Studio lighting (kit)?

Nikolai

I'm thinking of getting a good set of studio lights. Probably not the whole thing at once (too mucho dinero needed), but the one that eventually will allow me to get the whole thing... So kinda start small but useful, and build up.
I really - REALLY - like the Profoto system, where the central power unit controls everything, can be hooked to PC and even has a built-in pocketwizard receiver, but man this piece alone is like $8,000...
I keep seeing all these magazine ads for different systems, but without hands-on experience it's really hard to say whether I'd like them or not.
What makes it harder that it seems that second hand market for this type of things is virtually inexistent (or maybe I simply didn't find it yet), so getting a cheaper version first and upgrading it later does not sound like a good option.
I wonder if there is something like profoto system, but maybe with less bells and whistles. I'd like the idea of one power unit controlling/triggering all the lights (4 at least), so monolights kinda not an option.
Urgh, I sound like a darn n00b...

Tango

nikolai

i dont think you need to spend that kind of money!

also, imo, a hairlight will help greatly

Aaron

James S

So why not get some Alien Bees? The starter set which is what I have includes:

2 - AB400 Lights
2 - 10ft light stands
1 - 48" shoot through umbrealla
1 - 48" silver/white umbrella
1 - Wireless transmitter
2 - Wireless receivers

total price = $706.89

Found here: http://www.alienbees.com/digi.html

Then later as you go you can add a background light:
http://www.alienbees.com/background.html

and more lights as needed.

JimW

Nik, I have two Profoto Pro Acute (Alfa) packs at 2400 ws each. Very well built stuff. In the last 10 years, I've only had to take in one pack for minor repair, cost $79. I agree it's a good idea to build your system slowly with quality stuff. In the long run, you'll have less hassle. Do you have a pack repair shop in your town? If not, consider the hassle of sending a pack away for service. My suggestion is get the best packs you can afford. Then build from there.

Also, you may have plans to run four heads off one pack, and you certainly can do that. But, in practice I think you'll want no more than two heads per pack. At least that's been my experience. Makes things easier and faster.

One more thing. I wish I had the capability to turn the power WAY down, but with my old packs, I can't. So I must wrap them in nd gels, which gets ridiculous, and then of course you can't see the modeling lamps when they're wrapped in gels. So I might suggest you consider that for your purchase.

Good luck,
Jim

ziggy53

Nikolai wrote:

I'm thinking of getting a good set of studio lights. Probably not the whole thing at once (too mucho dinero needed), but the one that eventually will allow me to get the whole thing... So kinda start small but useful, and build up.
I really - REALLY - like the Profoto system, where the central power unit controls everything, can be hooked to PC and even has a built-in pocketwizard receiver, but man this piece alone is like $8,000...
I keep seeing all these magazine ads for different systems, but without hands-on experience it's really hard to say whether I'd like them or not.
What makes it harder that it seems that second hand market for this type of things is virtually inexistent (or maybe I simply didn't find it yet), so getting a cheaper version first and upgrading it later does not sound like a good option.
I wonder if there is something like profoto system, but maybe with less bells and whistles. I'd like the idea of one power unit controlling/triggering all the lights (4 at least), so monolights kinda not an option.
Urgh, I sound like a darn n00b...

Monolights have a "major" advantage that makes them so popular, a dedicated power supply with storage and control in "each" head. This means if the individual head starts acting up, you can still shoot with the other monolights.

You can get monolights with a single integrated remote control unit that coordinates all of the monolights' settings.

Monolights are also much more positionable merely adding inexpensive power extension cords as needed. It's also easier to "split" the power into multiple circuits if needed.

Years ago, my employer decided to do a 48 foot display as a two page spread in one of the industry magazines. They hired a photographer from 1 1/2 hours away because he had an 8" x 10" view camera as well as the requisite electronic flash with a unitized power pack and heads.

Unfortunately, the power pack failed and we had to wait about 1/2 day for a replacement. While we finished the shoot (late that night), that photographer was never hired again.

