Well, you've obviously put a lot of thought into this. And I do hope I'm not being too insensitive here. But I just gotta say, no one could deliver pizza for that kind of money! After 30 years of shooting, that's the lowest low-ball quote I've ever seen!
You make a good point in your post, but it is funny because when i saw his quote I was thinking "they'll never go for that, it is too high". That is just based on personal experience replying to craigslist ads. The folks that post on CL and don't post any of the company info (name, contact phone, etc) are usually looking for something in the range of $8-$10/hr. That is Horrible, I agree, but that is how it is here.
I don't want to say too much because this thread would turn into a huge argument and I'm sure there are other threads for that, but I don't think the OP is hurting the industry in his area (not that I know anything of his area and you might since you are in the same country). $30/hr for a lot of people is good money. It really all depends on where you live and what the cost of living is in the area. Obviously the CL ad is not looking for a big photo studio/guy at $150/hr or they would just call one from the phone book.
You are correct. And your point is well taken. But take note. (And it's an important one that far too many people miss.)
There is a HUGE difference between 'making' $30.00/hr and 'charging' $30.00/hr.
I'm just guessing here, because I don't know what the actual costs and time will be for this project, but a very good guess would be that this photog, shooting at that quoted price, may 'make' $5 or $6 per worked hour at the end of the day. That's before taxes and only if all goes well. It'll basically turn out to be the entire month for about $1,500 GROSS!
After gas, depreciation of car, gear and computer, taxes, rent and so on, this one will probably actually loose money.
A 50 hour work week is about 200 hours per month. That's roughly 10 minutes per pic -- travel, shooting time, post processing, administration and customer service time included. Won't happen! There's at least another 100 hours in there.
Also remember that there is no fair comparison between 'earning' an hourly rate as an employee and 'charging' an hourly rate as a fee. They simply do not compare. If you work for me at $25.00/hr, you GET $25.00/hr. Sure, you have to pay taxes and cloth yourself. But that's it. And remember, the employer still has more expenses on top of the $25.00/hr. In fact it often costs the employer around twice that once everything else is paid. (Benefits, office space, business taxes, business insurance, business vehicles, and so on.) So the real cost is much high than the stated hourly rate.
One more point: If your argument were true, then why doesn't the client simply hire someone to do it for them at $10.00/hr? Would seem easier, wouldn't it?
The difference is... they take all risks (an employee's actions are the the responsibility of the employer) and also have to manage/supervise to make sure the employee is not waisting time or acting improperly (trespassing, etc.).
You make some good points Xris, and as always, input is apreciated!
I think there are two sides to this, on the one, I don't expect to make $30/hr out of this, I expect to be devoting a fair amount of time I haven't budgeted for, and I'm quoting based on my needing to accomodate some of this. On the other hand these guys are, as has been said, trying for some lowest bid mass production work. If they had some minimum wage office help here, they'd probably be the ones taking a company car and having a bad time with their cellphone doing this instead. I'm hoping my quote will hit something of a middle ground, I don't think they're looking for a "PRO", but I don't want to get paid like a flunkie.
The milage I'm quoting is designed by the government to pretty exactly cover the vehicle side of the equation, so I'm not horribly concerned there. (my father, as an example, has to drive between kelowna and vancouver, several hundred kilometres, and make return trips, and has found that this rate typically covers gas plus the odd insurance deductible for replacing his windshield, etc...)
Long distance driving, I see your point. Especially if you are an employee being paid for the drive. (Though I doubt it covers all costs, even at that.)
But how about this one? You spend 5 hours shooting multiple units, all within a 10k area. Figure $4.80 will cover your car costs?
Anyway. Perhaps I'm being too critical. Go for it. And best of luck. I'll be very interested to hear how it all works out.
Long distance driving, I see your point. Especially if you are an employee being paid for the drive. (Though I doubt it covers all costs, even at that.)
But how about this one? You spend 5 hours shooting multiple units, all within a 10k area. Figure $4.80 will cover your car costs?
Anyway. Perhaps I'm being too critical. Go for it. And best of luck. I'll be very interested to hear how it all works out.
