... Why you need it? How many images do you have now? How easy is it to find one specific one? Or a small group of them? That is what a DAM is for...
...keywording... categories to generate your keywords & automate the generation & saving of the data through a great script written to aid with that...
For what the different metadata is, there has been extensive discussion at the support forum there & IIRC a wiki page has been written to help.
Great help. I'll be sure to recheck the keywording resources.
I don't have many thousands of digital shots yet, but I'm sure that will change, so I'm trying to be proactive and set up a system. I shoot several levels of pro assignment work (commercial, government, industrial, consumer and spec.), I'm slowly investigating stock and, of course, also have the personal/family pix to content with, so the categories features will be very useful. But I'd like to handle everything but image manipulation through one workflow without the need for several management applications.
And that's where iMatch lost me. Right off the bat I find I have to use another package to download and name? I like the keywording features, but at first blush they seem somewhat over complex.
I may take another look. If anything, the price is certainly right. But I'm also interested in IDimage. The marketing promise is sound. Seems to address all the points you've raised for iMatch while remaining (in theory) completely non-proprietary. I like that. The keywording features seem quite impressive too.
Thing is, it seems I can't check out the pro version without shelling out for a license and the free version is completely stripped of the high-value features I'd like to check out! Weird way to do business, me thinks? (Oops, just discovered the trial version. 30 days! Too cool!)
I have only one workflow, it just happens to use several "best of breed" apps. Yes, Downloader Pro is a separate app, but once set up is nearly transparent. All I do is plug in the card, wait for DL Pro to load up (automatically, triggered by card insertion), enter a job code & click go. Then I wait for IMatch to load up automatically after that. The files are placed where they belong with the proper naming without any intervention by me now.
By keywording are you referring to the categories? That is the core of the apps strength & is quite simple once you get how it works. You can make it as complex as you like, or keep it nice & simple.
For my database, I have the basic journalistic points as the foundation: Who, What, Where, When, Why, and How. Once all those sections are filled in, you have a fully-categorized image. For When, I have IMatch auto-generate the categories from the EXIF timestamp. For keywords, I have a script (APIW) pull from What and Why, pick the hierarchy apart & stuff the IPTC Keyword field. It sounds much more complex than it is in practice, all I'm doing on a day-to-day basis is some button-pushing.
As I've mentioned before, IMatch does have a slightly daunting learning curve up front, but there's lots of help available (look on the forum there--one user, mtpaper, was a complete noob about two months ago & is now giving advice to new users & is probably one of the more knowledgeable users regarding dates now). But, remember that another very powerful app most of us use has an equally tough--if not steeper, taller--learning curve: PS. It just comes with having so many powerful features.
Great info! I see what you're doing. Perhaps I'll take another look. If I decide I need a standardized keyword vocabulary, I'll likely go with IDimage because plug-ins are available. If not, I may go with iMatch because it's cheaper. I do like the IDimage manual, though. Very thorough and well done.
Ahhh, my favorite subject. I have been in search for a DAM software for over 2 years now!!!! Well, on and off...off cause the complexity just drives me away.
I have tried almost all of the softwares that are available. Here is a list
LightRoom (very good and simple...but slower than a turtoise!) Oh, no network and archival features. Is it even considered a DAM software??? hmmm...food for though.
IDimager Lite (Seems good, but it is not as easy as LR...this maybe the software for me actually. Well the Pro version due to networking features. But it is a steep learning curve and I do not have that time.)
IMatch (Once again, same problems as IDimager and is complicated)
Bridge (Nuff said on this one)
Picajet (Really Good one, but when I tried it, it couldn't handle RAW files. It seems it can now and can do everything I want. I will have a go at this again. Really cool interface too.)
Fotostation: (Here is a powerful software, but totally not user friendly.
IviewMedia Pro (I really like this one. This was the one that I had my heart set on. But, alas, files on the network sloooowed this software way down).
BreezeBrowser (Not really a DAM software and I hope people would stop recommending this one as that. It isn't. )
ACDSee Pro - Yes, very nice program, but why does it have to handle IPTC keywords differently???? Why??? Why???? This is a major problem for me...apparently this program has its own way of doing things via labels...or was it categories. Anyways, not very good if you were to change softwares since your data wouldn't transfer easily.
Couple more that I forget the names of right now. Oh, Picasa...but not really for an advanced amateur.
There are few things I am looking for in the software and I have not found one that incorporated all of them. Here is what a dream DAM software would have to have for me:
Ease of Use. It has to be so easy, that my computer fearing wife can find, sort, re-size, upload pictures without hours of training. Especially keywording and ranking.
Speed. Light Speed preferable even over Network.
Full Network support with multiple PCs having full access to all the pictures and no degradation of speed.
Full support for my RAW files + Jpegs.
All IPTC data and XMP data should be written to the actual file and not as a sidecar. I hate the concept of sidecars. I realize that there is DNG, but that is ONE more process I have to do. I realize that RAW files can't be changed and so on and so forth. However, one of the above programs did allow me to write directly to the NEF file with no sidecar. I had tested this out.
Also, my star rankings and color label system shoud be transferable easily to other programs. Including Vista's search features.
No proprietory standards. I want open standards so that when I want to switch DAM softwares, it is a piece of cake and not a nightmare. Very important to me.
Easily, very easily upload pictures to smugmug or email but auto resizing and stuff like that.
Duplicate picture finding across all network drives and folders.
Finally, some sort of archival system where it keeps track of what I have backed up and what I haven't. Obviously network backing up process is the best.
Now, it maybe me, but I thought this would be pretty easy to find a good DAM software. Not even close. 2 years of search should tell you something. I wish someone would have this wish list in their software.
My search continues. Mind you, some of the softwares have newer versions now and I haven't tested these recently. I will go back to Picajet and also try out Expressions Media.
