Anyone here do MX photography ???

grassy · November 28, 2007

Hi,

We are new to this forum...we tend to lurk at another

but was referred here...

We have been doing MX (and sometimes ice racing) photography for a couple of years...but want to get better but cannot find anyone in the industry that can or is willing help us...

Have scoured the i'net...found a bunch of photographers but nada on the technical side.

Will be buying another camera soon and want to make sure we are going in the right direction.

From what I have discovered, this is a really neat place and will post a few pics to be stomped on soon

Help !

Grassy

PS - we have been a smugmugger for @ 3 years...

2whlrcr · November 28, 2007

I do some moto photo and there are others who post here. I am strictly a amateur and not sure how much help I could be. There are a couple of guys here who are professionals and do excellent work.

Fill out your profile. Where are you located?

grassy · November 28, 2007

Any help is appreciated.

We live in Nova Scotia and follow the Atlantic Circuit with includes N.S, N.B., and P.E.I.

I have posted a few pics in the whipping post....

Ian.

pastoral · November 28, 2007

motox
I do quite a bit of dirt bike and quad photography but I surely don't consider myself to be a pro. I work at a motorcycle park in Florida and use that as an opportunity to learn, practice and shoot, but I'm willing to share what little I have learned.

kelsow · November 29, 2007

Great, just what I need, more competition...

Good to see you here. I think we both will get some help from the locals here.
My new camera arrives in a week or so which means my old P&S will be
relegated for trail use only.
I look forward to seeing some of your shots.

grassy · November 29, 2007

Kelsow,

You haven't put faces to our name yet

I sent you Sarah's ice racing pics last year

What type of camera are you going for ?

We have been around for almost 3 years...Sarah has been selling her pics for a season now ..there has been a steady improvement. There is one other that does the same but we are told that our pictures are quuite different.

Can I contact any of you privately ?

Thanks
Ian.

kelsow · November 29, 2007

I was looking at some of the pix just last night believe it or not,
http://yamigrl.smugmug.com/gallery/2460060/1/129340418#129340418

I bought a D40x from a member here in fact so now I'm on the lookout for
a Tokina 12x24 and a Nikor 55-200VR. Know anyone?

I don't plan on photographing any MX next year but you never know. I will certainly be
doing some ice racing and some pix as well, maybe Sarah can get a pic of me?

You can contact me any time, here or via www.dualsport.ca

Cheers

amadeus · November 29, 2007

grassy wrote:

Hi,

We are new to this forum...we tend to lurk at another but was referred here...

We have been doing MX (and sometimes ice racing) photography for a couple of years...but want to get better but cannot find anyone in the industry that can or is willing help us...

Have scoured the i'net...found a bunch of photographers but nada on the technical side.

Will be buying another camera soon and want to make sure we are going in the right direction.

From what I have discovered, this is a really neat place and will post a few pics to be stomped on soon

Help !

Grassy

PS - we have been a smugmugger for @ 3 years...

watch your step. it can be a pretty rough crowd around here with some of the "expert photographers" and "professionals" who view this website as more of a venue for showing how good they think they are and taking the opportunity to point out how much room for improvement you have, as opposed to enjoying and sharing pictures for what they are.

which is nothing more complicated than a moment in time that has been captured by someone with a camera.

but like jesus DGrin means something different to all of us.

As the great Jimmy Weinert used to say "when the green flag drops the bullshit stops". Or maybe it was Dirt Bike saying that about Jimmy Weinert?

who knows.

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=74365

:ian

HarveyMushman · November 29, 2007

grassy wrote:

Hi,

We are new to this forum...we tend to lurk at another but was referred here...

We have been doing MX (and sometimes ice racing) photography for a couple of years...but want to get better but cannot find anyone in the industry that can or is willing help us...

Have scoured the i'net...found a bunch of photographers but nada on the technical side.

Will be buying another camera soon and want to make sure we are going in the right direction.

From what I have discovered, this is a really neat place and will post a few pics to be stomped on soon

Help !

Grassy

PS - we have been a smugmugger for @ 3 years...

Help you with what, exactly?

Why the royal "we?"

I have exactly one day of MX experience.

http://tswphoto.smugmug.com/gallery/3021952#164178159

grassy · November 29, 2007

Kelson,

Saa-weet camera but out of our budget...I think there is going to be a K10 in this household soon. Sarah and Calum both made the nov 2 RacerX E-zing in November...here is the link...they are at the bottom..

http://www.racerxcanada.com/news/3960/frideh-update-44-presented-by-ignition-racing/

And yes, we will be watching your board..we had planned on racing but Mom put an end to that..

Amadeus..

