It seems you are confusing the ability to shoot events with having someone pay you to do so. That often isnt the case...many photographers at events are freelance, they are paid for great shots, not for their time.
You need to get a press pass as a freelance photographer. Often you need to show previous work, but others have advised how you might do this otherwise. Once in , just shoot and enjoy your photos. Heck, maybe the local paper will buy a few.
You are right... I don't want to get paid for photos...at least not yet..i'm not even close to being that good. I do, however, want in.... not to a major event, just something as simple as a kickboxing tournament where photography from the bleachers isn't allowed and if i was granted access, i could freely move around the rink to take the photos.
I guess i should start scouting around for passes 1st before i decide to sign my life away by giving my photos for free
I get $2.00 a piece for my 4 X 6 and some say I am too low for industry standards. I would not worry about the complainers and I learned not to discount my work even to my son's team. It seems that once I upped my price that my confidence to do so has actually increased the volume of units sold.
I agree with the preveious posted comment though... I freelance most of my events, hand out cards when authorized to do so and the really great shots sell every time. Also, parents who are looking for documentation of that one event are always repeat customers.
The first year I shot I did the same DVD thing and I had some reluctance the next year when I went to SmugMug. But, your time and effort are worth something. Those complainers don't buy your flash cards, your cameras, or spend the hours that you do enhancing photos on your computer. When you value your work so will those looking at the pics.
You just have to find your own standard of practice and it will all fall in to place.
I do sports pictures and got into the game because of my daughter. The first year I did her team pictures before I did smugmug and only charged the parents for the DVD at the end of the season (for the cost of the DVDs). I have already had 3 complaints this year that my prices are too high and they are 10% of my normal prices ($.50 for a 4x6) and 5% goes to the local club. The 2 parents who ordered were impressed that the pictures turned out better than Snapfish where I posted them last year and were the only 2 that did not complain. These are the same people who want me to crop and do other stuff.
The rest of the teams from the local club get a 50% discount and are happy with the photos and all the rest of the clubs are thrilled.
Practice on your own and only allow the good photos out.
"The opportunity of a lifetime must be responded to in the lifetime of the opportunity"
Practice all you want...but don't give it away
Practice all you want but don't give it away. Once you do that you actually create a problem for yourself. People will know that you are newer at it and they will try to negotiate you down and it will be harder for you to gain momentum to fair prices.
While I am building to open a studio, I found that I had to also find a monetary value for my time. Time spent away from actually making money which pays for my hobby. The cost of paper, computers, software, lenses, electricity, compact flash and all other things photographically related to being a professional. Hundreds and thousands of dollars. What about the cost of things like gear insurance and education - I know I've been to lots of seminars and workshops - none of it free.
So just because you can buy a print for a buck or download a digital file for nothing doesn't mean you don't have financial outlay. If you make it free, then it's worthless. Don't discount your knowledge. Share your product and if it's valued then the price will be well worth the cost to the receiver.
Missed the.....
Gus - you missed the - over the net it means take it lightly!
as I stated in my first post - it's all my opinion, but still whoever is giving away their work for someone else to use commercial to make money - It's that photographer putting the $0.00 value on their work - not me!
Man,
I won't touch this comment with a 10 foot pole - I'll let someone else dig the grave for you! I'll add a few just to make sure people don't get offended with my comment, but there is no way in the world would I make some sort of fake ID/Media Card to try and get into an event - even a HS sporting event. I is alway BEST and easiest to contact the event director, HS AD or whoever and ask permission or find out the requirement to photograph the event. There are requirement in place for a specific reason, plus it will look better for you if you ask first and shoot later as opposed to shooting first and being asked later to take your photos down.
Hello,
If you already have a website or photography business name you can make
up a Press/Media Identification Card. Many times this authenticates you enough that you can get in to high school events.
Blessings,
Keith
I get $2.00 a piece for my 4 X 6 and some say I am too low for industry standards. I would not worry about the complainers and I learned not to discount my work even to my son's team. It seems that once I upped my price that my confidence to do so has actually increased the volume of units sold.
I agree with the preveious posted comment though... I freelance most of my events, hand out cards when authorized to do so and the really great shots sell every time. Also, parents who are looking for documentation of that one event are always repeat customers.
The first year I shot I did the same DVD thing and I had some reluctance the next year when I went to SmugMug. But, your time and effort are worth something. Those complainers don't buy your flash cards, your cameras, or spend the hours that you do enhancing photos on your computer. When you value your work so will those looking at the pics.
