It's been touched upon in passing on this thread, but I'd like to bring it into sharp focus: BUY USED, but only from a reputable dealer (B&H for example), NOT on e-bay. B&H, with whom I have experience buying used, will honestly rate the condition of the used gear that they are offering for resale, so you will know what you are getting, and if you aren't happy you can return it just like a retail purchase of new gear. This is the best possible way to stretch your $$$ IMO.
I'm not a shill for them (although I am so into them that sometimes I sound like one); I just don't think you can go wrong with this approach. You can also call them and ask questions, including specific questions about the used gear in question. I'm sure there are other retailers who would be (nearly) equally good for this, and if you can find them you should shop them all. But again, buy used from a reputable retailer -- that's the key.
Of course, don't forget the fine folks here on DGrin, who typically sell used equipement in great shape as well.
Fair enough, I haven't experienced it, but do sellers here take returns? That is huge IMO, since the OP is moving into (for him) unchartered DSLR territory.
Well if you can get a new 30D for $800 (or maybe less), used you can get nice ones for $600ish-
18-55 IS $175 (I read)
55-250IS (when it's available in the US for about $350)
430EX (or comprable Metz) for about $200
That puts you just over with a new 30D body and just under with a used one.
Gene
Gene,
Thanks for the information. I had just seen that Canon lens, the 55-250, today in a PC Photo magazine article on digital only lenses. I looked it up on Amazon and they're listing it for $299.99 due out in May. Sounds promising.
If the budget swings for it grab the D200 I'm sure you won't be disappointed, but at the same time the D80 is a great camera and seems to be getting cheaper and cheaper. The choice of course is yours.
Andrew,
Thank you very much for jumping in there with some info on the D80. I appreciate it and the photos on your web site are terrific.
It's been touched upon in passing on this thread, but I'd like to bring it into sharp focus: BUY USED, but only from a reputable dealer (B&H for example), NOT on e-bay.
Kent,
Thanks. I have bought from B&H before and trust them explicitly. Agree with your assessment about buying on eBay. Might get lucky but don't trust my luck. I can't even get high speed internet that's how 'lucky' I am.
Don't underestimate the power of PSP. And, don't underestimate the slippery slope of dslr ownership, especially if you enjoy sports photos. And, don't overlook buying used equipment. My very heavy bag is full of equipment bought from previous owners, and it is all great!
Bud1880,
I know where you are coming from. I was there. I knew a few things when I bought my first real gear a couple years ago.
I needed a flash. (you will too)
I needed a bag. (you will too)
I wanted something I would grow into.
I wanted to shoot family events, sports, friends, company events. (some of this is on your list.
When I bought I got the 20d on ebay from an individual (as opposed to a business.) It took me about a month of searching watching etc. The purchase ended up being around $1250 including shipping. It had a 550ex flash 18-55, 70-300 and memory card. I bought a bag right away for it. then started shooting.
With that gear some forums and the luck of having access to some popular cycling photographers I learned a ton, sold some stuff, and been published (even with the kit lenses.) As more people bought stuff I've upgraded all my gear. I'm pleased and confident it was better learning on the cheaper stuff.
Yep. I use it but not quite as much as Elements only because with some Photoshop tutorials you can follow along well in Elements. Both,PSP and Elements, pretty powerful programs.
And, don't underestimate the slippery slope of dslr ownership, especially if you enjoy sports photos. And, don't overlook buying used equipment. My very heavy bag is full of equipment bought from previous owners, and it is all great!
I haven't even bought one yet and already I can't stand on the slope.
Thanks Ann. The 'used equipment' point again well taken.
Appreciate the perspective. I dunno, eBay still scares me and I've bought plenty of stuff there but not for that kind of money. You and a lot of others are trying to make a 'bargain hunter' out of me yet. Might work.
I've sure gotten a lot more opinions than I expected tonight. I do appreciate everyone's input. Pretty cool.
I felt the need to chime in and defend the Canon XT. I bought one that was new off of FM for $360 with the kit 18-55 lens. I then got the wife to buy me a Canon 70-300 IS USM for $550 from B&H. I have also purchased a battery grip for the XT for $100 (the grip compensates for the camera feeling small in my hand. Bought used off of here), a Canon 50mm 1.4 (used off of here) for $220 and a Canon 580EX flash (used off of Craigslist) for $250. 4 GB card from Costco for $30 on sale. That comes out to a total of $1510. Granted, I still need to spend a couple bucks ($30 or so) on a bag, but my equipment is done.
