Shooting for free to practice
Raphy
Registered Users Posts: 431 Major grins
Just wanted your opinions: What is the general concensus on shooting for free and giving the people the right to your photos?... Let me explain.
I'm just starting out and have A LOT to learn... I want to go to as many different places and practice... concerts, tournaments, wedding, etc...
If I was to contact the management for a...let's say a kickboxing tournament... would it be wise to get acces to the event as a photographer, but then give the organization the digital photos to use. I assume if they're good enough, they'd use them for adversising, posters, flyers, etc.
Am I diging a hole here ? If so, how would I ever get into a kickboxing tournament without having something to offer the organization? :dunno
I don't particularly mind if they would use my photos... but I guess i should have something written that I could equally use the photos for personal use or for profit.... :deal :scratch
Enlighten me please :huh
I'm just starting out and have A LOT to learn... I want to go to as many different places and practice... concerts, tournaments, wedding, etc...
If I was to contact the management for a...let's say a kickboxing tournament... would it be wise to get acces to the event as a photographer, but then give the organization the digital photos to use. I assume if they're good enough, they'd use them for adversising, posters, flyers, etc.
Am I diging a hole here ? If so, how would I ever get into a kickboxing tournament without having something to offer the organization? :dunno
I don't particularly mind if they would use my photos... but I guess i should have something written that I could equally use the photos for personal use or for profit.... :deal :scratch
Enlighten me please :huh
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How about....
no, No and NO!
That's my opinion - learn thru some local field sports that you can just go and shoot - your local town festivals, concerst, shows, etc.
By giving your work away for free, it does nothing but hurt all photographers and the industry in general - think about the guys that are shooting some of these events as their livelyhood. And on top of that, if your just learning do you really want to show and offer your images to these events for use when in all reality they will look like crap!?
Practice out on your own and learn until you are good enough to SELL your images to these events.
You asked!
Michael
OK, but if you're shooting these events for a living, then you are getting paid no matter who else is taking photos... This must mean you got "access" to these events from someone that hired you to take them...otherwise, you wouldn't be there taking pictures..and would be in my spot figuring out how to get access to these events to practice
If my images are crap, then I wouldn't expect them to use my images for anything... so if they are good, i don't mind, if they are bad..they probably won't use them...
This is good advice
Thanks for your response Michael ... it definately has got me thinking... curious where others stand on this ....
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But IMHO, asking you to do or not do something because it might negatively effect other photographers is bull shit. That's what competition is all about. If I want someone to pay me to do a task someone else is prepared to do for free, I had damn sure better do it a LOT better.
I think you should ABSOLUTELY not give your work away for nothing unless that's all it's worth. Once you tell someone you'll do something for them for free, you're not likely to ever get them to pay for anything else you might do for them. How 'bout this. Tell them you'll shot the event for free, and if they like the images, you'll license them for a reasonable charge. If they don't like them and won't pay, they wouldn't have used them anyway. You would have had your practice session, but not given your images away.
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
I got a digital camera and just started shooting. Because I was on a college campus there are lots of athletic events to shoot. If you dont go to the big money drawing ones, you can easily take your camera to shoot the "olympic sports" and get some practice.
I was approached about shooting for the athletics department, they offered money. I said yes.
Looking back I am so glad I didnt do anything silly like give them the photos for free, because then they would expect all photograhpers to give them photos for free, making it harder for photograhpers to even cover you know food, lights, rent and the cost of their equipment.
I think most photograhpers would understand that starting out you are not going to charge alot, I didnt and for some of the people I ran into when shooting, many of them said, thats fine as long as you charge something!!!
So the moral of the story is dont give your stuff away for free, there are lots of events that you can shoot for nothing. And to pass on the advice that was given to me, make sure you charge something.
Oh and if you want know where you can be in four years just look at these:
Keep on shooting!
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
Now....How do you guys feel about volunteering as a photographer ? For an online music magazine, for example... in form of payment, they offer you swag, concert tickets, Cd's, and publication of photos, etc.
Is that much different!? Isnt this how many photogs start out ?
Again, thanks for all the feedback you guys rock !!!!!!
BTW Icebear - this is really good stuff !!:
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Too late... got hitched this september
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Schwag = not free
Not free = different from free
GET ATTRIBUTION
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
"But IMHO, asking you to do or not do something because it might negatively effect other photographers is bull shit. That's what competition is all about. If I want someone to pay me to do a task someone else is prepared to do for free, I had damn sure better do it a LOT better."
