New image sizes?

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  • bwgbwg Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 2,119 SmugMug Employee
    edited October 22, 2007
    Jason Dunn wrote:
    I've noticed something strange about the new sizes: they don't seem to be remembered as they were before. Previously with Smugmug, if I clicked on an image from the Smugmug Gallery view it would take me to the "full image" view - and if I had last clicked size "M" it would remember that. Now if I go to an image:

    http://photos.jasondunn.com/gallery/3688300#211057076-A-LB

    Then I click XL:

    http://photos.jasondunn.com/gallery/3688300#211057076-XL-LB

    ...and shut down the browser tab (I'm not clearing out cookies or anything, just closing the tab), and head back to the gallery, I once again see the size large. It even happens when I click on the image to go back to the Smugmug gallery view...clicking on an image takes me to a size "L" preview, not the XL I had previously selected. This is in Firefox 2.0.0.8 on Windows Vista.

    Internet Explorer 7 has it's own quirks - it ALWAYS presents size XL, even if I've previously selected size "M"...except the URL looks like it's size large:

    http://photos.jasondunn.com/gallery/3688300#211057983-A-LB

    headscratch.gif I know I read in this forum that XL is the new size "L", but regardless, shouldn't Smugmug continue to remember the size that the user selected? XL is great, but maybe someone with a low-res monitor (or someone that isn't browsing full screen) would prever to have size "L". I always liked that feature about Smugmug...
    Lightbox now auto-selects the largest size that will fit on the screen. Someone with a high-res display may get XL size where a lo-res display may get Large or Medium. You can manually select different sizes once in lightbox but closing and reopening lightbox will enable auto-sizing again. -A on the url indicates auto-sizing.

    I love your customization BTW.
    Pedal faster
  • underexposedunderexposed Registered Users Posts: 10 Big grins
    edited October 22, 2007
    looks like the bandwidth stats need to be updated as well...
  • jfriendjfriend Registered Users Posts: 8,097 Major grins
    edited October 22, 2007
    Please preserve copyright info in the large size EXIF
    I've mentioned this before, but now with the new sizes I feel like this matters even more with the new larger viewing sizes.

    I would like a few important fields of IPTC/XMP data (like copyright info) to be preserved in the M, L, XL, XL2, XL3 sizes. Right now, everything is stripped from all generated sizes. This is about clarifying the legal ownership for these larger sized images, even in cases where someone borrows them. If we're just talking about a few ownership-related fields, this shouldn't be impactful on the size of the images.

    Yes, I know that this info could be stripped by a knowledgable thief, but in cases where it isn't stripped, it would be nice to have that info in the images.
    --John
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  • renstarrenstar Registered Users Posts: 167 Major grins
    edited October 22, 2007
    jfriend wrote:
    I've mentioned this before, but now with the new sizes I feel like this matters even more with the new larger viewing sizes.

    I would like a few important fields of IPTC/XMP data (like copyright info) to be preserved in the M, L, XL, XL2, XL3 sizes. Right now, everything is stripped from all generated sizes. This is about clarifying the legal ownership for these larger sized images, even in cases where someone borrows them. If we're just talking about a few ownership-related fields, this shouldn't be impactful on the size of the images.

    Yes, I know that this info could be stripped by a knowledgable thief, but in cases where it isn't stripped, it would be nice to have that info in the images.

    Seconded.
  • colourboxcolourbox Registered Users Posts: 2,095 Major grins
    edited October 22, 2007
    Along the same lines, I was thinking that instead of today's binary choice of "watermarking: yes/no" I would like to see the ability to watermark only above a chosen size. That way, the smaller, hard-to-pirate sizes would not need to be significantly obstructed by a watermark, while the high-res, tempting-to-pirate versions would have a watermark.
  • BenA2BenA2 Registered Users Posts: 364 Major grins
    edited October 22, 2007
    jfriend wrote:
    I've mentioned this before, but now with the new sizes I feel like this matters even more with the new larger viewing sizes.

    I would like a few important fields of IPTC/XMP data (like copyright info) to be preserved in the M, L, XL, XL2, XL3 sizes. Right now, everything is stripped from all generated sizes. This is about clarifying the legal ownership for these larger sized images, even in cases where someone borrows them. If we're just talking about a few ownership-related fields, this shouldn't be impactful on the size of the images.

