Thats gotta be the biggest bananas Ive ever seen hanging there in the BG.
I noticed them too. They must be very close, just above the cantaloupes, but the eye projects them further back over the watermelons, thus making them gargantuan... Interesting example of a classic effect (they used it in the last Harry Potter flick alot)
No detail? There was when I last went to the loo, thank g*d!!
Do you mean the melons are bright? Too right they are, and I can see every blemish (except where the sun is reflected).
Say more, please, in plain English...
And thanks!
Neil
"Each file has 10 channels" (Dan Margoulis)
Open your file in PS, bring the Info panel up and watch CMYK section as you hover over the melons. Y (Yellow) will pretty much stay at 100% the whole time. Which is a tell-tell sign of an oversaturation, i.e. you probaly already lost some details (unless you shot RAW and can lower the exposure, at least in that corner of the image, say in ACR5.x or later )
I noticed them too. They must be very close, just above the cantaloupes, but the eye projects them further back over the watermelons, thus making them gargantuan... Interesting example of a classic effect (they used it in the last Harry Potter flick alot)
Those are not canteloupes, Nik, at least not where I come from. They are more like honeydews and have a pale green flesh.
In which case the hanging oranges are half a head!
Do you think you are seeing this image correctly?
No the oranges (or grapefruites, maybe?) are much further!
Unfortunately our good friend Neil wasn't using a nice 3stop ND filter, so this it nearly a hyperfocal shot (f/10..f/16 I presume), hard to tell the distance - which adds to the effect.
"Each file has 10 channels" (Dan Margoulis)
Open your file in PS, bring the Info panel up and watch CMYK section as you hover over the melons. Y (Yellow) will pretty much stay at 100% the whole time. Which is a tell-tell sign of an oversaturation, i.e. you probaly already lost some details (unless you shot RAW and can lower the exposure, at least in that corner of the image, say in ACR5.x or later )
Yes, I know all that!:D
But why shouldn't they be 100% yellow? Do you mean if I shot a 100% yellow color card swatch I shouldn't get 100% yellow in my CMYK?
But why shouldn't they be 100% yellow? Do you mean if I shot a 100% yellow color card swatch I shouldn't get 100% yellow in my CMYK?
You see, that's what I'm saying. You don't know. If they all were 99%, that would mean they are just bright yellow. But they are 100%, it can be because they are 100% - or maybe they are 150%, but a gallon jug can only hold a gallon of liquid, even if you pour a whole Atlantic ocean into it.
Clear as mud?
No the oranges (or grapefruites, maybe?) are much further!
Unfortunately our good friend Neil wasn't using a nice 3stop ND filter, so this it nearly a hyperfocal shot (f/10..f/16 I presume), hard to tell the distance - which adds to the effect.
I don't think your problem is with fruit, but some other substance!!!
Look at the wire the stuff is hanging from, first there are two oranges on a twig with leaves, then one and then another bunch of bananas, then the walkway where the two men are standing.
You see, that's what I'm saying. You don't know. If they all were 99%, that would mean they are just bright yellow. But they are 100%, it can be because they are 100% - or maybe they are 150%, but a gallon jug can only hold a gallon of liquid, even if you pour a whole Atlantic ocean into it.
Clear as mud?
How's it looking, guys? Are you having any other problems? You haven't mentioned the grapes. I'm sure you must be able to find some problem with them? Too many, perhaps?
Nik, can you guess why all the other fruit, near and far, is perfectly natural color?
Arrgh...
Neil, every channel - real (R in RGB) or fictitious (L in LAB) has a saturation point. Once it's reached details are lost. The thing is - it doesn't matter what color space you use, since it's limited in any case.
In your particular scenario it's pretty obvious that Yellow is a dominant color, hence cmYk is a convenient space to use. You gotta know Yellow may get oversaturated in this case, yet from RGB standpoint (LCD/Screen) it's perfectly legal. This one of the tough scenarios when you need to think a bit further than an RGB based histogram and simply underexpose a bit.