How about I come down to your place of employment and tell your boss I'll do your job for free? - No different.
Just something to think about.
ask this question on a forum where most of the people are shooting for money - PT or FT and you'll get your a$$ handed to you on a silver platter - bottom line is DO NOT give your work away for free unless it is family and friends. Down the road when you become a better photographer (hopefully) everyone WILL EXPECT that your photos are free...and why not, that is the value you placed on your time and work in the past!
Do yourself a favor and practice until your good enought to sell your work....and not until!
Michael
I see your point... and you are totally right... swag does not equal free... and Attribution is definite in this case !
thanks!
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Nice!
So the value of your work is....?? $0.00 your time....?? $0.00 your equipment...? $0.00
Can you come and shoot and event for me? I'll pay you what your worth
It's just my opinion, but anyone that is giving away their photos for FREE just to gain access to an event is CRAZY. Personally I would rather not shoot the event at all.
Now of course there are alway exceptions to this on a case by case basis, but in "general" I would never do it.
Do I or have I given photos away for free - sure (personal use only), but commercial use - No way - NEVER!
Michael
I still give a pictures away for free, but they’re generally to my friends and family(my personal choice) and I got some pro’s pissed off at me once. I just figured that the pro’s should have done a better job since he had the advantage (location, strobes, etc) and I didn’t break any rules by shooting in the stands while watching a kid’s hockey game since cameras were allowed. No matter what anyone tells you, it’s your choice.
There is no reason why you need to go to big event to learn how to shoot it. Start with smaller… Go to a kickboxing class, take photos at your party at your house, find a local garage band and shoot them. Send word through your friends that you want to shoot any events (no event to small). Pick a high school sport that isn’t photograph very much… College sports is another good choice. And if it’s a bigger event, don’t forget to check the event allows cameras and the rules. Even if there is a pro there, you can still shoot (depending on the contacts and rules). With your gear list, I think you’re going to find that you’ll have many issues with indoor shots, and especially low light action shots. And don’t forget that there are many free events out there.
Why would they give you access? You have no portfolio, you’re not paying for the right to be there, and you’re not giving them a kickback. In general, you’re like any GWC (guy/gal with camera). And they’re everywhere these days. What makes you special? What makes you stand out?
I don’t you are digging a hole; you asked a question that most GWC are thinking about these days. They want (and think) that they can shoot the big events and grab the cover shots without the skills and knowledge required. It takes time, practice (and good equipment) to become very good.
It’s easy, but you’re not going to like the answer… It takes hard work and time. You need to get your work out there and show people the frames that you’re proud of. Get the word out through friends/family. Basically, work at it, make contacts and make friends. Who knows? Someday, someone might just hire you for a job.
But then again, I’m nothing but an enlighten GWC
Good luck, have fun, and keep on shooting!
How about I come down to your place of employment and tell your boss I'll do your job for free? - No different.
Just something to think about.
Michael[/quote]
Sure. Come on down and ask. I'm not worried. You can't DO my job. And if you could, you wouldn't do it for free. That's really my point. Why in the world should anyone expect to get paid for something if someone else can do it for free. We as photographers get paid because we produce a product that the consumer needs but can't get for free.
Most of my designer/architect/builder clients who hire me to do their architectural photography own nice cameras. They've tried to do their own photography, and aren't happy with the results. Anybody can buy a camera and push the button.
Read this carefully before you get your knickers in a knot. If someone can legitimately produce your product for free, you don't deserve to get paid for it.
I'm done.
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
That's interesting... but let's say at this point in time, where I'm just learning and want the practice... sure why not....it would be great practice for me.... I have nothing to lose...i donno, maybe i'm nuts, but that's the way I see it... Let's say my work is worth $0 at the moment becasue i'm just learning and let's say my photos are crap..... so i'm really having trouble understanding why giving away my crappy practice shots, that are worth nothing (at least to me, since this is just practice), to someone is not a good thing...
If I get better, next time they want me to shoot an event, i'll say..well, this this time i'll have to charge you $____ or i'm not gonna shoot.
and if someone chooses to use my photos, chances are they're not going to even credit me for tehm... ie i won't be associated with the crappy photos... lol.... but i guess this may lead into trouble with my name being associated with crappy photos is they DO decide to credit the photos....
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Never . . . ever . . . ever . . . let anyone see your culls. And be brutal with yourself. If you aren't proud of it, let no one see it.