    Yes, I know that this info could be stripped by a knowledgable thief, but in cases where it isn't stripped, it would be nice to have that info in the images.
    One could even argue that once you get to the XL+ sizes, all the EXIF/IPTC/XMP data can be retained. Because, at those sizes, metadata becomes a less significant percentage of overall file size and therefore has a less perceptable impact on download speed. By extension, I'm also assuming the additional storage capacity needed on SmugMug's side would be insignificant as well.
  • 1pocket1pocket Registered Users Posts: 299 Major grins
    edited October 22, 2007
    nsh65 wrote:
    Hi,

    I'm a Standard user, and I'd also like to have the option to hide originals as we had before. I was really annoyed to find out after I made one of my most recent galleries public, that users could view my photos in sizes that I really didn't want them to see.

    One thing, on the customize gallery page, I can only select "Original" or "X3Large" in the Largest Size select box. Can you add more sizes in the box, such as Large or XL, please? Also, please restore the "Show/Block Originals" radio button.

    One of the main reasons I joined Smugmug over 2 years ago was because I could block originals without having to resize all my photos. If this feature is permanently removed, I'll be forced rethink my membership.

    I read a few posts up that the management will be restoring some of these features. When can we expect this to be completed?

    Thanks for listening!
    Ditto -- why not go all the way down to simple Large? I definitely resent the limit on maximum size choices. Hell for my little 6 megapix camera triple X is almost original :) What is the point of having just the two choices -- Original or triple X????
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  • jfriendjfriend Registered Users Posts: 8,097 Major grins
    edited October 23, 2007
    BenA2 wrote:
    One could even argue that once you get to the XL+ sizes, all the EXIF/IPTC/XMP data can be retained. Because, at those sizes, metadata becomes a less significant percentage of overall file size and therefore has a less perceptable impact on download speed. By extension, I'm also assuming the additional storage capacity needed on SmugMug's side would be insignificant as well.

    Good idea.
    --John
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  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
    edited October 23, 2007
    1pocket wrote:
    Ditto -- why not go all the way down to simple Large? I definitely resent the limit on maximum size choices. Hell for my little 6 megapix camera triple X is almost original :) What is the point of having just the two choices -- Original or triple X????
    hang in there, it's coming, as baldy posted thumb.gif
  • oddstuffoddstuff Registered Users Posts: 54 Big grins
    edited October 23, 2007
    Thx Andy for the heads up. :ivar
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  • darryldarryl Registered Users Posts: 997 Major grins
    edited October 23, 2007
    In the odd case that you're a Pro account holder that doesn't use watermarks, and you *want* the new sizes generated, I discovered that if you "unwatermark" a photo that doesn't actually have a watermark, it generates the new sizes for you. Pretty damn quickly, it would seem.
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
    edited October 23, 2007
    jfriend wrote:
    I've mentioned this before, but now with the new sizes I feel like this matters even more with the new larger viewing sizes.

    I would like a few important fields of IPTC/XMP data (like copyright info) to be preserved in the M, L, XL, XL2, XL3 sizes. Right now, everything is stripped from all generated sizes. This is about clarifying the legal ownership for these larger sized images, even in cases where someone borrows them. If we're just talking about a few ownership-related fields, this shouldn't be impactful on the size of the images.

    Yes, I know that this info could be stripped by a knowledgable thief, but in cases where it isn't stripped, it would be nice to have that info in the images.
    I've been looking into this. So one big "IF" is if we can selectively parse out metadata without impacting image processing time. Coupla data points, based on my analysis this morning. We gen 8 display sizes, but even if we just were able to keep full metadata on the XL, XL2 and XL3 copies, that could be around 300Kb per image you upload to SmugMug. We took in 100,000,000 images in our first four years in business, and then 100,000,000 more in just the last one year :) So there are some costs to consider, not only storage, bandwidth, but then page-weight. What is the impact of ~100Kb to the on-page viewing experience in a SmugMug gallery in smugmug style? Keep in mind, SmugMungous part II is to have the gallery be fluid, stretch, to fill your giant monitors with many thumbnails and a XL, or perhaps even larger, main image :) We want SmugMug to be really fast, for everyone. So we have to consider that, very high on the list of decision points. In fact, the on-page, in-gallery experience is probably the most important factor, moreso than the cost of storage and bandwidth (which we do probably better than ANYone out there in this business).

    The above is mitigated, if we could do what you suggest, keeping ONLY say the copyright notice, copyright status, and author fields, for example. But I have no idea how do-able that is, given our image processing tools/steps/workflow, or if it's even a reasonable interim step to add, without causing processing delay, cost and overhead. Over the past year and a half, overall, we've improved image processing dramatically, and yes, there have been bumps in the road from time to time, but we no longer have those nasty Sunday night backlogs in the queue. SmugMug customers today are accustomed to rapid image processing, and we want to keep it that way.

    :jfriend
  • michaelbmichaelb Registered Users Posts: 2 Beginner grinner
    edited October 23, 2007
    onethumb wrote:
    - Is this important to you?
    - Do you have a Standard or Power level account (or if you're thinking about signing up, what level you're eyeing)?

