What I Learned from Joe McNally
A few weeks ago, I had the great pleasure of taking a one-week workshop with Joe McNally. It was an incredible experience, and I wrote a bit about it on my blog.
What can you learn in a week rubbing shoulders with Joe, his assistant Drew Gurian, and Syl Arena? A whole heckuva lot. :huh
This was an amazing experience that helped me really get a grasp on balancing ambient light with flash—or multiple flashes. To Joe's credit, I did try to shoot TTL the first day (I'm a full manual type of gal where camera and flashes are concerned), but after struggling for a while, Drew stopped by to assess what I was doing and suggested I switch to manual for what I was trying to accomplish that day. And I didn't go back. Shooting full manual just makes more sense to me for some reason. Plus I'm never quite happy with what the camera and flashes come up with when they do some of the thinking for me. :dunno
The most surprising thing for me was managing to get publishable photos straight out of the camera. I am addicted to processing, but as I downloaded photos each day, I was floored at how very little I needed to do to them to meet my standards. Goes to show that getting it right in camera goes really far.
...but I still couldn't resist putting my own processing spin on these.
(Oh, except for 1, 3, and 7. Those are SOOC. :clap)
1. First day: After an okay morning, I decided to try the impossible (for me) in the afternoon—shoot straight into the sun using my subjects as a gobo. I was amazed how much light I needed to overpower the sun. There are three speedlights at full power through a scrim camera right.
2. Syl found us some incredible locations to shoot at. The next three images are all from the same location. Here, there is a tri-grip camera left diffusing the sunlight coming through the truck's windshield and a flash around 1/4 power through an umbrella camera right.
3. One speedlight with a HONL grid held vertically. The stripe across his stomach is sunlight streaming through the roof beams.
4. One speedlight camera left at about 1/2 power for the full body, two speedlights at full power camera right behind the subject through an umbrella for the background, and one HONL-gridded speedlight behind the subject for a hairlight.
5. Subject flagged by a tri-grip high camera right. Speedlight through a softbox camera left. And gridded speedlight clipped to a grapevine low camera right.
6. One speedlight through a softbox high above camera center and two speedlights tucked between barrels behind the subject.
The full gallery is here.
The biggest lesson I learned is that Canon flashes suck! I'm very lucky to have bought into the Nikon flash system. :huh (Sorry, April. Here's a little somethin' to make up for it...)
Really, though, I learned that Joe is an incredible teacher and a great guy. And the logical way to light any scene is to expose for ambient first and add lights one at a time. It really does work!
Thanks for stopping by! :thumb
What can you learn in a week rubbing shoulders with Joe, his assistant Drew Gurian, and Syl Arena? A whole heckuva lot. :huh
This was an amazing experience that helped me really get a grasp on balancing ambient light with flash—or multiple flashes. To Joe's credit, I did try to shoot TTL the first day (I'm a full manual type of gal where camera and flashes are concerned), but after struggling for a while, Drew stopped by to assess what I was doing and suggested I switch to manual for what I was trying to accomplish that day. And I didn't go back. Shooting full manual just makes more sense to me for some reason. Plus I'm never quite happy with what the camera and flashes come up with when they do some of the thinking for me. :dunno
The most surprising thing for me was managing to get publishable photos straight out of the camera. I am addicted to processing, but as I downloaded photos each day, I was floored at how very little I needed to do to them to meet my standards. Goes to show that getting it right in camera goes really far.
...but I still couldn't resist putting my own processing spin on these.
(Oh, except for 1, 3, and 7. Those are SOOC. :clap)1. First day: After an okay morning, I decided to try the impossible (for me) in the afternoon—shoot straight into the sun using my subjects as a gobo. I was amazed how much light I needed to overpower the sun. There are three speedlights at full power through a scrim camera right.
2. Syl found us some incredible locations to shoot at. The next three images are all from the same location. Here, there is a tri-grip camera left diffusing the sunlight coming through the truck's windshield and a flash around 1/4 power through an umbrella camera right.
3. One speedlight with a HONL grid held vertically. The stripe across his stomach is sunlight streaming through the roof beams.
4. One speedlight camera left at about 1/2 power for the full body, two speedlights at full power camera right behind the subject through an umbrella for the background, and one HONL-gridded speedlight behind the subject for a hairlight.
