Question...hopefully to stimulate a conversation
HarleyPugs
Registered Users Posts: 106 Major grins
I have a question. I have been a lurker on this site up until the last two contests. I have entered #13 and #14.
The question is....why do so many people enter pics that have nothing to do with the theme? I don't under stand it. Or maybe I am just trying to stay to "in theme".
Anyway..just a question to see what other people think.
Thanks,
Jon
The question is....why do so many people enter pics that have nothing to do with the theme? I don't under stand it. Or maybe I am just trying to stay to "in theme".
Anyway..just a question to see what other people think.
Thanks,
Jon
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Comments
that being said, have a look at the finalists. i'd say 100% of them are on theme to almost anyone's interpretation.
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That is sort of what made me ask the question. Why would some one enter knowing spot on theme pics are choosen as the finalists.
Jon
I have seen images that won that for me personally did not fit the theme but for others it obviously did.
Sometimes the inference of the theme is very obscure but I'm betting with the exception of a few, that each person entering has a personal way of feeling like their image fits into the theme.
Of course the goal is to try and achieve a universal no question response to what theme it is, this just is not always an easy task for everyone.
EDIT: I'm betting sometimes its a matter of - "This is the best I have I'll enter it because if I don't enter I won't have any chance of winning."
I also think that for the most part everyone makes an entry based on their best interpretation of the theme. There are really very few entries that truly fall into the category "This is the best I have...."
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and I do believe its true.. that there are roads left in both of our shoes..
I totally agree, but I think a small selection might be. I know I have entered one image that was a real stretch to be on theme, but I wanted to enter something instead of nothing.
While I agree in general with this, I think the real pay-off for everyone will be realised down the line. The LPS is a learning process that forces you to think about different themes and approaches that you might not have tried otherwise.
As a result, I think it's understandable that the early attempts at a particular idea might be improved on down the track.
But that for me is the big plus to the competition. At the end of the year there will be many people who will be much better photogrpahers for entering. I also think that even if some entries don't fit into the best I have category, the entire body of work will fit into "my best year of shooting" category.
Specifically in relation to the themes, I also agree with Eric, that the finalist photos are generally very strong on theme and I like the diversity in thinking that is seen. It opens up new ideas to my own approach and shows me things I hadn't previously thought of.
Regards,
Peter
Maybe for the same reason that people also don't read the contest rules. Deadlines, frames, exifs, time violations... the list goes on and on.
And to clarify this part of my statement, I meant that folks don't generally just put in their best photo they happen to have on hand, but in disregard to the theme...
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and I do believe its true.. that there are roads left in both of our shoes..
Photo contests are so subjective. You can't predict how a judge is going to respond to a photo. For the LPS contests, you also can't predict how strict a judge is going to be with determining how well a photo suits a theme. With regard to theme, some of the selections in past LPS's have made me do this:
I think that at one point or another a number of us have felt this way after seeing photo judging results.
With regard to an entrant intperpreting the theme, I think that some folks just didn't bother to read the post that describes the theme. They may think "contest", "money", etc., and then just submit a photo and hope for the best. Period.
Some entry photos have definitely been very subtle with theme interpretation, others have been right on the mark, while others have been
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I personally, try and look at the judges sites when they are announced, and see what is their main photographic interest.
Which to me makes me think that is what they are going to be pretty much geared towards...do they like landscapes, lines, angles, architecture, people, children, although they may be versatile, what is their strongest venue when it comes to photography..what is their main channel.
For instance, I am very versatile in photography, but it seems that my main channel is "glamour, sensuality, sexy, beauty", and then wildlife would come in second...so if I see a photo in a contest with those things, I feel (I'm only human afterall) my eye would be compelled to look at those with more intensity.
As stated in previous threads, the Judges are not told what to look for, they are given very little rules when it comes to the contest, but to just use their best possible judgement.
I agree with most here, and definently agree that I have been left a bit in "awe" when some of the photos have been picked for the semi finals...and have thought ...WTF????
