40D + 580 EX II = Max shutter 1/250? Help!

Shima

Hey there, I was at a wedding today, thankfully not one I was getting paid for, but anyway....

I tried to use fill flash during the outdoors ceremony since she was walking under trees to get to the gazebo... and well with my 580 EX II on the 40D *kept* going down to 1/250 and ignoring what I had set it to on manual. I turn the flash off... it keeps my faster shutter speed.

I checked in the custom settings and I have the tv/av thing references 1/250 on auto and not the forced 1/250 (but that says tv/av not manual...so again confusion)...

I could really use guidance so I can figure out how to correct this before I start shooting my pay weddings later this month with the new 40D body. My Rebel XTi never once gave me a problem like that.

Thanks in advance...

DavidTO

Read what your flash manual has to say about High Speed Shutter or High Speed Sync, I forget which.

cmason

Thats the sync speed for the camera and flash. Put the 580 in Hi speed sync mode and shoot what ever speed you like. You do not get full power from the flash in high sync but for fill flash you dont need it

Shima

cmason wrote:

Thats the sync speed for the camera and flash. Put the 580 in Hi speed sync mode and shoot what ever speed you like. You do not get full power from the flash in high sync but for fill flash you dont need it

Thanks I'll check the manual and figure out how to set that. I didn't need full power so that sounds like it's exactly what I need to set since I was just looking to fill in some shadows in an otherwise very bright setting.

jbakerphoto

Shima wrote:

Thanks I'll check the manual and figure out how to set that. I didn't need full power so that sounds like it's exactly what I need to set since I was just looking to fill in some shadows in an otherwise very bright setting.

I have been trying to figure this out as well. I somewhat made headway last weekend. You do have to set the high speed sync but You might also need to play with the Flash exposure compensation on the negative end. It was still very hot even in high speed sync at least with the pictures I was takeing but the - FEC did make it right.

on the 580 ex 1 the high speed sync is the button that makes the z to and arrow.....Z_>..if that makes sense.....

Ooohh yea I mine as well give props to Scott Q.... for his post a couple of weeks ago. He basically explained all of this..... I did try it and it did work.... Here is the link.
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=92656

Tee Why

Set your high speed sync on the flash. In custom function make sure that the flash speed is set to auto and not 1/250 for Av mode (IIRC).

In Av and Tv mode, the flash works to fill in and in M and P mode, it tries to become the main source for the exposure. If you want less power from the flash, try turning down the EVC.

cmason

unclejon wrote:

I have been trying to figure this out as well. I somewhat made headway last weekend. You do have to set the high speed sync but You might also need to play with the Flash exposure compensation on the negative end. It was still very hot even in high speed sync at least with the pictures I was takeing but the - FEC did make it right.

Agree, flash photography is often more luck than science. For fill flash, I find that what works for me is to shoot on my normal Av mode, since I prefer to use aperture for composure purposes, set the flash on high speed sync, and then dial down the power to -1 2/3 EV. I do this for bright sunlite locations. As the day gets later, I will add back power, -1 1/3 at early dusk, and then around -2/3 for full on dusk.

I find this works best for me, and this all based on the excellent Pop Photo "Cheat sheet' that has been linked before: Cheat Sheet

evoryware

IMO, ETTL is luck. Manual is science. :hide

Shima

evoryware wrote:

IMO, ETTL is luck. Manual is science. :hide

Elaborate please?

evoryware

I was just joking based on my own frustrations learning it, hence the ducking. I got tired of (ETTL) and decided to learn manual instead.
Now that I understand manual better, ETTL is not that hard to understand, but I still use manual more often.
I'm consistently amazed when I see Jeffreaux and Scott Quier's and Pathfinders (among others) use of ETTL. It's just not the way I'm more comfortable driving. My personal results were too inconsistent with it.

For example, I'm about to shoot my calico cat laying on this plastic bag of shredded paper. I have my camera showing a distance of 5 ft., set aperture of 2.8, set shutter speed of 1/320, and ISO 200, and I manually pick the flash output at 1/xth I know what I'm going to get everytime regardless of subject reflectivity. Whether the white bag, her white chin, the tan patch of her face, or the black patch of her face dominate the frame, as long as I keep that distance the flash exposure should be consistent.
But I'm learning how to properly compensate with ETTL so it's all good.

Shima

evoryware wrote:

I was just joking based on my own frustrations learning it, hence the ducking. I got tired of (ETTL) and decided to learn manual instead.
Now that I understand manual better, ETTL is not that hard to understand, but I still use manual more often.
I'm consistently amazed when I see Jeffreaux and Scott Quier's and Pathfinders (among others) use of ETTL. It's just not the way I'm more comfortable driving. My personal results were too inconsistent with it.