Hope this helps someone.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
WildViper
From Nikon D70s > Nikon D300s & D700
Nikon 50/1.8, Tamron 28-75/2.8 1st gen, Nikkor 12-24/4, Nikkor 70-200/2.8 ED VR, SB600, SB900, SB-26 and Gitzo 2 Series Carbon Fiber with Kirk Ballhead
Ahhh, my favorite subject. I have been in search for a DAM software for over 2 years now!!!! Well, on and off...off cause the complexity just drives me away.
ACDSee Pro - Yes, very nice program, but why does it have to handle IPTC keywords differently???? Why??? Why???? This is a major problem for me...apparently this program has its own way of doing things via labels...or was it categories. Anyways, not very good if you were to change softwares since your data wouldn't transfer easily.
I use ACDSee Pro 2 and find it just right for my needs (I also have a version of LR complementary of Adobe since I owned RSP a RAW converter which they bought).
What I like about it is the speed and the simplicity. I've looked at IDImager which is very feature rich.
But I just don't understand the point made in your post about the IPTC keywords differently. Many many ACDSee Pro 2 users have switched to using IPTC without any problem whatsoever. Pro 2 does have its own database, but one can copy its content to and from IPTC in a breeze. The DB does provide for fast searches etc., but one can totally rely on IPTC to store meta data in a open way.
Most people on the net make comments about ACDSee based on older versions and ACDSee did have some shaky ones, but if one judges on current value for money I think it is a valid alternative. For me the fact that it's easy and has a nice UI is essential because my wife does take photos and we share the PC so she needs to use the same software (for browsing and simple edits) from time to time and there is no way she would even consider touching any of the other DAM software I tried (LR - twice tthe price of IDImager and ACDSee Pro 2, IDImager, Iview).
There is a 30 trial period on most of those so give it a try but don't forget ACDSee Pro 2 and do take some of the comments on the net with a bit of caution (including mine )
PS: ACDSee Pro 2 has an uploader to Smugmug (which could be improved; but it does work)
Note that Expressions Media IS iView, just MS' new version of it. I've read from many users that the pre-MS version is the best.
IMatch also has a nice SM uploader. Along with that, it has a synchronizer that builds a category tree so you can see what your website's image structure is from withing IMatch. Very handy. It's got import/export ability to about everything I've seen thrown at it. It is complex at first--the price you pay for all the capability. OK, enough for now.
I'll leave my LR thoughts at this: it just got recalled for trashing your files & the answer to your question is IMHO, no.
But I just don't understand the point made in your post about the IPTC keywords differently. Many many ACDSee Pro 2 users have switched to using IPTC without any problem whatsoever. Pro 2 does have its own database, but one can copy its content to and from IPTC in a breeze. The DB does provide for fast searches etc., but one can totally rely on IPTC to store meta data in a open way.
Most people on the net make comments about ACDSee based on older versionsquote]
I understand this and this was explained to me when i had the trial Version 2. What I didn't like is that the keywords(IPTC) are burried deep. You have to click on a panel and then scroll down to get to it. Why couldn't it just be on the main screen where I can just click on the keyword...like they have the categories or labels(whatever ACDSee calls it).
Is there a way for me to transfer those categories into IPTC keywords automatically? Also, ACDsee doesn't handle network very well....it comes to a crawl.
I have over 30K images of NEF and JPEgs. But I have very fast computers and my wifi is optimized for speed as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
WildViper
From Nikon D70s > Nikon D300s & D700
Nikon 50/1.8, Tamron 28-75/2.8 1st gen, Nikkor 12-24/4, Nikkor 70-200/2.8 ED VR, SB600, SB900, SB-26 and Gitzo 2 Series Carbon Fiber with Kirk Ballhead
Is there a way for me to transfer those categories into IPTC keywords automatically? Also, ACDsee doesn't handle network very well....it comes to a crawl.
I have over 30K images of NEF and JPEgs. But I have very fast computers and my wifi is optimized for speed as well.
1) true, Pro 2 is not good if you want a network system (its Db is single user). In such case IDImager is better.
2) The easiest way to work with categories and keywords is to use the tools supplied in ACDSee (with the nice GUI and metadata stored in own DB) and then do a batch set information which will bulk copy everything to IPTC. One can even create a keyboard shortcut to do it more easily.
It works just fine for me but I guess if you want to bulk enter IPTC keywords directly (without using the bacth set window) then Pro 2 might not be the best choice. I use personally the Microsoft tool (Photo Info) when I want to do that, since Ctrl+Right click in ACDSee gives you the windows pop-up menu and there you can access photo info.
Great thread! Some really good insight happening here!
Do tell! Sounds interesting! Is this also true of an SM-based Web site! Will iMatch map my galleries some how and simplify synchronization?
Yes, it's actually specifically for an SM site using the SmugMug API to read your site category/sub-cat/gallery structure. The script can then search your database & build a category tree with all the uploaded files linked in, so you can see what is loaded where. I've found it very useful. It can be found here: http://wiki.photoolsweb.com/index.php?title=IMSmugTools_-_scripts_to_integrate_IMatch_and_Smugmug
Yes, it's actually specifically for an SM site using the SmugMug API to read your site category/sub-cat/gallery structure. The script can then search your database & build a category tree with all the uploaded files linked in, so you can see what is loaded where. I've found it very useful. It can be found here: http://wiki.photoolsweb.com/index.php?title=IMSmugTools_-_scripts_to_integrate_IMatch_and_Smugmug
Thanks for the heads-up! Sounds like a truly useful tool.
Great thread! Some really good insight happening here!
Does anyone use Photoshop elements for photo management? I have used it for years and really like it. It doesn't seem to get too much respect--I don't know that I have heard anyone mention it on this forum, but it seems to work pretty well for me.