I would have to say this was my thoughts when I asked the question. Your reasoning is right in line with mine...;)
For me the theme is the big thing. It makes me think out of my normal shooting modes. Makes me try things so I am thinking theme the whole time. I think the theme is an awesome idea and I look forward to doing more next year.
Jon
I know what you mean about the theme! I've never shot things strictly for texture like I did for this LPS. So this "Red Door" entry of mine was new territory for me. And, I have to admit that I enjoyed the looking for things with texture to photograph. If anything, this LPS gave me good practice in "seeing" things that I would normally not pay much attention to. Yesterday I found myself photographing an old door with some gorgeous discoloration in the wood. It's now the wallpaper on my PC at here at work.
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I know exactly what you mean. I work on computers for a living. As soon as I read that the theme was "Craggy or Smooth" I thought Hard Drive....
Because those not in the business may not know this...but HD's are a pain in the rump..but when opened up I think they are smooth, simple, elegant devices.
I love how LPS makes me think and try and find things that I never thought of.
Jon
But to the original point, I definitely have a hard time finding even a liberal interpretation of the theme in some entries. I won't try to read the intent of the creators, I'll just shrug and move on.
I would say that it is far from "known" that spot on theme pics are chosen as finalists. I disagree with Dr. It's contention that the finalists are unambigiously in theme.
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Someone else may find a nugget of inspiration in a "failed shot" for an idea that they work on in another round. So even just having exposure to failed attempts can wind up doing some good. Art can be an iterative process of attempt and refinement, attempt and refinement, until one day or some person takes it finally to that next level that works all on its own.
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
Same sentiments, but much more refined way of saying what I was trying to get at earlier.
I hope that the real benefits are down the line, when all the additional experience and thought processes become really useful to help take my own image making to the next level.
Rule break aside (which shows a lack of reading), just because I can't see the relevance of a particular entry, doesn't mean that the entry isn't relevant, only that I can't think about the shot the same way that the photographer thought of it. In some cases, that may be my limitation rather than theirs.
Regards,
Peter
Being in Australia, of course everything you say and do is completely upside down.
Very well said Peter! That's why I can't understand why the issues with someone else's entry being "off theme" or whatever. As artists we all interpret the theme based on our own unique set of opinions, vision, aesthetics, language, culture, experience (etc, etc, etc!) and execute accordingly. The theme is a great place to start spawning ideas, to launch those creative juices, but I never understood this contest to be "take the picture that embodies this word the most literally."
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Interpretation can be ambiguous. Aesthetics is not a science, far less then an exact science. That being said, what I often see (not only in this forum but throughout the culture generally) is this ambiguouity and inexactness being used as an excuse for lack of topicality, or even downright laziness or lack of effort.
Being "on" or "off" theme is not black and white. It contains shades of gray. Thus one does not have to interpret the theme "literally" or not in some sort of binary set of options. But shades of gray continue to be monochromatic, and do not include, say, shades of hot pink.
I think it is difficult to argue against the fact that a lot of folks are taking this contest as an opportunity to win ca$h and prizes (which it is) and are approaching it from a gamblng type perspective- if there is a potential payoff, and there are no entry costs, why not enter? even if one doesn't have an entry that has anything to do with the theme, or even an entry that is good. I think it would be hard to argue that a significant number of entries are entered because the participants have nothing better to put on the wall, so to speak.
Or do you really think that folks sat back and said, "hmm, the entry is steamy or chilled, so I am going to go out and shoot the best dead center shot of an acorn lying on the ground that I can." Unlikely.
When I give critiques (and given that I constantly harp on things being "off theme" and thus assume that this post is essentially directed towards me or people like me) I am entitled to my judgement, and in my judgement the "theme" is or ought be more than semantic claptrap.
really love all the conversation that is taking place on this....
Learning a lot.
Thanks guys.
Jon
I don't disagree with you that some entries can be way off topic as far as I can interpret the images, but perhaps it is more to do with a limited ability to communicate effectively in a visual medium, rather than laziness, lack of effort or a post just to be in the running for prizes.