    Thanks!

    1. Yes, I just signed up for a trial membership and i don't like the idea of not being able to block images greater than large size. I'm not a pro, but I am not pleased with the idea of people using my images without my consent. Because of this I won't be uploading any more large images.

    2. Trial account, so maybe my opinion doesn't matter. :D
    I think you should be able to block images greater than large size, even with a standard account.
  • FoocharFoochar Registered Users Posts: 135 Major grins
    edited October 23, 2007
    michaelb wrote:
    1. Yes, I just signed up for a trial membership and i don't like the idea of not being able to block images greater than large size. I'm not a pro, but I am not pleased with the idea of people using my images without my consent. Because of this I won't be uploading any more large images.

    This IS coming to some degree, although you'll only be able to block images larger than the new XL size, see this post by Baldy on page 10 of this thread. While not yet implemented it is testing and coming "soon" according to andy in this post
    --Travis
  • DonMBDonMB Registered Users Posts: 23 Big grins
    edited October 23, 2007
    Andy wrote:
    The above is mitigated, if we could do what you suggest, keeping ONLY say the copyright notice, copyright status, and author fields, for example. But I have no idea how do-able that is, given our image processing tools/steps/workflow, or if it's even a reasonable interim step to add, without causing processing delay, cost and overhead. Over the past year and a half, overall, we've improved image processing dramatically, and yes, there have been bumps in the road from time to time, but we no longer have those nasty Sunday night backlogs in the queue. SmugMug customers today are accustomed to rapid image processing, and we want to keep it that way.

    Why couldn't it be setup like watermarking? Instead of adding a watermark to the images, you add the above exif/iptc data?
  • BenA2BenA2 Registered Users Posts: 364 Major grins
    edited October 23, 2007
    Andy wrote:
    Coupla data points, based on my analysis this morning. We gen 8 display sizes, but even if we just were able to keep full metadata on the XL, XL2 and XL3 copies, that could be around 300Kb per image you upload to SmugMug.
    Hmm. I threw out the idea of preserving all metadata down to XL under the impression it was on the order of 20K per image. At 100K, I can see how that's a bigger deal. I checked a little data myself and found the following sizes for an example image: XL: 217K, X2: 320K, & X3: 477K. If you added 100K of metadata to each of those, you'd be allocating an additional 30% in memory to store it. That's a pretty big hit; whereas, it would only be a 6% increase at 20K. Of course, if you calculate that as a percentage of total storage, factoring in the originals, that mitigates the impact a bit more. But, even if the total storage impact is something like 5%, that's still a lot of disk space SmugMug's got to pay for.

    I do still like John's idea. But, I can see how it would have to be a stripped down set of data to be reasonable.
  • dugmardugmar Registered Users Posts: 756 Major grins
    edited October 23, 2007
    Photo sizing question
    I'm confused. Some of my galleries show the new sizes as an option, some do not. Am I missing something obvious here?

    For example, photos uploaded same day, same camera, same sub cat:
    http://dugmar.smugmug.com/Travel/396865

    This gallery allows for the XL and new sizes:
    http://dugmar.smugmug.com/gallery/3665751


    However, this one does not:
    http://dugmar.smugmug.com/gallery/3665614
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
    edited October 23, 2007
    You must regenerate the new sizes for photos that are online before we started making them.

    Rotate left, wait till they are rotated, then rotate right.

    http://blogs.smugmug.com/release-notes/2007/10/15/smugmungous-october-15th-2007/
  • joglejogle Registered Users Posts: 422 Major grins
    edited October 23, 2007
    We gen 8 display sizes, but even if we just were able to keep full metadata on the XL, XL2 and XL3 copies, that could be around 300Kb per image you upload to SmugMug.

    I've just done a quick test with lightroom and the size difference between ticking the "minimise embedded metadata" and not during export. For images from the Canon 5D, it is 6,218 bytes difference in filesize.

    Looking at the files with exiftool shows that that that 6kb difference between files includes all the camera settings, copyright and raw conversion settings.

    We're not talking hundreds of Kilobytes of data.
    jamesOgle photography
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The single most important component of a camera is the twelve inches behind it." -A.Adams[/FONT]
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
    edited October 23, 2007
    jogle wrote:
    I
    We're not talking hundreds of Kilobytes of data.
    It totally depends :) Remember, I said "IF" we could parse out stuff.

