Would you do this job? What would you Quote?

Robinivich

My gut feeling is not to touch this with a 10-foot pole, but I wanted some opinions:

Craigslist wrote:

Need four to six exterior building photographs of condos and townhouses in Kelowna. We will provide the list of buildings of photos to be taken. Roughley 300 different complexes needed. Therefore, from 1200 to 1800 photographs required. All digital. Lowest setting on camera photos are okay. Please contact us with your quotes for the compensation you are looking for. Needed ASAP. Thank you.

I've recently bought a pair of lenses, an EF-S 10-22mm (which should be perfectly suited to this) and a Sigma 150mm macro,(:barb) and could REALLY use some help paying for them.

At first glance this sounds like more legwork than it's worth, and they're more looking for someone willing to drive to 300 diffferent places than someone with an eye for quality photos. Maybe this is just them not taking enough time with their ad, but it sounds like they could care less if these snaps were taken with a cellphone, so I doubt they're willing to pay anything of consequence. Besides donating my time as a secondary shooter at a wedding, I've never done something for pay, so I was hoping for some feedback from someone who had.

What would you quote for this if you were desperate enough? Should I just pretend I never saw the ad? Finally, if not this, what kind of work is a good way to start paying off the thousands I've put into this hobby?

chuckinsocal

Need more info ...

First, as you already mentioned, what kind of photos do they want? Professional level shots or will just ordinary snapshots do?

How are they going to use the photos?

Are they all exteriors or are there some interiors needed?

By when do they need all these photos? Next weeK? A few weeks? A couple of months?

Where are these locations? Are they all in a reasonably tight circle? Are they spread out all over the map? You need to know about travel time and expenses? How many can you reasonably expect to do in a day?

When would you get paid? Per location? Upon delivery? Every week or month? After all 300 locations are shot?

Can you commit to say 10 locations to see how it goes then make a decison on the rest?

I probably wouldn't blow it off at this point. It may be worth a phone call or an e-mail to at lease find out more. Just keep your eyes and ears wide open and your radar on to detect anything that just doesn't sound right.

It might be a legit opportunity to make some extra money, or it may be a scam, or it may someone looking to screw you out of your time and labor because they don't have any money to pay you with anyway.

Be real cautious, keep your expectations low, ask hard questions, and be prepared to walk away when things just don't seem right.

I'm curious about how it all turns out.

Chuck Cannova

http://chuckinsocal.SmugMug.com
www.customrideportraits.com

bham

With 300 locations. If you figure 5 minutes to get to each location (assuming you map the locations and do so in an organized fashion) and 5 minutes to get out of your car, take the pics, etc. That is about 10 minutes per location so about 6 an hour or about 50 a day. That would be six days work.

I would explain this (the time commitment required) to the individual wanting the quote, then tell him you will bill him actual time, so if you are more effecient he might save some. Then tell him a day rate, and he could figure that times 6 for an estimate. If you want to add in a mileage charge that would be appropriate as well.

$500-800 a day would be fair. (edit: I missed the part about low quality photos ok, this was based on more quality than quantity.)

If he seriously wants someone to do it, it is going to cost a good amount for anybody to committ a weeks worth of time.

SavedByZero

chuckinsocal wrote:

Need more info ...

Where are these locations? Are they all in a reasonably tight circle? Are they spread out all over the map? You need to know about travel time and expenses? How many can you reasonably expect to do in a day?

Clearly the most important part IMHO that goes into the pricing.

Also this sounds like a real estate listing job or shots for an appartment hunters guide. And since they said "lowest camera setting is okay" then I'd assume again small pics of real estate or appartment/townhouses/condos for listings in a guide book. Sounds like an easy job that could take a huge amount of time and lots of travel to do it.

:cavig

Icebear

In any significant real estate market area here in the lower forty-eight, there are people (I won't refer to them as photographers) who specialize in taking snapshots for Multiple Listing Servises. They spend their days just driving around taking (mostly exterior) shots for MLS. They have it down to a science. I guess they make money, and they know just how much quality is required, how much is a waste of their time, and how much the market will bear. A "serious photographer" can not compete with them on a price basis. It's like comparing "serious" portrait photography with JCPenny. For some markets "good enough" really is "good enough."

