Kathy, I inderstand that, of course, but thank you for clarifying!
I meant small portrait size softbox (30"..40"), like the one Shay used during the seminar (Scott knows, too:-). I figured with that 2 ft away I can safely count on bigger boxes/greater distances.
I was planning on including the size of the softbox in my "report" as I also understand that this plays a role in the exposure.....
Strobe: Alien Bees AB800
Power Setting: 1/32
Softbox: 30" x 40", depth: 20"
Light meter: Sekonic L-358
Distance from softbox to meter: 24"
Distance from strobe bulb to meter: 44"
Exposure: ISO 100, SS: 1/250, f/4.0 resulted in flash contribution of 100% (no ambient contribution).
I took a week long studio light class last year. Very intense and we used every kind of light set up and every kind of modifier in the workshop. (JDRyan was in my class too at Santa Fe)
When I saw this thread I was thinking I would have to get Kathy to chime in.
Nik - After reading this, I see that you definitely want to use these 'onsite' but I'm not sure if you are looking for only AC powered or battery powered.
I ask because the ABs can do either. Some monos also can, like the Calumet/Bowens Kathy and I used in Santa Fe. I was all gung ho after the class last year and looked into several options. I even got a quote for the Calumet monos with AC/Battery but at the time I would have had to buy the PWs separately.
This may be nitpicking, but when I used the Elinchrome Battery pack system at Los Luceros, I liked the quality of light a lot and the modfiers, but the connectors from the lights to the pack just drove me crazy. Couldn't tell if they were set all the way and locked, or unseated. AARGGH! And I really wanted to like them. I'll have to try another set to see if I can get over it.
One I really liked was the Norman's Allure kit and the Norman 400s. But this is a minimal setup. The ProFotos with battery pack were just too expensive for me to start off with, since I wanted to 'grow' with a system like you do.
I'm sure you know this, but most systems running off of batteries disable the modeling light if they have one.
So what did I get? I put the purchase on hold until I could better define my actual needs. I got the 580EX II and the Sekonic L-358 (with the PW module since it was on sale as a bundle) instead. But all the AB fanboys & girls aside, they do seem to offer the best 'value' and flexibility at a modest entry fee.
Get em, see what works and what doesn't, and then replace them if you want. The DO seem to be limited in some of the softbox modfiers the Profotos and others have (like grids). The reason you don't see a huge used market is that a lot folks may just keep 'em even if they move up.
(And yeah, that last paragraph was as much for my own justification to move forward as it is to help you out )
"Don't ask me what I think of you, I might not give the answer that you want me to. Oh well."
-Fleetwood Mac
Strobe: Alien Bees AB800
Power Setting: 1/32
Softbox: 30" x 40", depth: 20"
Light meter: Sekonic L-358
Distance from softbox to meter: 24"
Distance from strobe bulb to meter: 44"
Exposure: ISO 100, SS: 1/250, f/4.0 resulted in flash contribution of 100% (no ambient contribution).
Scott,
How do you shoot at 1/250 with yoiur 5D? I have a set of Alien Bees, and if I tyry using a shutter speed faser than 1/160 I have some sync issues.
Strobe: Alien Bees AB800
Power Setting: 1/32
Softbox: 30" x 40", depth: 20"
Light meter: Sekonic L-358
Distance from softbox to meter: 24"
Distance from strobe bulb to meter: 44"
Exposure: ISO 100, SS: 1/250, f/4.0 resulted in flash contribution of 100% (no ambient contribution).
When I saw this thread I was thinking I would have to get Kathy to chime in.
Nik - After reading this, I see that you definitely want to use these 'onsite' but I'm not sure if you are looking for only AC powered or battery powered.
Thanks, man!
I forgot to mention in this thread that I already do have and used many times the following lighting setup (also known as "Shay's Setup":-):
two Sunpak Auto555EX "popato masher" battery operated flash heads
two 40" brollyboxes (shoot-through umbrella), one silver 40" umbrella
two PW receivers, 1 PW transmitter (4 channels)
two 10' light stands (with heads)
Sekonic L-308S Flashmate lightmeter
Amvona Dynatran 12'x10' backdrop rack
two 8'x12' collapsible backdrops (mixed-gray and white)
So I guess I'm kinda covered for portable scenarios, I'm looking for the studio only (i.e. AC power) lights. I mean, if they also can operate on a DC power that's fine too, but it's not a priority for me.
I bought two of those -- exact same unit, exact same vendor.
One works pretty well over a range of 15-20' and I'm still using it.
The other seemed okay at first, then quickly declined until it wouldn't trigger at a range of over about 18 inches, and that only at about 50% reliabillity. I tried replacing all the batteries -- didn't help -- so threw it away.
Just a warning that "your mileage may vary."