Instead of spending the extra money on a body, I have a great consumer zoom lens with the IS that will help you with sports photography, an AWESOME portrait lens in the 50mm 1.4 (the 50mm 1.8 sells for $75 new and is a good lens for images, it's just all plastic and lets in less light), and a top of the line flash that has more features than I can ever imagine using. As for picture quality in the XT, it is a very solid camera. Sure the MarkIII are going to have better contract and saturation, but once you have that shot that you love of your grandchild, an entry level software package from Adobe can help you do whatever you want to that picture. To date, I have taken about 600 shots, couple hundred at a New York Rangers game and the rest of my son, and I have been blown away by the quality of the images. Now that I have the flash, the pictures are just amazing me. Since you're new to the dSLR realm, just like me, the XT will give you everything you need for now, and then once you find that ultra special need, then you will look at wanting to "trade up" a body or a piece of glass. But for my beginner's set, I LOVE what I have.
My Kit
Canon 5DII, Canon 7D
Canon Canon 24-70 f/2.8L, Canon 35 f/1.4L, Canon 70-200 f/2.8L IS II, Canon 85 f/1.2L II, Canon 500mm f/4 IS, Zeiss 21mm ZE
Speedlite 580ex II, Canon 430ex
Allow me to once again beat the horse: used gear. That will help stretch the budget.
One question: are you shooting those dirt track events during the day or at night? I assume the karts are daytime & the kids are whenever. Night/low light shooting is more demanding of gear & your skill.
For a body, I'd be looking for good 20D's or 30D's; they are very capable in the areas you mention and being 1-2 generations "obsolete" the buy-in price has plummeted, leaving more space for lenses & sundry items.
For lenses, there's a ton of choices. You will need reach for the racing & birds, so at least a 70-200 of some flavor (Canon has 4, Sigma has one, and Tamron just added one), perhaps even something longer, but that gets pricey fast. For kids, something like a 50/1.8 would be a nice budget choice (at $70 it leaves yet more room for the longer lens).
Also remember, you will be wanting a bag, a spare battery (Sterlingtek is your best bet), and some memory cards at minimum.
At the stated budget & subjects it's really, really tough to put together a kit to handle it all.
Appreciate the perspective. I dunno, eBay still scares me and I've bought plenty of stuff there but not for that kind of money. You and a lot of others are trying to make a 'bargain hunter' out of me yet. Might work.
I've sure gotten a lot more opinions than I expected tonight. I do appreciate everyone's input. Pretty cool.
Bud
Ebay is not the only place to buy used gear. I've gotten used gear from DGrinners, FM'ers, just placed my first order from B&H (used, arriving Monday), and other places. I bought my SB-400 flash, Nikon N50 and D50 new, along with the lenses that came with them, everything else including the D1h in my profile is used.
I don't know what experience you have in taking photos, but seeing as you know about Elements, I'm guessing you've used a point and shoot for a while.
My suggestion will be a little different from the others that you've read.
As you're an older guy, eye sight kind of heading south, I think you'll want a large screen to look at the shots/menus/info with. So at this point, rule out the 20D and XT. Those little screens are a pain to see for older eyes.
So we move up to a 30D or an XTi.
Both good cameras. The 30D will give slightly better results in my opinion than the XTi. But for an older guy starting out, I think the XTi will be an easier way to go.
With the XTi, the back 2 1/2 inch screen gives you all of your shooting info.
The 30D puts it on a tiny screen on top of the camera. I'm always taking my reading glasses on and off trying to read the darn thing.
A new XTi without a kit lens can be had at B&H for $519. I paid $800 for mine a little over a year ago.
I think a good starter lens would be a Tamron 18-250.
I have the Tamron 18-200 (older model) and for the most part, in good light, it's a good lens. I went to Zion and Bryce with the good people of dgrin 2 years ago, and I used this setup 90% of the time.
This past Oct. on another trip with the folks here, my wife used only this lens on an XT and got very good results.
The Tamron lens can be had at B&H for $479. Tamron
Along with these two items, I would buy the Canon 50mm f1.8 ($75) lens.
That way you do have a fast lens for the indoor birthday shots.
I have now used up about $1120 of your budget. Lots of cash left over for memory cards, camera bags, tripods, Flashes, whatever.