I hope I'm not stepping on any DGrinner's toes.

Angelo

Got something better to do Saturday?

Look - this is a down and dirty, burn the bridges, project that has little or nothing to do with creativity or photographic integrity.

I'd bet the person responsible for posting that ad and hiring you has, at best, an office manager mentality hiring just another temp-worker.

If I were desperate enough (your words) I'd put forth a request based on an hourly rate + travel (fuel is really expensive these days).

chuckinsocal

Just looking at Google Maps, Kelowna BC doesn't look like it's a large enough town to hold 300 condo and townhouse projects. It's in a mostly rural area so I'm guessing that there will be significant travel to distant cities involved. I'm thinking at least day trips with some overnighters once in a while.

The more I read the ad, the more suspicious I get. The wording seems a little adolescent <sp?> to me. I think there's a lot more here than meets the eye and due caution is in order.

It's just a gut feeling so I could be totally wrong.

I hope you look into it just so we can see what it's really about.

Chuck Cannova
www.customrideportraits.com
http://chuckinsocal.SmugMug.com

chuckinsocal

agree What Angelo just said ...

Chuck Cannova
www.customrideportraits.com
http://chuckinsocal.SmugMug.com

Robinivich

Thanks everyone! Each and every response has been quite helpful!

Kelowna + surrounding area is getting around the 150 000 people mark, with lots of new cardboard-cutout subdivisions springing up :cry. I have a feeling that these are what I'll be visiting, probably only 3-4 real areas, with door to door being enough in those places.

I do have the impression that this is a listings thing for a real estate company, but of course, the ad gives no idea who.

I think that I'm going to send them an e-mail asking for more info, if anything, it'll satisfy our collective curiousity and give a little case study on their expectations

bham

Give them a quote based on time, + either mileage or something for fuel costs + use of your vehicle.

If fuel costs you 3.50 a gallon and your car gets 20 miles per gallon, it costs you $1 to drive 5.7 miles. That is just the fuel not to mention the vehicle maintenance cost that you should a little extra in for.

Angelo

bham wrote:

Give them a quote based on time, + either mileage or something for fuel costs + use of your vehicle.

I hear an echo in here!

Robinivich

Alright, so I'm set to send them off an e-mail:

My name is Robin Taylor, I have several years experience in digital photography and am open to the idea of doing this job, however before providing a quote I would need more information as to the exact nature of the services required.

First, I wish to know which company I would be working for. I also need at least an approximate idea of the locations I would be photographing (the more accurate, the more precise the quote). I'm assuming these photos would be for real estate listings, and if you could please specify the approximate resolution of images you are hoping for (eg. 320/240, 900/600, etc) it would give me a good idea of the equipment and time required. Will these shots include interiors? Or strictly exteriors? Finally if there is any deadline to the project I would need to know.

My pricing would be based on the fuel and time to move between locations, and the time spent at each. There would also be a nominal fee for processing the images to useful output, which would again depend on the quality and application required.

Thank you for your consideration.

Robin Taylor

I'm going to hold off on actually clicking the send button in case anyone weighs in with a pointer.

I'll probably go with government pay rates for distance covered, since they're pretty exactly calculated to cover fuel and maintenance (and dead simple to justify), plus an hourly for my time and a flat fee for processing the images once they're done.

I expect if they're serious about this, they'll send me a reply, but if they're only interested in slaving out some temp worker, they may understand I'm not going to let them screw me out of my time, and leave it alone.

I agree with others, my gut says don't expect much...

Fred Maurer

Sounds good. Like your plan. Please keep us posted!

chuckinsocal

I like it ...

I can see them asking each other questions like: Resolution? Processing? Useful output? lol

Chuck Cannova
www.customrideportraits.com
http://chuckinsocal.SmugMug.com

Angelo

chuckinsocal wrote:

I like it ...

I can see them asking each other questions like: Resolution? Processing? Useful output? lol

Chuck Cannova
www.customrideportraits.com
http://chuckinsocal.SmugMug.com

Robinivich

chuckinsocal wrote:

I like it ...

I can see them asking each other questions like: Resolution? Processing? Useful output? lol

Chuck Cannova

Exactly my plan

Maybe it will give them a moments pause "Hey, there might be a reason photographers still get paid for their work..."