My boss and I used the experience to justify our own lighting purchase, 4 Bowens monolights.

If you still want a unified power pack type of lighting, Elinchrom is pretty well respected and not quite as expensive as some other manufacturers.

Nikolai

rex wrote:

So why not get some Alien Bees?

Don't like monolights, sorry...

Nikolai

AaronNelson wrote:

nikolai

i dont think you need to spend that kind of money!

also, imo, a hairlight will help greatly

Aaron

Thank you, PM replied!

Nikolai

ziggy53 wrote:

Monolights have a "major" advantage that makes them so popular, a dedicated power supply with storage and control in "each" head. This means if the individual head starts acting up, you can still shoot with the other monolights.

You can get monolights with a single integrated remote control unit that coordinates all of the monolights' settings.

Monolights are also much more positionable merely adding inexpensive power extension cords as needed. It's also easier to "split" the power into multiple circuits if needed.

Years ago, my employer decided to do a 48 foot display as a two page spread in one of the industry magazines. They hired a photographer from 1 1/2 hours away because he had an 8" x 10" view camera as well as the requisite electronic flash with a unitized power pack and heads.

Unfortunately, the power pack failed and we had to wait about 1/2 day for a replacement. While we finished the shoot (late that night), that photographer was never hired again.

My boss and I used the experience to justify our own lighting purchase, 4 Bowens monolights.

If you still want a unified power pack type of lighting, Elinchrom is pretty well respected and not quite as expensive as some other manufacturers.

ZIggy, thanks a lot! I didn't know monolights can be remotely controlled.
You mean I can remotely control EVERITHING, like both the stobe power and modeling light power, and I don't need to have 4 PW recievers to hang off each of them, but just one?

James S

My Alien Bees have one receiver $39 on each one. Both are controlled by the transmitter mounted to my hot shoe.

Nikolai

rex wrote:

My Alien Bees have one receiver $39 on each one. Both are controlled by the transmitter mounted to my hot shoe.

Rex,
I guess I was also looking for a (single) remote controlling capabilities. Can your 'Bees be controlled remotely, at least main power-wise?

James S

You can have one receiver if you never work around other photographers with the same setup. But Alien Bees offers the receviers for $40 that plug inline to the power cord. One Transmitter that mounts on the hot shoe is also $40. So basically you can use one transmitter and one receiver and just put the other lights in slave mode and it will work fine. Or you use one transmitter and a receiver for each light.

http://www.alienbees.com/rft1.html

ChatKat

Profoto Monolights
Nik -

I took a week long studio light class last year. Very intense and we used every kind of light set up and every kind of modifier in the workshop. (JDRyan was in my class too at Santa Fe)

When I got back I looked at all kinds of set ups and specifically went to the WPPI show so that I could actually get a hands on comparison of brands and types. I talked to a lot of pros about their choice.

I bought the Profoto Mono lights. B&H had a package that came with three heads, lightstands, umbrellas, softboxes and case - oh and 4 pocketwizards. I did not need all the PW's that the kit came with - the heads have them built in.

What I learned was that the recycle time is reliable; the color stays the same from flash to flash and the quality is there. I might have invested a lot to start with but I know that these lights will be part of my kit for a long long time. I did end up with two of Shay's Sunpak 622's for easy portable lights when I go on location - they are fine for that. I have a shoot in my new studio - the first one - next week and I will have the camera room set up and ready to go with the lights. You are welcome to venture down my way and check them out.

ziggy53

Nikolai wrote:

ZIggy, thanks a lot! I didn't know monolights can be remotely controlled.
You mean I can remotely control EVERITHING, like both the stobe power and modeling light power, and I don't need to have 4 PW recievers to hang off each of them, but just one?

Starting with the Eli':
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/283876-REG/Elinchrom_19340_Remote_Control_for_RX.html

Then the Bowens:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/254359-REG/Bowens_BW_7520_RC_1_Infrared_Remote_Control.html

Even a Bowens kit:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/469996-REG/Bowens_BW_4277_Esprit_DX_Two_Monolight.html

... and finally Photogenic (although I am not a fan of Photogenic personally):
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/304478-REG/Photogenic_919380_Studio_Control_for_DR_.html

I see your point about slave-ing multiple heads and I always used the built-in optical slaves in the true studio, and I now use inexpensive radio slaves as well as optical slave for my own setup. It works well enough that I don't plan anything else for a while.

Shane422

Elinchrom Ranger RX lights
I don't know much about Elinchrom lights, but I have their trigger system. If hooked into Elinchrom RX lights, you can control the power (not TTL) as well as trigger the lights from the camera transmitter unit. You can also control the system through your PC, and they said that this year the system will be updated so you can fire the camera remotely as well.
http://www.bogenimaging.us/Jahia/product_main_page/site/bius/lang/en_US/cache/bypass?actualPathCategoryKey=1CAT:AAA3:2CAT:BBB1:3CAT:C124:4CAT:D275&curMarketId=NONE&curBrandId=BEL&kindOfProductCollectionRequest=productList&isCleanList=true

Nikolai

rex wrote:

You can have one receiver if you never work around other photographers with the same setup. But Alien Bees offers the receviers for $40 that plug inline to the power cord. One Transmitter that mounts on the hot shoe is also $40. So basically you can use one transmitter and one receiver and just put the other lights in slave mode and it will work fine. Or you use one transmitter and a receiver for each light.

http://www.alienbees.com/rft1.html

Rex, thank you for the info! I have read your link about ABs and now see that they can be in fact controlled remotely (even if wired).

Nikolai

ChatKat wrote:

Nik -

I took a week long studio light class last year. Very intense and we used every kind of light set up and every kind of modifier in the workshop. (JDRyan was in my class too at Santa Fe)

When I got back I looked at all kinds of set ups and specifically went to the WPPI show so that I could actually get a hands on comparison of brands and types. I talked to a lot of pros about their choice.

I bought the Profoto Mono lights. B&H had a package that came with three heads, lightstands, umbrellas, softboxes and case - oh and 4 pocketwizards. I did not need all the PW's that the kit came with - the heads have them built in.

What I learned was that the recycle time is reliable; the color stays the same from flash to flash and the quality is there. I might have invested a lot to start with but I know that these lights will be part of my kit for a long long time. I did end up with two of Shay's Sunpak 622's for easy portable lights when I go on location - they are fine for that. I have a shoot in my new studio - the first one - next week and I will have the camera room set up and ready to go with the lights. You are welcome to venture down my way and check them out.

Thanks, Kathy, I think I'll take you up on this! Email sent!
And congrats on the scheduling the shoot!

Nikolai

ziggy53 wrote:

Starting with the Eli':
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/283876-REG/Elinchrom_19340_Remote_Control_for_RX.html

Then the Bowens:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/254359-REG/Bowens_BW_7520_RC_1_Infrared_Remote_Control.html

Even a Bowens kit:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/469996-REG/Bowens_BW_4277_Esprit_DX_Two_Monolight.html

... and finally Photogenic (although I am not a fan of Photogenic personally):
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/304478-REG/Photogenic_919380_Studio_Control_for_DR_.html

I see your point about slave-ing multiple heads and I always used the built-in optical slaves in the true studio, and I now use inexpensive radio slaves as well as optical slave for my own setup. It works well enough that I don't plan anything else for a while.

Ziggy, I see now, thank you!
What kind of cheap radio slaves do you use?

Nikolai

Shane,

Shane422 wrote:

I don't know much about Elinchrom lights, but I have their trigger system. If hooked into Elinchrom RX lights, you can control the power (not TTL) as well as trigger the lights from the camera transmitter unit. You can also control the system through your PC, and they said that this year the system will be updated so you can fire the camera remotely as well.
http://www.bogenimaging.us/Jahia/product_main_page/site/bius/lang/en_US/cache/bypass?actualPathCategoryKey=1CAT:AAA3:2CAT:BBB1:3CAT:C124:4CAT:D275&curMarketId=NONE&curBrandId=BEL&kindOfProductCollectionRequest=productList&isCleanList=true

Thanks! I'll check it out!