I wonder if you can piggy-back the transmitters?
I mean - PWs work for a great distance (300ft at least), but they are expensive. However, several lights can be close to each other. So I wonder if I can use PW receiver to actiuvate an el-cheapo (EC) transmitter, which in its turn would trigger a bunch of EC recievers. i.e.
camera ==> PW transmitter
> PW reciever ==> EC tramsmitter ---> (EC recieviers cluster)
Here's another dirty little secret: Unless you can shoot in an environment that's otherwise almost completely dark, modeling lights don't help for visualizing your lighting effects.
By the time you've got a diffuser over them, even high-wattage tungsten modeling lights are dim compared to normal room lighting. Modeling lights that adjust proportionally are dimmer yet, so the ambient light will overwhelm them completely and you won't be able to see what they're doing at all.
One thing for which modeling lights ARE useful is spotting undesirable reflections in the subject. But this is best done with the modeling lights set at full power, so the reflections will be easier to see.
Executive summary: If the system that's otherwise best for you has proportional modeling lights, fine. But don't disqualify an otherwise-suitable system just because it lacks this one feature.
After you get some experience with your system, you'll find you use the modeling lights less and less. Personally, I only turn mine on during initial setup, to make sure I've got all the cables plugged in. Once I'm ready to start shooting, I turn them off to reduce heat buildup, which can shorten the flashtubes' life.
Speaking of heat buildup -- if you do want to use your modeling lights constantly, and decide on a system with high-wattage modeling lights (150w or more) AND if you plan to use the lights in a softbox or bank, make sure you spring for fan-cooled heads. It can get VERY hot inside a softbox without them. One time on a shoot I was forced to use a head on which the cooling fan had failed, and we were smelling smoke within five minutes.
Very interesting - again! I agree, that modeling lights are probably only needed during the initial setup. However I wonder if they can be used simply as an ambient - targeted! - light source to help the camera AF, provided the rest of the room/studio is very dark.
Very interesting - again! I agree, that modeling lights are probably only needed during the initial setup. However I wonder if they can be used simply as an ambient - targeted! - light source to help the camera AF, provided the rest of the room/studio is very dark.
Well I'm sure they could if you drag your shutter speed. But for the most part, why would you want to? The direction of the light from the modeling lights will be the same as the flash. True you could get more of a 'tungsten look' overall, but it seems to me that you would want other light sources for your ambient light to achieve shadows, contrast, etc.
The OP in this thread is teased (a little) about hot lights. IMHO, in your case well placed hot lights could give you the ambient light you want, without having to buy extra strobes dialed down as fill and with all the modifiers (snoot, softbox, grid) needed to affect the flash output.
"Don't ask me what I think of you, I might not give the answer that you want me to. Oh well."
-Fleetwood Mac
Well I'm sure they could if you drag your shutter speed. But for the most part, why would you want to? The direction of the light from the modeling lights will be the same as the flash. True you could get more of a 'tungsten look' overall, but it seems to me that you would want other light sources for your ambient light to achieve shadows, contrast, etc.
Using ambient for focusing has nothing to do with dragging the shutter. Dragging the shutter is a technique to include ambient in the exposure.
Very interesting - again! I agree, that modeling lights are probably only needed during the initial setup. However I wonder if they can be used simply as an ambient - targeted! - light source to help the camera AF, provided the rest of the room/studio is very dark.
Believe it or not, you can shoot with a lot of ambient light in the room and not have it contribute to the exposure - a lot more than you might think. Would you believe that I had 4 x 40W florescent tubes going when these were shot (link)? Total contribution of these tubes to the exposure - 0.0%.
I don't have a 5D (wish, sometimes, that I did). I have a 20D and a 30D and their top sync speed is 1/250.
For the test, I simply used the L-358 - no issues there.
Thanks Scott. That answers my question. Your max sync speed is 1/250. The 5D is limited to 1/200. I think I remember reading that with studio strobes you might need to adjust the shutter speed to below the rated camera sync speed? Of course in most situations using strobes the difference between 1/200, and 1/250 will be negligible.
Thanks Scott. That answers my question. Your max sync speed is 1/250. The 5D is limited to 1/200. I think I remember reading that with studio strobes you might need to adjust the shutter speed to below the rated camera sync speed? Of course in most situations using strobes the difference between 1/200, and 1/250 will be negligible.
Sorry about the 5D upgrade I gave you.
Sam
I've read that as well. Not seen that problem when shooting with the strobes.
Okay, I probably exaggerated my original post a bit. If you're working in a small area with subdued light, and can have the strobes fairly close to the subject, then yes, the modeling lights can provide enough illumination for focusing, judging of shadow directions, etc.