5. Subject flagged by a tri-grip high camera right. Speedlight through a softbox camera left. And gridded speedlight clipped to a grapevine low camera right.
6. One speedlight through a softbox high above camera center and two speedlights tucked between barrels behind the subject.
The full gallery is here.
The biggest lesson I learned is that Canon flashes suck! I'm very lucky to have bought into the Nikon flash system. :huh (Sorry, April. Here's a little somethin' to make up for it...)
Really, though, I learned that Joe is an incredible teacher and a great guy. And the logical way to light any scene is to expose for ambient first and add lights one at a time. It really does work!
Thanks for stopping by! :thumb
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Houston Portrait Photographer
Children's Illustrator
Awesome set.
Comments and constructive critique always welcome!
Elaine Heasley Photography
Thanks for sharing the setup you did here. Sounds like it was a week really well spent. As someone financially vested in Canon, I was curious about your comment on the Canon system. I've never owned Nikon so I have no other frame of reference. I know that until the 580ex2 canon didn't have the PC jack for remotes.
Thanks,
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I do agree, speedlights work much better in the N-world!
Luckily, Canon is beginning to recognize this (at least with 7D) and maybe soon April will be able to do the same :-)
Incredible photos!! Especially love the first one.
A little detail from you and Kerry on why this is would be very much appreciated!
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2 is my favorite. Phenomenal scene, mood, processing - everything.
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Houston Portrait Photographer
Children's Illustrator
I usually have no stake in this debate. It's all good gear, especially when you know how to use it. I myself shoot prosumer Nikon but point-and-shoot Canon. I never realized the differences in the flash systems until I was paired up with a Canon shooter one day at the workshop. I grew frustrated for her because the Canon flash system was so buggy.
Specifically, Nikon really knocked things out of the park with the built-in wireless system. The master-slave capability is so much easier with Nikon, and it's magic if you have a body that allows your pop-up flash to act as a wireless trigger, even for TTL (like my D700).
The speedlights I have are an SB800 and an SB600. I have placed my SB800 at the top of a flight of stairs, out of line of sight, and triggered it with my pop-up flash. And the SB800 wasn't in an optical slave mode. It was in full manual. I can stick either speedlight behind me and trigger successfully with the onboard flash. In full sunlight.
I very quickly learned that these things were nigh on impossible with Canon. The interference between an onboard Canon flash and an off-camera speedlight was crazy bad. And so much worse in full sunlight. You had to align the on-camera flash head just right to ensure the off-camera flash would read the master signal. If you were off even a quarter of an inch, your off-camera flash would not fire. It got to the point my poor Canon counterpart couldn't get her flashes to fire at all until I told her to keep the camera glued to her eye and I reached over to tweak the flash head on her camera until the off-camera flash caught the signal. Lots of trial and error. Mostly error. I couldn't believe the differences.
There's so much I had taken for granted with my Nikon speedlights that I am way more appreciative of now. In the same situation as above, my Nikon speedlights fired every time (shot #5). It was also easy to "bounce" the Nikon master trigger signal off my hand by placing it near the master flash head and gain even greater distance between my on-camera and off-camera flashes.
The final realization occurred on our last day while Joe was doing a demonstration. It was an overcast morning, and he set up a bunch of speedlights to shoot through a scrim and used an onboard speedlight to trigger them wirelessly. At one point, he stepped in front of the scrimmed flashes to take a shot—something the Nikon shooters in the group didn't thnk twice about—and took a picture, successfully firing all the flashes behind him. The Canon shooters verbally expressed their disbelief. In the same situation, it proved much, much more difficult for them to accomplish the same feat.
...does that help at all?
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Thanks for sharing!!
Bodies: Nikon D300 & D70
Lens: Sigma 28-70/2.8, Nikon 18-70, 50mm/1.4, 70-200
Lights: SB-600, Alien Bees 400 & 800
Yes, I've heard and read about this from many pros as well. There's even one blog that I recently read where the blogger listed all the possible ways Canon can improve its flash system. I've run into several issues when trying to do OCF with my STE2 myself.
Houston Portrait Photographer
Children's Illustrator
As a canon shooter / speedlight addict... I would love to see the nikon flash in action as you describe. I live in the world of checking to see if the darn thing fired. This is the very first thing I have ever read that made sense to me about the superiority of the Nikon system..................But it is a long road to switch.