Great pics..and yes...I have aready been stomped on for apparently not following the rules..however, the poster didn't read my post before he hit the return key...I gather it is "process over content" here...

Harvy...think you have that directory mis-labeled..wasn't that the MXdN in September...you pics look like they were taken on Saturday..less drunks around the fence..great pivs BTW. I saw that largest lens ever there...and what did you think of the guy with the chainsaw ?

The royal "we" is for me, Ian, and my daughter Sarah who everyone know as Yamigrl.

_______________

First question. When taking pics at ice racing, you have to use a polarizer, correct ? However, if you len container rotates, so does the polarizer...how do you over come this ?

HarveyMushman · November 29, 2007

grassy wrote:

Harvy...think you have that directory mis-labeled..wasn't that the MXdN in September...

Nope. They were taken at the AMA round in June.

First question. When taking pics at ice racing, you have to use a polarizer, correct ?

Are you trying to simply reduce the overall amount of light reaching the film/sensor? If so a neutral density filter would be another option. Also, a ND filter isn't affected by the rotation of the lens.

As for accounting for the rotating focus element when using a circular polariser, you can pre-focus on the approximate distance from the camera you anticpate your subject to be when you trip the shutter, and adjust the polarizer then. Or you can use the old-style polarizer that doesn't rotate. Or buy a lens that focuses internally.

gus · November 29, 2007

amadeus wrote:

watch your step. it can be a pretty rough crowd around here with some of the "expert photographers" and "professionals" who view this website as more of a venue for showing how good they think they are and taking the opportunity to point out how much room for improvement you have, as opposed to enjoying and sharing pictures for what they are.

That comment is totally uncalled for. I wont let you do it again. Consider it a shot across your bow.

I wont fire a second one. You are most welcome in this forum but i will ask that you extend the same respect to ALL photographers on D/grin as the rest of us do.

mercphoto · November 29, 2007

grassy wrote:

We have been doing MX (and sometimes ice racing) photography for a couple of years...but want to get better but cannot find anyone in the industry that can or is willing help us...

You'll find a lot of good advice and critiques here. But I can understand the "industry" not willing to help much. The competition from mom and pop is the MX crowd can be pretty intense. Lots of free and cheap photos showing up from races, so you probably won't get any help from those in the 'biz. In other words, I hope you don't have your heart set on making money selling MX photos.

Use your flash. Get a good strong flash unit. In the Canon line get the 580, not the 430, for example. Get an external battery for it, as it will recharge much faster. Use the flash even in daylight, as you will be surprised how much it helps. Especially on jump shots, where the underside of the bike is usually in the shadows.

The hardest thing I had when starting out was getting shots of every rider. It was over-whelming how many riders come at you and trying to get everyone. I often ended up with lots of this guy, none of someone else. I don't know the trick I eventually learned, things just started "slowing down" for me and I was able to get more pics of every rider.

The next hardest thing I had was with composing fast moving subjects. I've seen this a lot with other newbies as well. Tires cropped just a bit on the bottoms, back or front. Helmets cropped just a bit off the top. And when not cropped they aren't position well in the frame. This isn't nitpicking. Sporadic composition is hallmark of an amateur photographer. If you want to be better than that, then learn to compose rapidly on a moving subject and learn to get consistent and pleasing compositions. If this is not your goal then just be happy with what you do get. But I get the idea you're wanting to improve.

After awhile, if you try, you will start getting consistent compositions from shot to shot no matter how fast they come at you. At that point you're no longer a mom-and-pop shooter.

Next come the details. Catching them in the corners at the right moment, when their inside foot is fully extended, their finger on the clutch or brake handle, dirt flying off the back tire. Those moments are brief and you need to be deliberate to capture that moment time and time again. Its hard at first, gets easier as you try more and more.

And by "deliberate" I mean don't turn on the burst mode and fire off six shots in a row of each rider hoping to get the "keeper". For one, you likely will miss the keeper anyway, even at eight frames per second on a Canon 1-series. For two, at a typical MX race you will take so many photographs that you will not have the time to do much culling of the bad photos. Be deliberate with the shots you do take.

Jump shots seem to thrill the riders the most. They can be hard to capture for many reasons. You have to guess how high they will fly, otherwise its hard to follow them. Often the spot you want to stand to photograph them in leaves you will an inability to see them approach, meaning your reaction time has to be very rapid. A really good composition I liked as being on the mound itself, such as near the flagger, with a 24-70, shooting at them. BE CAREFUL THOUGH, YOU HONESTLY SERIOUSLY CAN GET HURT HERE.

Night MX -- you need a flash for certain, use manual exposure and TTL flash. The stadium lighting will stink but still pay very close attention to where those lights are in relation.