Canon 70- 200 f4: pretty good for the birds given enough light, perfect for the stockcars during the day.
Canon 50 f 1.8 - great all around for about $80
Canon lower end flash 440ex or 480ex
Canon camera bag:
This ones pretty darn good and only $40 at Amazon
PS Elements: Look for free versions when buying other things. My Wacom tablet had a free version, my Dell computer had free Elements 6.
Decent tripod, with ball head and legs.
Smugmug account
I think if you shopped around, you could do this for under $2000, getting down to $1500 might be tough.
Good luck, its an exciting time.
The only other advice I have given is to buy the camera and a single lens first, then shoot for six months. You'll go through a lot of dreams and wants, but need to see which ones are actual versus of the moment. Read everything here, especially the tutorials sections. I go back and reread them about monthly and still get something out of them.
Z
It is the purpose of life that each of us strives to become actually what he is potentially. We should be obsessed with stretching towards that goal through the world we inhabit.
It is the purpose of life that each of us strives to become actually what he is potentially. We should be obsessed with stretching towards that goal through the world we inhabit.
Thanks for all the advice. Good stuff and probably too much for this 'old' head to take in at one time. (Your reference Dave to "older guy, and eyesight heading south" duly noted. ).
"Z" I was aware of the other thread where there also was a lot of good advice/information.
I can't believe it's been almost a year since I posted this hypothetical.
Just to let everyone know that I took the plunge and only because B&H had an outstanding deal. I bought my first dSLR, a Canon XSi with the 18-55mm IS kit lens plus a 55-250mm IS lens. The camera w/kit lens is still going for around $800 in a lot of places and I got that plus the tele lens for $789. I couldn't let that one go.
Thanks to everyone who replied to this thread it was a great help and kind of you all to take time to offer opinions. Really appreciated.
Now, off to learn what the heck I'm doing with this thing. That may never happen but rest assured I'll have fun trying.
If it hasn't been said already, what's wrong with buying used? Great deals to be had on the forums here and elsewhere, just do your homework and use your noggin when making final decisions, and if you don't like doing that start another thread so thousands can second guess your decisions for you.
I can't believe it's been almost a year since I posted this hypothetical.
Just to let everyone know that I took the plunge and only because B&H had an outstanding deal. I bought my first dSLR, a Canon XSi with the 18-55mm IS kit lens plus a 55-250mm IS lens. The camera w/kit lens is still going for around $800 in a lot of places and I got that plus the tele lens for $789. I couldn't let that one go.
Thanks to everyone who replied to this thread it was a great help and kind of you all to take time to offer opinions. Really appreciated.
Now, off to learn what the heck I'm doing with this thing. That may never happen but rest assured I'll have fun trying.
Bud
You don't mention a bag so I thought I would tell you about my budget method. For a larger one I am still using a no name one that I got at Wal-Mart in the late 1980's. When I wanted something smaller back in 2003 I got a 12 can cooler bag at the grocery store for under $10! It is a long time since I posted a photo so hope I figure out how to do it again now. I figured that if it kept the moisture in from the drink cans it would keep it out as well if I got caught in rain. I have been happy with it for a Canon D60 (yes the old model from around 2002), grip, and Tamron 17-50 atttached. It will also hold my old 200mm Vivitar M42 lens & 2x tel-converter which is used with a M42 to Canon adapter. The front pocket is good for "stuff".
Hope this helps
Jane B.
PS The jpg attached is a scan of the ad from the newspaper. I have never used it for drink cans.
Comments
Here's the link: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/
I'm not a shill for them (although I am so into them that sometimes I sound like one); I just don't think you can go wrong with this approach. You can also call them and ask questions, including specific questions about the used gear in question. I'm sure there are other retailers who would be (nearly) equally good for this, and if you can find them you should shop them all. But again, buy used from a reputable retailer -- that's the key.
__________________
www.browngreensports.com
http://browngreensports.smugmug.com
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
__________________
www.browngreensports.com
http://browngreensports.smugmug.com
Thanks for the information. I had just seen that Canon lens, the 55-250, today in a PC Photo magazine article on digital only lenses. I looked it up on Amazon and they're listing it for $299.99 due out in May. Sounds promising.
Bud
Thank you very much for jumping in there with some info on the D80. I appreciate it and the photos on your web site are terrific.