For example, I'm about to shoot my calico cat laying on this plastic bag of shredded paper. I have my camera showing a distance of 5 ft., set aperture of 2.8, set shutter speed of 1/320, and ISO 200, and I manually pick the flash output at 1/xth I know what I'm going to get everytime regardless of subject reflectivity. Whether the white bag, her white chin, the tan patch of her face, or the black patch of her face dominate the frame, as long as I keep that distance the flash exposure should be consistent.
But I'm learning how to properly compensate with ETTL so it's all good.

Ah ok cool, wasn't sure if there were some pearls of wisdom I should be learning about manual flash

ziggy53

evoryware wrote:

I was just joking based on my own frustrations learning it, hence the ducking. I got tired of (ETTL) and decided to learn manual instead.
Now that I understand manual better, ETTL is not that hard to understand, but I still use manual more often.
I'm consistently amazed when I see Jeffreaux and Scott Quier's and Pathfinders (among others) use of ETTL. It's just not the way I'm more comfortable driving. My personal results were too inconsistent with it.

For example, I'm about to shoot my calico cat laying on this plastic bag of shredded paper. I have my camera showing a distance of 5 ft., set aperture of 2.8, set shutter speed of 1/320, and ISO 200, and I manually pick the flash output at 1/xth I know what I'm going to get everytime regardless of subject reflectivity. Whether the white bag, her white chin, the tan patch of her face, or the black patch of her face dominate the frame, as long as I keep that distance the flash exposure should be consistent.
But I'm learning how to properly compensate with ETTL so it's all good.

Canon E-TTL II does work pretty well but you have to make sure you are using:

1) A lens that provides distance information. (Most of the modern Canon zoom lenses do but there are still some very nice primes that do not. Some 3rd party lenses do and some do not, but I am not aware of a comprehensive list.)
2) A camera body with the E-TTL II circuitry.
3) A flash with the E-TTL II circuitry.

If you use tilt or swivel on the flash then the camera and flash revert to E-TTL, which no longer includes distance information to keep the flash from overexposing with images that include dark backgrounds (or no backgrounds, like outdoors) or underexposure when the background is very light or reflective. In other words, E-TTL is not much better than an "auto" type flash in some instances.

cmason

Shima,

Flash photography is, IMHO, the hardest thing I have done in photography. ETTL does not necessarily make this easier.

ETTL is brilliant in well lit locations, but in darker ones, it gets really tricky. You have to remember what the camera does in the settings it offers. In P mode, it basically assumes that the scene is to be lit by the flash, and adjusts accordingly, never going below 1/60th.

In Tv and Av, it assumes that you want to meter for the ambient, and use the flash for fill. Now, outdoors in daylight, this is absolutely brilliant, and makes you look like a lighting wizard. But indoors in the evening, it can be horribly frustrating. If there is not enough light, you will find yourself taking photos a 1/4 sec or worse, with little way to fix it.

Of course in M, you can simply set the camera as you wish, forgetting the meter altogether, and hoping the flash will follow along. If it doesn't, then you reduce the power on the flash till you get it like you want it, after you have run out of aperture.

This is what is so frustrating about Flash on Canon cameras, and why you often hear people mention to just shoot manual: Tv and Av are often useless, and heaven forbid you use P

By they way, when I am not in a mood to mess with it, I will use P, just to get a photo, especailly at family gatherings. P is servicable when using bounce flash indoors, but YMMV.

Do yourself a favor and read this entire, excellent article: http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index.html

Shima

cmason wrote:

Shima,

Flash photography is, IMHO, the hardest thing I have done in photography. ETTL does not necessarily make this easier.

ETTL is brilliant in well lit locations, but in darker ones, it gets really tricky. You have to remember what the camera does in the settings it offers. In P mode, it basically assumes that the scene is to be lit by the flash, and adjusts accordingly, never going below 1/60th.

In Tv and Av, it assumes that you want to meter for the ambient, and use the flash for fill. Now, outdoors in daylight, this is absolutely brilliant, and makes you look like a lighting wizard. But indoors in the evening, it can be horribly frustrating. If there is not enough light, you will find yourself taking photos a 1/4 sec or worse, with little way to fix it.

Of course in M, you can simply set the camera as you wish, forgetting the meter altogether, and hoping the flash will follow along. If it doesn't, then you reduce the power on the flash till you get it like you want it, after you have run out of aperture.

