>>> LPS#20 - Feedback Thread

DoctorItDoctorIt vrooom!Administrators Posts: 11,947 moderator
edited February 13, 2008 in The Dgrin Challenges
Here's your official feedback thread for LPS20, Face or Hands

Your semifinalists were:
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=82170


And here the top 10 as I selected them:

annnna8888 - innocence
Now this is a great face! Very catchy and compelling eyes, warm and vibrant color, a bit of diagonal line for interesting composition, love it.

bgaras2001 - tickling the ivory
And in perfect harmony with above, here we have perfect hands! They're in motion, just as hands should be. The monochrome conversion is excellent, good shadows and light add to the movement. Only reason I didn't choose it as first was it had just a bit less emotion (innocence made me smile :D)

darkdragon - Freedom?
Similar to innocence, I'm drawn to eyes, and we have a very strong central eye here. I like that it breaks the "traditional" rules of photography and that strong eye is dead center in the photo. Otherwise perfect exposure and detail.

photogmomma - pruney fingers
I'm a sucker for excellent use of shallow depth-of-field. The monochrome conversion wasn't my favorite, a bit dark for my taste, especially in what I see as a playful photo, but nonetheless another photo that made me smile.

ifocus - Strong Direction
Very well executed. I like subjects that pop out of dark backgrounds. A good model selection, the lines and shadows of these hands tell a story.

kwalsh - In Your Face
Very creative, very different. It has pop and just enough color. Well done, unique.

PSDude - The Photographer
The unique crop really worked for this shot. Good use of space - this face has some room, and it makes me wonder about the setting (I like that).

Awais Yaqub - I was just like you hahaha
Classic. Portrait. Emotive, colorful, real.

tinfish - Cleansing
Another hand in action. Only reason it's lower on the list is that the water action is almost as prominent as the hand, a bit more detail on the hand would have clinched the theme better.

noeltykay - mugshot
this shot was so simple that it worked. I do wish it was sharper and the subject had a bit more pop in the processing, but the execution and expression captured are excellent. Another good example of how a dead center subject can work.
Erik
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]

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Comments

  • DoctorItDoctorIt vrooom! Administrators Posts: 11,947 moderator
    edited January 22, 2008
    I'm on a roll, so here are my quick comments on the final top 10, as tallied by all us judges...

    bgaras2001 - tickling the ivory
    (see above) glad almost all of us agreed on this one

    sherstone - The Collection
    Yup, these were hands. Great idea, great processing. I usually like very "made" photos, but in this case, where the topics were faces, hands, things with such strong emotion, that this just came off as a cartoon. A well done one, mind you, but I'm entitled to my opinion. :D

    tinfish - Cleansing
    (see above)

    Jet - She's moving tomorrow; our last day together
    A great photo. Simple, saying a lot with trying too hard, good classic composition of the main focus on a third, good color. I just wanted the hands to be more prominent to get my vote.

    Awais Yaqub - I was just like you hahaha
    (see above)

    ifocus - Strong Direction
    (see above)

    quark - Surprize
    This photo was just off my own top 10. How else could you do a mime except monochrome? But the conversion didn't have enough pop, too much gray, not enough white. Great composition and the "floating" hands are really perfect.

    annnna8888 - innocence
    (see above)

    darkdragon - Freedom?
    (see above)

    Greensquared - One in a Million
    A great idea and execution of the theme. But similar to the hands in a jar, this was a bit staged to really pull emotion from me, and that is why I passed on it. Also, the color could have had more pop. Although, perhaps it was meant to be flat to make the real and doll faces blend together?


    *You'll see the judges agreed on quite a few photos. In all, only 22 photos out of 86 entered received a vote from the judges.
    Erik
    moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]

  • DoctorItDoctorIt vrooom! Administrators Posts: 11,947 moderator
    edited January 22, 2008
    Also, one general comment I'd like to make is great I think the "unofficial" feedback thread has become - essentially surpassing our often lowly and neglected official thread. I've noticed over the past couple months, in the period where Shay and I were swamped with our personal lives and actually managed to completely miss the feedback for a couple rounds, you all really took it upon yourselves to share and critique each other.

    Bravo, for the excellent community that has been self-organized here. clap.gif
    Erik
    moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]

  • AndyAndy Bicameral New YorkRegistered Users Posts: 50,154 Major grins
    edited January 22, 2008
    Congrats to the 10 winners this round, and to all of the entrants. Here are some of my thoughts.
    - Andy
    DoctorIt wrote:
    Well folks, that's it, I give you the final 10 qualifiers from our open-entry contest rounds! Congratulations are in order for...

    clap.gif

    246121873-Th.jpg
    bgaras2001 - tickling the ivory
    classic motion in a still photo, always gets me going, always will
    246121843-Th.jpg
    sherstone - The Collection
    Immediately struck me as eerie and spooky. Well composed, put together, lit, shot.

    246121756-Th.jpg
    tinfish - Cleansing
    I did not vote for this one - while technically good, it did not grab me

    246121718-Th.jpg
    Jet - She's moving tomorrow; our last day together
    Emotion. I stared, wondered, thought. It gave me my money's worth.

    246121788-Th.jpg
    Awais Yaqub - I was just like you hahaha
    Excellent portrait. If you are going to do a face-on, face-forward shot, then hit me with it! I love everything about this portrait and this man.

    246121768-Th.jpg
    ifocus - Strong Direction
    I didn't vote for this one either - the hands are telling a story yes, but it didn't grab me as much as some of the other shots.