I think you're right on the money, city driving is harder on a vehicle, a fuel budget, etc, though you tend to replace fewer windshields
The way I look at it is that the exact amount of that rate is not hugely important to myself, I don't need those numbers to provide hard and fast coverage of all my expenses, I just want to give myself justification and some wiggle room should it turn out bigger than expected if and when I have a better view of the work. I imagine that 90% of the people on this board, and on a typical day this includes myself, put quite a few miles on without any reimbursement, but do make enough to cover it as an expense regardless. If this comes out of the 20-25-30 an hour or whatever, it still works for me, and it would take an impossibly large amount of driving for that alone to counteract the financial bonus of this job.
It would be a legitimate commercial assignment for your resume. If you make a few $$$ toward your lens collection, Woo-hoo! If you break even, you at least have that. I don't do "break even" any more, but a few years ago I probably would have. Go fer it. If you get it, super. If you don't, Meh, ya didn't want it anyway.
John :
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
My wife and I have worked for a company doing similar work. We actually get assignments to take photos of damaged signs at fast food restauraunts so that they can assess damage before sending in contractors. We charge $40 per site which includes about an hour worth of work and mileage. Beware of any ad on Craigslist......there are all kinds of scams out there.
Just received the "Thank you but we've gone with someone else" e-mail I'd been hoping for
It was sinking in just how little time this job would have left me for anything else, and fortunately I expect they've found someone to do this for less! Since their deadline had been March 31st to get the list out there, and this standard thanks but no thanks e-mail would have taken 45 seconds flat to send out, I think it might be fair to conclude that they wanted to wait a few more days for a more interesting offer Still, no regrets on my part!
Anyhow felt I'd better post the conclusion to this little story for posterity and anyone else who finds themselves in a similar position. Thanks again to everyone who responded, this has been a major learning experience!
... Anyhow felt I'd better post the conclusion to this little story for posterity and anyone else who finds themselves in a similar position. Thanks again to everyone who responded, this has been a major learning experience!
Sorry you didn't get the job. And thanks for the heads-up. It's been an intereresting process.
Take note, though. It may sound counter-intuative, but one of the most valuable lessons I've learned over the years is that, when doing commercial work, underquoting is FAR worse than overquoting.
Most times the client will have a general idea of what a job might cost. If you come in too low, they assume you don't know what you're doing. If you come in too high, they'll often ask you for more info -- unless you're so far out of the ballpark it's obvious you're on another planet.
If they don't have an idea of cost, they will often ask for a swack of quotes and simply pick one that falls somewhere in the middle.
Second, don't be afraid to ask if they have a budget, then try to stay within it. The number will help you identify what level of quality and service they are expecting. They say $300.00, you know it's quick and dirty point-and-shoot. They say $3000.00, you know they want more.
My guess is this was at least an $8000,00 job. ($10.00 per unit is a drop in the bucket.)
Sure would be useful if you can find out who's doing it, for how much and if it was worth it?
Sorry I didn't find this thread earlier, although it doesn't sound like I could have provided any suggestions that would have changed your situation.
However, I have done some work like this for a small local real estate company when they need pictures for flyers and the web. The pictures of of their nicer rental properties and properties that are for sale. I generally charge $150~$200 per unit/house. That's what I found people were charging locally for photographing properties. It usually takes me 30 minutes to an hour to photograph the property.
Granted, 300 units @ $150 a unit = some seriously nice new equiptment!
Comments
You make a good point in your post, but it is funny because when i saw his quote I was thinking "they'll never go for that, it is too high". That is just based on personal experience replying to craigslist ads. The folks that post on CL and don't post any of the company info (name, contact phone, etc) are usually looking for something in the range of $8-$10/hr. That is Horrible, I agree, but that is how it is here.
I don't want to say too much because this thread would turn into a huge argument and I'm sure there are other threads for that, but I don't think the OP is hurting the industry in his area (not that I know anything of his area and you might since you are in the same country). $30/hr for a lot of people is good money. It really all depends on where you live and what the cost of living is in the area. Obviously the CL ad is not looking for a big photo studio/guy at $150/hr or they would just call one from the phone book.
There is a HUGE difference between 'making' $30.00/hr and 'charging' $30.00/hr.
I'm just guessing here, because I don't know what the actual costs and time will be for this project, but a very good guess would be that this photog, shooting at that quoted price, may 'make' $5 or $6 per worked hour at the end of the day. That's before taxes and only if all goes well. It'll basically turn out to be the entire month for about $1,500 GROSS!
After gas, depreciation of car, gear and computer, taxes, rent and so on, this one will probably actually loose money.
A 50 hour work week is about 200 hours per month. That's roughly 10 minutes per pic -- travel, shooting time, post processing, administration and customer service time included. Won't happen! There's at least another 100 hours in there.