Bud
Thanks. I have bought from B&H before and trust them explicitly. Agree with your assessment about buying on eBay. Might get lucky but don't trust my luck. I can't even get high speed internet that's how 'lucky' I am.
Bud
Icebear,
Agreed. If Elements can't do it then I've got no business trying whatever it is.
Bud
Enjoy
ann
My Galleries My Photography BLOG
Ramblings About Me
I know where you are coming from. I was there. I knew a few things when I bought my first real gear a couple years ago.
I needed a flash. (you will too)
I needed a bag. (you will too)
I wanted something I would grow into.
I wanted to shoot family events, sports, friends, company events. (some of this is on your list.
When I bought I got the 20d on ebay from an individual (as opposed to a business.) It took me about a month of searching watching etc. The purchase ended up being around $1250 including shipping. It had a 550ex flash 18-55, 70-300 and memory card. I bought a bag right away for it. then started shooting.
With that gear some forums and the luck of having access to some popular cycling photographers I learned a ton, sold some stuff, and been published (even with the kit lenses.) As more people bought stuff I've upgraded all my gear. I'm pleased and confident it was better learning on the cheaper stuff.
I haven't even bought one yet and already I can't stand on the slope.
Thanks Ann. The 'used equipment' point again well taken.
Bud
Appreciate the perspective. I dunno, eBay still scares me and I've bought plenty of stuff there but not for that kind of money. You and a lot of others are trying to make a 'bargain hunter' out of me yet. Might work.
I've sure gotten a lot more opinions than I expected tonight. I do appreciate everyone's input. Pretty cool.
Bud
I felt the need to chime in and defend the Canon XT. I bought one that was new off of FM for $360 with the kit 18-55 lens. I then got the wife to buy me a Canon 70-300 IS USM for $550 from B&H. I have also purchased a battery grip for the XT for $100 (the grip compensates for the camera feeling small in my hand. Bought used off of here), a Canon 50mm 1.4 (used off of here) for $220 and a Canon 580EX flash (used off of Craigslist) for $250. 4 GB card from Costco for $30 on sale. That comes out to a total of $1510. Granted, I still need to spend a couple bucks ($30 or so) on a bag, but my equipment is done.
Instead of spending the extra money on a body, I have a great consumer zoom lens with the IS that will help you with sports photography, an AWESOME portrait lens in the 50mm 1.4 (the 50mm 1.8 sells for $75 new and is a good lens for images, it's just all plastic and lets in less light), and a top of the line flash that has more features than I can ever imagine using. As for picture quality in the XT, it is a very solid camera. Sure the MarkIII are going to have better contract and saturation, but once you have that shot that you love of your grandchild, an entry level software package from Adobe can help you do whatever you want to that picture. To date, I have taken about 600 shots, couple hundred at a New York Rangers game and the rest of my son, and I have been blown away by the quality of the images. Now that I have the flash, the pictures are just amazing me. Since you're new to the dSLR realm, just like me, the XT will give you everything you need for now, and then once you find that ultra special need, then you will look at wanting to "trade up" a body or a piece of glass. But for my beginner's set, I LOVE what I have.
Canon 5DII, Canon 7D
Canon Canon 24-70 f/2.8L, Canon 35 f/1.4L, Canon 70-200 f/2.8L IS II, Canon 85 f/1.2L II, Canon 500mm f/4 IS, Zeiss 21mm ZE
Speedlite 580ex II, Canon 430ex
Allow me to once again beat the horse: used gear. That will help stretch the budget.
One question: are you shooting those dirt track events during the day or at night? I assume the karts are daytime & the kids are whenever. Night/low light shooting is more demanding of gear & your skill.
For a body, I'd be looking for good 20D's or 30D's; they are very capable in the areas you mention and being 1-2 generations "obsolete" the buy-in price has plummeted, leaving more space for lenses & sundry items.
For lenses, there's a ton of choices. You will need reach for the racing & birds, so at least a 70-200 of some flavor (Canon has 4, Sigma has one, and Tamron just added one), perhaps even something longer, but that gets pricey fast. For kids, something like a 50/1.8 would be a nice budget choice (at $70 it leaves yet more room for the longer lens).
Also remember, you will be wanting a bag, a spare battery (Sterlingtek is your best bet), and some memory cards at minimum.
At the stated budget & subjects it's really, really tough to put together a kit to handle it all.
http://www.chrislaudermilkphoto.com/
Appreciate the comments on the unique way you set up your initial dSLR system. Thank you.