    246121795-Th.jpg
    quark - Surprize
    Angle, lighting, composition, subject's expression, all good. I would have adjusted the crop to allow some breathing room on the right to make it go from really good to excellent.

    246121696-Th.jpg
    annnna8888 - innocence
    Of this style, of the entries, I preferred "Ryan" and "The Look" by Paul and MrsCue instead, I thought both of those were superior in lighting, emotion, pose, composition.

    246121744-Th.jpg
    darkdragon - Freedom?
    was not in my top 10, but close.

    246121816-Th.jpg
    Greensquared - One in a Million

    Loved the idea, composition, expression - this photo is a keeper :)
  • AndyAndy Bicameral New YorkRegistered Users Posts: 50,154 Major grins
    edited January 22, 2008
    DoctorIt wrote:
    Also, one general comment I'd like to make is great I think the "unofficial" feedback thread has become - essentially surpassing our often lowly and neglected official thread. I've noticed over the past couple months, in the period where Shay and I were swamped with our personal lives and actually managed to completely miss the feedback for a couple rounds, you all really took it upon yourselves to share and critique each other.

    Bravo, for the excellent community that has been self-organized here. clap.gif
    15524779-Ti.gif
  • aktseaktse Major grins Registered Users Posts: 1,928 Major grins
    edited January 22, 2008
    Please give me a week for the feedback for everyone. I'm just currently slammed with work, etc., but I will provide feedback for everyone.

    I went into panic mode once I discovered that I was one of the judges. In addition, I solicited the help of six photographers for their opinions on the photos. While our top ten might not have been identical, we all shared common photos. Over numerous e-mails and IMs, they help me narrow down my choices, convinced me to add more back into my list, and most importantly, provided their critiques on their top picks. I will be providing this feedback as well when I have the chance.

    Until I have a chance to post... here's my top ten (in no particular order).

    246058484-L.jpg


    This list was chaning until the very last minute... Congrats to everyone who entered!
  • photogmommaphotogmomma Enormous giggles Registered Users Posts: 1,644 Major grins
    edited January 22, 2008
    photogmomma - pruney fingers
    I'm a sucker for excellent use of shallow depth-of-field. The monochrome conversion wasn't my favorite, a bit dark for my taste, especially in what I see as a playful photo, but nonetheless another photo that made me smile.

    DoctorIT, thank you not only for voting for me, but also for your excellent feedback. I actually worred a bit about the darkness, but coudlnt' get the pruneyness to show up well enough any other way without major photoshopping (which I was trying to avoid). I did try it in color, but felt it didn't pop as much as I'd like - there were details that were missed that showed up in the monotone. I do plan on playing with it more - I agree it could have been better.... But other than post processing, it came out how I planned.

    Thanks again! I really appreciate it!!!
  • aktseaktse Major grins Registered Users Posts: 1,928 Major grins
    edited January 23, 2008
    Feedback on page 1 (entries 2-10)
    First of all, I just wanted to say congratulations to everyone who entered. It takes a tremendous amount of courage to show your work, let alone have it compete against other people. My hats off to all of you…

    My approach was most likely different than other judges. In addition to having my own subjective opinions about the photographs, I also asked for help from photographers (most not a regular member of dgrin) and requested that they provide their top favorites and comments on individual photos. I wanted to prevent myself from missing something important or from being bias against something just because I didn’t understand the image. I guess you can say that my friends sanity checked my picks

    I went through all the images and marked down any photo that caught my eye. As the day progressed, I removed and added photos due to the various e-mails and IM discussions on the merits of the individual photos. While no one had identical favorites, there were certain photos that were favored by nearly everyone. The choices seem to be based on technical ability, emotional impact, ability to convey a message/story and the strength of the theme (face/hands).

    I agreed with most of the opinions and disagreed with some of them. In the end, the final ten selections are all mine. Just remember that this feedback is the opinion of one individual, that everyone has different opinions and you can’t please everyone.

    Participants in LPS need to show work that you are proud of, shoot to your strengths, display some technical proficiency, and remember that placement in the contest is subjective. The most important judge in the contest, after all, is yourself.

    #2: The Beat Within
    This is composition that holds attention. However, I found it a bit on the tad on the dark side and my focus was the red drumstick, then the bright lights and not the face. I felt that other photos had stronger connection to the theme and this could have been an try to something like “rhythm” or “concentration”

    #3: Unoriginal? Probably.
    A very good portrait – good expression, lighting, angles. I think the eyes need to be sharper and show more life. I also wanted a bit more separation between the stubble/beard and the darkness in the corners.

    #4: I Know What You Did Last Summer
    This was one of the top favorites one of the people that I asked. It’s a haunting image and makes the viewer wondering about the story behind it, but a little too much mystery for me.

    #5: Spotlight
    Nice B&W work; sharp, clean and in focus. I like the concept, but I didn’t like the tilt of the head. I think it would have been stronger if the angle of the head was different, and maybe a showing a bit of neck.

    #6: Mugshot
    This went on/off/on during my first pass through the photos because I liked it. In general, nice work. Technically, it’s a bit soft, especially around the eyes. It would have been stronger if there was more personality/expression – laughter/ anger/etc.

    #7: Controversy
    Good idea, but I needed more expression in the subject. I can’t tell if she’s just happy, or she’s just talking to someone with a smile on her face. Also, I think the background needs to be taken down a notch (just a tad), but it provides good separation between the it and the subject.