Also remember that there is no fair comparison between 'earning' an hourly rate as an employee and 'charging' an hourly rate as a fee. They simply do not compare. If you work for me at $25.00/hr, you GET $25.00/hr. Sure, you have to pay taxes and cloth yourself. But that's it. And remember, the employer still has more expenses on top of the $25.00/hr. In fact it often costs the employer around twice that once everything else is paid. (Benefits, office space, business taxes, business insurance, business vehicles, and so on.) So the real cost is much high than the stated hourly rate.
One more point: If your argument were true, then why doesn't the client simply hire someone to do it for them at $10.00/hr? Would seem easier, wouldn't it?
The difference is... they take all risks (an employee's actions are the the responsibility of the employer) and also have to manage/supervise to make sure the employee is not waisting time or acting improperly (trespassing, etc.).
I think there are two sides to this, on the one, I don't expect to make $30/hr out of this, I expect to be devoting a fair amount of time I haven't budgeted for, and I'm quoting based on my needing to accomodate some of this. On the other hand these guys are, as has been said, trying for some lowest bid mass production work. If they had some minimum wage office help here, they'd probably be the ones taking a company car and having a bad time with their cellphone doing this instead. I'm hoping my quote will hit something of a middle ground, I don't think they're looking for a "PRO", but I don't want to get paid like a flunkie.
The milage I'm quoting is designed by the government to pretty exactly cover the vehicle side of the equation, so I'm not horribly concerned there. (my father, as an example, has to drive between kelowna and vancouver, several hundred kilometres, and make return trips, and has found that this rate typically covers gas plus the odd insurance deductible for replacing his windshield, etc...)
But how about this one? You spend 5 hours shooting multiple units, all within a 10k area. Figure $4.80 will cover your car costs?
Anyway. Perhaps I'm being too critical. Go for it. And best of luck. I'll be very interested to hear how it all works out.
The way I look at it is that the exact amount of that rate is not hugely important to myself, I don't need those numbers to provide hard and fast coverage of all my expenses, I just want to give myself justification and some wiggle room should it turn out bigger than expected if and when I have a better view of the work. I imagine that 90% of the people on this board, and on a typical day this includes myself, put quite a few miles on without any reimbursement, but do make enough to cover it as an expense regardless. If this comes out of the 20-25-30 an hour or whatever, it still works for me, and it would take an impossibly large amount of driving for that alone to counteract the financial bonus of this job.
Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
Doug and Cathy
www.goldenstarphoto.com
http://www.facebook.com/artist.goldenstarphoto?ref=hl
It was sinking in just how little time this job would have left me for anything else, and fortunately I expect they've found someone to do this for less! Since their deadline had been March 31st to get the list out there, and this standard thanks but no thanks e-mail would have taken 45 seconds flat to send out, I think it might be fair to conclude that they wanted to wait a few more days for a more interesting offer
Anyhow felt I'd better post the conclusion to this little story for posterity and anyone else who finds themselves in a similar position. Thanks again to everyone who responded, this has been a major learning experience!
Take note, though. It may sound counter-intuative, but one of the most valuable lessons I've learned over the years is that, when doing commercial work, underquoting is FAR worse than overquoting.
Most times the client will have a general idea of what a job might cost. If you come in too low, they assume you don't know what you're doing. If you come in too high, they'll often ask you for more info -- unless you're so far out of the ballpark it's obvious you're on another planet.
If they don't have an idea of cost, they will often ask for a swack of quotes and simply pick one that falls somewhere in the middle.
Second, don't be afraid to ask if they have a budget, then try to stay within it. The number will help you identify what level of quality and service they are expecting. They say $300.00, you know it's quick and dirty point-and-shoot. They say $3000.00, you know they want more.
My guess is this was at least an $8000,00 job. ($10.00 per unit is a drop in the bucket.)
Sure would be useful if you can find out who's doing it, for how much and if it was worth it?
However, I have done some work like this for a small local real estate company when they need pictures for flyers and the web. The pictures of of their nicer rental properties and properties that are for sale. I generally charge $150~$200 per unit/house. That's what I found people were charging locally for photographing properties. It usually takes me 30 minutes to an hour to photograph the property.
Granted, 300 units @ $150 a unit = some seriously nice new equiptment!
initialphotography.smugmug.com
"The camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera" - Dorothea Lange