You just have to find your own standard of practice and it will all fall in to place.
KD
KD -
You are so right. I charge 4.99 for 4 x 6 and do quite well from all other teams and next spring I wil up the cost to my daughter's team since they do not seem to want to buy anything anyway.
It was hard setting a price originally - started at 1.99 upped it to 2.99 and then 3.99 before settling on 4.99 and everyone who orders is thrilled.
I think about it as bartering with the event organizers rather than shooting for free. Personally, I'd never offer someone an original resolution digital file without a contract of some sort, but I'd definitely trade a limited number of web resolution files and/or prints for access to a venue.
That said, there are a couple of limits on that policy:
If I don't need access I don't give anything away.
If I am giving gifts, I am shooting at my convenience not theirs.
Just wanted your opinions: What is the general concensus on shooting for free and giving the people the right to your photos?... Let me explain.
I'm just starting out and have A LOT to learn... I want to go to as many different places and practice... concerts, tournaments, wedding, etc...
If I was to contact the management for a...let's say a kickboxing tournament... would it be wise to get acces to the event as a photographer, but then give the organization the digital photos to use. I assume if they're good enough, they'd use them for adversising, posters, flyers, etc.
Am I diging a hole here ? If so, how would I ever get into a kickboxing tournament without having something to offer the organization?
I don't particularly mind if they would use my photos... but I guess i should have something written that I could equally use the photos for personal use or for profit....
Enlighten me please
Raphy, I completely understand the delima you are facing and I figured I'd share my two cents.
I"ve read a number of posts similar to yours and the responses are usually the same...don't give anything away for free. Given the supply and demand of photographers in the world...every single one of them should be screaming that. You giving your shots away for free (even if they're crap) is akin to the cheap labor that sits just south of the Texas border. Your a threat to the guys that are trying to make a living.
My opinion on the matter....so what...that's what the free market is all about. You need to do what is best for you and not worry about what your "competition" thinks.
Almost everyone mentions the preverbial "hole" that you'll have to dig your self out of if you start off giving your prints away. This is, in my opinion, a short term perspective on the situation. If your serious about photography and believe that it's something that you want to incorporate, or even make, into your life, then that "hole" will disappear as the demand for your talent increases. It's that simple. It's a pattern that is evident in nearly every other artistic genre and it applys to photographers as well.
While money should certainly be a concern to you at some point it sounds like you are a ways away from it being a real issue. Most of the photographers / artists I respect and admire spent years...YEARS...investing in themselves...before they took a dime from anyone.
From a business perspective, the barrier to entry for photography is almost non exisitent...which is a good and bad thing. It means lots of product that isn't always that high of quality. How do you stand out in a market like this? One way is to invest in quality...be the very best or close to it and people will beat a path to your door with cash in hand.
Invest in your self until your confident that your quality stands above the muck...then, and only then, you can decide when and how to "flip" the "open for business" sign on.
Peace.
Focusing on Event, Portrait, and Humanitarian Work.... www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Gus - you missed the - over the net it means take it lightly!
as I stated in my first post - it's all my opinion, but still whoever is giving away their work for someone else to use commercial to make money - It's that photographer putting the $0.00 value on their work - not me!
Michael
The smile is insignificant if the words are insulting. The original poster is looking for input from ALL people...not just those that sell. If we had a forum that was all one sided then we would have a dictatorship & not a forum. If someone happens to be 180 degrees out to your way of thinking then accept that & dont reply with innuendo that you will 'pay me what im worth'
NEVER Stated Make A Fake!!!!!!
I never stated anyone should make a "Fake Media Card." That is an absolute NO NO. What I said was to make an Identification Card that would IDENTIFY you as a photographer. Once one has permission (Always Get Permission) to be in this authenticates you on the field so people know that you are not just some jack leg taking pictures of their children.
Michael is absolutly right.... Sorry if I gave the impression that one should make a fake card - Absolutly not my position.