This is what is so frustrating about Flash on Canon cameras, and why you often hear people mention to just shoot manual: Tv and Av are often useless, and heaven forbid you use P

By they way, when I am not in a mood to mess with it, I will use P, just to get a photo, especailly at family gatherings. P is servicable when using bounce flash indoors, but YMMV.

Do yourself a favor and read this entire, excellent article: http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index.html

So here's a question... outdoors, like at the wedding I went to Saturday, where it was sunny, but she was walking under trees and I just wanted to light up the shadows on her face, should I have shot in Av / Tv instead of M?

Shima

Shima wrote:

So here's a question... outdoors, like at the wedding I went to Saturday, where it was sunny, but she was walking under trees and I just wanted to light up the shadows on her face, should I have shot in Av / Tv instead of M?

Oddly I never had problems using my rebel with the 580 for outdoor fill flash, go figure

cmason

Shima wrote:

So here's a question... outdoors, like at the wedding I went to Saturday, where it was sunny, but she was walking under trees and I just wanted to light up the shadows on her face, should I have shot in Av / Tv instead of M?

I find Av to work well outdoors in good light. Since the camera is actually measuring ambient and adding fill, this is why it works so well. With manual, you are measuring ambient and guessing for fill.

By the way, I have also found that reducing the output gives me better results as well. Simply reduce to -1 1/3 ev and see how you like it.

Shima

cmason wrote:

I find Av to work well outdoors in good light. Since the camera is actually measuring ambient and adding fill, this is why it works so well. With manual, you are measuring ambient and guessing for fill.

By the way, I have also found that reducing the output gives me better results as well. Simply reduce to -1 1/3 ev and see how you like it.

Will give that a try next time. Thanks

Scott_Quier

Something else I've found with the E-TTL (and E-TTL II, for that matter) is that the camera can be easily fooled by the reflectivity of the scene being photographed. If you're shooting a bunch of guys in dark tuxes, the flash goes crazy and tries to turn the suits to 18% (more or less) gray - way over-exposed.

Contra-wise, fill the frame with the bride and now her lovely white gown is a dingy gray :cry

Indoors, the fix I've found that work is a little applied brain power. In the first case (the guys), dial the FEC down about a stop. For the second, dial it up to about +1. Oh, and chimp especial on the gown shots - don't want to blow the highlights!

ziggy53

Scott_Quier wrote:

... chimp especial on the gown shots - don't want to blow the highlights!

This is especially important to understand. If you underexpose by a bit, as long as you have a moderate ISO and you shoot RAW you can generally recover some or even much of the shadow detail in many cameras. It becomes important to choose cameras which don't intensionally "clip" or "squash" the shadows to mask shadow noise.

If you overexpose and some of the highlight information is lost, it is lost forever.

The bridal gown and ruffled white shirts are the most problematic.

Some of the newer cameras provide a "Highlight Tone Priority" mode or "Active D-Lighting" to help compress the extreme tones in scenes of broad dynamic range, but do it in a pleasing manner. While they work in different ways, both have desirable results.

It appears that 14 bit capture may also help a bit and as image processing engines and RAW processing software matures, it may lead to improved color retention in both shadow and highlight detail as well.

Compounding the problem is a flash that is "hot" in the center and feathers darker to the sides. It is extremely important to use a flash and modifier that produces an even "field" of light with no hot spots.

The whole process is such a delicate balancing act.

cmason

Do tell Ziggy, how does that 40D work in these situations?

ziggy53

cmason wrote:

Do tell Ziggy, how does that 40D work in these situations?

So far, I am still using the 40D as backup and the 1D MKII as primary, but some tests at events show the 40D is a very good performer.

I have not run side-by-side tests of those two cameras (40D and 1D MKII) but I can safely say the 40D is at least the equal of the 1D MKII in terms of shadow and highlight. I am very impressed.

I "trust" my 1D MKII more is all.

Shima

ziggy53 wrote:

So far, I am still using the 40D as backup and the 1D MKII as primary, but some tests at events show the 40D is a very good performer.

I have not run side-by-side tests of those two cameras (40D and 1D MKII) but I can safely say the 40D is at least the equal of the 1D MKII in terms of shadow and highlight. I am very impressed.

I "trust" my 1D MKII more is all.

I'm fairly certain you can do highlight tone priority on the 40D under custom settings, should this be enabled?

OsirisPhoto

Shima wrote:

I'm fairly certain you can do highlight tone priority on the 40D under custom settings, should this be enabled?