    There can be geodata, keywords, caption, and much more in the metadata, and it can add up :)

    Thanks!
  • AllenAllen Registered Users Posts: 10,013 Major grins
    edited October 23, 2007
    darryl wrote:
    In the odd case that you're a Pro account holder that doesn't use watermarks, and you *want* the new sizes generated, I discovered that if you "unwatermark" a photo that doesn't actually have a watermark, it generates the new sizes for you. Pretty damn quickly, it would seem.
    Great tip! clap.gif Works like a charm. Thanks
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  • SheafSheaf Registered Users, SmugMug Product Team Posts: 775 SmugMug Employee
    edited October 23, 2007
    darryl wrote:
    In the odd case that you're a Pro account holder that doesn't use watermarks, and you *want* the new sizes generated, I discovered that if you "unwatermark" a photo that doesn't actually have a watermark, it generates the new sizes for you. Pretty damn quickly, it would seem.

    Bah, just use the SmugMungous photo tool. That's what it is for! mwink.gif

    (under the photo, photo tools, SmugMungous! (bulk))
    SmugMug Product Manager
  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
    edited October 23, 2007
    Baldy wrote:
    Many thanks for taking the time to pour your hearts out regarding this issue. The honest answer is none of us at SmugMug ever imagined this could happen. eek7.gif Nothing would be worse than not knowing we disappointed some of you, so we're glad you spoke up.

    As far as sneaking it out goes, trust me when I say we would have LOVED to spam you with "The extra-large photo sizes you've all been wanting are here!" (We now know that not all were wanting them.)

    If we'd had a clue that there would be consternation instead of the dancing in the streets we had envisioned, we would have figured out how to make more noise in advance of it.

    There's no way we want these larger sizes to be a reason for you to upgrade to a Pro subscription. So we're changing the customize gallery tool for standard and power users to enable you to restrict X2Large and X3Large. It isn't live at the moment, but we're working on it and hope to have it done quickly.

    Why not enable blocking of XL? The answer is XL is the new L. It's a standard feature of photo sharing sites now because L looks so archaic on modern monitors, as our customers tell us all day long. We've tried to provide private islands, plus private and password-protected albums for sensitive photos.

    I hope this helps and wish I had an answer that would please everyone.

    All the best,
    Baldy

    We've made this live, folks. Standard and Power customers can now restrict X2 and X3 sizes, it's in your gallery customizing page deal.gif

    Thanks so much again for everyone's patience, and for sticking with us. We truly do have the greatest customers :D
  • sethseth Registered Users Posts: 14 Big grins
    edited October 23, 2007
    Sheaf wrote:
    Bah, just use the SmugMungous photo tool.

    Nice! Thanks.
  • 1pocket1pocket Registered Users Posts: 299 Major grins
    edited October 23, 2007
    Andy wrote:
    hang in there, it's coming, as baldy posted thumb.gif
    Okay, we are now apparently down as far as XLarge as the maximum option for large sizes (there must be a better way to say that!) -- but why not back to where we were, ie Large as a choice for maximum size??? Just one more button...
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  • AndyAndy Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
    edited October 23, 2007
    1pocket wrote:
    Okay, we are now apparently down as far as XLarge as the maximum option for large sizes (there must be a better way to say that!) -- but why not back to where we were, ie Large as a choice for maximum size??? Just one more button...

    Hello, our reasons are stated in Baldy's post above (quoted in my last post).

    I'm sorry I don't have a better or different answer for you :(
  • JenGraceJenGrace Registered Users Posts: 1,229 Major grins
    edited October 23, 2007
    Andy wrote:
    We've made this live, folks. Standard and Power customers can now restrict X2 and X3 sizes, it's in your gallery customizing page deal.gif

    Thanks so much again for everyone's patience, and for sticking with us. We truly do have the greatest customers :D

    You all make it easy to be great customers when you offer great service. Thanks again to everyone at Smugmug HQ for listening. clap.gif
    Jen

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  • darryldarryl Registered Users Posts: 997 Major grins
    edited October 23, 2007
    Sheaf wrote:
    Bah, just use the SmugMungous photo tool. That's what it is for! mwink.gif

    (under the photo, photo tools, SmugMungous! (bulk)

    Bah -- when did you sneak that in there? :-}
  • devbobodevbobo Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 4,339 SmugMug Employee
    edited October 23, 2007
    darryl wrote:
    Bah -- when did you sneak that in there? :-}

    .... :D
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  • darryldarryl Registered Users Posts: 997 Major grins
    edited October 24, 2007
    devbobo wrote:

    Hah! Then my suggestion to use unwatermark (for non-watermarkering Pro users like me) to get the Smugmungous rendering was good for a full 16 or so hours before the Smugmungous Tool appeared under Photo Tools.

    (Based on Andy and Sheaf's postings, it rolled around 5:30pm PDT)

    :-}
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