    #8: Polly Want A Cracker
    This was on the top faves list of about three people. And another thought it was too much gimmicky. Different people, different opinions... I like the hand motions and the expression of the faces. This was on my top lists made it through quite a few rounds of discussion. And the colors work and pop! Well done…

    #9: tickleing the ivory
    This made it to everyone’s list and was the top of my list.
    From one of the people that I asked: “[/B]excellent composition. Great lines that lead the eyes to allow the feeling of motion. One really feels the hands playing the piano. Great contrast with excellent balance with the highlights to the shadows.”

    #10: Nightmare Visage
    This made it the fav list of one person that I asked. They loved the uniqueness of the photo as well as the color. I find it too dark and would like more highlights, but then again, that might not be the impact that you’re trying to achieve.

    more to come when I have a chance...
  • sherstonesherstone ½ here Vancouver Island, BC., CanadaRegistered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 2,356 Major grins
    edited January 24, 2008
    DoctorIt wrote:
    sherstone - The Collection
    Yup, these were hands. Great idea, great processing. I usually like very "made" photos, but in this case, where the topics were faces, hands, things with such strong emotion, that this just came off as a cartoon. A well done one, mind you, but I'm entitled to my opinion. :D

    Yes you most certainly are entitled -- and I thank you whole heartedly for it!
    It is comments like this that stick in a persons head and make them push harder for that elusive universal story. I will push. I will stretch. I will think. I will respond by growing even further.

    oh bother -- thats just too damn dramatic sounding...

    Thanks Erik for your opinion!:D
  • sherstonesherstone ½ here Vancouver Island, BC., CanadaRegistered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 2,356 Major grins
    edited January 24, 2008
    Andy wrote:
    Immediately struck me as eerie and spooky. Well composed, put together, lit, shot.

    Thanks Andy. I am pleased with your reaction to it.
  • DoctorItDoctorIt vrooom! Administrators Posts: 11,947 moderator
    edited January 24, 2008
    aktse wrote:
    In addition to having my own subjective opinions about the photographs, I also asked for help from photographers...
    Sweet, I got a multi-judge for the price of one! I'm asking you for more help in the future! :D

    thanks again thumb.gif
    Erik
    moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]

  • MrsCueMrsCue Earthling Registered Users Posts: 412 Major grins
    edited January 27, 2008
    DoctorIt wrote:
    Sweet, I got a multi-judge for the price of one! I'm asking you for more help in the future! :D

    thanks again thumb.gif

    I got a vote from 2 judges! Yay! Thank you! clap.gif
    Now, I'm confused. I wonder if 3 judges out of 4 voted for me how come I didn't get through?
    In a way I'm not bothered about getting through after seeing the few entries in the semi, (they're awesome!), but, I would be very interested to know what exactly it was that prevented mine from getting through. Especially as I seemed so close this time.
    Canon EOS 40D, Canon EOS 350D, 50mm 1.8 MKII prime lens, 17-40mm f/4 L lens, 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS lens, 430 EX speedlite, Tungsten Continuous studio light, Pocket Wizards, Gary Fong Lightsphere, Stofen Omni bounce diffuser, 5in1 reflector

  • DoctorItDoctorIt vrooom! Administrators Posts: 11,947 moderator
    edited January 27, 2008
    MrsCue wrote:
    I got a vote from 2 judges! Yay! Thank you! clap.gif
    Now, I'm confused. I wonder if 3 judges out of 4 voted for me how come I didn't get through?
    You had it right the first time... 2 judges voted for you (officially).

    I won't go into specific detail, but it's really quite simple. It's all based on points - you could get votes from all 4 judges, but only as their #10 pick, in which case you'd only get 4 points (1 per judge). If just one judge picked you as their #1 choice, you'd have 10 points.

    Clear as mud?
    Erik
    moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]

  • TentacionTentacion Click On ! Registered Users Posts: 940 Major grins
    edited January 27, 2008
    aktse wrote:
    Please give me a week for the feedback for everyone. I'm just currently slammed with work, etc., but I will provide feedback for everyone.

    I went into panic mode once I discovered that I was one of the judges. In addition, I solicited the help of six photographers for their opinions on the photos.

    My Biggest thought process going on after reading this....Who were the OTHER photographers you solicted help from? Were the other photographers unbiased, were they "acquaintances/friends of the entrants", were they members of dgrin?

    Forgive my boldness here, but I don't think judges should be alllowed to solicit the "help" of other photographers, for more reasons than one. It is the responsibility of the judge chosen to judge the photo(s) soley on his own merit/opinion/professionalism/expertise, and if the chosen judge feels he/she cannot complete the task assigned for more reasons than one, then they should renege on the assignment.

    That would be like my CEO telling me to pick 10 people for "layoff" and I solicit the help of my secretary or admin..etc., who knows what is their methodolgy of thinking and why they are choosing the people selected.

    If I remember correctly we had one judge disqualify himself solely on the basis that he judged an incorrect photo of an entrant.

    But that is just my opinion, and maybe no one agrees, and perhaps I'll get slack for voicing my opinion. But I just had to say it.
    You're only as good as your next photo....
    One day, I started writing, not knowing that I had chained myself for life to a noble but merciless master. When God hands you a gift, he also hands you a whip; and the whip is intended solely for self-flagellation...I'm here alone in my dark madness, all by myself with my deck of cards --- and, of course, the whip God gave me." Truman Capote
  • DoctorItDoctorIt vrooom! Administrators Posts: 11,947 moderator
    edited January 28, 2008
    Tentacion wrote:
    But that is just my opinion, and maybe no one agrees, and perhaps I'll get slack for voicing my opinion. But I just had to say it.
    You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But you asked for it, so here's your slack:

    I don't really appreciate you voicing a negative opinion of our randomly selected and very gracious volunteer judge.

    Just so you're clear on the process, I give these judges less than 24 hours notice to come up with a list of photos based on no guidelines at all. That's the beauty, we don't have any criteria.

    There is nothing at all wrong with a judge discussing the photos and bouncing ideas off other photographers. In the end, it was aktse who submitted her top10 list to me and that is all the matters. The whole idea of using several different judges each round is to get as wide an array of opinions as possible to avoid any bias throughout this long competition.

    Perhaps I can better make my point like this: if this bothers you, perhaps you would rather I just do all the judging myself (or Shay, or Andy, any individual for that matter)? No other influences, just me picking the big winner...

    make sense?
    Erik
    moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]

  • MrsCueMrsCue Earthling Registered Users Posts: 412 Major grins
    edited January 28, 2008
    DoctorIt wrote:
    You had it right the first time... 2 judges voted for you (officially).

    I won't go into specific detail, but it's really quite simple. It's all based on points - you could get votes from all 4 judges, but only as their #10 pick, in which case you'd only get 4 points (1 per judge). If just one judge picked you as their #1 choice, you'd have 10 points.

    Clear as mud?

    Ahhh yeah. Cool thank you.
    Canon EOS 40D, Canon EOS 350D, 50mm 1.8 MKII prime lens, 17-40mm f/4 L lens, 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS lens, 430 EX speedlite, Tungsten Continuous studio light, Pocket Wizards, Gary Fong Lightsphere, Stofen Omni bounce diffuser, 5in1 reflector

  • TentacionTentacion Click On ! Registered Users Posts: 940 Major grins
    edited January 28, 2008
    DoctorIt wrote:
    You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But you asked for it, so here's your slack:

    I don't really appreciate you voicing a negative opinion of our randomly selected and very gracious volunteer judge.

    Just so you're clear on the process, I give these judges less than 24 hours notice to come up with a list of photos based on no guidelines at all. That's the beauty, we don't have any criteria.

    There is nothing at all wrong with a judge discussing the photos and bouncing ideas off other photographers. In the end, it was aktse who submitted her top10 list to me and that is all the matters. The whole idea of using several different judges each round is to get as wide an array of opinions as possible to avoid any bias throughout this long competition.

    Perhaps I can better make my point like this: if this bothers you, perhaps you would rather I just do all the judging myself (or Shay, or Andy, any individual for that matter)? No other influences, just me picking the big winner...

    make sense?

    You know Erik, I have heard lots of innuendos about your "Bedside" manner, and that it leaves much to be desired, and if I get "tossed" from DGRIN for expressing my opinion than so be it, as apparently you are one of the DGRIN Gods.

    I don't really appreciate the "tone" of writing that you have taken with me, and I have NOT expressed a "negative" opinion...as a Matter of Fact, I am the only one with guts enough to voice my opinion and not whisper in the background, then so be it.

    You as a "moderator" of DGRIN are supposed to have some decorum of professionalism, as this is a Family owned Profit Making Business site.

    You have apparently misread my thoughts here. I DID Not say that ONE judge should do all the "judging"

    Perhaps I can better make my point like this: if this bothers you, perhaps you would rather I just do all the judging myself (or Shay, or Andy, any individual for that matter)? No other influences, just me picking the big winner...


    Instead, my WHOLE thought process was that:

    "If the judge that is picked CANNOT complete the assigned task based on their own Opionion, Professionalism, Expertise, and Criteria, without employing the aid of "other" photographers (who are not the other judges), THEN perhaps that selected judge should back out graciously due to other committments."

    In my opinion, the list that was submitted by the "judge" was NOT their own top ten, but a collaboration of opinions/critiques. So to me it does matter. If I am to be judged by 5 judges, then let 5 judges critique me, and not their assistants also, there may be NO criteria but there are certainly scruples.
    There is nothing at all wrong with a judge discussing the photos and bouncing ideas off other photographers. In the end, it was aktse who submitted her top10 list to me and that is all the matters.

    Oh and for the record, I was NOT attacking the judge, as I have NO idea who that person is. TYVM.

    Have a Great One, and best wishes
    Donna
    You're only as good as your next photo....
    One day, I started writing, not knowing that I had chained myself for life to a noble but merciless master. When God hands you a gift, he also hands you a whip; and the whip is intended solely for self-flagellation...I'm here alone in my dark madness, all by myself with my deck of cards --- and, of course, the whip God gave me." Truman Capote
  • aktseaktse Major grins Registered Users Posts: 1,928 Major grins
    edited January 28, 2008
    Tentacion wrote:
    "If the judge that is picked CANNOT complete the assigned task based on their own Opionion, Professionalism, Expertise, and Criteria, without employing the aid of "other" photographers (who are not the other judges), THEN perhaps that selected judge should back out graciously due to other committments."
    I want to make one point clear. I did not have a problem making my choices. I submitted the top ten photos that appealed to me.

    I’m slightly perplexed that I’m raising eye-brows for something that I did to be as FAIR and UNBIAS as possible. ne_nau.gif Would people have been happier if I just went through and picked my gut instant instead of a detail analysis each photo? Should I have done a binary search through the photos? Should I have assigned each photo a points and use that method? Asking for opinions from others was the hardest method because I had to justify my picks.

    In reality, I ruffled some feathers about a few entries that I left off the list and had to defend one or two with a few that I left in. Conclusion: everyone has a different opinion.

    I would have gotten the similar feedback if I read the LPS threads (unofficial feedback/working threads).

    I’m sorry that you disliked my methods, but I don’t see anything wrong with asking for feedback; it just gave me another set of eyes… And honestly, the pedigree of the photographers that I asked should not matter. Art is in the eye of the beholder and a good photograph stands on its own merit no matter if you’re a newbie or a professional.

    If you have a problem with this, please feel free to let me know.

    Question for the group: If you were the selected judge or have been a judge... what method would you have used? How would you make your choices? Gut feeling? Point method? Etc.
    Tentacion wrote:
    That would be like my CEO telling me to pick 10 people for "layoff" and I solicit the help of my secretary or admin..etc., who knows what is their methodolgy of thinking and why they are choosing the people selected.
    And the record, in larger companies during layoffs, the CEO delegates the decisions. The decision might not go to the admin, but to a manager or supervisor and can be a discussion process of the merits and worth of each "asset".

    I’ll try and get the rest of the feedback out this week and I'm sorry for the delay.
  • kwalshkwalsh Major grins Registered Users Posts: 223 Major grins
    edited January 28, 2008
    Tentacion wrote:
    Forgive my boldness here, but I don't think judges should be alllowed to solicit the "help" of other photographers, for more reasons than one. It is the responsibility of the judge chosen to judge the photo(s) soley on his own merit/opinion/professionalism/expertise, and if the chosen judge feels he/she cannot complete the task assigned for more reasons than one, then they should renege on the assignment.
    I don't think I agree with your position on this. Who is to say that the judges themselves are not biased??? I've even seen a judge in a past competition indicate that landscape photographs aren't really worth anything because anyone who can get up early enough in the morning can take one. That sounds pretty biased to me. I would have been happier had he/she solicited input from other photographers...

    I'd love for someone not a member of dgrin to have some input, I find that sometimes it *seems* (and again, I have absolutely no idea if it is the case) that people become biased towards images that showed up early in a competition or that an entrant solicits opinions on and gets people to participate in the design of. Someone looking at the entries cold wouldn't be subject to that bias. Or perhaps that bias is valid - this is a photographic community and if a judge feels more connected to a photo because he/she participated in its conception is that bad or good?

    Personally, I'm glad you expressed your opinion, and I hope you don't feel you're getting jumped on. In the end more formal judging standards would perhaps give more consistency to this contest, but there are twenty qualifying rounds and as the Russians' used to say "quantity has a quality all its own". I'm pretty sure everyone has had a chance to be judged fairly over twenty entires even if each individual round can appear a bit random. Within each round I've been surprised by what gets picked and what gets left out. Sometimes I can't agree at all, other times I see a photo I overlooked in a new light. It is not clear to me that a more draconian process would improve things. Check out the contests at Fred Miranda where a single judge evaluates the entires and the lack of consistency is still there.

    The point is, there are always biases and the guys a dgrin have decided there shall be no guidelines at all and I think that is an interesting approach which seems to be working as well as contests that have lots of guidelines.

    Finally, from your response to Erik it appears that you didn't intend your post to be sharp to any degree, but as a third party reading it I'd point out that as is often the case in emails/posts something must have been lost in the translation - I also detect what appears to be a very negative tone towards the judge in question. First you state a criteria of yours for judging to be fact (i.e. they must judge on their own) when in fact no such criteria exists, then you ridicule the thought of soliciting other people's opinions with a very weak analogy to the business world, and then you conclude with the word "renege" which definitely has negative connotations. From your response to Erik it seems you didn't intend any such message, but I also felt like you were inappropriately attacking the judge in your first post. And I can sympathize, I frequently can't seem to get my message across correctly in this medium either!

    Anyway, the take away is that the dgrin folks have created a contest with almost no rules except the deadline and the image size and it is working pretty darn smoothly. So I can see no reason why they need to complicate it more!

    All the best,

    Ken
  • DoctorItDoctorIt vrooom! Administrators Posts: 11,947 moderator
    edited January 28, 2008
    Tentacion wrote:
    You know Erik, I have heard lots of innuendos about your "Bedside" manner, and that it leaves much to be desired, and if I get "tossed" from DGRIN for expressing my opinion than so be it, as apparently you are one of the DGRIN Gods.
    Actually, I'm just a volunteer helper. I told you that you were entitled to an opinion, but when you voice it as you did, I am certainly entitled to a rebuttal.
    I don't really appreciate the "tone" of writing that you have taken with me, and I have NOT expressed a "negative" opinion...as a Matter of Fact, I am the only one with guts enough to voice my opinion and not whisper in the background, then so be it.

    You as a "moderator" of DGRIN are supposed to have some decorum of professionalism, as this is a Family owned Profit Making Business site.
    Please do not twist Dgrin and SmugMug. Dgrin is a free, non-profit, public forum. I volunteer for Dgrin, not SmugMug. And again, see above, I don't get paid a nickel. I mop up this joint and I'm entitled to my opinion just as much as you. The difference is, I stay cool-headed about it while you attack my "bedside manner" and refer to some mysterious innuendos(???).
    You have apparently misread my thoughts here. I DID Not say that ONE judge should do all the "judging"
    Yes, I know. Please read what I wrote - it was an extreme counter example to make my point = more and varied judges gives a better less biased outcome.

    Instead, my WHOLE thought process was that:

    "If the judge that is picked CANNOT complete the assigned task based on their own Opionion, Professionalism, Expertise, and Criteria, without employing the aid of "other" photographers (who are not the other judges), THEN perhaps that selected judge should back out graciously due to other committments."

    In my opinion, the list that was submitted by the "judge" was NOT their own top ten, but a collaboration of opinions/critiques. So to me it does matter. If I am to be judged by 5 judges, then let 5 judges critique me, and not their assistants also, there may be NO criteria but there are certainly scruples.
    The rules have never specified how many judges will judge each round. So in this case, aktse recruited a few more. I think that's fantastic. If I had more time, I'd have a panel of 10 judges for each round - the more the better!

    Donna, I'm really sorry you are getting so bent out of shape about this. In each post, you have made reference to "getting slack" or "getting tossed from dgrin". I have never once indicated to you that your good-standing is in any sort of jeopardy, so, pardon my "bedside manner" again, but, just chill out!
    :D
    Erik
    moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]

  • DoctorItDoctorIt vrooom! Administrators Posts: 11,947 moderator
    edited January 28, 2008
    aktse wrote:
    If you have a problem with this, please feel free to let me know.
    No worries, you have done everything very correctly.

    You have graciously volunteered your time and you don't have to answer to anything here. If you receive any sort of further negative feedback about this matter, please direct it to me.

    thanks again!
    Erik
    moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]

  • aktseaktse Major grins Registered Users Posts: 1,928 Major grins
    edited January 28, 2008
    Feedback, page 2.
    11- The Evening News :
    A few of people that I spoke with loved this and some others didn’t (too cliché for them). It did make it make it on my list during my first pass and subsequent passes. I really like the skin tones, but in general, a bit too much post for this image (and I really love your work… a fan!). For something like this, I don’t like the middle ground – either all the way with the post or realistic.

    12- Here's Your Sign.....
    I think this would have been better with a tighter crop. The facial expression did catch my eye, but I don’t think it stood enough alone by just expression without him holding the card. I like the use of the color (blue clothes, blue background, in different tones, etc). It does meet the theme. It didn’t lead me to the next logical step – Why is he making the face? What is he thinking? He just looks a bit crazy (or drunk).

    13- Quest
    A very peaceful image and I like the DOF used to focus on his hands. However, the theme that jumps out at me is “peace” or serenity, and not hands/face. I don’t know if a different crop would be better or even taking it from a different angle would improve it.

    14- Conversations - Yielding to the Master's touch.
    This made it on a few lists. The exposure is nailed, it has good use of leading lines, good focus, good crop, good DOF. etc. This was on my list during the first pass, but didn’t make it further than that until someone informed me on how technical difficulties in taking this photo. It made it to a few more rounds, but not to my final one. A job well done! What could have done differently? Get a different judge. It’s a great photo… I just liked others more.

    15- Pondering Partisan Politics
    This made was high on my list, but not really on any other ones which surprised me. Really surprised me and still haven't figured that one out yet… It was perfectly on theme, showed great expression, made me wondering about what he was thinking… It’s a photo that stood on it’s own and made it through a few rounds of my cut. Nice job!

    16- The Collection
    This photo polarized people. People loved it or hated it – from excellent to Jeffrey Dahmler like… It made it to my top ten due to the execution, lighting and composition. It didn’t matter if you liked the subject, it caused a response from the viewer and made them pause and take note.

    17- One in a Million
    This was another one that you liked or didn’t like. The ones that liked it fall in the camp that like the idea and composition. The ones that didn’t like it thought it was too much of a cliché. I fall into the camp that liked it… I find that I like the blending of the doll to the baby, but in some ways, I want the focus to be on the baby more (maybe lighting?)

    18- Framed Wonderful.
    A wonderful, but simple composition. Good use lighting, and perfect use of framing. The eye on the left has a little too much shadow in that area and my eyes are drawn there (make the eye completely covered). This made it through my lists for a few rounds.

    19- Please shut up.
    You did a very nice job of BW conversion, but it’s lacking emotion and I really don’t know what to focus on. It’s a good photo, but not a strong photo. What are you trying to stay with the photo? What’s your intent other than being technical solid? Your title is “please shut up”, but without that, I couldn’t figure it out from your message.

    20- Rough Rider
    The title works well with the photo. I think it needs more personality, but it’s a interesting portrait, but I don’t look at him and find the desire to see more into him – what’s is he thinking? Where is he going?
  • AndyAndy Bicameral New YorkRegistered Users Posts: 50,154 Major grins
    edited January 28, 2008
    Ok let's not ruin the awesomeness of this feedback thread.

    Every LPS contestant should remember that those who work this contest are doing so out of their love of photography and they get zero remuneration save for the satisfaction of doing something nice for the photographic community of Dgrin.

    Feedback from contestants and judges and moderators is all welcome and encouraged. Attitudes and egos should be checked at the door.

    Let's get back to the contest now, shall we :D
  • sherstonesherstone ½ here Vancouver Island, BC., CanadaRegistered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 2,356 Major grins
    edited January 28, 2008
    aktse wrote:
    ... A job well done! What could have done differently? Get a different judge. It’s a great photo… I just liked others more.

    This statement made me smile and ponder... it could almost be said for any of the images that are oh so good but have been pushed into the back of a judges list because of others that the judge personally liked more.