Comments and constructive critique always welcome!
Elaine Heasley Photography
Thanks for the clarification.
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Elaine, I'm afraid I've reached the extent of my Canon flash knowledge with my explanation. :uhoh I know of the STE2 and 580EX, but I have no idea which of these were being used or when. April (aktse) may know as she shoots Canon and attended the workshop with me. She's a bit swamped right now, but I'll see if she can find a moment to weigh in here for you.
How was Syl as a teacher? I had a day with McNally in NYC and Syl was there - I had mixed views of his style, but after thinking about the day, I realized I learned quite a bit.
I am tempted to go out to Paso and take a lesson with him, but am trying to balance style with knowledge.
(Great shots, BTW - but of course you know this!)
Z
You can do similar things (or most of them, at least) with Canon ones, but with more efforts and maybe less elegance. However it looks like things are changing for better: 7D is the first Canon camera that can control EX flashes directly (I tried it, it works nicely). And of course, you can use ST-E2...
Having said that, I myself mostly use bigger (studio) lights. While being more expensive and heavier/bulkier, control problems do not exist in this world.
I'm not saying any approach is better or worse, you typically can achieve similar or identical results with either system, as long as you know what you're doing. It's simply a matter of convenience and effectiveness. You can cut both a loaf of bread and a 50ft tree with a penknife, a chef knife, a box cutter or with a chainsaw. Depending on the task, different tools could be "better suited", but if you're set to do it, you'll do it regardless...
(And yes, I did cut a 50ft tree with a pen knife once - I simply had no other choice
Mind over matter
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I didn't interact in the field with Syl much since I shoot Nikon and he was heavily helping out the Canon side of the house, but he is a quiet, intelligent, well-spoken teacher. I began to panic a little at the end of my time one day in the field, and Syl came over to help. His presence and calm approach in turn calmed me down and got me to achieve my goal. Extremely kind and helpful, and offering good feedback and encouragement in the "classroom." I really liked him. How can you not like someone who comes up the Sylinator?
If you have a chance to take a PRW workshop, do it. Seriously. Amazing, amazing experience and location. Syl and his wife really put together a fantastic week for us.
My background -- I'm a canon sports shooter who set a goal to learn about flash this year and I'm doing it kicking and screaming all the way. I still don’t like flash, but I can say that I don’t hate it anymore and that’s a big difference; I have to thank Joe and Syl for that!
* I flew across the country to attend Joe McNally's Dobb Ferry's one day workshops in July (waves to Zanotti – it was wonderful to meet you there). You get demo's and a small amount hands on time; you leave wanting more time behind the camera. I always heard issues about canon and their speedlights and this was the first time that I experienced it. I must say -- thank god for Syl Arnea -- he translated Nikon lingo into Canon-ese for me. It was the first time that I’ve ever learned to work through a flashed photo.
* I tend attended McNally's one day lighting seminar in SF. He just held one in DC, and will be holding one in NYC and one in LA in the near future. It's under $100, sells out (800+ people), you don't get any hands on times, can't really ask questions, but I still think it’s still worth it the money and time. You witness how a lighting master crafts an image using light (small and big).
In the full week’s workshop, you experience how to create an image and leave with the confidence that you can do so in the future. The hands-on time and critiques were priceless. It’s one thing reading about the concepts in books, on the web, etc, but it’s much difference when you put it in action. The idea is simple and is not a secret – exposure of the ambient, and then add one light.
The blogger is Syl Arena of the Paso Robles Workshops and this is his canon speedlight wishlist that resulted from helping out at the Dobbs Ferry workshops. Joe asked him to be there to help the struggling canon folks…. And I wouldn’t have survived Dobbs Ferry without him.
Light is light, whether it’s the sun, speed lights, or studio strobes no matter what system you use. The difference is in the details – how much light outputted, how you trigger it, how it can be controlled, how the output can be changed, etc.
If you’re using PWs (either versions), it matters since only the 580EXII has the correct connector, or you can mod the other versions of the flashes by adding a port. If you are using the STE2, another flash as master, or a long cable, it doesn’t matter unless you need the extra light output provided by the 580EXII. None of the flashes have an optical trigger, etc.