Perhaps the photographer really can see the theme in their shot, but they just don't have the experience or knowledge to develop a composition that allows others to see it the same way.
To me, that's part of what this competition is about and is one of the great benefits of having themes. It forces us to think about images and approaches we wouldn't have thought of otherwise.
If we start by being off the mark in a big way, then the comments and lack of judges votes should be sufficient feedback to encourage us to think differently and try new approaches.
I agree, but at the same time I don't assume that the interpretation of the theme is only right if it agrees with my opinion.
I know that's not exactly what you are saying, but I would hate everyone to approach the competition from the same direction. Where does the creativity go if the approach of everyone is the same?
In my own photos, I tend to be fairly conservative and try to make the theme very central to the message, but perhaps that just ends up producing images that look the same as thousands of images produced before.
Maybe if I was less conservative and more outside the box, I might produce an image that breaks my own photography into new ground, even if ultimately most people feel it misses the theme.
I guess I would sum it up in a more positive light and say that while prizes are a motivating factor for entering the competition, there is much more to be gained from the experience.
I also think that there are still many lurkers around who would love to enter, but the fear of failure stops them. So, even with good prizes, it can be difficult to overcome personal insecurities; and overcoming them might be the best benefit for some people, especially when the feedback is negative and you can still pluck up the guts to continue.
Regards,
Peter
That's where the "interpretation" bit makes me itchy. I recall a thesis defense I once attended where a particularly dimwitted student was attempting to make the case that Immanual Kant was "anti-rational" and some sort of "mystic" in reference to how one obtains moral knowledge. This is absolutley incorrect, and its inexcusable for one defending a thesis in philosophy to make this proposition, but he stuck to it. Even when the lead prof on the committee pointed out that this was 180 degress from the truth, he kept claiming "it depends on how you interpret it." Even when the prof went to his office, got Kant's book (the "groundwork") and read the following quote: ( I think, this was 18 years ago)
Physics will thushave an empirical and also a rational part. It is the same with
Ethics; but here the empirical part might have the special name of
practical anthropology, the name morality being appropriated to the
rational part."
Long story short, even when the prof pulled out the proof and shoved it in his face, the student kept repeating, like a mantra "well, I interpret it differently." The point I am making is that even in situations where there is interpretation, some interpretations are ridiculous.
I don't think this follows from the assertion that one ought to take the theme seriously.
If that is indeed the case (and I doubt it is) then the sameness of your images lies not in the existence of the theme, or its centrality, but in problems you are having with interpreting it.
That may be true- in terms of technique. But taking a theme of "man or machine" and submitting a photo of a sunset is not thinking outside the box. It's just ignoring the theme. Or, submitting a boring photo of a person, and claiming that it has a "man" in it and thus fits theme, doesn't obviate the fact that the photo is lame. (these are theoretical examples, not relating to your work specifically). Doing the same supercute kid or other flavor of "hello kitty" shot that has been done 1000 times before isn't thinking outside the box either.
Maybe. I look at the photos because some of them are good, and thought provoking. As far as busting my ass to submit, I'd rather do so in Nikolai's workshops, because the results of the contests are often, frankly, insulting- even when I haven't entered anything. And I am quite certain I have poisened the well to the point where there is no possibility of me winning, because I have been consistently critical of what I see as a major problem. My last entry of the heroin addict, for example- not a great shot, cetainly not good enough to win, but certainly good enough to show up in the top 2/3's, which it didn't. Also, better than one particular photo that made the finals that was in fact "in theme" but badly done. So badly done as to make me question the utility of the process (badly done in a technical sense, as in the photographer didn't take the extra few seconds to do proper framing, horizon control, nor the few minutes required in photoshop to fix the glaring errors).