I had good success with a Canon 20D and MX photography, with the exception of night racing. A 1-series camera, while not necessary for a lot of types of photography, really shined in MX, expecially at night but also in the daytime. A good camera body, a 24-70/2.8 lens and a 70-200/2.8 lens, and a strong flash are the gear you want.

Angelo · November 29, 2007

grassy wrote:

Hi,

We are new to this forum...we tend to lurk at another but was referred here...

We have been doing MX (and sometimes ice racing) photography for a couple of years...but want to get better but cannot find anyone in the industry that can or is willing help us...

Have scoured the i'net...found a bunch of photographers but nada on the technical side.

Will be buying another camera soon and want to make sure we are going in the right direction.

From what I have discovered, this is a really neat place and will post a few pics to be stomped on soon

Help !

Grassy

PS - we have been a smugmugger for @ 3 years...

welcome aboard! I'm sure you'll find lots of help and make new friends here just as I have.

many talented people here in the genre (I'm not one)

and lots of friendly people (I think I'm one of those)

.

kelsow · November 29, 2007

Ian, I looked at Sarah's gallery and it really is quite good. How old is she?
I think she is only 14 or so and if that's the case, she's doing great.
One thing that makes racing pix look better is a slower shutter speed on the panning shots..
Something that will show the wheels spinning but still keep most of the
rider in focus. It takes practise for sure. As mentioned above, a good flash will
help stop the motion and get things sharp and still get the blurred effect
that shows speed. Try 60th or 125th, experiment a little.
When I used to do this type of stuff I was shooting slides and negs and that
got real expensive, real fast. Digital is so much better.

grassy · November 30, 2007

HarveyMushman wrote:

Are you trying to simply reduce the overall amount of light reaching the film/sensor? If so a neutral density filter would be another option. Also, a ND filter isn't affected by the rotation of the lens.

Internal focusing lens are very $s

but yes, what we are trying to do is reduce glare so we can see the subjects..actually, we have never tried to take ice racing pics w/o one...I am slowing learning that not all principals I learned for film transfer over to digital

the ND filter interests me...will it get rid of the blinding glare and let is talke a clear pic ?

Thanks Ian.

grassy · November 30, 2007

mercphoto wrote:

You'll find a lot of good advice and critiques here.

Wow. I printed this off so I can go over it slowly. Thanks !

mercphoto · November 30, 2007

grassy wrote:

Internal focusing lens are very $s but yes, what we are trying to do is reduce glare so we can see the subjects..actually, we have never tried to take ice racing pics w/o one...I am slowing learning that not all principals I learned for film transfer over to digital the ND filter interests me...will it get rid of the blinding glare and let is talke a clear pic ?

Thanks Ian.

No. The only thing an ND filter gets rid of is light, and it does so non-discriminantly. A polarizer also gets rid of light (50% of it) but it does so selectively. If you want to get rid of glare use the polaraizer.

And yes, internally focusing lenses are $$$ but well worth the cost. Quality glass is worth every penny, especially if you are photographing for profit.

grassy · November 30, 2007

kelsow wrote:

Ian, I looked at Sarah's gallery and it really is quite good. How old is she?
I think she is only 14 or so and if that's the case, she's doing great.
One thing that makes racing pix look better is a slower shutter speed on the panning shots..
Something that will show the wheels spinning but still keep most of the
rider in focus. It takes practise for sure. As mentioned above, a good flash will
help stop the motion and get things sharp and still get the blurred effect
that shows speed. Try 60th or 125th, experiment a little.
When I used to do this type of stuff I was shooting slides and negs and that
got real expensive, real fast. Digital is so much better.

Isn't it

I think sarah is doing somewhere @ 12K pics a year..and I get in maybe a couple of K ..not all is MX...she also does landscape and people..and she does a lot for the school yearbook...if you start at her first posting on her smugmug, I think she has improved immensly (however , As I mentioned, I am biased

) We bought he the camera after we sold her bike..you know the rules here...:cry and we wanted he to be involved in the sports but were really unsure what to do..she was just a tad under 12..turned 14th at the last race at the 'glade..

One think we have never rec'ed ..and it is a case of friends not wanting to critique friends..is positive based feedback...."you pics suck" is not usefull at all:D ..

As mentioned , I think she is getting better but I want to gently push (lead ??) her toward better

I like your tip...we will try it out this winter..

Ian.

grassy · November 30, 2007

One of the things were were looking for was a faster / longer lens..so many many of our events take place is cruddy weather...we quickly learned that to move up, I would have to start selling body parts

but it was suggested to me that our ist-ds was almost 3 years old.., the technology has come a long way and maybe a new body was in order ..I know camera brands can be a "religious" thing to some

but having a stack of legacy and current pentax lens narrowed my serch..The K10 seems to be best for the buck but I am glancing at the d40 especially isince it took a major drop in price this week.. any comments..