Nikon just has a better system since it’s easier to control, easier to trigger, easier to adjust, easier to add different lights. Can you get the same photo taken with a Nikon flashes with the Canon system – yes. It just sometimes harder and takes more effort or equipment. Even before the workshop ended, I ordered a 25’ flash cable. I think I’m almost to the point where I’ve given up on wireless canon TTL and will use my PWs for wireless flash.
PW is giving away the shields for a short period of time for the flex system and will include them with the canon PWs in the near future.
The new radio poppers also have a iTTL solution (the high end version and not the Jrs). We were suppose to try them, but ran out of time.
Syl is Syl – he was just like Dobbs Ferry. He found me in panic (full panic) twice, and he calmed me down. He won’t tell you the answers, but will ask questions – what are you trying to achieve, what problems are you having, who solutions work for this situation, etc., and together, you’ll find a solution that works. We worked in teams in of three students, and Joe, Drew and Syl would walk around checking up on people. In general, we were left alone to make mistakes… and we all made mistakes. The key was how we learned to work through the problems to get the shot in the end.
And Kerry – I’m glad the stars aligned, and we were able to attend the PSW workshops. I really can’t wait to see where your imagination takes you after McNally… think big. And thank you for the eye candy… much appreciated!
I am planning on posting my experience, thoughts, epiphanies and what I’m learning in my flash journey but haven't had the chance to do so... One day.
And yes, Canon flashes suck.
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For canon folks…
Syl is working on a flash book to help us. It will be a pre-order for me.
Once that issue is resolved, it doesn't sound like there are many (any?) substantial differences, right?
Who is wise? He who learns from everyone.
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14-24 24-70 70-200mm (vr2)
85 and 50 1.4
45 PC and sb910 x2
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I haven't done my research yet on the the RPs or the PWs, but can you can quickly easily set four different groups with various channels?
e.g. channel 1 group A at +1 FEC, channel 1 group B at -3 FEC, channel 1 group C at +2 FED, or various manual modes if you like? And if the light changes, and then you realize you need to move up a stop on one channel, can you do it without running some place to change the settings?
With Nikon -- changes were fly and very, very quick. The 5dMkII has some flash control, but it's deep within menu system and I believe the 7D is better.
The STE2 allows two groups, but canon uses the ratio system. I never went beyond two lights without moving to the PWs and things are much slower once you're on the PWs (never fussed with ttl on them).
Light is light, but the Nikon speedlights are easier to use, change, and are more reliable without any additional equipment.
22 story building. 16 studio lights, all with individual 1200..2400 wt/sec powerpacks and radio triggers.
No speedlights. No frigging etttl. Manual adjustments.
When a task calls for bigger guns, you just use bigger guns.
Other than that - a light is a light is a light. You just need a way to apply a right amount of it in a desired place at a pertinent moment. How you do it - it's a different story.
Alas, too vested in the Canon system of lenses to let this be an issue. I'll just learn and innovate within the constraints. Still a ways to go before I'd be using a 4th zone.
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I only invested in Radiopoppers so I could throw my Alien Bee 400 into the mix wirelessly. I'm way more impressed with the Nikon system's inherent wireless capability now than I was before this workshop, that's for sure.
While I love Nikon's CLS system and I do think that it is undoubtedly better than the current canon system for the reasons stated in this thread, I do want to point out that the AWL (advanced wireless lighting) system isn't magic--there are times when the flash doesn't fire and it can be frustrating. Now, most of the time it does fire, and even in situations where you thought it wouldn't. Any time you shoot indoors in an average room with white walls, etc, the signal bounces all over the room and you don't really need direct line of sight. Even outdoors, often the signal will bounce off your subject and make it's way back to the flash and fire it. Positioning the sensor window correctly is key to having the best success with it.
However, there are those times when I've had to make compromises with my lighting because I just couldn't do what I wanted with the CLS system. For instance, placing a light around a corner or at an angle where it's hard to get the sensor pointed towards the signal, or trying to shoot with the light behind you, can prove impossible, especially if you're using the popup and you're outdoors or in a very large room without a lot of bouncing surfaces for the signal. So, if there's any chance you'll end up in any of those situations it's good to have a set of radio triggers as a backup. That way you can use the CLS for the convenience of controlling the light from the camera, but as soon as you run into any problems you can switch over to the radio triggers without having to totally re-think your lighting setup.
Of course, with radiopoppers you'd get the best of both worlds, full TTL if you wanted it, control of power from the camera, AND the total reliability of radio signal.
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