Which is exactly why, when I was doing the critiques, I have consistently tried to put something I liked and didn't like into every photo I critiqued. What I didn't like, even for the best photos, so that people had some point of departure to use for imrpovement. What I liked, even in the worst photos, so that if a person wasn't in fact totaly careless, but rather a beginner, they would be encouraged to continue. (sometimes this was really difficult, as I really wanted to say "why are you wasting my time.") I tried to do both of these in detail, because a monosyballic critique like "That's nice" or "Cute" or "funny" is essentially useless in terms of giving one something to chew on and make one's photography better. The fact of the matter is that doing those sort of critiques is a lot of work, and it isn't appreciated in this particular forum, whereas in places like "the whipping post" it generally is.
It's always bemused me but by and large the images get kicked out at the judging stage so it has little effect other than to make the judging a bit more difficult/time consuming.
I've certainly read a great deal of hyperbole and nonsense from various contributors and have learnt to ignore such sophistry and move along.
Charlie
Absolutely, I don't disagree.
But I also don't think it follows that every interpretation different to mine is ridiculous just because I don't personally understand it.
As to the philosophy anecdote, I'll take your word for it since my area is chemistry, and I don't profess any particular expertise in ethics other than the one semester of ethics back in my honours year a long time ago.
No, I didn't read into it that you did. You definitely stated the grey nature of theme interpretation. The statement was just a statement of my own personal view. Nothing more.
That's OK, I think the photos I've submitted have been on theme, but it's not sweat that you have a different view.
But as to sameness, that wasn't necessarily my point that I have a problem interpreting the themes, it was more to do with the risk that group norms stifle creativity and lead to a group of images that look similar.
So for me, if someone submits an entry that I just don't get, then I'm open to the possibilty that the photographer is genuinely trying to submit an entry and it's just me that doesn't get it.
I don't presume that every photo that I don't get is just a an attempt by someone to grab a prize.
But I do agree that some images look crazy in terms of the theme. But the photographers aren't wasting my time by submitting them, only I can do that.
Absolutely and I don't think anyone would say it is thinking outside the box.
No, the photo can be lame, even if it is on theme and more so if not.
Absolutely, since just repeating what has already been done to death is the antithesis of thinking outside the box.
If that's truly the case, then that would be unfortunate since photos should be judged on their merit, not on political or other views in relation to the entrant. Everything I've seen would suggest that images are voted on their merits, but that's just my view and I may be wrong.
Regards,
Peter
I can only speak for myself here, but I have never thought of you or your images in a negative light based on your critical view. I feel it is important to be able to disagree with one another without letting that come to point where enemies are made.
Being able to argue a point, as is being displayed here, without making enemies, is a great way to hash out ideas. When everyone agrees about everything, it is real easy to slip into an unimaginative state of being. Being able to disagree about something and still be productive can stir the pot of creativity. Knowing you don't have to have everyone agree with you and you don't have to agree with them helps free the mind to explore unorthodox ideas.
Where that becomes a problem is in an environment that punishes disagreement. I certainly don't want to see that, and so I welcome your critical views, and hope to see more of your work in the contest. You have not poisoned any well I dip into
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
I agree, Justi, you haven't poisoned any well in here at all. Your opinions help us see things very clearly. Perhaps it is, however, that you relish the thought that your naked critique might somehow prevent you not only from someday being selected for a semi-final, but also from ever being selected as a judge. I don't believe either is true, in fact, that the first will be an exciting day for us all, and the second, well, perhaps "Justice" will finally be served.
But I must ask.... Am I the only one who has been waiting in anticipation for your return from Montana so that you might actually spread your criticism even handedly by actually finishing your so called "abrasive" thread? Perhaps I am. In case you are so inclined, it's still out there on the edge of the cliff on page 7, waiting for you to save it from the brink of extinction! Hasten, I plead you, before 5 more advice threads choke the oxygen from it's lungs.....
:help :fish
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and I do believe its true.. that there are roads left in both of our shoes..
"It depends on what the meaning of 'is' is."
Ahhhhhhh, Justi. Can I be honest and say I really enjoy it when you voice your opinions? I may or may not agree with some of them, but it sure is fun and lively stuff. Oh, and I'm with Mark, I actually like your "abrasive critique." Keep 'em coming!
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