Does anyone use Photoshop elements for photo management? I have used it for years and really like it. It doesn't seem to get too much respect--I don't know that I have heard anyone mention it on this forum, but it seems to work pretty well for me.
Josh,
Elements is what my wife uses for our family images and I can actually give here tech support
However, at my studio we have been using a program called Canto Cumulus. Cumulus is quite involving, however offers the most comprehensive list of all the features listed in this thread so far. Having used it for about ten years now I can say that the drag and drop catalog feature is very handy. There are many handy scripts such as the one to create jpegs from any collection of images. Cumulus stores images searches in what are called collections which can be very handy. Cumulus also stores groups of images in categories. Having said all this Cumulus is expensive and must be updated about every two years. In addition, there are week long workshops on customizing cumulus, I would rather be shooting thank you:ivar so we run Cumulus as simply as possible.
I do believe image editing and archiving are two separate issues and require separate programs to optimise. It is very easy to open images in CS3 or LR with the click of a button from within Cumulus so I really dont need to use either of these programs for image management. I do write my metadata while in Bridge which is imported during the cataloging process. I am still waiting for that one program myself
The site does not have a lot of content yet but he has a very good review of ACDSee Pro and IDimager which can also serve as a tutorial of basic features.
For meta data there are several standards
EXIF around forever mainly deals with technical data
IPTC IIM The original IPTC
IPTC Core Schema for XMP (IPTC4XMP)
Idealy you would want your application to be compatible with all of the above. Loose one and you will either not be able read old files or not be fully compatible with Vista, and software from Adobe and other major vendors.
Most applications are somewhat IPTC IIM compatiible. Suprisingly a lot are still not fully IPTC4XMP compliant (the standard has been out for 3 years and ACDSee still has not caught up with it as it does not implement the standard defined rating field used by lightroom and vista)
Picasa is an odd bird because it butchers the IPTC IIM specification and is incompatible with IPTC4XMP. Some picasa meta data is not written to the file (for exampe the picasa star rating system) and the picasa keywords/tags use the IPTC IIM fields, so they are readable by other applications, but they add the curious restriction that keywords/tags can only be one world log. For example if you enter Forth of July as a picasa keyword it will fill out 3 tags. Fourth, of, and July. It is because of picasa's lack of support for IPTC4XMP and the poor support for IPTC IIM that I am dumping picasa and moving on.
For myself I'd add two additional requirements:
The software must be actively developed and the developers responsive to problembs/bug fixes.
The software must manage (not necessarily edit) movie files and maybe audio files.
Like wildviper I am completely unable to find something that does everything and that I actually like (maybe IDimager will grow on me, for some reason it rubbed me wrong).
For now I've given up the all in one approach and looking for software for each phase of my workflow that is ITPC/IPTC4XMP compatible.
I read a thread on Arstechnica and have used some of the suggestions:
Browsing/Deleting duds/IMPT4XMP compliant ratings/color labels/
Fast Picture viewer (cost $$$$ for raw, free for my jpeg) http://www.fastpictureviewer.com/
IPTC4XMP compliant tags:
Windows Live Photo Gallery 2008
The latter surpised me. It's uses IPTC4XMP ratings and tags, so anything done in WLPG will import nicely into any of the Adobe suite (I'm looking at lightroom in the future). WLPG is fairly fast, and has an OK system for tagging photos.
TODO:
- I need something like fastpicture viewer for browsing videos
- I need a standard way to tag and rate videos. IDimager solves this conundromp with an xmp sidecar file, but I'm not sure what can read that sidecar file. PSE 5 can't read the file, maybe 6 can.
- I need a processing solution
- I need a smugmug upload solution.
Thanks everyone for the great discussion thus far!
One of the many things I love about elements is its smugmug integration. You can upload any kind of file --photoshop, raw, jpg, tiff, etc directly into smugmug. Whatever kind of conversion is necessary it takes care of. Way cool.
One of the many things I love about elements is its smugmug integration. You can upload any kind of file --photoshop, raw, jpg, tiff, etc directly into smugmug. Whatever kind of conversion is necessary it takes care of. Way cool.
Josh. Can it upload video? Also does it recognize keywords/labels tagged on to your video?
I have elements 5 but rarely use it. I was first turned off by it when it tried to apply a red eye fix to all of my files on upload. "Don't touch my files unless I tell you to touch my files" should be the equivalent of "do no harm" for doctors. Also I felt I was loosing touch with my actual files on the hard drive. It seems elements wants to import everything into a mega database and actually browsing to a folder seemed nearly impossble. Finally elements will let you rate and tag your videos but there is no way to export that information. For pictures you can force it to write the metadata to the IPTC4XMP fields of the file, making your Elements meta data compatible with a zillion other apps. That option is not avialable for video. IDimager writes video metadata information to a sidecare .xmp file, in theory allowing portability. Finally, like literoom elements performs like a dog compared to picasa, fastpicture viewer etc. All of these issues are from my experience with elements 5, maybe elements 6 fixes everything?
Josh. Can it upload video? Also does it recognize keywords/labels tagged on to your video?
I have elements 5 but rarely use it. I was first turned off by it when it tried to apply a red eye fix to all of my files on upload. "Don't touch my files unless I tell you to touch my files" should be the equivalent of "do no harm" for doctors. Also I felt I was loosing touch with my actual files on the hard drive. It seems elements wants to import everything into a mega database and actually browsing to a folder seemed nearly impossble. Finally elements will let you rate and tag your videos but there is no way to export that information. For pictures you can force it to write the metadata to the IPTC4XMP fields of the file, making your Elements meta data compatible with a zillion other apps. That option is not avialable for video. IDimager writes video metadata information to a sidecare .xmp file, in theory allowing portability. Finally, like literoom elements performs like a dog compared to picasa, fastpicture viewer etc. All of these issues are from my experience with elements 5, maybe elements 6 fixes everything?