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
I'm just asking casue i'm trying to understand this and becasue i'm new to this stuff and want to just keep shooting and practicing in as many places as possible (and not all possible places have free access that allow you to 1. take photos, 2. bring 3 lenses, and 3. give you a good spot)
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oh you posted this the same time as me, that sounds like a great solution. That way they dont have to pay for photos if they are crap, but if they are good they should pay reasonable price. Then all parties are winners.
Point taken
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Or what if he doesnt want to marry my brother :-P
Anytime you start talking about money, folks are going to have strong opinoins. It's all good, and in the end, you have to decide how everyone's opinions fit into your own value system.
As a rule, any time my work is going to help someone make money, I damn sure want a slice of it. And that's a chisled-in-stone principle.
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
I completely agree and was going to post the same comment. I don't do "jobs for free" since I'm still working on my skills - but I take my camera everywhere. Parties, outdoor events, concerts, every event I go to. I practice settings, how to get the picture I want with the gear I have (not always possible).
However, I never say to someone "if you let me come to your even, I'll take pictures for you". The problem I see with that line is that they are then EXPECTING you to have "pro" images, expecting you to give them away, and expecting a LOT of them.
I upload pictures from the events, but only the good pictures. Sometimes it might be as few as 2 images, but I'm doing it for me and no-one else. The people involved at the even get an email such as "hey, I uploaded some pics from your party, check them out".
Sometimes people get upset "why not dont you upload all of them? they can't be that bad" but I don't want to tarnish MY NAME with bad images - either should you. Even if you don't get "credit", the people you gave the pictures to will remember that you were the guy who took the lousy photos. They won't ask you back, especially if you are charging the next time.
Its really a "first impressions" kind of thing.
Dont sweat it mate. I bet there are people in the world that eat marzipan also & personally i feel they should be sent to a remote island for ever. Its about what you want to do in your life & not what others expect you to do. If we were to do the expectations of others then our lives are worthless.
Thats how I sort of started doing weddings, I just showed up with my camera and after a couple of my friends came out with horrible photos, two different studios ended up offering to print mine up for free. Now I just do their weddings outright, but even for that I charge them (about half what I should be because they are my friends, but its also alot of work and I dont want these people getting used to free photos all the time).
Thanks so much guys for all the feedback !!!!!!!
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Hello,
When I started out shooting sports photography it was for high school cross country and track and field events. Cross Country is the easiest because there are lots of good vantage points whether you have exclusive aceess or not. Track and field and soccer many times is the same way. If you know someone in the school system....a coach, a student, a parent, etc - you can always pull strings to get on the sidelines as a photographer.
If you already have a website or photography business name you can make up a Press/Media Identification Card. Many times this authenticates you enough that you can get in to high school events. As you build your reputation you will be able to gain access to many bigger events. I started out in high school running sports and now cover many ACC Sporting events and have had 12 publications in national magazines this year. I covered the ACC Indoor Track and Field Championships in 2007...will again this year and many more. I also now shoot for scrunners.com (milesplit affiliate) who partners with Runners World Magazine.
I don't mention all of these things to toot my own horn but only to say I started right where you are. Practice and patience will get you far.
DO NOT GIVE YOUR PHOTOS AWAY. If they are good enough for publication they are good enough to sell.
Blessings,
Keith
I do sports pictures and got into the game because of my daughter. The first year I did her team pictures before I did smugmug and only charged the parents for the DVD at the end of the season (for the cost of the DVDs). I have already had 3 complaints this year that my prices are too high and they are 10% of my normal prices ($.50 for a 4x6) and 5% goes to the local club. The 2 parents who ordered were impressed that the pictures turned out better than Snapfish where I posted them last year and were the only 2 that did not complain. These are the same people who want me to crop and do other stuff.
The rest of the teams from the local club get a 50% discount and are happy with the photos and all the rest of the clubs are thrilled.
Practice on your own and only allow the good photos out.
Brian
http://photos.katzclix.com
blog - http://blog.katzclix.com
You need to get a press pass as a freelance photographer. Often you need to show previous work, but others have advised how you might do this otherwise. Once in , just shoot and enjoy your photos. Heck, maybe the local paper will buy a few.
Your camera equipment costs money, charging your batteries costs money, digital storage costs money, websites cost money, even that lens cloth to wipe off your lens costs money. And how do you get to the event? Oh yeah, that costs money too.
In other words, you are paying money to shoot the event for "free". So your goal should be to at least recover your expenses by selling some of the photos that you spent money to shoot.
Portland, Oregon Photographer Pete Springer
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