Or not! I guess we'll find out tomorrow!

Robinivich

Well, here's the e-mail reply, they actually seem to be quite nice, though I'm still on the fence about the job itself:

Hello Robin,

Thank you very much for your email.
We appreciate it.

If chosen, the company that you will be working for is Network of Condos
Enterprises Inc.

www.networkofcondos.com

We are a licensing company (like a franchise). We license territories to
realtors who specialize in an area and in condos.
We need photographs of the buildings for the licensees.

The photo required will be for the condos and townhouses in the following
areas:

http://www.mls.ca/map.aspx?AreaID=1787

-Westside and Area
-Kelowna and Area
-Southeast Kelowna

You can see examples of the photos for the buildings at some of our
licensee's websites.

www.newwestcondo.com
www.burnabycondo.com

Photo size and quality requirements are:
min. 640 x 480. About 200K max.

Just exterior photos. And the deadline would be half the pictures by
April 15th and the second half by April 30th. All photos must be
separated into folders. (ie. Each complex's photos are in one folder).

I hope this helps.
After we have chosen the photographer. I will be sending the list of
complexes by March 31. Thank you very much.

Well, looks like Icebear wins the prize! clap MLS indeed...

In terms of geography I think bham's assessment for time probably holds true, and Angelo has probably been quite accurate about exactly what kind of a job this is, so I'm looking at an opportunity to zap my weekends for the next month.

On the other hand, it does seem like these guys will have a pretty good idea what kind of money and what kind of photos to expect, though of course, how much they'll pay really depends on there being some competition, as they do seem pressed for time (send the list by 4 days from now?!). They also, for that matter, seem polite and organized, which are surely good things.

Now, in terms of making this worthwhile to myself, I would say that any less than $200 a day + $.48/km mileage (government rate for BC) and say $50 to process would not be worth giving up weekends for, so from this I get $1250+$.48/km over 6 days. How does this number sound? It works out to $1.08-0.72 per picture (depending on if I do 4 or 6 per location)

Sam

First, I would sat go for it if you want. Money is money. Every job you get, even in photography won't be all fun, and creativity.

Second, there is no way your gona visit, and photograph 50 locations in one 8 hour day. Also, what ever time you have alocated for minor processing, organizing, cd burning, etc needs to be trippled.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

Sam

Robinivich

Sam wrote:

First, I would sat go for it if you want. Money is money. Every job you get, even in photography won't be all fun, and creativity.

Second, there is no way your gona visit, and photograph 50 locations in one 8 hour day. Also, what ever time you have alocated for minor processing, organizing, cd burning, etc needs to be trippled.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

Sam

I understand what you're saying for time overruns, I do expect that the processing will be taking a fair bit more time than the face value, really just typing names for 300 folders and dragging and dropping is going to be tedious, DPP is pretty good for giant batches, so the actual resizing doesn't have me that concerned. 200kb max means I'll only be burning one cd, possibly 2 so they have a backup. These are the kinds of things I can sneak into the evening hours I spend glued to these forums anyways

With regards to locations, my guess is that at least some of the 300 places will be the same "actual" location, so I really mean 300 names on a list, since these are condos rather than houses. I'm still allowing that I might be spending a few days more than I expect, plus some time after work as well, it's light out late enough that I'll be able to squeeze extra in. You do make a very good point though. Would you reccomend adding a couple days onto my invoice? So another 400 for 1650 + mileage? I'll also obviously be spending some nights planning out my excursions.

In terms of the bottom line, 200 a day seemed like too cheap for the sacrifice of my weekends, then I phrased it "40D plus accessories" and felt a lot better about it

Sam

Robinivich wrote:

I understand what you're saying for time overruns, I do expect that the processing will be taking a fair bit more time than the face value, really just typing names for 300 folders and dragging and dropping is going to be tedious, DPP is pretty good for giant batches, so the actual resizing doesn't have me that concerned. 200kb max means I'll only be burning one cd, possibly 2 so they have a backup. These are the kinds of things I can sneak into the evening hours I spend glued to these forums anyways

With regards to locations, my guess is that at least some of the 300 places will be the same "actual" location, so I really mean 300 names on a list, since these are condos rather than houses. I'm still allowing that I might be spending a few days more than I expect, plus some time after work as well, it's light out late enough that I'll be able to squeeze extra in. You do make a very good point though. Would you reccomend adding a couple days onto my invoice? So another 400 for 1650 + mileage? I'll also obviously be spending some nights planning out my excursions.