How's it looking, guys? Are you having any other problems? You haven't mentioned the grapes. I'm sure you must be able to find some problem with them? Too many, perhaps?
Nik, can you guess why all the other fruit, near and far, is perfectly natural color?
Since you've asked: the wall on the back is totally blown out, and the orange tent is oversaturated, too
As to the rest of the fruit - I can't really say, but they do look natural, albeit a bit bland.
Arrgh...
Neil, every channel - real (R in RGB) or fictitious (L in LAB) has a saturation point. Once it's reached details are lost. The thing is - it doesn't matter what color space you use, since it's limited in any case.
In your particular scenario it's pretty obvious that Yellow is a dominant color, hence cmYk is a convenient space to use. You gotta know Yellow may get oversaturated in this case, yet from RGB standpoint (LCD/Screen) it's perfectly legal. This one of the tough scenarios when you need to think a bit further than an RGB based histogram and simply underexpose a bit.
Nik, you are now blinding me - with this jargon!
It's only jargon, because I cannot see a problem. I can see the shadows on the skins and the lines of the skin pattern and the blemishes. Is your gamma correct? Is your display too bright?
I can see that Y is at 100% over most of this fruit, but Y not? Y is also 100% on the oranges, and if you hold both these fruit in bright light the color is fluorescent.
I am willing to accept that you would prefer less natural color, but that is a different issue to there being a technical color problem.
I can't speak with much authority, I admit. But I am more curious than convinced by what you are saying. Especially when I can hear your and the other guy's (alcoholic?) chuckles.
Since you've asked: the wall on the back is totally blown out, and the orange tent is oversaturated, too
As to the rest of the fruit - I can't really say, but they do look natural, albeit a bit bland.
No, that wall is not blown. It's white. What is blown is the light coming through the gap in the tarp top mid image. You can see the difference between that and the wall.
The fact is, Nik, that a summer afternoon north African sun was shining directly through that plastic orange tarp from a totally clear sky. You better believe that this color is true. It's the same as the emergency orange I think you would know, but lit through. This isn't any wussy suburban patio umbrella way up north.
Further (and I am humoring you, for the moment, dear critic), there is another of those melons just peeking out from behind the buyer's left arm. It doesn't look at all bright or saturated, but the Y reading on that is 97%.
If I am not getting the point please say, because I really do want to understand.
...and more!!! The skin of that fruit in the FG is very smooth and reflective, like watermelon skin in that regard, quite the opposite of a cantaloupe skin, if that was confusing you, Nik etc.
Neil,
while I can assure you that I'm using a good color calbrated monitor, I know better than to trust my old blind eyes when making color-related comments. I used the hard cold numbers. And in my book 100% on any channel over the large area of image which also happens to be its primary foreground subject is called "overexposure" no matter how you look at it.
I already mentioned that you were in a tough conditions. Shooting under harsh midday sun is not easy to say the least....
Neil,
while I can assure you that I'm using a good color calbrated monitor, I know better than to trust my old blind eyes when making color-related comments. I used the hard cold numbers. And in my book 100% on any channel over the large area of image which also happens to be its primary foreground subject is called "overexposure" no matter how you look at it.
I already mentioned that you were in a tough conditions. Shooting under harsh midday sun is not easy to say the least....
It seems as if you are assuming that nothing in nature can be pure yellow. I wonder...
No. I am not. But I get suspiciuos w hen I see large areas of 100% saturation...
Rightly so. I am on the road and don´t have PS on the POS machine I am using, so I can´t play the numbers game. I see some small areas of the melons that look blown out altogether and some bits that may be clipped, but they are not large areas. Remember that CYMK is subtractive, so you need to look at the other channels as well to get the whole story.
Rightly so. I am on the road and don´t have PS on the POS machine I am using, so I can´t play the numbers game. I see some small areas of the melons that look blown out altogether and some bits that may be clipped, but they are not large areas. Remember that CYMK is subtractive, so you need to look at the other channels as well to get the whole story.
I'm aware of that. :-) And while you're not by your mahcine, here's how Y channel looks like, while both C & M are nearly white in this area.
Once again, shooting african market scene midday is a tough call.
I do find the saturated colors a bit jarring from a personal-aesthetics perspective, but believe they reflect the reality of the scene. I'm having some trouble understanding why you (Nik) think that canary melons shouldn't be 100% yellow. They're not honeydews or cantaloupes; see the shape. In the real world, they are in fact a very vivid yellow -- more saturated than lemons or bananas.
I love what is going on in the background, I think that's where the pictures were or at least in that vicinity. The foreground is a little boring, I want to run to the back.
I'm aware of that. :-) And while you're not by your mahcine, here's how Y channel looks like, while both C & M are nearly white in this area.
Once again, shooting african market scene midday is a tough call.
Nik, this is very interesting. It's the first time I have seen the Y channel like this. How do you get it? I can get a yellow channel which is the negative of what you show here, and yes there is no detail in those melons there.
However, in the "real" image at 100% I can see perfectly natural detail. I even count about a dozen little fruit flies on those melons, which are just obliterated in the yellow channel.
In my processing I blended in the blue channel, among other things, which has most of the finer contrasts just for the reason to restore those details. Sure the yellow chanel is pretty ghastly, but I wonder if it alone is the whole story.
As I said already, that fruit is bright, and those bright colors are one of the ideas in this image, they were and are really meant to be explosive events in this dusty gray alley.
The other ideas, of course, which gain a little life from those color explosions, are the buying fruit transaction, and the tag game in the background in blues.
I don't want to rationalise my way out of a possibly bad image, and I certainly take your points seriously. I am trying to rethink the image and what might be preferable.
Thank you for your kindness in going to so much trouble to be of help.D
I do find the saturated colors a bit jarring from a personal-aesthetics perspective, but believe they reflect the reality of the scene. I'm having some trouble understanding why you (Nik) think that canary melons shouldn't be 100% yellow. They're not honeydews or cantaloupes; see the shape. In the real world, they are in fact a very vivid yellow -- more saturated than lemons or bananas.
Ah! canary melons! Beautifully named, just so! Thanks for the clarification and your comments!
Rightly so. I am on the road and don´t have PS on the POS machine I am using, so I can´t play the numbers game. I see some small areas of the melons that look blown out altogether and some bits that may be clipped, but they are not large areas. Remember that CYMK is subtractive, so you need to look at the other channels as well to get the whole story.
Comments
Neil! Dude! Your Y channel is at 100% plain and simple.
It's your primary subject, yet there are no details whatsowever
:jawdrop
Jeff
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Nik, speaka my language, please, I'm no LABer?!:D
Y channel? Are you referring to my briefs?
No detail? There was when I last went to the loo, thank g*d!!
Do you mean the melons are bright? Too right they are, and I can see every blemish (except where the sun is reflected).
Say more, please, in plain English...
And thanks!
Neil
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
In which case the hanging oranges are half a head!
Do you think you are seeing this image correctly?
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
"Each file has 10 channels" (Dan Margoulis)
Open your file in PS, bring the Info panel up and watch CMYK section as you hover over the melons. Y (Yellow) will pretty much stay at 100% the whole time. Which is a tell-tell sign of an oversaturation, i.e. you probaly already lost some details (unless you shot RAW and can lower the exposure, at least in that corner of the image, say in ACR5.x or later )
Those are not canteloupes, Nik, at least not where I come from. They are more like honeydews and have a pale green flesh.
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
Unfortunately our good friend Neil wasn't using a nice 3stop ND filter, so this it nearly a hyperfocal shot (f/10..f/16 I presume), hard to tell the distance - which adds to the effect.
Yes, I know all that!:D
But why shouldn't they be 100% yellow? Do you mean if I shot a 100% yellow color card swatch I shouldn't get 100% yellow in my CMYK?
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
Clear as mud?