So if you're looking to do such types of close-in shooting as tabletop product shots or headshot portraiture, and will be working in spaces where you can subdue the ambient light, then high-wattage modeling lights will be quite useful. (Again, be sure to buy fan-cooled heads if you're going to put them in soft boxes!)
Most of my shooting with strobes involves full-body-length shots and groups, which require the lights to be positioned farther back. At these distances, the modeling lights alone don't provide enough light for AF, and the models don't like stumbling over each other in semi-darkness... so I need to leave the room lights on, which pretty much washes out any effect the modeling lights would have.
But for small, controlled-environment shooting, sure, modeling lights are very useful.
(I still don't think porportional modeling lights are that big a deal.)
For me
I like the modelling lights on my Profoto's - they give me a great way to see how my light will affect the image. I'd rather use the modelling lights to get the vision before I start popping the strobes. I am not sure what the life is - how many flashes - but I can say the bulbs are pricey to replace.
Nik and all, this has been a great thread as I consider all the same things Nik did a little more than a year later.
So Nik, would you have done anything differently now that you are set up? How do you feel now on the mono versus pack issue (I'm considering mixing actually)? I'm pretty sold on the Profoto as a brand with color temp reliability and reliability in general. Price, within reason, is not the issue (okay so no broncolor). I am currently building my studio (24 x 24) wired 110 and 220 with attached office with focus on fine art portraiture (full length individual and complicated group shots). Insights?
Nik and all, this has been a great thread as I consider all the same things Nik did a little more than a year later.
So Nik, would you have done anything differently now that you are set up? How do you feel now on the mono versus pack issue (I'm considering mixing actually)? I'm pretty sold on the Profoto as a brand with color temp reliability and reliability in general. Price, within reason, is not the issue (okay so no broncolor). I am currently building my studio (24 x 24) wired 110 and 220 with attached office with focus on fine art portraiture (full length individual and complicated group shots). Insights?
Profoto are wonderful lights.
I am a major believer in monolights as I witnessed the problems you can have when a pack source fails and you have to scramble for replacement lighting. With monolights, each light is totally independent and if they all fail simultaneously you have more problems than just lights. It is also easier to upgrade your lighting and it's easier to develop custom kits for specific needs. Monolights are also easier to distribute in a large setting.
Nik and all, this has been a great thread as I consider all the same things Nik did a little more than a year later.
So Nik, would you have done anything differently now that you are set up? How do you feel now on the mono versus pack issue (I'm considering mixing actually)? I'm pretty sold on the Profoto as a brand with color temp reliability and reliability in general. Price, within reason, is not the issue (okay so no broncolor). I am currently building my studio (24 x 24) wired 110 and 220 with attached office with focus on fine art portraiture (full length individual and complicated group shots). Insights?
Hey Tom,
thanks for bringing this oldie back to life...
Gosh, I can't believe only 15 months ago I had pretty much nothing if you don't count two sunpacks, one 580EXII on a cord and a lightmeter
OK, I must say that after a year-plus of a rather heavy usage of 8 studio lights my point of view changed rather drastically from what I apparently had beforehand.
Let me get you a run down on my current setup and highlight pros and cons.
Studio Space I'm using the biggest room in my house as a studio. My house is two-stories and this room has a "cathedral ceiling", starting at 10ft at the front door and ending up at 22 ft at its highest point (that's where the backdrop is). I would say this height is a major advantage (more on this below).
The length of this space is 22 ft, which is barely enough for a full height shots. I still can make it, but I basically have to press my back into the wall, especially for the tall girls (runway models on the heels can be pretty tall, you know:-). Still 50mm on a FF body can do it, I just need to be very careful (which is kinda a good thing in any case:-).
The biggest limitation for me is the width. The room is non rectangular, it is kinda made out of two rectangles, one being 12ft long x 22 ft wide (at the door) and another being 10ft long x 15ft wide (at the backdrop). I put a screen in a wider section splitting it 15/7, thus creating a get-ready/change/makeup place for my models and thus making the "shooting space" a pure 15ft wide x 22ft long rectangle. I must say - 15ft is barely enough.
All in all in your case (24ftx24ft) you should be in a much better shape, provided your ceiling is high enough.
Lights Type
Since you read this thread from the very start you may remember I was originally very opposed to the idea of the monolights. My reasoning at the time was:
they are heavier than heads, hence more load on the stands booms, hence heavier/bulkier/more expensive grip equipment is needed;
I like the idea of having one power source, especially the type I can control remotely.
Well, the life (and all the smart guys here who shared their wisdom with me ) made me change my mind. The key factors were:
reliability
If one monolight goes out - one light goes out. If one power brick goes out - all the lights attached to it are gone. Hence the need to use it in one-for-one or one-for-two setup, which leads me to the next point:
price
Those power bricks are FRIGGING EXPENSIVE
I mean, it's a rather costly enterprise the way it is (I think I spent way more than ten grand for all the various studio equipment just last year alone), but a good power source can cost half of that amount ALONE. Henceforth, considering the reliability, I would have to buy like at least four of them, if not eight?