    It is important to always remind ourselves that we are dealing with opinions and different tastes from each individual. What one person will love another will hate.
    aktse wrote:
    16- The Collection
    This photo polarized people. People loved it or hated it – from excellent to Jeffrey Dahmler like… It made it to my top ten due to the execution, lighting and composition. It didn’t matter if you liked the subject, it caused a response from the viewer and made them pause and take note.


    Along the same lines as above you say that it was either loved or hated each separate person reacting to it differently. I knew I was going to be sitting with a balancing act on which type of reaction it would illicit. The goal was to stand out among all the other faces and hands and make you not forget it. Thank you for putting into words what I hoped would be the result.

    One last thing -- It is actually very useful to hear feedback that encompassed more than one opinion its almost like having a room full of people all giving you a take on how an image makes them feel. I am pleased that you chose to ask for help.

    Thanks again for taking the time to type out your thoughts.

    Sean
  • aktseaktse Major grins Registered Users Posts: 1,928 Major grins
    edited January 29, 2008
    Page 3
    #21 - Trasmc - The Devil's Workshop
    First instinct… what am I looking at? And it makes me spend some more seconds looking at it. I had it in my top list and it stayed there (near the top of my list). Crisp, clear photo. It might have been better with a different tone of the hands, but in general a job well done. Another person really liked this as well.

    #22 - jziegler - Yawn!
    I think this photo poses more questions than answers – I find myself focusing on what’s causing the dog’s expression rather than the photo itself. The focus seems a bit off or maybe it’s just not as crisp as I want to be. In addition, the dog expression makes me a bit uncomfortable, but it’s on theme. And I find that the color districts from the face.

    #23 - AronNelson - shown
    -- picture removed, I don’t remember it from my memory. Sorry.

    #24 - mycaptures - The future of Musi
    On the top of one of the people that gave me feedback -- "love the almost fake looking hands, great use of sepia and depth of field". It made it through a few rounds of my list. The color is great, the focus is good and the main interest of the photo is indeed the hands. I think maybe a bit more motion blurr might have made it stronger (maybe???), but it’s really good as it. However, I had kept comparing it to the piano one and I personally liked that one better and that basically made the difference. Another judge might have see it the other way around.

    #25 - quark - Surprise!
    This was one that I was surprised to find that it made it to the top ten semi-finalist list – not because it’s not a deserving photo, but no one had it in the top of their lists or made very many comments about it. It basically shows that people have different opinions. It made it through a few rounds on my own list. I think the crop bothers me a little bit, but it’s strong image. When I shared the final list, they had no qualms about this being in the top ten.

    #26 - anwms1 - An Amazing World Awaits
    One of the comments that I received -- "I like it when a picture is able to tell a story and this one does it well. One can see the babies’ fascination. Though the cropping could of been a little tighter to avoid the blackouts in the upper right corner, it still am drawn to the babies eyes which is the point of the picture" This was on my list and made it through a few rounds before I finally removed it. Ultimately, it didn’t make it on my list because I liked other images more.

    #27 - PaulThomasMcKee – Ryan
    This was a toss up for me. On/off/on/off. It was basically in competition with “the Look” (finally had to choose “the look”) . This was on my #9/#10 for long while, and finally, it moved down to #11 as a result of personal taste. I think you did a really good job with this. Beautiful portrait. I would be proud of this work.

    #28 - eoren1 - Diamonds are a girls best friend
    This made my initial cut, but after some discussion on why I included it (fun concept), I had issues justifying my choice based on technical merits compared to some of the other photos. I’m still not quite sure if the focus should be on the fingers or the ring, but both need to be a bit sharper. Also, the bright white background draws my attention away from the main subject. Overall, a good concept, but needs a bit more post work to clean it up.

    #29 - Izzy Garavito - Remembrance of Things Past
    Another one that people disagreed upon…. Some loved it, some thought it was so-so (too cliché) and some didn’t see the story or the tears, but I got it and in the end, that’s what matters in the voting (this time!) What could be improved? People didn’t see the tears and I think it’s due to the selective coloring. I believe this was my #10 photo and was one that I got questioned on.

    #30 - Awais Yaqub - I was just like you hahaha...
    A got a few comments on it … from one person… “good subject matter and good details on the subjects face. I would of toned done the saturation a little but that would be it. Everything else is good”. He stands out, pops from the background. Simple and powerful.
  • NeilLNeilL B+R=M,B+G=C,R+G=Y Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited January 29, 2008
    Tentacion, I think you are doing all DGrin folk a service in bringing up these issues for discussion. Thank you.

    Although we all know we participate voluntarily, at whatever level, and for basically "selfish" reasons, that is to share, to dialogue, to learn, (to attract business to SmugMug!) etc, we also know that we invest some important personal capital in DGrin along with all that, which is of course then open to risk. By participating in a community which accepts us as members certain responsibilities and rights accrue to us. None of us should surrender the rights that are due to us arising out of our participation here.

    As democratic an environment as possible seems to me to be the right ideal for a place like DGrin. Obviously, DGrin would not exist, nor function to such a high level of benefit for us all, without the hundreds of us who come here frequently. We ordinary members make DGrin actually happen, not the players of other roles such as the moderators, who would have no ship to sail without us. In my view, the appropriate relationship of those other roles to members is one of service, and not control, judgment, moralising, one-upmanship and the like. I must say that I was struck from the beginning of my experience at DGrin by the slick, abrasive, take-it-or-leave-it manner of some of these same uber roleplayers. Very distasteful. Very unfortunate. And very out of touch with the realities of their own dependence on us!