Thanks for the great discussion!
I can't answer all these questions, but I do know the answer to a few
Red eye--you can turn that feature off. I never have it touch red eye. for one thing, if you shoot with an external flash, it is not a porblem anyway. Only time I have pics with red eye is when I import from my wife' p/s, then I fix manually.
It does try to make tasks easier by automating, but again, you can turn that off. you can tell it what folders to watch for new files or not, and whether or not to search your whole hd upon start up.
You can write information about the pic to the file. This includes keywords and (I think) other rating--star rating. You do have to tell it to do this; it doesn't do it automatically. the default is to write it to its own database. Another thing I am not sure about is if it can undo/change this information.
I don't know about writing files to video. I don't use if for video
A lot of adobe programs have a 30 day trial. you could try it out for yourself.
Does anyone use Photoshop elements for photo management? I have used it for years and really like it. It doesn't seem to get too much respect--I don't know that I have heard anyone mention it on this forum, but it seems to work pretty well for me.
I used to use Elements before I switched over to IDImager. One of the main thigns I liked about it (and the reason I switched to IDI) is because it actually had versions implemented. THe problem with it, from what I have heard, is that if you are a professional you may run up against the max number of files the program can handle. I'm not sure what that size is though.
Looking at the IDI site, it's a file size limit. Looks like three flavors (2GB for Personal on SQLite, 4GB on SQLExpress on SQL Server Edition, or 2TB for Desktop Edition).
That's what I like about my DAM app (IMatch)--the size is limited only by the drive space available.
Looking at the IDI site, it's a file size limit. Looks like three flavors (2GB for Personal on SQLite, 4GB on SQLExpress on SQL Server Edition, or 2TB for Desktop Edition).
That's what I like about my DAM app (IMatch)--the size is limited only by the drive space available.
LoL, actually when I said the problem with IT, I mean the problem with Elements! LoL...
I know there is the 2TB file size limit in IDI, but seriously, I think you would run up against just a few other problems before you hit that limit! LoL... I would have to imagine that if your database file actually got up to 2TB then you are probably looking at hundreds of TB od actual photos. If it were me and I was getting a database of that size I think I would looking at splitting it into a couple of smaller databases so I wasn't trying to load so much into RAM at once!
Josh. Can it upload video? Also does it recognize keywords/labels tagged on to your video?
I have elements 5 but rarely use it. I was first turned off by it when it tried to apply a red eye fix to all of my files on upload. "Don't touch my files unless I tell you to touch my files" should be the equivalent of "do no harm" for doctors. Also I felt I was loosing touch with my actual files on the hard drive. It seems elements wants to import everything into a mega database and actually browsing to a folder seemed nearly impossble. Finally elements will let you rate and tag your videos but there is no way to export that information. For pictures you can force it to write the metadata to the IPTC4XMP fields of the file, making your Elements meta data compatible with a zillion other apps. That option is not avialable for video. IDimager writes video metadata information to a sidecare .xmp file, in theory allowing portability. Finally, like literoom elements performs like a dog compared to picasa, fastpicture viewer etc. All of these issues are from my experience with elements 5, maybe elements 6 fixes everything?
Thanks for the great discussion!
Do you have some more info on writing to the metadata to the IPTC4XMP fields? The PSE 6 doc/help doesn't say much.
LoL, actually when I said the problem with IT, I mean the problem with Elements! LoL...
I know there is the 2TB file size limit in IDI, but seriously, I think you would run up against just a few other problems before you hit that limit! LoL... I would have to imagine that if your database file actually got up to 2TB then you are probably looking at hundreds of TB od actual photos. If it were me and I was getting a database of that size I think I would looking at splitting it into a couple of smaller databases so I wasn't trying to load so much into RAM at once!
True. BTW, I just looked at my db file size & it's pushing 4GB already. Time to begin thinking about a clean way to split my work up.
As with most photography questions the answer is "it depends." The scripts extend the functionality of the base product as users have found the need, so it really depends on what you're trying to do.
For me, the most used scripts on the wiki are the Manage Versions, Bibble Integrator, and All-Purpose IPTC Writer (APIW) scripts. Other than that, I have my own that read the tags & ratings from Breezebrowser, and my Archive Creator link.
I honestly wouldn't worry about scripts at first. Get your feet wet with the main app first; it's pretty deep & has a learning curve without messing with adding scripts to the plate right off the bat. Start with getting comfortable with the categories and searches first. Then look at handling metadata (this could start to use APIW--which is one of the most complex & sophisticated scripts available to date with a sizable PDF manual all its own).
I can't answer all these questions, but I do know the answer to a few
Red eye--you can turn that feature off. I never have it touch red eye. for one thing, if you shoot with an external flash, it is not a porblem anyway. Only time I have pics with red eye is when I import from my wife' p/s, then I fix manually.
It does try to make tasks easier by automating, but again, you can turn that off. you can tell it what folders to watch for new files or not, and whether or not to search your whole hd upon start up.
You can write information about the pic to the file. This includes keywords and (I think) other rating--star rating. You do have to tell it to do this; it doesn't do it automatically. the default is to write it to its own database. Another thing I am not sure about is if it can undo/change this information.
I don't know about writing files to video. I don't use if for video
A lot of adobe programs have a 30 day trial. you could try it out for yourself.
I've been using elements for some time. I got a free copy when I bought my EOS10D. That was Ver 2.0. I upgraded to the ver 6.0 a couple of months ago. It had some problems with dual core CPU's. Something about the program not recognizing 2 processors but i found a workaround on the Adobe Forums. I also had to relocate the thumbnail db to a larger drive. Since then, I have been happy with PSE but as you noted,I don't see much mention of it on dgrin.
