to last game of the year.
First, if there is indeed a contract in place that grants a specific party the sole rights to photograph the team from the playing area then that contract should be honored. If that is the case, then the course of action is to get in on the bidding process.
But, I can say I face a similar issue. I have been working freelance for several years for a local paper as well as selling to the parents. Both the paper and school are aware of this duality and are OK with it. The problem I run into is when there are specific contracts to be awarded - those contracts go to a relative of the former AD (this AD took another position this past year in the same school system but the relative's outfit still continues to get the few contracts the school awards). I can't even get the school administration to even entertain a bid from me. They don't even want to look at my material (and don't have any type of open bidding - so not a matter of just me they don't consider any other outfits). So, I can completely understand frustration at being closed out of opportunities because of back room deals. Note: only few events have an actual photogrpher contracted - most games do not and the school allows any outfit to shoot/sell since there has never been a problem and at most only 3 outfits trying.
So, my take is this - continue to pursue, but do it in the right channels. Find out what the contract grants the other company and what it doesn't. Then work within the system to either gain the contract after it's present term OR to get authority for your own work.
Good luck!
I'm not saying that this is right or wrong, but it is the way things usually go. I know that I usually avoid dealing with businesses that have been a real pain for me in the past. I've seen your website, and there are some great images there; it would be a shame for you to be branded as "confrontational" or "difficult" and to get a bad reputation with the client you are pursuing. You are essentially trying to force them to do business with you - which is a tough sell in any industry. Districts do talk to each other you know, make sure that when your name comes up it's because of the quality of your work and not because of the headaches you're causing them. Who do you expect is going to want that?
Olympus E510 and Gigapan mount
If it's a sporting event, the kids should have a signed release forms already because they are public figures so to speak and their pictures will be published in the paper. It's not feasable for a paper to check to see if it's OK to print the child in a paper if it's sports related. I put the pictures i take freelancing on my website and don't think twice. I do say if there is a picture that a parent/student don't want posted, let me know. It's a public event as well.
Plus, you would be spending so much time trying to get forms signed, you would not have time to shoot!
If it's a school event, classroom picture, that's different. I shoot school events/stories as well and some parents do not want their child in the paper. I get with the teacher, administration to point out the kids who can't be in the paper and keep them either seperated from other kids or just make sure they are not in the background. The same would apply to posting on your website.
After talking to the solicitor, aka. lawyer, I recieved a letter saying they "...can't endorse, or seem to edorse my project." They asked that I "..carefully follow the law and respect the students privacy."
So, what ever that means, who knows. It seems though that they couldn't find any reason to simply say no, but can't say yes as well. Is that what everyone else takes from that??
Dalado
same sort of thing happens in figure skating, I have skating parents that want to compensate me for photos they liked of their skaters, but I can't take a dime (not even for simple printing costs!) and so I give them the photos and just ask for an autograph in return
For those that have followed this saga my solution was to give up on donatations and try a different approach.
My solution in the end was to start a second web site where I report on local sporting news. Now as a member of the media I can attend, photograph, and report on sporting events. And if I choose to sell my photos after publication (just as several local newspapers do) then it is my right to do so.
wallkillphoto.com
I shoot mostly sports, so this topic is of great interest to me, I dont want to come off badly or mean but I have to tell you, your not doing yourself or fellow sport photographers any good by going to war with these people and pissing them off.
If the other company has Exclusive rights, then dont even try to sell your pics. A lot of us here buy these rights and when someone come along and either gives pics away or trys to sell pictures then what you are doing is undercutting a fellow photographer.
If they dont have the exclusive rights , then try try working with the company that has the "in" and isnt doing action, that way the school will let you be there and everyones happy. But to butt heads with them or take the I win or they win attitude isnt good business. This isnt Google vs Microsoft here.
I sponsor Little league orginazations & teams and they give me the exclusive rights, I shoot High School and they kindly let me on there fields, If they dont want me there, I will shoot elsewhere, no harm no foul. Is it really in your best interest to be where the school doesnt want you? You can stand on a hilltop shouting out your Pro emails and the your First ammendnent rights. but reality says its pay to play, its who you know, and its who you schmooze.
Being in the right doesnt always mean you will win,and even if you do, these people have an end around everything.
Like I said, no offense, But i am one of those guys who has exclusive rights contracts and I wouldnt take kindly to you shooting one of my games.
All the best
Chris
www.longislandimage.com
:whip
WWW.LONGISLANDIMAGE.COM