I don't think your problem is with fruit, but some other substance!!!
Look at the wire the stuff is hanging from, first there are two oranges on a twig with leaves, then one and then another bunch of bananas, then the walkway where the two men are standing.
Aperture was 5.6.
Please look again when you have recovered.
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
Exactly mud! Of which you are slinging ample.
I think the jug, Nik, must be empty!
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
Nik, can you guess why all the other fruit, near and far, is perfectly natural color?
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
Neil, every channel - real (R in RGB) or fictitious (L in LAB) has a saturation point. Once it's reached details are lost. The thing is - it doesn't matter what color space you use, since it's limited in any case.
In your particular scenario it's pretty obvious that Yellow is a dominant color, hence cmYk is a convenient space to use. You gotta know Yellow may get oversaturated in this case, yet from RGB standpoint (LCD/Screen) it's perfectly legal. This one of the tough scenarios when you need to think a bit further than an RGB based histogram and simply underexpose a bit.
As to the rest of the fruit - I can't really say, but they do look natural, albeit a bit bland.
Nik, you are now blinding me - with this jargon!
It's only jargon, because I cannot see a problem. I can see the shadows on the skins and the lines of the skin pattern and the blemishes. Is your gamma correct? Is your display too bright?
I can see that Y is at 100% over most of this fruit, but Y not? Y is also 100% on the oranges, and if you hold both these fruit in bright light the color is fluorescent.
I am willing to accept that you would prefer less natural color, but that is a different issue to there being a technical color problem.
I can't speak with much authority, I admit. But I am more curious than convinced by what you are saying. Especially when I can hear your and the other guy's (alcoholic?) chuckles.
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
No, that wall is not blown. It's white. What is blown is the light coming through the gap in the tarp top mid image. You can see the difference between that and the wall.
The fact is, Nik, that a summer afternoon north African sun was shining directly through that plastic orange tarp from a totally clear sky. You better believe that this color is true. It's the same as the emergency orange I think you would know, but lit through. This isn't any wussy suburban patio umbrella way up north.
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
If I am not getting the point please say, because I really do want to understand.
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
while I can assure you that I'm using a good color calbrated monitor, I know better than to trust my old blind eyes when making color-related comments. I used the hard cold numbers. And in my book 100% on any channel over the large area of image which also happens to be its primary foreground subject is called "overexposure" no matter how you look at it.
I already mentioned that you were in a tough conditions. Shooting under harsh midday sun is not easy to say the least....
It seems as if you are assuming that nothing in nature can be pure yellow. I wonder...
Rightly so. I am on the road and don´t have PS on the POS machine I am using, so I can´t play the numbers game. I see some small areas of the melons that look blown out altogether and some bits that may be clipped, but they are not large areas. Remember that CYMK is subtractive, so you need to look at the other channels as well to get the whole story.
Once again, shooting african market scene midday is a tough call.
Nik, this is very interesting. It's the first time I have seen the Y channel like this. How do you get it? I can get a yellow channel which is the negative of what you show here, and yes there is no detail in those melons there.
However, in the "real" image at 100% I can see perfectly natural detail. I even count about a dozen little fruit flies on those melons, which are just obliterated in the yellow channel.
In my processing I blended in the blue channel, among other things, which has most of the finer contrasts just for the reason to restore those details. Sure the yellow chanel is pretty ghastly, but I wonder if it alone is the whole story.
As I said already, that fruit is bright, and those bright colors are one of the ideas in this image, they were and are really meant to be explosive events in this dusty gray alley.
The other ideas, of course, which gain a little life from those color explosions, are the buying fruit transaction, and the tag game in the background in blues.
I don't want to rationalise my way out of a possibly bad image, and I certainly take your points seriously. I am trying to rethink the image and what might be preferable.
Thank you for your kindness in going to so much trouble to be of help.
Neil
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
Ah! canary melons! Beautifully named, just so! Thanks for the clarification and your comments!
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
A good assessment, R!
http://www.behance.net/brosepix