I'm currently plowing through the trials - I wanted Aperture at first, then I liked Lightroom's interface, then I looked at the price (199 Aperture, 299 I believe for Lightroom).
Then I looked at the education discounts...179 for Aperture, 99 for Lightroom.
I'm currently plowing through the trials - I wanted Aperture at first, then I liked Lightroom's interface, then I looked at the price (199 Aperture, 299 I believe for Lightroom).
Then I looked at the education discounts...179 for Aperture, 99 for Lightroom.
...
So yeah...
I use Lightroom, and I love it. I give it a big thumbs up The cool thing is, there are SmugMug export plugins for both of those programs In lightroom, you don't even need to create JPGs anymore from RAW files to upload them to your Smug account. I am not sure how that works in Aperture.
I use Lightroom, and I love it. I give it a big thumbs up The cool thing is, there are SmugMug export plugins for both of those programs In lightroom, you don't even need to create JPGs anymore from RAW files to upload them to your Smug account. I am not sure how that works in Aperture.
That sounds crazy useful. It's hard for me to accept it, since I was building myself up to Aperture's being cheaper and figuring out what I don't like about Lightroom, and now Lightroom's about half the price of Aperture.
I will say from looking at them:
Lightroom makes me feel more like I'm in a digital workroom, and I feel like I can edit my pictures far faster and often better than I can in Aperture. Adobe's expertise really shows.
Lightroom's much more public about how they're upgrading their things - a plus, as we really have no clue when the next Aperture could hit the market, which, thanks to plug-in support, probably won't be for quite awhile.
Aperture has a better organizational structure to me - which is something Apple's good at. It's also better integrated with OSX and always will be. In a sense, Aperture could eventually go on to replace Photoshop and like applications on the Mac, cutting Adobe out of the Apple market entirely.
Adobe's business entirely depends on thus beating Apple at this game, should Apple ever move to edge them out, since Adobe doesn't really have anything to fall back on (well, PCs, but Apple's already shown they're not too afraid to port things over if they think it'll help their hold on the market).
Aperture's plug-ins are a plus, but many of them exceed the price of the Aperture program. Often I feel I could purchase PS-CS3 over an Aperture plug-in and get more value out of things...aka, purchase an Adobe product instead of externally improving an Apple one.
The fact Aperture takes plug-ins means unlimited expandability, but also can signify Apple's going to take focus off of putting development features in Aperture and more focus on organization.
Adobe, likewise, most likely won't hinder CS3+ sales by building in too much CS3 options (most plug-ins) to Lightroom. People who want that functionality will likely go buy (or torrent, cough cough) CS3.
It's probably just going to come down to price. The most frequent argument is buying into a system, and if you have a Mac the Apple system is (eventually) going to be better than anything else. But unless Adobe surrenders the mac photoediting market to Apple, they'll be in constant competition and so we'll win either way.
I sometimes feel like a blind dog in a meat house. There is some good software outthere.
I have Adobe Lightroom 1.4 and beta 2.0 on Windows, have tried Bibble Pro on Linux and Light Zone on Linux. Also, because is it native to Kubuntu Linux, I have tried DigiKam.
You may have noticed I'm looking at cross platform applications (Windows, OSX and Linux).
I enjoy Adobe Lightroom and am most comfortable with it ($299). Light Zone by Light Crafters uses zones the same way Ansel Adams did in the early part of the last century. I like the user interface more after using it a bit on a 30 day trial. It is a Java application and is a bit slower ($159).
Bibble Pro is probably the fastest application and has numerous add on special function software. I didn't like thier user interface but version 5.0, due out later this year, is much nicer. It runs well on 64 bit operating systems and multi-cores. I have not run it on multi-core Linux but the combination should give you nose bleeds (quick, get the camera and saturate the red) with the speed.
Comments
I don't have many thousands of digital shots yet, but I'm sure that will change, so I'm trying to be proactive and set up a system. I shoot several levels of pro assignment work (commercial, government, industrial, consumer and spec.), I'm slowly investigating stock and, of course, also have the personal/family pix to content with, so the categories features will be very useful. But I'd like to handle everything but image manipulation through one workflow without the need for several management applications.
And that's where iMatch lost me. Right off the bat I find I have to use another package to download and name? I like the keywording features, but at first blush they seem somewhat over complex.
I may take another look. If anything, the price is certainly right. But I'm also interested in IDimage. The marketing promise is sound. Seems to address all the points you've raised for iMatch while remaining (in theory) completely non-proprietary. I like that. The keywording features seem quite impressive too.
Thing is, it seems I can't check out the pro version without shelling out for a license and the free version is completely stripped of the high-value features I'd like to check out! Weird way to do business, me thinks? (Oops, just discovered the trial version. 30 days! Too cool!)
Any comments about IDimage?
By keywording are you referring to the categories? That is the core of the apps strength & is quite simple once you get how it works. You can make it as complex as you like, or keep it nice & simple.
For my database, I have the basic journalistic points as the foundation: Who, What, Where, When, Why, and How. Once all those sections are filled in, you have a fully-categorized image. For When, I have IMatch auto-generate the categories from the EXIF timestamp. For keywords, I have a script (APIW) pull from What and Why, pick the hierarchy apart & stuff the IPTC Keyword field. It sounds much more complex than it is in practice, all I'm doing on a day-to-day basis is some button-pushing.
As I've mentioned before, IMatch does have a slightly daunting learning curve up front, but there's lots of help available (look on the forum there--one user, mtpaper, was a complete noob about two months ago & is now giving advice to new users & is probably one of the more knowledgeable users regarding dates now). But, remember that another very powerful app most of us use has an equally tough--if not steeper, taller--learning curve: PS. It just comes with having so many powerful features.
http://www.chrislaudermilkphoto.com/
I have tried almost all of the softwares that are available. Here is a list
- LightRoom (very good and simple...but slower than a turtoise!) Oh, no network and archival features. Is it even considered a DAM software??? hmmm...food for though.