    If the "management" of DGrin is going to offer competitions, then it is clearly their responsibility to us to safeguard our interests if we participate in them. One safeguard is the transparency of judging. We have a right to that, as I have said above, by virtue of our participation, and by virtue of the investment of ourselves we are making, and of our contribution to the existence and success of DGrin.

    Tentacion, you are quite in order, in my opinion, to insist that the process involved in judging is made transparent to us, and that this kind of information is not peevishly, reluctantly and in a piecemeal fashion tossed at us when we "dare" to ask about it. (We should certainly not be exposed to anything which has the suggestion of punitive pay-back, even if only in tone of voice.) I would go further and argue that indeed we members must have input into the judging process, through for example a poll choosing judges, whose relevant statistics would be presented to us.

    There is no doubt that DGrin-SmugMug is one of the better environments for photography aficionados on the internet. In many ways it comes close to being perfect. My appreciation and gratitude to those with the vision and commitment to bring us so much are unbounded! Even so, it is we members who are the real owners, and it is to us that I offer my fullest congratulations!
    "Snow. Ice. Slow!" "Half-winter. Half-moon. Half-asleep!"

    http://www.behance.net/brosepix
  • DoctorItDoctorIt vrooom! Administrators Posts: 11,947 moderator
    edited January 29, 2008
    NeilL wrote:
    I must say that I was struck from the beginning of my experience at DGrin by the slick, abrasive, take-it-or-leave-it manner of some of these same uber roleplayers. Very distasteful. Very unfortunate. And very out of touch with the realities of their own dependence on us!
    eek7.gif

    You're kidding, right?
    Erik
    moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]

  • AndyAndy Bicameral New YorkRegistered Users Posts: 50,154 Major grins
    edited January 29, 2008
    Folks - you are participating in an opportunity to win $25K worth of prizes in photography. It's being administered by volunteers that don't get a darn thing out of it other than the satisfaction of just "doing something good."

    We love criticism, good and bad, but some of this is way over the top. Not pointing fingers at anyone, bu maybe, just maybe, everyone could just chill, enjoy, shoot some pitchas and compete in the LPS.

    I'm beginning to wonder if there should be an LPS II :cry
  • pyroPrints.compyroPrints.com photohunter Registered Users Posts: 1,383 Major grins
    edited January 29, 2008
    Andy wrote:
    I'm beginning to wonder if there should be an LPS II :cry

    You mean we'll go directly to LPS III?

    I've particiaped in a few contests in my time, and invariable there are hurt feelings, and comments about fairness of the rules. I've yet to get through a single game of Cranium (tm) without someone challenging something. I think we gotta chillout a bit. Unless something is patently unfair (out right cheating, legit pictures getting DQed, Russian judges being paid off, etc, I think we're all OK.
    pyroPrints.com (my little t-shirt shop)
    pyroPrints.com/5819572 The Photo Section
  • NeilLNeilL B+R=M,B+G=C,R+G=Y Registered Users Posts: 4,201 Major grins
    edited January 29, 2008
    Andy wrote:
    Folks - you are participating in an opportunity to win $25K worth of prizes in photography. It's being administered by volunteers that don't get a darn thing out of it other than the satisfaction of just "doing something good."

    We love criticism, good and bad, but some of this is way over the top. Not pointing fingers at anyone, bu maybe, just maybe, everyone could just chill, enjoy, shoot some pitchas and compete in the LPS.

    I'm beginning to wonder if there should be an LPS II :cry

    Do you have a choice? I think WE want an LPS#

    You, Andy, are getting more than what you claim above out of DGrin, I'm sure. Isn't it good for SmugMug business? I'm not saying you are not also very generous...

    Your perception of what is over the top might not coincide with mine, and your fingers might point in other directions than mine. I have been frank and level. I am telling you a fact only, that I have been shocked more than once by the rudeness of one of the moderators. I know I am not alone in not being comfortable from time to time with some aspects of the ambiance at DGrin as it relates to moderators. I have been assiduous enough to compare my experience by familiarising myself with most forums and threads. The sentiments might not always be as undisguised as you find in me or Tentacion, but there is at least a smell of fire on occasion. Better you take note, I think, than dismiss what persons of good will are saying.

    We are adults here and do not welcome being chided to "behave yourselves". I do not come here to be parented.
    "Snow. Ice. Slow!" "Half-winter. Half-moon. Half-asleep!"

    http://www.behance.net/brosepix
  • urbanariesurbanaries hoosier grins Registered Users Posts: 2,690 Major grins
    edited January 29, 2008
    I remember the old challenges, and how I was looking forward to a more democratic contest in LPS. During the long and winding road, there were some issues I objected to and voiced my displeasure about. A few times I longed for the "old challenges." The grass is always greener folks! Early on, I got my ruffles feathered once or twice, and ruffled a few of my own (Sorry Charlie:cry). But after 20 rounds, I've come to the conclusion that no matter what model is implemented, there will ALWAYS be dissent, because art is subjective, no matter how much we want to quantify it.

    As for the moderators, they're people like us, with jobs, flaws, families and unique talents. I may not like or take kindly to their every word, but hey, I don't expect that every person on here will like everything I have to say, and the way I choose to say it, either.

    I would hope after the contest has run this far, folks should have some perspective. It's a voluntary contest, and after a year of playing you either dig the scene, or you don't. ne_nau.gif
    Canon 5D MkI
    50mm 1.4, 85mm 1.8, 24-70 2.8L, 35mm 1.4L, 135mm f2L
    ST-E2 Transmitter + (3) 580 EXII + radio poppers
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