If you think you might need it, and can live without ISO100 & 3200, then yes

I have it enabled on one of the custom dial settings for landscapes... but off for the custom setting for 'ultra dark' indoor shots

Shima

OsirisPhoto wrote:

If you think you might need it, and can live without ISO100 & 3200, then yes

I have it enabled on one of the custom dial settings for landscapes... but off for the custom setting for 'ultra dark' indoor shots

It disabled 100 and 3200? I'm not so ok with that.

Art Scott

I wasted tons of film trying to learn about fill flash until I purchased as flash meter and allowed that do my balancing of sunlite and flash....it is not acure all but it sure helped me in the early years and normally you do not have a lot of time during a paid for event to study historgrams of for much chimping......especially at weddings time is of the utmost to work fast and proficiently[of course you already knew that]....but at those times i rely heavily on my meter.....1 quik flash, 1 meter reading and your on your way until the lighting changes drastically....I mean we do shoot raw for all these once in a lifetime events..........

joshhuntnm

it is a little hunt and peck, but go at it this way: make an intelegent guess, shoot, change the flash setting on the flash. I have got really comfortable changing the setting on the flash and have learned that "right" varies widely.

you probably knew this, but P and TV/AV work with flash differently. TV/AV get the exposure right as if the flash were not flashing. Which is why, if you set it on TV, the time will drop to way low--a second or more in a dark room. P is going to set the shutter at 60 (on the xti, I assume the same for others) and open the aperature as much as it can/ is needed.

A nice effect is to raise the ISO some, set the shutter on 30 or so, so you get lots of ambiant light.

I need to shut up. I am a Sophmore babbling in a room full of graduate students.

evoryware

Oh, I do mean ETTL-II with my flashes and cameras.

Shima wrote:

It disabled 100 and 3200? I'm not so ok with that.

Also, Shima, you can also make Highlight Tone Priority a "My Menu" item to switch on and off as you please if you need the other ISO's. Or like said above you can use the C1, C2, C3 camera user profiles.

Scott_Quier

joshhuntnm wrote:

I need to shut up. I am a Sophmore babbling in a room full of graduate students.

I feel the same way when Pathfinder, Ziggy, and a host of others post. I just sit back in awe, trying to absorb the knowledge they are laying down. Most of what I know, I've learned either directly from them or because of something they have said or a link to which they have pointed. It's amazaing! :ivar

pathfinder

Shima wrote:

Hey there, I was at a wedding today, thankfully not one I was getting paid for, but anyway....

I tried to use fill flash during the outdoors ceremony since she was walking under trees to get to the gazebo... and well with my 580 EX II on the 40D *kept* going down to 1/250 and ignoring what I had set it to on manual. I turn the flash off... it keeps my faster shutter speed.

I checked in the custom settings and I have the tv/av thing references 1/250 on auto and not the forced 1/250 (but that says tv/av not manual...so again confusion)...

I could really use guidance so I can figure out how to correct this before I start shooting my pay weddings later this month with the new 40D body. My Rebel XTi never once gave me a problem like that.

Thanks in advance...

Hi again, Shima,

High Speed Synch was discussed here and here.

You and I discussed EOS flash settings here

The refusal of an EOS camera to honor a set shutter speed in Manual Mode with an EOS flash, is always disconcerting to me, until I remember that shutter speeds higher than 1/200th or 1/250th will not illuminate the entire frame as the focal plane slit passes across the silicon sensor in such a manner that a single burst of light is totally unable to illuminate the entire sensor. With High Speed Synch activated, the flash emits a series of pulses, that allow the illumination to spread across the entire sensor surface over a longer duration of time as the narrow slit aperture passes across the sensor face, allowing "higher" shutter speeds ( at a modest cost of maximum flash power ) to even 1/4000th of a second. This ability is necessary for fill flash in bright sunlight, and very useful too!

cmason

by the way, anyone know if the flash set to high-speed sync always emitts multple flashes, or only when the shutter speed is set above the sync speed? Wonder if you can leave it in high-speed sync and it functions 'normally' until you go above 1/200?

jeffreaux2

There is no particularly good reason not to make a habit of setting your flash to High Speed Sych every time you slip it into the shoe unless you know for certain that you will be using shutter speeds below 1/250. I (try) to make it a habit when shooting outdoors to ALWAYS push that button when I turn on the flash. After that it is a simple matter of riding the FEC wheel to achieve the desired "look". I wish it were set to HSS as default, and had to be changed for the traditional synch speeds. I shoot ETTL. Some like it....some don't.