- IDimager Lite (Seems good, but it is not as easy as LR...this maybe the software for me actually. Well the Pro version due to networking features. But it is a steep learning curve and I do not have that time.)
- IMatch (Once again, same problems as IDimager and is complicated)
- Bridge (Nuff said on this one)
- Picajet (Really Good one, but when I tried it, it couldn't handle RAW files. It seems it can now and can do everything I want. I will have a go at this again. Really cool interface too.)
- Fotostation: (Here is a powerful software, but totally not user friendly.
- IviewMedia Pro (I really like this one. This was the one that I had my heart set on. But, alas, files on the network sloooowed this software way down).
- BreezeBrowser (Not really a DAM software and I hope people would stop recommending this one as that. It isn't. )
- ACDSee Pro - Yes, very nice program, but why does it have to handle IPTC keywords differently???? Why??? Why???? This is a major problem for me...apparently this program has its own way of doing things via labels...or was it categories. Anyways, not very good if you were to change softwares since your data wouldn't transfer easily.
- Couple more that I forget the names of right now. Oh, Picasa...but not really for an advanced amateur.
There are few things I am looking for in the software and I have not found one that incorporated all of them. Here is what a dream DAM software would have to have for me:- Ease of Use. It has to be so easy, that my computer fearing wife can find, sort, re-size, upload pictures without hours of training. Especially keywording and ranking.
- Speed. Light Speed preferable even over Network.
- Full Network support with multiple PCs having full access to all the pictures and no degradation of speed.
- Full support for my RAW files + Jpegs.
- All IPTC data and XMP data should be written to the actual file and not as a sidecar. I hate the concept of sidecars. I realize that there is DNG, but that is ONE more process I have to do. I realize that RAW files can't be changed and so on and so forth. However, one of the above programs did allow me to write directly to the NEF file with no sidecar. I had tested this out.
- Also, my star rankings and color label system shoud be transferable easily to other programs. Including Vista's search features.
- No proprietory standards. I want open standards so that when I want to switch DAM softwares, it is a piece of cake and not a nightmare. Very important to me.
- Easily, very easily upload pictures to smugmug or email but auto resizing and stuff like that.
- Duplicate picture finding across all network drives and folders.
- Finally, some sort of archival system where it keeps track of what I have backed up and what I haven't. Obviously network backing up process is the best.
Now, it maybe me, but I thought this would be pretty easy to find a good DAM software. Not even close. 2 years of search should tell you something. I wish someone would have this wish list in their software.My search continues. Mind you, some of the softwares have newer versions now and I haven't tested these recently. I will go back to Picajet and also try out Expressions Media.
Hope this helps someone.
WildViper
From Nikon D70s > Nikon D300s & D700
Nikon 50/1.8, Tamron 28-75/2.8 1st gen, Nikkor 12-24/4, Nikkor 70-200/2.8 ED VR, SB600, SB900, SB-26 and Gitzo 2 Series Carbon Fiber with Kirk Ballhead
I use ACDSee Pro 2 and find it just right for my needs (I also have a version of LR complementary of Adobe since I owned RSP a RAW converter which they bought).
What I like about it is the speed and the simplicity. I've looked at IDImager which is very feature rich.
But I just don't understand the point made in your post about the IPTC keywords differently. Many many ACDSee Pro 2 users have switched to using IPTC without any problem whatsoever. Pro 2 does have its own database, but one can copy its content to and from IPTC in a breeze. The DB does provide for fast searches etc., but one can totally rely on IPTC to store meta data in a open way.
Most people on the net make comments about ACDSee based on older versions and ACDSee did have some shaky ones, but if one judges on current value for money I think it is a valid alternative. For me the fact that it's easy and has a nice UI is essential because my wife does take photos and we share the PC so she needs to use the same software (for browsing and simple edits) from time to time and there is no way she would even consider touching any of the other DAM software I tried (LR - twice tthe price of IDImager and ACDSee Pro 2, IDImager, Iview).
There is a 30 trial period on most of those so give it a try but don't forget ACDSee Pro 2 and do take some of the comments on the net with a bit of caution (including mine
PS: ACDSee Pro 2 has an uploader to Smugmug (which could be improved; but it does work)
IMatch also has a nice SM uploader. Along with that, it has a synchronizer that builds a category tree so you can see what your website's image structure is from withing IMatch. Very handy. It's got import/export ability to about everything I've seen thrown at it. It is complex at first--the price you pay for all the capability. OK, enough for now.
I'll leave my LR thoughts at this: it just got recalled for trashing your files & the answer to your question is IMHO, no.
http://www.chrislaudermilkphoto.com/
Do tell! Sounds interesting! Is this also true of an SM-based Web site! Will iMatch map my galleries some how and simplify synchronization?
WildViper
From Nikon D70s > Nikon D300s & D700
Nikon 50/1.8, Tamron 28-75/2.8 1st gen, Nikkor 12-24/4, Nikkor 70-200/2.8 ED VR, SB600, SB900, SB-26 and Gitzo 2 Series Carbon Fiber with Kirk Ballhead
1) true, Pro 2 is not good if you want a network system (its Db is single user). In such case IDImager is better.
2) The easiest way to work with categories and keywords is to use the tools supplied in ACDSee (with the nice GUI and metadata stored in own DB) and then do a batch set information which will bulk copy everything to IPTC. One can even create a keyboard shortcut to do it more easily.
It works just fine for me but I guess if you want to bulk enter IPTC keywords directly (without using the bacth set window) then Pro 2 might not be the best choice. I use personally the Microsoft tool (Photo Info) when I want to do that, since Ctrl+Right click in ACDSee gives you the windows pop-up menu and there you can access photo info.