Man,
I won't touch this comment with a 10 foot pole - I'll let someone else dig the grave for you! I'll add a few just to make sure people don't get offended with my comment, but there is no way in the world would I make some sort of fake ID/Media Card to try and get into an event - even a HS sporting event. I is alway BEST and easiest to contact the event director, HS AD or whoever and ask permission or find out the requirement to photograph the event. There are requirement in place for a specific reason, plus it will look better for you if you ask first and shoot later as opposed to shooting first and being asked later to take your photos down.
again just my opinion,
Michael
"The opportunity of a lifetime must be responded to in the lifetime of the opportunity"
Man,
I won't touch this comment with a 10 foot pole - I'll let someone else dig the grave for you! I'll add a few just to make sure people don't get offended with my comment, but there is no way in the world would I make some sort of fake ID/Media Card to try and get into an event - even a HS sporting event. I is alway BEST and easiest to contact the event director, HS AD or whoever and ask permission or find out the requirement to photograph the event. There are requirement in place for a specific reason, plus it will look better for you if you ask first and shoot later as opposed to shooting first and being asked later to take your photos down.
again just my opinion,
Michael
"The opportunity of a lifetime must be responded to in the lifetime of the opportunity"
You are so right. I charge 4.99 for 4 x 6 and do quite well from all other teams and next spring I wil up the cost to my daughter's team since they do not seem to want to buy anything anyway.
It was hard setting a price originally - started at 1.99 upped it to 2.99 and then 3.99 before settling on 4.99 and everyone who orders is thrilled.
Here are my prices for the following:
(1) 4x6 $10
(1) 5x7 $14
(1) 8x12 $22
(1) 11x14 $35
(1) 12x18 $45
(1) 20x30 $90
(1) 12x36 $90
(1) 12x24 $65
(1) high res image $50
add shipping and tax and Paypal fee
For you that sell your 4x6's for $5 or less. You are nuts!!!
I work way to hard to give my work away.
And if you are going to ask. Yes I have some people complain about the prices but that is the way it is.
Over XXXX photos sold this year.
If you want practice and you want eager buyers, go to local jr varsity and freshman HS games. The varsity games usually/sometimes get covered by the HS who pays a photographer. The jr varsity doesn't. I shot a HS freshman football game of a team my brother coachs on. I was there just to get for grins and giggles. I have made about $100 by putting those pics in a gallery, and I am getting sales from the other team that I didn't even hand out my card to those parents. I have been suprised at the pictures that have been purchased.
As you've seen, there are many different views on this subject.
I personally think what your asking can only be answered by you.
I have, till now had the good sense to avoid this type of subject on-line, but I'm feeling a little goofy today, so here it goes..................
I'll try and be long on thought, short on typing.
It's like most things in life: It's a perspective thing.
I am a professional photographer. To me, (and the IRS) this means that I make over 50% of my income from photography (not: if I have a smugmug PRO account). For me, I make 100% of my living from photography.
Now that that's out in the open, we will be able to see which side of the "fence" that I'm on. Which fence is this you ask? It's either being a hobby photographer or someone who just makes a little on the side with it ---- other side ---- someone who relies completely on the income generated from photography for those things in life that we sometimes think are important, like food, house payments, vehicles, etc...
Like any job, there are things to gripe about. Photography is no different. If your a PRO, the hobby shooters WILL give you something to legitimately gripe about. That's just part of the gig. It's not going to change, so learn to gripe about it and go on with life.
If your a hobby shooter that wants to become a PRO, do what YOU think you need to do and can live with.
I LIKE to retain the right to gripe about stuff! That's one reason I didn't ever give my work away. I wanted to be able to gripe about the ones who do.
Same for voting: If you don't vote, to me you don't have the right to gripe about the outcome. (but that's a whole different topic)
From a PRO side of the fence, it's much akin to say, if you were a carpenter working on building a house. Along comes (and endless supply) of people that just like building stuff. They offer to build for free! Great for your boss, great for them (they get to do their hobby and get better), but not so great for you. Due to this the job will get done much faster, therefore you're out of a paying job a LOT sooner. --- It seriously affected your income.
Now, should that matter to the hobbyist. I don't think so, (until he/she becomes a professional carpenter & changes to the other side of the fence), he/she is doing what they want/need to do. It's life.............
As to the: If someone can do it as good as you, you don't deserve...
I doubt those kind of statements come from FULL TIME photogs. When you go through all the hoops to get credentialed, purchase all the expensive gear, make the contract obligations to be there no matter what, the time and effort to set up/tear down, pay for your fuel, work long hours processing pictures, etc... Then, someone just wanting to practice, comes in without burden of all these things and gives away pics :cry
Sure, my pics are better than theirs, but there are a lot of people who will buy the cheapest (free is cheapest). Walmart comes to mind here... For every picture that is not sold (that statistically would have been) due to someone giving pictures away, well, yep, I'm gonna gripe about it.