In terms of the bottom line, 200 a day seemed like too cheap for the sacrifice of my weekends, then I phrased it "40D plus accessories" and felt a lot better about it

My intent in responding wasn't to suggest any particular price quote, but to get you to think in hopefully realistic terms with regard to the amount of time the project will take.

As an example if you calculate it will take you 6 eight hour days, and it takes say 8 eight hour days then your anticipated $25.00 per hour has dropped to $18.75 per hour. If you are way off and it takes 10 eight hour days then your revenue would only be $15.00 per hour.

What happened to their last photographer? If it's a different geographic area, would they let you speak with 1 or 2 other photographers who have done this for them in other locations, so you can more accurately quote them?

I suspect they are looking for a guy with a point and shoot without any real photography experience to run around, and take some OK photos for them on the cheep, but that's just a guess.

Sam

rwells

Don't forget to ask this IMPORTANT question:

What happens if I miss my deadline?


Given that it's extremely hard to tell exactly how long all this will take, it's very possible that you may miss the deadline dates.

Some of these type gigs are setup with stiff "penalties" if you miss a deadline. I've even seen one where even though you were uploading pics, say that you had 95% done, but missed the deadline, they paid you nothing.

chuckinsocal

That comes out to just under $30 an hour plus milage which seems reasonable to me. You might quote a little higher just to build in some bargaining room for your self.

You may also want to include a blurb explaining that you will take photos that maximize the beauty and salability of the properties. How important things like angles, perspectives, framing, composition, lighting conditions, etc are in producing a photo that brings out the best qualities of the properties so they appeal to prospective buyers.

This will set you apart from all those that are just throwing out numbers and may justify your price if it's a bit higher than the competition.

It seems like an ok gig subject to the other comments that have been made. It could look good on your resume, too. Take the next step and see what happens. There's nothing to lose until you sign the contract and by then you should have all the info you need to make an informed decision. I'd still be cautious though. Keep your eyes and ears wide open and your radar on.

Keep us posted.

Chuck Cannova
www.customrideportraits.com
http://chuckinsocal.SmugMug.com

SaltFork

One more suggestion on top of all the good direction you've been given:

Look on those websites they suggested and then drive down the street to the nearest apartment complex and see if you can generate the same quality in the amount of time that you are thinking. It would be a cheap way to avoid a bad situation that might occur if you grossly underbid the work. Also, you might consider attaching one or two of the trial photos with your proposal as an example of the quality of your work.

My $0.02 is all used up now. Good Luck!

- James

cmason

OK maybe this is silly, but I would also check to be sure that what they mean by 'photos' and 'folders' is what you mean...if they mean photos printed on paper in manilla folders, it could eat into the time and budget a bit.....better safe than sorry.

Robinivich

I tell ya guys, this forum is amazing

Everyone's made some good points, I think I will add a little to the quote, A) for bargaining room, in case they want to squeeze it down, to cover my bases in case I'm underestimating things. The blurb to help justify prices might be a bit much, but I think I'd rather they find out I'm too high caliber a photographer than too low of one! And I agree that the more detailed an explanation I give of my quote, the higher their confidence in my ability to handle the organizational aspects of the job (which seems the major factor, rather than the 1800 masterpieces I'll be cranking out)

I think if they try to bargain I have them, this sounds like they want photographers bidding on this, and will likely be going for the lowest (or only) bidder. Time is against them until they hire someone, at which point time will be against me...

And of course, my ears will be plenty perked up for anything going sideways, and special terms and conditions, and walking away is by no means out of the question.

Robinivich

Here's my quote, at least, here's the shape it's taken:

Hi Michael,

Thank you for the reply, it was very helpful! The cost I'll quote you of this exercise should be as follows:

$1400 For the time I estimate necessary to planning and execution, assuming 7-8 full days of driving, and associated planning and organization to maximize efficiency. If this turns out to be a gross over or under-estimate I would consider revising pending having the exact addresses at my disposal.

$50 For the final processing, images will be backed up to multiple cds and hard drives, the final method of delivery will be at your discretion.

$0.48/km for distance covered, to be kept as low as possible by planning (British Columbia Mileage rate for 2007 as per http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/allrates/menu-e.html)
__________________________________
$1450 + 0.48/km Total

My preference would be to divide this into the two halves you've requested. $675+mileage to date at each deadline, with $100 on engagement of my services.

The payment up front struck me as an often used way to ensure they don't waste my time, what do you guys think? I'm not sure if they'll necessarily go for it, hard to say, if roles were reversed I'm not certain if I'd bother to front someone the money, particularly someone who'd responded to a craigslist ad.

chuckinsocal

I like it ... I would still stick in at least one sentence about the quality of the work you plan to produce. Nothing too heavy ... but at least something that indicates that you care about the work you produce and how it will fit their needs.

I think the up front fee is a good idea. These are real estate people and they understand the concept of good faith deposits. But, I think it is too low ... I think it should be $250.

My gut feeling is that this is going to work out just fine for you. Keep us posted.

Chuck Cannova
http://chuckinsocal.SmugMug.com

Robinivich

chuckinsocal wrote:

I like it ... I would still stick in at least one sentence about the quality of the work you plan to produce. Nothing too heavy ... but at least something that indicates that you care about the work you produce and how it will fit their needs.

I think the up front fee is a good idea. These are real estate people and they understand the concept of good faith deposits. But, I think it is too low ... I think it should be $250.

My gut feeling is that this is going to work out just fine for you. Keep us posted.

Chuck Cannova
http://chuckinsocal.SmugMug.com

Thanks for the speedy reply! I'd like to get this e-mail off soon, since obviously these guys are getting short on time, here's a revised ending

I am heavily over-equipped for images of just 640 by 480 dimensions, but having said that this will only make it much easier for me to produce pleasing images that will be helpful to those people browsing and selling alike.

My preference would be to divide this into the two halves you've requested. $600+mileage to date at each deadline, with a $250 deposit on engagement of my services.

chuckinsocal

Lose the "over equipped" thing ... they're not going to care about that. Just say something like "I have the equipment and skills necessary to produce images I know you and your clients (?) will be pleased with. That's enough.

Chuck Cannova
www.customrideportraits.com

Robinivich

chuckinsocal wrote:

Lose the "over equipped" thing ... they're not going to care about that. Just say something like "I have the equipment and skills necessary to produce images I know you and your clients (?) will be pleased with. That's enough.

Chuck Cannova
www.customrideportraits.com

Sounds good!

xris

Whoa!
Well, you've obviously put a lot of thought into this. And I do hope I'm not being too insensitive here. But I just gotta say, no one could deliver pizza for that kind of money! After 30 years of shooting, that's the lowest low-ball quote I've ever seen! You're gonna work your butt off and add serious depreciation to your vehicle for what? Post processing alone is going to end up taking you several days. And don't forget the customer service aspect. You have no idea how many reshoots these folks might want because you've never worked with them before.

No one can run a serious business on $30.00/hr. My plumber charges $150.00 just to come out of his office! The person sending you the e-mails is probably making more than that with full benefits AND for every hour worked! Not just 'camera time'. A half-decent machanic charges at least $85.00/hr!

Bare-butt, pick-me-up-off-the-street-in front-of-the-men's-shelter guys make $15.00. No gear! No knowledge! No tax!

Even if you do charge $30.00/hr, at the very least include your post processing and customer service time!

And keep in mind. Though there is little 'art' involved in this project, these are commercial use photos. It IS your gear, your vehicle, your knowledge and, most important, your risk. If you get hurt, if they don't pay, or if someone takes issue with you shooting their home... it's all yours too deal with. You don't have an 'employer' to cover your butt. You are an independent contractor.

Most important. Remember you're setting the bar for other photogs in the area. And I'll bet they won't much appreciate being low-balled with an unrealistic quote.

Have you considered quoting a piece-work rate. So much per photo? Even $10.00 per photo looks a lot less daunting while giving the client a convenient way to cost out the expense.