If the money were not the problem I would probably go with the brick+head solution, since my original POV is still valid. However the practicality of the monolights and the fund limitation finally made it no-brainer.
Adjustable/Proportional/Tracking Modeling Light
All my lights have this option, yet I don't use it. Like never. Maaaaaybe one time, and I could easily go without it. They are always either at max or switched off. Helps focusing and creates more perceptible lighting pattern.
I don't think any good lights come without it, but it's really not an issue.
Remote Control and Triggering
Control
That's a big one, actually. Remember, one of reasons I wanted the power brick based solution was to have a complete control over every light in one easily accessible location (computer, preferably) - as opposed to running to every light and adjust it manually.
Well, since I couldn't afford the bricks, I went without it. Yes, it is a bit of a hassle to fine tune the setup. However, with practice it goes rather quickly. I tend to use the same power settings over and over, so in most cases it's really a matter of minutes.
Triggering
I was dead set on using PocketWizards right off the bat. There are other solutions on the market (Radior poppers, AB proprietary ones, etc.). I have chosen PW, thus far it was working pretty good. You may need to replace/recharge the batteries occasionally, but that's about it. Last year one of my oldest units (5-6 years old) died. Well, I went ahead and got two new ones. The others work fine, even the siblings of the deceased. And I like the form-factor of the Mini TT1 :-)
Last But Not Least: Brand
Oooh, Lord... "To Bee or Not To Bee: that *is* Da Question"
I currently have a mix of ProFotos and ABs, namely
ProFoto Compact-R 600 and 300 (purchased as a kit)
AlienBee 4xAB800 and 2xAB400 - purchased in several steps (headsup: it's best to buy in fours, you'll have 20% discount on ALL the accessories to go into that order)
ProFotos have PW receiver built-in, ABs take PW via mini-to-mini cable ($9 in a local Radio Shack) and they all can be used as optical slaves as is (which I do quite often in the studio since I still don't have enough PW units to cover them all - I'm one short:-)
I would compare my mix of lights with the mix of bodies I have: 5D Mark II and 50D. First is sure nice, but it only takes more expensive and bulkier EF lenses, batteries are more expensive, etc.
ProFotos are very nice, can take huge modifiers and essentially are pro grade. You can feel a nice warmth inside when you handle them. Yet they are heavy, more expensive as the units and their accessories cost a fortune.
ABs are cheaper, plastiky and can only go so far on the size of modifiers. There is no way I could have attached my 7ft octabox on them.
They are light-weighted, I have no problems taking them to the beach or to the woods, they seem to withstand the transportation well.
And the accessories... Man... They are very inexpensive, yet a very good quality (way better than Chimera's IMHO). Yes, ProFoto's are nicer, but you will pay through the nose
I can't tell you about the light consistency, be it power or color temperature wise. I never did any solid measurements. For what I do with these lights(models/portraits/fashion shows) they are totally adequate.
What If...
...what if I had all the money in the world, or more specifically, unlimited grant money which I could only spend on studio/equipment
bigger (way bigger) studio with the hard floors and drive-in access
Two independent solutions, one for studio, one for location
Studio:
ProFotos heads with bricks (1-for-2), tethered to a laptop. Probably a ceiling-based rail system.
Location:
ABs are fine, but I would get 2xAB1600 and 4xAB800
Well, it is a drive-in space (8 x 10 garage door) which is good and somewhere down the line I'll replace the ugly solid garage door that I have to install to meet energy code with a commercial all-glass one for a huge available light softbox. With in-floor radiant heat, it's such overkill. I also have one north window in the studio area.
Anyway ... Yeah, the ceiling height is going to be an issue I know - 9 feet - although I've got some ideas on work-arounds.
I've been looking at 1200 w/s setups that dial way down in power with integrated pocketwizards, and building my own huge softboxes and wall-of-light setups (ala Dean Collins). Would you agree that 2400 w/s is overkill in most situations, and if you needed that much light, you might be better served by doubling up, i.e. it's better to have more "smaller" lights than fewer monstrous ones to increase flexibility?
I'm not sure on this given my ideas about creating, and trying to recreate, natural light like this ... http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=129578 ... as well as more complicated dramatic lighting.
And have you had issues with recycling time on your monos?
Well, it is a drive-in space (8 x 10 garage door) which is good and somewhere down the line I'll replace the ugly solid garage door that I have to install to meet energy code with a commercial all-glass one for a huge available light softbox. With in-floor radiant heat, it's such overkill. I also have one north window in the studio area.