Now, if I didn't have an exclusive clause, and another photog came in and we were selling head to head and he takes most of my business. Then I'd better look at my product a little harder, I have now created that issue.
Now, get on with life --- do what you need to do!
Just remember where you are on the perspective wheel
Randy - Great post
I wholeheartedly agree with most of what you say, but can't let a couple things alone (Sorry everybody )
You said "From a PRO side of the fence, it's much akin to say, if you were a carpenter working on building a house. Along comes (and endless supply) of people that just like building stuff. They offer to build for free! Great for your boss, great for them (they get to do their hobby and get better), but not so great for you. Due to this the job will get done much faster, therefore you're out of a paying job a LOT sooner. --- It seriously affected your income."
See, I don't think that's a problem, cause the walls wouldn't be plumb, the windows wouldn't go up and down smoothly, the local building inspector would have a conniption over the crappy work, and other tradesmen would refuse to work on the job for fear of being blamed for the effups.
You said "As to the: If someone can do it as good as you, you don't deserve... - I doubt those kind of statements come from FULL TIME photogs. When you go through all the hoops to get credentialed, purchase all the expensive gear, make the contract obligations to be there no matter what, the time and effort to set up/tear down, pay for your fuel, work long hours processing pictures, etc..."
I was the one who said that, and while I do have other sources of income, most of my earned income IS from photography. I don't say that to argue, only to legitimize my point. Our clients don't pay us for our education, equipment, hard work, credentials, insurance, or whatever our CODB is. They pay us as little as they can for a product they can use. If they can get for free, THEY SHOULD. Doing otherwise is stupid business practice.
You said "Sure, my pics are better than theirs, but there are a lot of people who will buy the cheapest"
Well yeah! They aren't our market, are they.
You said "Now, get on with life --- do what you need to do!"
Damn right. Lets make money 'cause we're better. And you are absolutely right. Where you sit determines what you see.
John :
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
I'll give one retort on this subject. It is my opinion, I wasn't trying to change yours, I was responding to the OP.
<<< You said "From a PRO side of the fence, it's much akin to say, if you were a carpenter working on building a house. Along comes (and endless supply) of people that just like building stuff. They offer to build for free! Great for your boss, great for them (they get to do their hobby and get better), but not so great for you. Due to this the job will get done much faster, therefore you're out of a paying job a LOT sooner. --- It seriously affected your income."
See, I don't think that's a problem, cause the walls wouldn't be plumb, the windows wouldn't go up and down smoothly, the local building inspector would have a conniption over the crappy work, and other tradesmen would refuse to work on the job for fear of being blamed for the effups. >>>
That's exactly the problem!
I see it on a regular basis. Someone comes in and tries to undercut your pricing. Yes, they have an inferior product, but a certain percentage of people will buy the cheapest thing. Walmart sound familiar again?
Now, what happens is this hobby shooter gets tired of all the work that is really required to do this on an ongoing schedule. It's cold, they won't be there, it's hot, they wont be there... get the picture?
Now there gone, but, their damage is not. Your customers are now bitchin' at you about your prices, the same prices they were satisfied with before you know who showed up. Prices that are more than fair for the quality of photographs offered. They don't care about all the "binding contract stuff, all the expensive equipment that you use to make quality photographs for them to purchase, all the setup/teardown time and effort.
They don't care! They just know joe blow was shooting pictures and selling them (if not giving them away) real cheap.
Now, you've got to decide if it's even worth the headache to keep shooting this gig....Oh wait, your bound by that contract! And your a professional, so you HAVE to stay and put up with the grief.
:soapbox
<<< You said "As to the: If someone can do it as good as you, you don't deserve... - I doubt those kind of statements come from FULL TIME photogs. When you go through all the hoops to get credentialed, purchase all the expensive gear, make the contract obligations to be there no matter what, the time and effort to set up/tear down, pay for your fuel, work long hours processing pictures, etc..."
I was the one who said that, and while I do have other sources of income, most of my earned income IS from photography. I don't say that to argue, only to legitimize my point. Our clients don't pay us for our education, equipment, hard work, credentials, insurance, or whatever our CODB is. They pay us as little as they can for a product they can use. If they can get for free, THEY SHOULD. Doing otherwise is stupid business practice. >>>
Well, see there --- that's where we think differently.
When a business/organization credentials you, or gives you a contract and you have an exclusivity clause in it, then they let joe blow come in and undercut your business, that's not smart business, THAT'S STUPID AND UNETHICAL!!!!!