Cheers,
TVE
Yes, it's actually specifically for an SM site using the SmugMug API to read your site category/sub-cat/gallery structure. The script can then search your database & build a category tree with all the uploaded files linked in, so you can see what is loaded where. I've found it very useful. It can be found here: http://wiki.photoolsweb.com/index.php?title=IMSmugTools_-_scripts_to_integrate_IMatch_and_Smugmug
http://www.chrislaudermilkphoto.com/
Does anyone use Photoshop elements for photo management? I have used it for years and really like it. It doesn't seem to get too much respect--I don't know that I have heard anyone mention it on this forum, but it seems to work pretty well for me.
Las Cruces Photographer / Las Cruces Wedding Photographer
Other site
Elements is what my wife uses for our family images
However, at my studio we have been using a program called Canto Cumulus. Cumulus is quite involving, however offers the most comprehensive list of all the features listed in this thread so far. Having used it for about ten years now I can say that the drag and drop catalog feature is very handy. There are many handy scripts such as the one to create jpegs from any collection of images. Cumulus stores images searches in what are called collections which can be very handy. Cumulus also stores groups of images in categories. Having said all this Cumulus is expensive and must be updated about every two years. In addition, there are week long workshops on customizing cumulus, I would rather be shooting thank you:ivar so we run Cumulus as simply as possible.
I do believe image editing and archiving are two separate issues and require separate programs to optimise. It is very easy to open images in CS3 or LR with the click of a button from within Cumulus so I really dont need to use either of these programs for image management. I do write my metadata while in Bridge which is imported during the cataloging process. I am still waiting for that one program myself
Muench Workshops
MW on Facebook
Excelent write up!
I've been in the same quandry the past few months; now I don't feel so bad given your two year search for the same thing.
Here's another resource.
http://www.damroundup.com/
The site does not have a lot of content yet but he has a very good review of ACDSee Pro and IDimager which can also serve as a tutorial of basic features.
For meta data there are several standards
EXIF around forever mainly deals with technical data
IPTC IIM The original IPTC
IPTC Core Schema for XMP (IPTC4XMP)
http://www.iptc.org/pages/index.php
Idealy you would want your application to be compatible with all of the above. Loose one and you will either not be able read old files or not be fully compatible with Vista, and software from Adobe and other major vendors.
Most applications are somewhat IPTC IIM compatiible. Suprisingly a lot are still not fully IPTC4XMP compliant (the standard has been out for 3 years and ACDSee still has not caught up with it as it does not implement the standard defined rating field used by lightroom and vista)
Picasa is an odd bird because it butchers the IPTC IIM specification and is incompatible with IPTC4XMP. Some picasa meta data is not written to the file (for exampe the picasa star rating system) and the picasa keywords/tags use the IPTC IIM fields, so they are readable by other applications, but they add the curious restriction that keywords/tags can only be one world log. For example if you enter Forth of July as a picasa keyword it will fill out 3 tags. Fourth, of, and July. It is because of picasa's lack of support for IPTC4XMP and the poor support for IPTC IIM that I am dumping picasa and moving on.
For myself I'd add two additional requirements:
The software must be actively developed and the developers responsive to problembs/bug fixes.
The software must manage (not necessarily edit) movie files and maybe audio files.
Like wildviper I am completely unable to find something that does everything and that I actually like (maybe IDimager will grow on me, for some reason it rubbed me wrong).
For now I've given up the all in one approach and looking for software for each phase of my workflow that is ITPC/IPTC4XMP compatible.
I read a thread on Arstechnica and have used some of the suggestions:
Downloading/importing:
Stamp2.8
http://www.klingebiel.com/tempest/hd/stamp.php4
Browsing/Deleting duds/IMPT4XMP compliant ratings/color labels/
Fast Picture viewer (cost $$$$ for raw, free for my jpeg)
http://www.fastpictureviewer.com/
IPTC4XMP compliant tags:
Windows Live Photo Gallery 2008
The latter surpised me. It's uses IPTC4XMP ratings and tags, so anything done in WLPG will import nicely into any of the Adobe suite (I'm looking at lightroom in the future). WLPG is fairly fast, and has an OK system for tagging photos.
TODO:
- I need something like fastpicture viewer for browsing videos
- I need a standard way to tag and rate videos. IDimager solves this conundromp with an xmp sidecar file, but I'm not sure what can read that sidecar file. PSE 5 can't read the file, maybe 6 can.
- I need a processing solution
- I need a smugmug upload solution.
Thanks everyone for the great discussion thus far!
Las Cruces Photographer / Las Cruces Wedding Photographer
Other site
I have elements 5 but rarely use it. I was first turned off by it when it tried to apply a red eye fix to all of my files on upload. "Don't touch my files unless I tell you to touch my files" should be the equivalent of "do no harm" for doctors. Also I felt I was loosing touch with my actual files on the hard drive. It seems elements wants to import everything into a mega database and actually browsing to a folder seemed nearly impossble. Finally elements will let you rate and tag your videos but there is no way to export that information. For pictures you can force it to write the metadata to the IPTC4XMP fields of the file, making your Elements meta data compatible with a zillion other apps. That option is not avialable for video. IDimager writes video metadata information to a sidecare .xmp file, in theory allowing portability. Finally, like literoom elements performs like a dog compared to picasa, fastpicture viewer etc. All of these issues are from my experience with elements 5, maybe elements 6 fixes everything?
Thanks for the great discussion!
I can't answer all these questions, but I do know the answer to a few
Red eye--you can turn that feature off. I never have it touch red eye. for one thing, if you shoot with an external flash, it is not a porblem anyway. Only time I have pics with red eye is when I import from my wife' p/s, then I fix manually.