Cool! Warm floor must be great up north. Here in socal I would be mostly concerned about AC :-)
Anyway ... Yeah, the ceiling height is going to be an issue I know - 9 feet - although I've got some ideas on work-arounds.
This is *serious* problem. Let me show you why.
Here is an example of kinda extreme lighting and extreme angle:
The backdrop part visible in the upper right corner of the image is probably at 15ft high, if not 20.
I'm not saying you will be always shooting like that, but at some point you would like to, and not having such an option would be frustrating to say the least...:cry
I'm not even talking of a sheer impossibility to use a proper hair light in 9ft high room...
I've been looking at 1200 w/s setups that dial way down in power with integrated pocketwizards, and building my own huge softboxes and wall-of-light setups (ala Dean Collins). Would you agree that 2400 w/s is overkill in most situations, and if you needed that much light, you might be better served by doubling up, i.e. it's better to have more "smaller" lights than fewer monstrous ones to increase flexibility?
Custom modifiers would definitely save you a few grand$. I would also say coupling less powerful lights may have their advantages, albeit not always.
And have you had issues with recycling time on your monos?
I don't shoot in strobo mode, so I don't have recycle time problem. However, I know that if you want to shoot at a very high rate (3..5fps) you would have to go with a a very high end solution which may be rather expensive (or a custom solution that require a lot of DYI).
Pro foto are good lights and I presume AB's are as well.....never used them....BUT I do use Paul Buff;s WhiteLightning 5000's.....have 5 of them.......as a mentor (of sorts) of mine told me and I do believe this wholeheartedly.......if you can keep all your lighting the same it will make life a 1000% easier on yu down the road.......reason is this......your out shooting on location and !!bam!! a light dies a horrible death.....it was your key light and to get things going you MUST grab a back light.....well if they are all the same no prob.....but if you have a mixed bag of lights now you have to hunt down another the same as your key light.........so I have always had a firm belief to purchase the most powerful lights you can afford at least 3 of........3 really is the minium for me and I shoot a lot of times with 1 main and 2 backlights depending on what I am doing...........
When I upgrade I will either go with the most Powerful Paul Buff White Lightning's asi have had to turn down a few jobs over theyears due to NOT enuff POWER in lighting.....of course I live in the Air CApital and getting calls to shoot a plane can and does happen and I just do not have the power right now to fill a hangar with light...................
In my opinon for studio lighting PW's are over kill and over priced....it is simply a trigger........I have been using the the $22 sets of ebay from photgearok and they work like a charm and have no problems with them.....if I were able to contol the lighting ratios off the triggers then taht would be something else to think a bout, but since you can't......I look for saving money with a system that will still work great.
Pro foto are good lights and I presume AB's are as well.....never used them....BUT I do use Paul Buff;s WhiteLightning 5000's.....have 5 of them.......as a mentor (of sorts) of mine told me and I do believe this wholeheartedly.......if you can keep all your lighting the same it will make life a 1000% easier on yu down the road.......reason is this......your out shooting on location and !!bam!! a light dies a horrible death.....it was your key light and to get things going you MUST grab a back light.....well if they are all the same no prob.....but if you have a mixed bag of lights now you have to hunt down another the same as your key light.........so I have always had a firm belief to purchase the most powerful lights you can afford at least 3 of........3 really is the minium for me and I shoot a lot of times with 1 main and 2 backlights depending on what I am doing...........
When I upgrade I will either go with the most Powerful Paul Buff White Lightning's asi have had to turn down a few jobs over theyears due to NOT enuff POWER in lighting.....of course I live in the Air CApital and getting calls to shoot a plane can and does happen and I just do not have the power right now to fill a hangar with light...................
In my opinon for studio lighting PW's are over kill and over priced....it is simply a trigger........I have been using the the $22 sets of ebay from photgearok and they work like a charm and have no problems with them.....if I were able to contol the lighting ratios off the triggers then taht would be something else to think a bout, but since you can't......I look for saving money with a system that will still work great.
1) turning jobs down due to the lack of lights? no place to rent? damn...:-( :cry
2) I agree that PW are overkill for studio-only setup. Quite often you can simply go with one cord + optical slaves alone.
However, as I shoot in location about 50% of time, sometimes I'm rather far away from my lights. I do trust PWs will do the job no matter what. And since I do have them already I use them in the studio, too...
.....of course I live in the Air CApital and getting calls to shoot a plane can and does happen and I just do not have the power right now to fill a hangar with light...................
You ought to have a look at Joe McNally's books. With 5 lights and some flash heads, you should be able to come up with something creative.
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Power Setting: 1/32
Softbox: 30" x 40", depth: 20"
Light meter: Sekonic L-358
Distance from softbox to meter: 24"
Distance from strobe bulb to meter: 44"
Exposure: ISO 100, SS: 1/250, f/4.0 resulted in flash contribution of 100% (no ambient contribution).