I think I understand where some of our (you and me) different perspectives arise. I get the impression you shoot events, whereas I shoot things. It's not very likely that there's some other shooter trying to photograph the same kitchen or foyer that I am. The thought of an architect even giving someone the time of day who calls his office and offers to shoot a project for free is laughable. Don't happen.
If you're the OP on an event, every Tom, Dick, and Sally can try to horn in, I guess.
Your point about a client violating a contract is spot on. That's not what I was referring to though. That's after the fact. My point was simply that it is the right and duty of any business person to minimize his CODB. Establish quality standards, then pay as little as you can to meet those standards.
You've got me thinking though. I think I need to raise my pricing structure. I don't get any whining about the cost of my work.
John :
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
Thanks so much for everyone pitching in their opinion... i didn't know this was going to open up a can of whoopass.... So many different views ... I ultimately have to decide what I think is right... your comments have definately helped me think this stuff through a lot deeper.
I volunteer my services to friends and family. If your good, they will give you money and will value your skill and time.
I felt bad at first for taking photos for my son's baseball league for free. Untill I saw what the "Pro" was shooting was crap. I had lots of doors open because of this.
Recently I shot for a special needs student event for free. I got with the pro that was set up and talked to him. He had lots of expensive equipment and there was no way I could compete with him. He was charging lots of money for each photo and rightfully so. He was very good. He was so nice he offered his speed light equipment for my use for free. Although I didn't use it (I didn't know how to set it up), I was great to see him step up.
I shoot for free on softball games mostly, all for practice. It's win-win for both sides and there's no one else shooting it. If there was, it's on them, afterall it's not like post offices started sueing "the internet" because free mail became available. Have to adapt to the environment, competition and times.
But IMHO, asking you to do or not do something because it might negatively effect other photographers is bull shit. That's what competition is all about. If I want someone to pay me to do a task someone else is prepared to do for free, I had damn sure better do it a LOT better.
I think you should ABSOLUTELY not give your work away for nothing unless that's all it's worth. Once you tell someone you'll do something for them for free, you're not likely to ever get them to pay for anything else you might do for them.
Actually, there is a glut of photographers now that every one and their uncle has a digital camera and wants to practice. AND THEY WANT TO PRACTICE AND GIVE THE WORK AWAY. This has really hurt the market for all photographers. Look at the microstock - $1.00 for an image. Go look at Craigslist. When there is a lot of competition, the prices drop. People are not valuing the skill of great photography now since you can buy a decent P&S and get some fairly good images that way. They need to be educated as to what makes a good image. I have seen some pretty bad work coming from people who bought a camera for $500 and call themselves professional. That is their only investment in photography.:cry It gives the pros bad names because they don't have insurance, a true business, sometimes integrity or knowledge.
To get to the professional level, the best way to do it is to shoot it and charge at least for the finished product. But best to find venues, like your kids soccer or such that will allow you to shoot but without giving the work away and classes to practice and get better than the neighbor with the p&S with the 12x optical zoom and all the noise in their image.
Comments
You are right... I don't want to get paid for photos...at least not yet..i'm not even close to being that good. I do, however, want in.... not to a major event, just something as simple as a kickboxing tournament where photography from the bleachers isn't allowed and if i was granted access, i could freely move around the rink to take the photos.
I guess i should start scouting around for passes 1st before i decide to sign my life away by giving my photos for free
Facebook Page
Flickr
I agree with the preveious posted comment though... I freelance most of my events, hand out cards when authorized to do so and the really great shots sell every time. Also, parents who are looking for documentation of that one event are always repeat customers.
The first year I shot I did the same DVD thing and I had some reluctance the next year when I went to SmugMug. But, your time and effort are worth something. Those complainers don't buy your flash cards, your cameras, or spend the hours that you do enhancing photos on your computer. When you value your work so will those looking at the pics.
You just have to find your own standard of practice and it will all fall in to place.
KD
Practice all you want but don't give it away. Once you do that you actually create a problem for yourself. People will know that you are newer at it and they will try to negotiate you down and it will be harder for you to gain momentum to fair prices.
While I am building to open a studio, I found that I had to also find a monetary value for my time. Time spent away from actually making money which pays for my hobby. The cost of paper, computers, software, lenses, electricity, compact flash and all other things photographically related to being a professional. Hundreds and thousands of dollars. What about the cost of things like gear insurance and education - I know I've been to lots of seminars and workshops - none of it free.