Now to give back..I rec'ed this advice from a pro potographer that I like ..

However, I would recommend reading, and re-reading this article on sportshooter.com: http://www.sportsshooter.com/news_story.html?id=1127
And..
to check out Simon Cudby's work which is shown in the Motocross Illustrated books (vol 1 and 2):

http://www.amazon.com/American-Motocross-Illustrated-Davey-Coombs/dp/0972644105/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196340153&sr=8-4

grassy · November 30, 2007

mercphoto wrote:

And yes, internally focusing lenses are $$$ but well worth the cost. Quality glass is worth every penny, especially if you are photographing for profit.

Thanks. What we have tried to do is figure out where we are going to shoot then set the filter. Doesn't always work.

We shoot for fun but Sarah makes some spending money with it and had some exposure with newspapers, etc..

My son races so we try to keep the expenses down however, I really want her to take this amazing hobby into the future.

Ian.

gsgary · November 30, 2007

Yes i do, I use a 1D and 300F2.8L and a 10D and 19-35mm and 580ex flash looking at getting a wider lens next year, i love using the 300 i can really fill the frame with it, slow shutter with flash look great but don't sell very well but i shoot them because i like them.
here's a few with the 300mm and 19-35

300

300

19-35 + flash @ 1/60

1/80

grassy · November 30, 2007

Gary,

Excellent...I love being about to see the eyes. I love doing roost..sarah not so much...here is a link with tons of it..

http://yamigrl.smugmug.com/gallery/3027804/1/164589094

Oh, and we chop off body parts as well...here is a pic...I was facinated how the tire was reacting to the hole...

On question..my daughter and I have flogged this one around alot.....we have an external af360 flash.. by using the flash, aren't you distracting the riders at best and possibly blinding them at worst..and how to you get the flash to recycle fast enought if you are going to take 3 or 4 pics in a continous mode ?

Thanks

mercphoto · November 30, 2007

grassy wrote:

On question..my daughter and I have flogged this one around alot.....we have an external af360 flash.. by using the flash, aren't you distracting the riders at best and possibly blinding them at worst..and how to you get the flash to recycle fast enought if you are going to take 3 or 4 pics in a continous mode ?

Does it blind them? No. They won't even notice it. To get it to recycle fast enough see two different parts of my long post to you. One is to get an external battery pack for the flash. Not all flash units will accept this, usually only the higher-end ones do. In lack of that use the highest capacity rechargables you can find. And, don't burst (i.e. do not use continuous mode). Shoot deliberately, not as a machine gun.

grassy · November 30, 2007

We figured that..non- continous mode that is..

I am suprised with the other comment..don't you notice in a lot of your pics, the rider is staring at you ? Or would you only use the flash when the bike is above you ?

Ian.

gsgary · December 2, 2007

grassy wrote:

We figured that..non- continous mode that is..

I am suprised with the other comment..don't you notice in a lot of your pics, the rider is staring at you ? Or would you only use the flash when the bike is above you ?

Ian.

I have been told by the riders they don't notice the flash

grassy · December 2, 2007

gsgary wrote:

I have been told by the riders they don't notice the flash

then we shall try it.

Thanks
Ian.

cmphotoworks · December 5, 2007

grassy wrote:

Harvy...think you have that directory mis-labeled..wasn't that the MXdN in September...you pics look like they were taken on Saturday..less drunks around the fence..great pivs BTW. I saw that largest lens ever there...and what did you think of the guy with the chainsaw ?

If you want to see some MXdN pics, go here www.cmphotoworks.com i put up about 150 pics, still sorting and editing some.

mercphoto · December 5, 2007

My racing portfolio, including motocross and karts:
http://mercphoto.smugmug.com/gallery/303316#30846560

wxwax · December 10, 2007

grassy wrote:

However, I would recommend reading, and re-reading this article on sportshooter.com: [/size]http://www.sportsshooter.com/news_story.html?id=1127

Excellent link. One tip surprised me: shooting backlit to simplify busy backgrounds. I'll have to experiment with that.

j-bo · December 13, 2007

This is always suggested and I usually down play it!

One thing that makes racing pix look better is a slower shutter speed on the panning shots..Something that will show the wheels spinning but still keep most of the rider in focus

They look nice to other photographers, but riders for some reason or another, just don't buy these types of shots. YMMV! I enjoy them, but I'm not buyin!

MX is a tough sell. Mom/Pop and anyone else with a P&S thinks it's easy. Riders don't really care too much about quality if the price is free!

Good Luck!

A couple of mine:

Anyone here do MX photography ???

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