My Photos
Thoughts on photographing a wedding, How to post a picture, AF Microadjustments?, Light Scoop
Equipment List - Check my profile
When I saw this thread I was thinking I would have to get Kathy to chime in.
Nik - After reading this, I see that you definitely want to use these 'onsite' but I'm not sure if you are looking for only AC powered or battery powered.
I ask because the ABs can do either. Some monos also can, like the Calumet/Bowens Kathy and I used in Santa Fe. I was all gung ho after the class last year and looked into several options. I even got a quote for the Calumet monos with AC/Battery but at the time I would have had to buy the PWs separately.
This may be nitpicking, but when I used the Elinchrome Battery pack system at Los Luceros, I liked the quality of light a lot and the modfiers, but the connectors from the lights to the pack just drove me crazy. Couldn't tell if they were set all the way and locked, or unseated. AARGGH! And I really wanted to like them. I'll have to try another set to see if I can get over it.
One I really liked was the Norman's Allure kit and the Norman 400s. But this is a minimal setup. The ProFotos with battery pack were just too expensive for me to start off with, since I wanted to 'grow' with a system like you do.
I'm sure you know this, but most systems running off of batteries disable the modeling light if they have one.
So what did I get? I put the purchase on hold until I could better define my actual needs. I got the 580EX II and the Sekonic L-358 (with the PW module since it was on sale as a bundle) instead. But all the AB fanboys & girls aside, they do seem to offer the best 'value' and flexibility at a modest entry fee.
Get em, see what works and what doesn't, and then replace them if you want. The DO seem to be limited in some of the softbox modfiers the Profotos and others have (like grids). The reason you don't see a huge used market is that a lot folks may just keep 'em even if they move up.
(And yeah, that last paragraph was as much for my own justification to move forward as it is to help you out
-Fleetwood Mac
Scott,
How do you shoot at 1/250 with yoiur 5D? I have a set of Alien Bees, and if I tyry using a shutter speed faser than 1/160 I have some sync issues.
Sam
Thank you very much, Scott, much appreciated!
Thanks, man!
I forgot to mention in this thread that I already do have and used many times the following lighting setup (also known as "Shay's Setup":-):
- two Sunpak Auto555EX "popato masher" battery operated flash heads
- two 40" brollyboxes (shoot-through umbrella), one silver 40" umbrella
- two PW receivers, 1 PW transmitter (4 channels)
- two 10' light stands (with heads)
- Sekonic L-308S Flashmate lightmeter
- Amvona Dynatran 12'x10' backdrop rack
- two 8'x12' collapsible backdrops (mixed-gray and white)
- 3'x5' 5-in-1 collapsible reflector/shade (gold/white, silver/black, translucent)
And just for the record:-)- Canon 580EX MarkII
- Stroboframe Press-T bracket
So I guess I'm kinda covered for portable scenarios, I'm looking for the studio only (i.e. AC power) lights. I mean, if they also can operate on a DC power that's fine too, but it's not a priority for me.I wonder if you can piggy-back the transmitters?
I mean - PWs work for a great distance (300ft at least), but they are expensive. However, several lights can be close to each other. So I wonder if I can use PW receiver to actiuvate an el-cheapo (EC) transmitter, which in its turn would trigger a bunch of EC recievers. i.e.
camera ==> PW transmitter
> PW reciever ==> EC tramsmitter ---> (EC recieviers cluster)
Very interesting - again!
You are a well of a good knowledge!
Well I'm sure they could if you drag your shutter speed. But for the most part, why would you want to? The direction of the light from the modeling lights will be the same as the flash. True you could get more of a 'tungsten look' overall, but it seems to me that you would want other light sources for your ambient light to achieve shadows, contrast, etc.
The OP in this thread is teased (a little) about hot lights. IMHO, in your case well placed hot lights could give you the ambient light you want, without having to buy extra strobes dialed down as fill and with all the modifiers (snoot, softbox, grid) needed to affect the flash output.
-Fleetwood Mac
For the test, I simply used the L-358 - no issues there.
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Believe it or not, you can shoot with a lot of ambient light in the room and not have it contribute to the exposure - a lot more than you might think. Would you believe that I had 4 x 40W florescent tubes going when these were shot (link)? Total contribution of these tubes to the exposure - 0.0%.
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Thanks Scott. That answers my question. Your max sync speed is 1/250. The 5D is limited to 1/200. I think I remember reading that with studio strobes you might need to adjust the shutter speed to below the rated camera sync speed? Of course in most situations using strobes the difference between 1/200, and 1/250 will be negligible.
Sorry about the 5D upgrade I gave you.
Sam
Misread post! Kinda missed the part about AF assist.
-Fleetwood Mac
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Gotcha, makes thanks! Appreciate the details!
I like the modelling lights on my Profoto's - they give me a great way to see how my light will affect the image. I'd rather use the modelling lights to get the vision before I start popping the strobes. I am not sure what the life is - how many flashes - but I can say the bulbs are pricey to replace.
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So Nik, would you have done anything differently now that you are set up? How do you feel now on the mono versus pack issue (I'm considering mixing actually)? I'm pretty sold on the Profoto as a brand with color temp reliability and reliability in general. Price, within reason, is not the issue (okay so no broncolor). I am currently building my studio (24 x 24) wired 110 and 220 with attached office with focus on fine art portraiture (full length individual and complicated group shots). Insights?
Profoto are wonderful lights.
I am a major believer in monolights as I witnessed the problems you can have when a pack source fails and you have to scramble for replacement lighting. With monolights, each light is totally independent and if they all fail simultaneously you have more problems than just lights. It is also easier to upgrade your lighting and it's easier to develop custom kits for specific needs. Monolights are also easier to distribute in a large setting.
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thanks for bringing this oldie back to life...
Gosh, I can't believe only 15 months ago I had pretty much nothing if you don't count two sunpacks, one 580EXII on a cord and a lightmeter
OK, I must say that after a year-plus of a rather heavy usage of 8 studio lights my point of view changed rather drastically from what I apparently had beforehand.
Let me get you a run down on my current setup and highlight pros and cons.
Studio Space
I'm using the biggest room in my house as a studio. My house is two-stories and this room has a "cathedral ceiling", starting at 10ft at the front door and ending up at 22 ft at its highest point (that's where the backdrop is). I would say this height is a major advantage (more on this below).
The length of this space is 22 ft, which is barely enough for a full height shots. I still can make it, but I basically have to press my back into the wall, especially for the tall girls (runway models on the heels can be pretty tall, you know:-). Still 50mm on a FF body can do it, I just need to be very careful (which is kinda a good thing in any case:-).
The biggest limitation for me is the width. The room is non rectangular, it is kinda made out of two rectangles, one being 12ft long x 22 ft wide (at the door) and another being 10ft long x 15ft wide (at the backdrop). I put a screen in a wider section splitting it 15/7, thus creating a get-ready/change/makeup place for my models and thus making the "shooting space" a pure 15ft wide x 22ft long rectangle. I must say - 15ft is barely enough.
All in all in your case (24ftx24ft) you should be in a much better shape, provided your ceiling is high enough.
Lights Type
Since you read this thread from the very start you may remember I was originally very opposed to the idea of the monolights. My reasoning at the time was:
- they are heavier than heads, hence more load on the stands booms, hence heavier/bulkier/more expensive grip equipment is needed;
- I like the idea of having one power source, especially the type I can control remotely.
Well, the life (and all the smart guys here who shared their wisdom with me- reliability
- price
If the money were not the problem I would probably go with the brick+head solution, since my original POV is still valid. However the practicality of the monolights and the fund limitation finally made it no-brainer.If one monolight goes out - one light goes out. If one power brick goes out - all the lights attached to it are gone. Hence the need to use it in one-for-one or one-for-two setup, which leads me to the next point:
Those power bricks are FRIGGING EXPENSIVE
I mean, it's a rather costly enterprise the way it is (I think I spent way more than ten grand for all the various studio equipment just last year alone), but a good power source can cost half of that amount ALONE. Henceforth, considering the reliability, I would have to buy like at least four of them, if not eight?
Adjustable/Proportional/Tracking Modeling Light
All my lights have this option, yet I don't use it. Like never. Maaaaaybe one time, and I could easily go without it. They are always either at max or switched off. Helps focusing and creates more perceptible lighting pattern.
I don't think any good lights come without it, but it's really not an issue.
Remote Control and Triggering
Control
That's a big one, actually. Remember, one of reasons I wanted the power brick based solution was to have a complete control over every light in one easily accessible location (computer, preferably) - as opposed to running to every light and adjust it manually.
Well, since I couldn't afford the bricks, I went without it. Yes, it is a bit of a hassle to fine tune the setup. However, with practice it goes rather quickly. I tend to use the same power settings over and over, so in most cases it's really a matter of minutes.