So just because you can buy a print for a buck or download a digital file for nothing doesn't mean you don't have financial outlay. If you make it free, then it's worthless. Don't discount your knowledge. Share your product and if it's valued then the price will be well worth the cost to the receiver.
Flash Frozen Photography, Inc.
http://flashfrozenphotography.com
Gus - you missed the
as I stated in my first post - it's all my opinion, but still whoever is giving away their work for someone else to use commercial to make money - It's that photographer putting the $0.00 value on their work - not me!
Michael
I won't touch this comment with a 10 foot pole - I'll let someone else dig the grave for you! I'll add a few
again just my opinion,
Michael
You are so right. I charge 4.99 for 4 x 6 and do quite well from all other teams and next spring I wil up the cost to my daughter's team since they do not seem to want to buy anything anyway.
It was hard setting a price originally - started at 1.99 upped it to 2.99 and then 3.99 before settling on 4.99 and everyone who orders is thrilled.
Brian
http://photos.katzclix.com
blog - http://blog.katzclix.com
That said, there are a couple of limits on that policy:
If I don't need access I don't give anything away.
If I am giving gifts, I am shooting at my convenience not theirs.
Raphy, I completely understand the delima you are facing and I figured I'd share my two cents.
I"ve read a number of posts similar to yours and the responses are usually the same...don't give anything away for free. Given the supply and demand of photographers in the world...every single one of them should be screaming that. You giving your shots away for free (even if they're crap) is akin to the cheap labor that sits just south of the Texas border. Your a threat to the guys that are trying to make a living.
My opinion on the matter....so what...that's what the free market is all about. You need to do what is best for you and not worry about what your "competition" thinks.
Almost everyone mentions the preverbial "hole" that you'll have to dig your self out of if you start off giving your prints away. This is, in my opinion, a short term perspective on the situation. If your serious about photography and believe that it's something that you want to incorporate, or even make, into your life, then that "hole" will disappear as the demand for your talent increases. It's that simple. It's a pattern that is evident in nearly every other artistic genre and it applys to photographers as well.
While money should certainly be a concern to you at some point it sounds like you are a ways away from it being a real issue. Most of the photographers / artists I respect and admire spent years...YEARS...investing in themselves...before they took a dime from anyone.
From a business perspective, the barrier to entry for photography is almost non exisitent...which is a good and bad thing. It means lots of product that isn't always that high of quality. How do you stand out in a market like this? One way is to invest in quality...be the very best or close to it and people will beat a path to your door with cash in hand.
Invest in your self until your confident that your quality stands above the muck...then, and only then, you can decide when and how to "flip" the "open for business" sign on.
Peace.
www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
I never stated anyone should make a "Fake Media Card." That is an absolute NO NO. What I said was to make an Identification Card that would IDENTIFY you as a photographer. Once one has permission (Always Get Permission) to be in this authenticates you on the field so people know that you are not just some jack leg taking pictures of their children.
Michael is absolutly right.... Sorry if I gave the impression that one should make a fake card - Absolutly not my position.
KD
Reading back I see where my previous comment on Media ID was very easily misunderstood. Sorry,
KD
(1) 4x6 $10
(1) 5x7 $14
(1) 8x12 $22
(1) 11x14 $35
(1) 12x18 $45
(1) 20x30 $90
(1) 12x36 $90
(1) 12x24 $65
(1) high res image $50
add shipping and tax and Paypal fee
For you that sell your 4x6's for $5 or less. You are nuts!!!
I work way to hard to give my work away.
And if you are going to ask. Yes I have some people complain about the prices but that is the way it is.
Over XXXX photos sold this year.
Nikon D4, Nikon D3, Nikon D3
Nikon 14-24 f2.8, Nikon 24-70 f2.8, Nikon 70-200 f2.8 VR II, Nikon 50 f1.8, Nikon 85 f1.4
Nikon 300 f2.8 VR, Nikon 200-400 f4.0 VR II, Nikon 600 f4.0 II, TC-1.4, TC 1.7, TC 2.0
(1) SB-800, (2) SB-900, (4) Multi Max Pocket Wizards
As you've seen, there are many different views on this subject.
I personally think what your asking can only be answered by you.
I have, till now had the good sense to avoid this type of subject on-line, but I'm feeling a little goofy today, so here it goes..................
I'll try and be long on thought, short on typing.
It's like most things in life: It's a perspective thing.
I am a professional photographer. To me, (and the IRS) this means that I make over 50% of my income from photography (not: if I have a smugmug PRO account). For me, I make 100% of my living from photography.
Now that that's out in the open, we will be able to see which side of the "fence" that I'm on. Which fence is this you ask? It's either being a hobby photographer or someone who just makes a little on the side with it ---- other side ---- someone who relies completely on the income generated from photography for those things in life that we sometimes think are important, like food, house payments, vehicles, etc...
Like any job, there are things to gripe about. Photography is no different. If your a PRO, the hobby shooters WILL give you something to legitimately gripe about. That's just part of the gig. It's not going to change, so learn to gripe about it and go on with life.
If your a hobby shooter that wants to become a PRO, do what YOU think you need to do and can live with.
I LIKE to retain the right to gripe about stuff! That's one reason I didn't ever give my work away. I wanted to be able to gripe about the ones who do.
Same for voting: If you don't vote, to me you don't have the right to gripe about the outcome. (but that's a whole different topic)
From a PRO side of the fence, it's much akin to say, if you were a carpenter working on building a house. Along comes (and endless supply) of people that just like building stuff. They offer to build for free! Great for your boss, great for them (they get to do their hobby and get better), but not so great for you. Due to this the job will get done much faster, therefore you're out of a paying job a LOT sooner. --- It seriously affected your income.
Now, should that matter to the hobbyist. I don't think so, (until he/she becomes a professional carpenter & changes to the other side of the fence), he/she is doing what they want/need to do. It's life.............
As to the: If someone can do it as good as you, you don't deserve...
I doubt those kind of statements come from FULL TIME photogs. When you go through all the hoops to get credentialed, purchase all the expensive gear, make the contract obligations to be there no matter what, the time and effort to set up/tear down, pay for your fuel, work long hours processing pictures, etc... Then, someone just wanting to practice, comes in without burden of all these things and gives away pics :cry
Sure, my pics are better than theirs, but there are a lot of people who will buy the cheapest (free is cheapest). Walmart comes to mind here... For every picture that is not sold (that statistically would have been) due to someone giving pictures away, well, yep, I'm gonna gripe about it.
Now, if I didn't have an exclusive clause, and another photog came in and we were selling head to head and he takes most of my business. Then I'd better look at my product a little harder, I have now created that issue.
Now, get on with life --- do what you need to do!
Just remember where you are on the perspective wheel
Hope that helps,
I wholeheartedly agree with most of what you say, but can't let a couple things alone (Sorry everybody
You said "From a PRO side of the fence, it's much akin to say, if you were a carpenter working on building a house. Along comes (and endless supply) of people that just like building stuff. They offer to build for free! Great for your boss, great for them (they get to do their hobby and get better), but not so great for you. Due to this the job will get done much faster, therefore you're out of a paying job a LOT sooner. --- It seriously affected your income."
See, I don't think that's a problem, cause the walls wouldn't be plumb, the windows wouldn't go up and down smoothly, the local building inspector would have a conniption over the crappy work, and other tradesmen would refuse to work on the job for fear of being blamed for the effups.
You said "As to the: If someone can do it as good as you, you don't deserve... - I doubt those kind of statements come from FULL TIME photogs. When you go through all the hoops to get credentialed, purchase all the expensive gear, make the contract obligations to be there no matter what, the time and effort to set up/tear down, pay for your fuel, work long hours processing pictures, etc..."
I was the one who said that, and while I do have other sources of income, most of my earned income IS from photography. I don't say that to argue, only to legitimize my point. Our clients don't pay us for our education, equipment, hard work, credentials, insurance, or whatever our CODB is. They pay us as little as they can for a product they can use. If they can get for free, THEY SHOULD. Doing otherwise is stupid business practice.
You said "Sure, my pics are better than theirs, but there are a lot of people who will buy the cheapest"
Well yeah! They aren't our market, are they.
You said "Now, get on with life --- do what you need to do!"
Damn right. Lets make money 'cause we're better. And you are absolutely right. Where you sit determines what you see.
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
I'll give one retort on this subject. It is my opinion, I wasn't trying to change yours, I was responding to the OP.
<<< You said "From a PRO side of the fence, it's much akin to say, if you were a carpenter working on building a house. Along comes (and endless supply) of people that just like building stuff. They offer to build for free! Great for your boss, great for them (they get to do their hobby and get better), but not so great for you. Due to this the job will get done much faster, therefore you're out of a paying job a LOT sooner. --- It seriously affected your income."
See, I don't think that's a problem, cause the walls wouldn't be plumb, the windows wouldn't go up and down smoothly, the local building inspector would have a conniption over the crappy work, and other tradesmen would refuse to work on the job for fear of being blamed for the effups. >>>
That's exactly the problem!
I see it on a regular basis. Someone comes in and tries to undercut your pricing. Yes, they have an inferior product, but a certain percentage of people will buy the cheapest thing. Walmart sound familiar again?
Now, what happens is this hobby shooter gets tired of all the work that is really required to do this on an ongoing schedule. It's cold, they won't be there, it's hot, they wont be there... get the picture?
Now there gone, but, their damage is not. Your customers are now bitchin' at you about your prices, the same prices they were satisfied with before you know who showed up. Prices that are more than fair for the quality of photographs offered. They don't care about all the "binding contract stuff, all the expensive equipment that you use to make quality photographs for them to purchase, all the setup/teardown time and effort.
They don't care! They just know joe blow was shooting pictures and selling them (if not giving them away) real cheap.
Now, you've got to decide if it's even worth the headache to keep shooting this gig....Oh wait, your bound by that contract! And your a professional, so you HAVE to stay and put up with the grief.
:soapbox
<<< You said "As to the: If someone can do it as good as you, you don't deserve... - I doubt those kind of statements come from FULL TIME photogs. When you go through all the hoops to get credentialed, purchase all the expensive gear, make the contract obligations to be there no matter what, the time and effort to set up/tear down, pay for your fuel, work long hours processing pictures, etc..."
I was the one who said that, and while I do have other sources of income, most of my earned income IS from photography. I don't say that to argue, only to legitimize my point. Our clients don't pay us for our education, equipment, hard work, credentials, insurance, or whatever our CODB is. They pay us as little as they can for a product they can use. If they can get for free, THEY SHOULD. Doing otherwise is stupid business practice. >>>
Well, see there --- that's where we think differently.
When a business/organization credentials you, or gives you a contract and you have an exclusivity clause in it, then they let joe blow come in and undercut your business, that's not smart business, THAT'S STUPID AND UNETHICAL!!!!!
There, I've had my say...now let me go sulk <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/rolleyes1.gif" border="0" alt="" >
. . . C'mon Randy! Don't sulk. It's the Holidays!!!!
I think I understand where some of our (you and me) different perspectives arise. I get the impression you shoot events, whereas I shoot things. It's not very likely that there's some other shooter trying to photograph the same kitchen or foyer that I am. The thought of an architect even giving someone the time of day who calls his office and offers to shoot a project for free is laughable. Don't happen.
If you're the OP on an event, every Tom, Dick, and Sally can try to horn in, I guess.
Your point about a client violating a contract is spot on. That's not what I was referring to though. That's after the fact. My point was simply that it is the right and duty of any business person to minimize his CODB. Establish quality standards, then pay as little as you can to meet those standards.
You've got me thinking though. I think I need to raise my pricing structure. I don't get any whining about the cost of my work.
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
Again - thanks !
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I felt bad at first for taking photos for my son's baseball league for free. Untill I saw what the "Pro" was shooting was crap. I had lots of doors open because of this.
Recently I shot for a special needs student event for free. I got with the pro that was set up and talked to him. He had lots of expensive equipment and there was no way I could compete with him. He was charging lots of money for each photo and rightfully so. He was very good. He was so nice he offered his speed light equipment for my use for free. Although I didn't use it (I didn't know how to set it up), I was great to see him step up.
Actually, there is a glut of photographers now that every one and their uncle has a digital camera and wants to practice. AND THEY WANT TO PRACTICE AND GIVE THE WORK AWAY. This has really hurt the market for all photographers. Look at the microstock - $1.00 for an image. Go look at Craigslist. When there is a lot of competition, the prices drop. People are not valuing the skill of great photography now since you can buy a decent P&S and get some fairly good images that way. They need to be educated as to what makes a good image. I have seen some pretty bad work coming from people who bought a camera for $500 and call themselves professional. That is their only investment in photography.:cry It gives the pros bad names because they don't have insurance, a true business, sometimes integrity or knowledge.
To get to the professional level, the best way to do it is to shoot it and charge at least for the finished product. But best to find venues, like your kids soccer or such that will allow you to shoot but without giving the work away and classes to practice and get better than the neighbor with the p&S with the 12x optical zoom and all the noise in their image.
Flash Frozen Photography, Inc.
http://flashfrozenphotography.com