It does try to make tasks easier by automating, but again, you can turn that off. you can tell it what folders to watch for new files or not, and whether or not to search your whole hd upon start up.
You can write information about the pic to the file. This includes keywords and (I think) other rating--star rating. You do have to tell it to do this; it doesn't do it automatically. the default is to write it to its own database. Another thing I am not sure about is if it can undo/change this information.
I don't know about writing files to video. I don't use if for video
A lot of adobe programs have a 30 day trial. you could try it out for yourself.
Las Cruces Photographer / Las Cruces Wedding Photographer
Other site
I used to use Elements before I switched over to IDImager. One of the main thigns I liked about it (and the reason I switched to IDI) is because it actually had versions implemented. THe problem with it, from what I have heard, is that if you are a professional you may run up against the max number of files the program can handle. I'm not sure what that size is though.
That's what I like about my DAM app (IMatch)--the size is limited only by the drive space available.
http://www.chrislaudermilkphoto.com/
LoL, actually when I said the problem with IT, I mean the problem with Elements! LoL...
I know there is the 2TB file size limit in IDI, but seriously, I think you would run up against just a few other problems before you hit that limit! LoL... I would have to imagine that if your database file actually got up to 2TB then you are probably looking at hundreds of TB od actual photos. If it were me and I was getting a database of that size I think I would looking at splitting it into a couple of smaller databases so I wasn't trying to load so much into RAM at once!
Do you have some more info on writing to the metadata to the IPTC4XMP fields? The PSE 6 doc/help doesn't say much.
le pere de www.nikiwalkerphotography.com
True. BTW, I just looked at my db file size & it's pushing 4GB already. Time to begin thinking about a clean way to split my work up.
http://www.chrislaudermilkphoto.com/
I downloaded the SmugMugTools, which seems awesome is and is the whole reason I downloaded IMatch.
For me, the most used scripts on the wiki are the Manage Versions, Bibble Integrator, and All-Purpose IPTC Writer (APIW) scripts. Other than that, I have my own that read the tags & ratings from Breezebrowser, and my Archive Creator link.
I honestly wouldn't worry about scripts at first. Get your feet wet with the main app first; it's pretty deep & has a learning curve without messing with adding scripts to the plate right off the bat. Start with getting comfortable with the categories and searches first. Then look at handling metadata (this could start to use APIW--which is one of the most complex & sophisticated scripts available to date with a sizable PDF manual all its own).
http://www.chrislaudermilkphoto.com/
I've been using elements for some time. I got a free copy when I bought my EOS10D. That was Ver 2.0. I upgraded to the ver 6.0 a couple of months ago. It had some problems with dual core CPU's. Something about the program not recognizing 2 processors but i found a workaround on the Adobe Forums. I also had to relocate the thumbnail db to a larger drive. Since then, I have been happy with PSE but as you noted,I don't see much mention of it on dgrin.
http://webwiz.smugmug.com
I'm currently plowing through the trials - I wanted Aperture at first, then I liked Lightroom's interface, then I looked at the price (199 Aperture, 299 I believe for Lightroom).
Then I looked at the education discounts...179 for Aperture, 99 for Lightroom.
...
So yeah...
www.ivarborst.nl & smugmug
That sounds crazy useful. It's hard for me to accept it, since I was building myself up to Aperture's being cheaper and figuring out what I don't like about Lightroom, and now Lightroom's about half the price of Aperture.
I will say from looking at them:
Lightroom makes me feel more like I'm in a digital workroom, and I feel like I can edit my pictures far faster and often better than I can in Aperture. Adobe's expertise really shows.
Lightroom's much more public about how they're upgrading their things - a plus, as we really have no clue when the next Aperture could hit the market, which, thanks to plug-in support, probably won't be for quite awhile.
Aperture has a better organizational structure to me - which is something Apple's good at. It's also better integrated with OSX and always will be. In a sense, Aperture could eventually go on to replace Photoshop and like applications on the Mac, cutting Adobe out of the Apple market entirely.
Adobe's business entirely depends on thus beating Apple at this game, should Apple ever move to edge them out, since Adobe doesn't really have anything to fall back on (well, PCs, but Apple's already shown they're not too afraid to port things over if they think it'll help their hold on the market).
Aperture's plug-ins are a plus, but many of them exceed the price of the Aperture program. Often I feel I could purchase PS-CS3 over an Aperture plug-in and get more value out of things...aka, purchase an Adobe product instead of externally improving an Apple one.
The fact Aperture takes plug-ins means unlimited expandability, but also can signify Apple's going to take focus off of putting development features in Aperture and more focus on organization.
Adobe, likewise, most likely won't hinder CS3+ sales by building in too much CS3 options (most plug-ins) to Lightroom. People who want that functionality will likely go buy (or torrent, cough cough) CS3.
Any other opinions?
I sometimes feel like a blind dog in a meat house. There is some good software outthere.
I have Adobe Lightroom 1.4 and beta 2.0 on Windows, have tried Bibble Pro on Linux and Light Zone on Linux. Also, because is it native to Kubuntu Linux, I have tried DigiKam.
You may have noticed I'm looking at cross platform applications (Windows, OSX and Linux).
I enjoy Adobe Lightroom and am most comfortable with it ($299). Light Zone by Light Crafters uses zones the same way Ansel Adams did in the early part of the last century. I like the user interface more after using it a bit on a 30 day trial. It is a Java application and is a bit slower ($159).
Bibble Pro is probably the fastest application and has numerous add on special function software. I didn't like thier user interface but version 5.0, due out later this year, is much nicer. It runs well on 64 bit operating systems and multi-cores. I have not run it on multi-core Linux but the combination should give you nose bleeds (quick, get the camera and saturate the red) with the speed.