Triggering
I was dead set on using PocketWizards right off the bat. There are other solutions on the market (Radior poppers, AB proprietary ones, etc.). I have chosen PW, thus far it was working pretty good. You may need to replace/recharge the batteries occasionally, but that's about it. Last year one of my oldest units (5-6 years old) died. Well, I went ahead and got two new ones. The others work fine, even the siblings of the deceased. And I like the form-factor of the Mini TT1 :-)
Last But Not Least: Brand
Oooh, Lord... "To Bee or Not To Bee: that *is* Da Question"
I currently have a mix of ProFotos and ABs, namely
- ProFoto Compact-R 600 and 300 (purchased as a kit)
- AlienBee 4xAB800 and 2xAB400 - purchased in several steps (headsup: it's best to buy in fours, you'll have 20% discount on ALL the accessories to go into that order)
ProFotos have PW receiver built-in, ABs take PW via mini-to-mini cable ($9 in a local Radio Shack) and they all can be used as optical slaves as is (which I do quite often in the studio since I still don't have enough PW units to cover them all - I'm one short:-)I would compare my mix of lights with the mix of bodies I have: 5D Mark II and 50D. First is sure nice, but it only takes more expensive and bulkier EF lenses, batteries are more expensive, etc.
ProFotos are very nice, can take huge modifiers and essentially are pro grade. You can feel a nice warmth inside when you handle them. Yet they are heavy, more expensive as the units and their accessories cost a fortune.
ABs are cheaper, plastiky and can only go so far on the size of modifiers. There is no way I could have attached my 7ft octabox on them.
They are light-weighted, I have no problems taking them to the beach or to the woods, they seem to withstand the transportation well.
And the accessories... Man... They are very inexpensive, yet a very good quality (way better than Chimera's IMHO). Yes, ProFoto's are nicer, but you will pay through the nose
I can't tell you about the light consistency, be it power or color temperature wise. I never did any solid measurements. For what I do with these lights(models/portraits/fashion shows) they are totally adequate.
What If...
...what if I had all the money in the world, or more specifically, unlimited grant money which I could only spend on studio/equipment
- bigger (way bigger) studio with the hard floors and drive-in access
- Two independent solutions, one for studio, one for location
- Studio:
- Location:
HTHProFotos heads with bricks (1-for-2), tethered to a laptop. Probably a ceiling-based rail system.
ABs are fine, but I would get 2xAB1600 and 4xAB800
Well, it is a drive-in space (8 x 10 garage door) which is good and somewhere down the line I'll replace the ugly solid garage door that I have to install to meet energy code with a commercial all-glass one for a huge available light softbox. With in-floor radiant heat, it's such overkill. I also have one north window in the studio area.
Anyway ... Yeah, the ceiling height is going to be an issue I know - 9 feet - although I've got some ideas on work-arounds.
I've been looking at 1200 w/s setups that dial way down in power with integrated pocketwizards, and building my own huge softboxes and wall-of-light setups (ala Dean Collins). Would you agree that 2400 w/s is overkill in most situations, and if you needed that much light, you might be better served by doubling up, i.e. it's better to have more "smaller" lights than fewer monstrous ones to increase flexibility?
I'm not sure on this given my ideas about creating, and trying to recreate, natural light like this ... http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=129578 ... as well as more complicated dramatic lighting.
And have you had issues with recycling time on your monos?
Thoughts?
Cool! Warm floor must be great up north. Here in socal I would be mostly concerned about AC :-)
This is *serious* problem. Let me show you why.
Here is an example of kinda extreme lighting and extreme angle:
The backdrop part visible in the upper right corner of the image is probably at 15ft high, if not 20.
I'm not saying you will be always shooting like that, but at some point you would like to, and not having such an option would be frustrating to say the least...:cry
I'm not even talking of a sheer impossibility to use a proper hair light in 9ft high room...
Custom modifiers would definitely save you a few grand$. I would also say coupling less powerful lights may have their advantages, albeit not always.
I don't shoot in strobo mode, so I don't have recycle time problem. However, I know that if you want to shoot at a very high rate (3..5fps) you would have to go with a a very high end solution which may be rather expensive (or a custom solution that require a lot of DYI).
HTH
When I upgrade I will either go with the most Powerful Paul Buff White Lightning's asi have had to turn down a few jobs over theyears due to NOT enuff POWER in lighting.....of course I live in the Air CApital and getting calls to shoot a plane can and does happen and I just do not have the power right now to fill a hangar with light...................
In my opinon for studio lighting PW's are over kill and over priced....it is simply a trigger........I have been using the the $22 sets of ebay from photgearok and they work like a charm and have no problems with them.....if I were able to contol the lighting ratios off the triggers then taht would be something else to think a bout, but since you can't......I look for saving money with a system that will still work great.
1) turning jobs down due to the lack of lights? no place to rent? damn...:-( :cry
2) I agree that PW are overkill for studio-only setup. Quite often you can simply go with one cord + optical slaves alone.
However, as I shoot in location about 50% of time, sometimes I'm rather far away from my lights. I do trust PWs will do the job no matter what. And since I do have them already I use them in the studio, too...
You ought to have a look at Joe McNally's books. With 5 lights and some flash heads, you should be able to come up with something creative.