Nikolai

jlw wrote:

Rather than take a position in the powerpack-vs-monolight debate, I'm going to point out that you don't have to limit yourself to one or the other.
...
Good luck and have fun...

Thank you very much for your insight! You've pointed out many important things I was not thinking about seriously enough!
Guess more homework for me...

ziggy53

Nikolai wrote:

Ziggy, I see now, thank you!
What kind of cheap radio slaves do you use?

Ebay purchase
magic_trigger is the vendor
16 channel RF

This is an image of the kit (not mine):
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b398/auction-ebay/RD616-box.jpg

Nikolai

Soooo, let's see....

Monolights Pros:

• combine power pack and strobe/lamp in one unit, hence less cords
• each unit is totally independent, which improves reliability of the whole system

Monolights Cons:

• Heavy, can be tripped off easier, esp. if set high on a stand
• Unless wire/wireless remote is attached, adjusting may require more time/effort or be cumbersome
• Since each unit requires its own AC supply, the whole setup requires more power cords or can overload a single socket if a splitter is used
• May require several individual triggers

Pack/Head Pros:

• Only the light itself goes onto the stand, the pack can be used as a weight on a bottom, so it's less prone to tripping
• Controls are on the pack, hence they are easier to reach even if no remote control is used
• One pack can control several lights, hence less power cords and less triggers are needed

Pack/Head Cons:

• Extra cords are needed to connect lights to packs, cluttering the shooting space
• If more than one light is connected to each pack, single pack failure causes more damage to the system

---
Did I miss anything?

Nikolai

ziggy53 wrote:

Ebay purchase
magic_trigger is the vendor
16 channel RF

This is an image (not mine):
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b398/auction-ebay/RD616-box.jpg

Thank you!

Nikolai

I found a local guy with a good rep who is a Britek dealer. How does this brand rate on average?

Scott_Quier

Nik - FWIW, Alien Bees have integrated optical slave triggers and they are quite sensitive/reliable. In any studio setting, you only need one wireless trigger to get them all to fire.

Before I got my PW transceivers, I was even using my 580EX to trigger the ABs. Here's how, you set the 580EX to manual mode, 1/128 power and pointed either up or away from the subject. At this power setting, the 580 contributed in no significant way to the exposure of the subject and there was no significant recycle time of the 580 to worry about either. The optical slave triggers in the ABs see the flash and fire. Simple stuff. Worked EVERY time.

But, this still leaves you with the problem (?) of getting the power setting set correctly or making it easy to do. The ABs have a controller you can get. Though, as you know, it's a wired solution.

Nikolai

Scott_Quier wrote:

Nik - FWIW, Alien Bees have integrated optical slave triggers and they are quite sensitive/reliable. In any studio setting, you only need one wireless trigger to get them all to fire.

Before I got my PW transceivers, I was even using my 580EX to trigger the ABs. Here's how, you set the 580EX to manual mode, 1/128 power and pointed either up or away from the subject. At this power setting, the 580 contributed in no significant way to the exposure of the subject and there was no significant recycle time of the 580 to worry about either. The optical slave triggers in the ABs see the flash and fire. Simple stuff. Worked EVERY time.

Thanks Scott, got it!

At this point I think I learned enough to adjust my criteria:

1. They all have optical slave stuff, so in a studio environment this really doesn't matter, since I have a couple of PWs (and 580Ex:-). However some optical slaves may not work reliably outdoors... In wich case el-cheapo radio triggers can also work (instead of more powerfll, but way more expensive PWs)
2. It is important to have modelling light to auto adjust along with the strobe, otherwise it doesn't help much
3. It is important to be able to set the power very low so the main light can be set really close. Otherwise you'd have to use gels/shutters and modelling light becomes useless
4. I still like the idea of being able to remotely control the power from a single location. Unfortunately it may mean more cords (from RC to units) or more $$ for wirelss ones.

I hope to see Kathy's setup soon, and also maybe go and visit the local Britek guy in Ventura (30 min drive) to get some on-hand experience.

Scott_Quier

Nikolai wrote:

Thanks Scott, got it!

At this point I think I learned enough to adjust my criteria:

1. They all have optical slave stuff, so in a studio environment this really doesn't matter, since I have a couple of PWs (and 580Ex:-). However some optical slaves may not work reliably outdoors... In wich case el-cheapo radio triggers can also work (instead of more powerfll, but way more expensive PWs)
2. It is important to have modelling light to auto adjust along with the strobe, otherwise it doesn't help much
3. It is important to be able to set the power very low so the main light can be set really close. Otherwise you'd have to use gels/shutters and modelling light becomes useless
4. I still like the idea of being able to remotely control the power from a single location. Unfortunately it may mean more cords (from RC to units) or more $$ for wirelss ones.

I hope to see Kathy's setup soon, and also maybe go and visit the local Britek guy in Ventura (30 min drive) to get some on-hand experience.

I think you may be right about the optical slave outdoors.

AB modeling light does vary, roughly, with the power setting of the strobe. I've read that you don't a linear correlation between the modeling light and the strobe until you spend major bucks. Just what I've heard.

The ABs can be set quite low. I have AB800 units. If you like, I can do a quick test to give you some idea of the lowest power setting. Just let me know and I'll get that information to you in the next day or so.

Nikolai

Scott_Quier wrote:

The ABs can be set quite low. I have AB800 units. If you like, I can do a quick test to give you some idea of the lowest power setting. Just let me know and I'll get that information to you in the next day or so.

That would be awesome!
Can please you try the following:
Midday, inside, non-south room, window shutters/drapes closed;
one light with softbox,
lightmeter 2 ft away from the center facing the light,
ISO 100, 1/250s.
What f number would you get at min power?

Scott_Quier

Nikolai wrote:

That would be awesome!
Can please you try the following:
Midday, inside, non-south room, window shutters/drapes closed;
one light with softbox,
lightmeter 2 ft away from the center facing the light,
ISO 100, 1/250s.
What f number would you get at min power?

Will do. You do understand that the shutter speed really has nothing to do with it as long as the amount of ambient light is 3+ stops less than that produced by the strobe, right?

I'll get an answer up to you by COB Sunday, but I plan to get it done tomorrow (but we all know what happens to the best of plans )

Nikolai

Scott_Quier wrote:

Will do. You do understand that the shutter speed really has nothing to do with it as long as the amount of ambient light is 3+ stops less than that produced by the strobe, right?

Well, yeah, unless you have very long shatter speed (shutter drag). Hence 1/250 to minimize any possible ambinet light effect...

Scott_Quier wrote:

I'll get an answer up to you by COB Sunday, but I plan to get it done tomorrow (but we all know what happens to the best of plans )

Thanks, man, much obliged!

ChatKat

What size soft box
Nik -

The size of the softbox and the proximity to the subject will affect the reading. Also if the softbox has any modifiers/Grids/baffles. I find that you cna pretty close shoot at 4.0 at 125, 160 or 250 and adjust the lights by checking the histogram.

Nikolai wrote:

Well, yeah, unless you have very long shatter speed (shutter drag). Hence 1/250 to minimize any possible ambinet light effect...


Thanks, man, much obliged!

Nikolai

ChatKat wrote:

Nik -

The size of the softbox and the proximity to the subject will affect the reading. Also if the softbox has any modifiers/Grids/baffles. I find that you cna pretty close shoot at 4.0 at 125, 160 or 250 and adjust the lights by checking the histogram.

Kathy, I inderstand that, of course, but thank you for clarifying!
I meant small portrait size softbox (30"..40"), like the one Shay used during the seminar (Scott knows, too:-). I figured with that 2 ft away I can safely count on bigger boxes/greater distances.