Chris,
I'm getting the message.
The stock car racing shots will be daylight. Summer and daylight savings time gives me several hours to shoot.
Bud
Ebay is not the only place to buy used gear. I've gotten used gear from DGrinners, FM'ers, just placed my first order from B&H (used, arriving Monday), and other places. I bought my SB-400 flash, Nikon N50 and D50 new, along with the lenses that came with them, everything else including the D1h in my profile is used.
I don't know what experience you have in taking photos, but seeing as you know about Elements, I'm guessing you've used a point and shoot for a while.
My suggestion will be a little different from the others that you've read.
As you're an older guy, eye sight kind of heading south, I think you'll want a large screen to look at the shots/menus/info with. So at this point, rule out the 20D and XT. Those little screens are a pain to see for older eyes.
So we move up to a 30D or an XTi.
Both good cameras. The 30D will give slightly better results in my opinion than the XTi. But for an older guy starting out, I think the XTi will be an easier way to go.
With the XTi, the back 2 1/2 inch screen gives you all of your shooting info.
The 30D puts it on a tiny screen on top of the camera. I'm always taking my reading glasses on and off trying to read the darn thing.
A new XTi without a kit lens can be had at B&H for $519. I paid $800 for mine a little over a year ago.
A link to B&H. XTI
I think a good starter lens would be a Tamron 18-250.
I have the Tamron 18-200 (older model) and for the most part, in good light, it's a good lens. I went to Zion and Bryce with the good people of dgrin 2 years ago, and I used this setup 90% of the time.
This past Oct. on another trip with the folks here, my wife used only this lens on an XT and got very good results.
The Tamron lens can be had at B&H for $479. Tamron
Along with these two items, I would buy the Canon 50mm f1.8 ($75) lens.
That way you do have a fast lens for the indoor birthday shots.
I have now used up about $1120 of your budget. Lots of cash left over for memory cards, camera bags, tripods, Flashes, whatever.
Have fun deciding.
Basking in the shadows of yesterday's triumphs'.
Gently used 30D from either here or FM.
Canon 70- 200 f4: pretty good for the birds given enough light, perfect for the stockcars during the day.
Canon 50 f 1.8 - great all around for about $80
Canon lower end flash 440ex or 480ex
Canon camera bag:
This ones pretty darn good and only $40 at Amazon
PS Elements: Look for free versions when buying other things. My Wacom tablet had a free version, my Dell computer had free Elements 6.
Decent tripod, with ball head and legs.
Smugmug account
I think if you shopped around, you could do this for under $2000, getting down to $1500 might be tough.
Good luck, its an exciting time.
The only other advice I have given is to buy the camera and a single lens first, then shoot for six months. You'll go through a lot of dreams and wants, but need to see which ones are actual versus of the moment. Read everything here, especially the tutorials sections. I go back and reread them about monthly and still get something out of them.
Z
http://digitalgrin.com/showthread.php?t=83361
Kind of the same thinking.....
Z
Thanks for all the advice. Good stuff and probably too much for this 'old' head to take in at one time. (Your reference Dave to "older guy, and eyesight heading south" duly noted.
"Z" I was aware of the other thread where there also was a lot of good advice/information.
Really, really do appreciate it folks.
Bud
Just to let everyone know that I took the plunge and only because B&H had an outstanding deal. I bought my first dSLR, a Canon XSi with the 18-55mm IS kit lens plus a 55-250mm IS lens. The camera w/kit lens is still going for around $800 in a lot of places and I got that plus the tele lens for $789. I couldn't let that one go.
Thanks to everyone who replied to this thread it was a great help and kind of you all to take time to offer opinions. Really appreciated.
Now, off to learn what the heck I'm doing with this thing. That may never happen but rest assured I'll have fun trying.
Bud
Nikon D80 $520
Nikon SB600 flash $200
Nikkor 18-200mm VR $750
That's it. The 18-200mm is jack of all trades master of none type deal and is well regarded in that respect. It cover a wide range of zooms.
I think the flash is essential.
14-24 24-70 70-200mm (vr2)
85 and 50 1.4
45 PC and sb910 x2
http://www.danielkimphotography.com
Enjoy.
Hope this helps
Jane B.
PS The jpg attached is a scan of the ad from the newspaper. I have never used it for drink cans.
Wwallace, welcome to the Digital Grin.
Thanks for your comments.
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums