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Help re making the move from PC to Apple

RovingEyePhotoRovingEyePhoto Registered Users Posts: 314 Major grins
edited June 21, 2010 in Digital Darkroom
I'm a bit ahead of my personal curve here, but no time like present for PC-Mac transition that's grabbed hold of my thinking. Have about 6 months to make decision, that's when present 4 yr warranty expires on my Dell XPS-400, upgraded RAM and graphics card, fine machine. Principal use beyond Word and Excel is Photoshop (see my upload sites at signature below), so expect Dgrinners will loom big in helping me sort this thing out.

I've been a happy user of Dell PC's for 15 years or so, but finally got hit by a virus attack a month ago, and notwithstanding the many hours of excellent screen-sharing warranted service by Dell software techs, I'm ready to surrender to the far less attacked Apple. Know I'll be paying more for less power, but think I'm over that hump, don't ever want to go through the virus experience again. I know there are crazies out there targeting Apple as well as PC, but vastly less in number, and Apple experience in this dept apparently is very good.

Many considerations already are tackled, not least of which are a beautiful 27" diag screen and wife's passion for not having a big 'ol tower standing around. So looks like I'm talking a 27" iMac. Not many options, but would like Dgrinner input on a few of them. First, processors offered are Intel i5 266ghz and i7 286ghz, only $200 upgrade for the i7, but research seems to say i5 is good buy for very little performance sacrifice in the processing I'll typically be doing. Thoughts on that?

Second, I'm thinking 8G of Ram, only a $200 upgrade for 2G cards filling all 4 slots (two 4G cards in two slots would provide for future expansion, but $400 more upgrade, and can't imagine even needing anywhere near even the 8G, that's a truckload of RAM). Thoughts on that?

Third, the only graphics card offered with the i5 or i7 is the ATI Radeon HD 4850 512MB. I figure this has something to do with only a 375W power supply and heat considerations of the all-in-one design, but you can tell me. Thoughts on the card ?

Fourth, I'm told by Apple that only one in over a thousand buy the iMac with an anti-virus program (apparently Norton makes a Mac version), but considering my experience, I'd be loath to be without it. Imagine it slows things down, etc, and Apple apparently does a good job on security updates, but think I'll be kind of psycho without it. Any thoughts?

I'm not really looking to change from Photoshop, won't cost much more than than Aperture to get Mac basic version, and I'm reasonably well experienced with the particular PS workflow I follow. Aperture seems to cover the same things I use, but maybe I'm missing something. Wouldn't mind going to Aperture so all-Apple, they'd be there to support me, but again, I'm used to PS, see no reason to change other than any compatibility problem, and not having Apple there to support me. I will be running MS Office rather than iWorks, do lots of Excel work, silly to even consider changing horses on that. Any thoughts on Aperture?

My present Dell Ultrasharp is a mat screen, the iMac a glossy. I process with shades closed and the only light being a color corrected (according to Eye-One monitor calibrator ambient light reading) compact fluorescent bulb mounted in a work shade pointed 45 degrees to a white ceiling. Any thoughts on processing on the glossy screen in this type environment?

That's about it for now. I realize that iMac's configuration could well change between now and the time I'm ready to act, but anything other Dgrinners can provide certainly will get me educated to the nuances. BTW, I realize the machine I've described is a bit of a screamer, but I don't drive a Lambo or own a a 20,000 sq ft home, my computer's my boy toy, I'll keep it four years or so, overbuying's all part of the deal.

Thanks in advance ...
See my work at http://www.flickr.com/photos/26525400@N04/sets/. Policy is to initially upload 10-20 images from each shoot, then a few from various of the in-process shoots each time I log on, until a shoot is completely uploaded.
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    bloomphotogbloomphotog Registered Users Posts: 582 Major grins
    edited January 1, 2010
    ***Warning: Apple fan boy alert!***

    A. You won't be paying more for less! deal.gif Apple is the standard of the visual arts industry. Every full-time pro I know uses one, seriously. Comparing on paper specs is foolish - look at the productivity benchmarks and you'll see why. Megabyhertzaflops don't matter if you are still stuck with a crappy OS from some Washington based mega-corp.

    B. The 27" iMac is the best choice for you. I would also spring for the i7, as it offers a good performance jump for the money. 8GB would be a great start. Go to 16GB in 2 years.

    C. Virus protection on a Mac is nothing more than bloatware. Totally unnecessary.

    D. iWork is awesome. MS Office for Mac sucks.

    E. Aperture is great. I personally prefer Lightroom, but I would suggest downloading trials of both. Use them for a month and see which app is producing better looking work for you. Lightroom does integrate with Photoshop a little better.
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    insanefredinsanefred Registered Users Posts: 604 Major grins
    edited January 2, 2010
    You got hit by one virus and already given up? Almost all viruses are actually Trojans, the user needs to invite them in order for it to attack. deal.gif

    Haven't you ever heard how bad Dell support is? ne_nau.gif

    Mac or PC, you should ALWAYS back up your stuff! rolleyes1.gif

    I would never buy a Mac screen, I can't do glossy. I'd just throw it away and replace it with a Eizo in a heartbeat. So are the stock mice, ewwww...

    Macs, get viruses/trojans and other mal-ware too, also the last time I checked. They are much easier to hi-jack remotely.


    Apple tends to have some serious compatibility issues, depending what programs that you intend to use.

    I am not against macs, but I rather see people be better educated and decide for themselves and not just "Follow the Herd".

    Also, why not just build your own system?
    ***Warning: Apple fan boy alert!***

    A. You won't be paying more for less! Apple is the standard of the visual arts industry. Every full-time pro I know uses one, seriously. Comparing on paper specs is foolish - look at the productivity benchmarks and you'll see why. Megabyhertzaflops don't matter if you are still stuck with a crappy OS from some Washington based mega-corp.

    B. The 27" iMac is the best choice for you. I would also spring for the i7, as it offers a good performance jump for the money. 8GB would be a great start. Go to 16GB in 2 years.

    C. Virus protection on a Mac is nothing more than bloatware. Totally unnecessary.

    D. iWork is awesome. MS Office for Mac sucks.

    E. Aperture is great. I personally prefer Lightroom, but I would suggest downloading trials of both. Use them for a month and see which app is producing better looking work for you. Lightroom does integrate with Photoshop a little better.

    A: Apple isn't a "standard" for anything. It is used in art/graphics/media industries, yes, but so are PCs.

    B: unfortunately most programs don't use anywhere close to 8GB of RAM.

    C: I agree with you here, it also is bloatware for PCs

    D: Openoffice, free and open source, look it up ;)
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    Neil HargreavesNeil Hargreaves Registered Users Posts: 1 Beginner grinner
    edited January 2, 2010
    I must declare my obsession with all things mac, and the i7 mac is top of my shopping list for this year.

    After initially being unable to source any here in Australia, the supply chain has now been restored. Fortunately, the delay enabled others to experience some problems with screen flickering on the 27" machine.

    From what I read on mac forums, a fix is now in place and the problem shouldn't affect current stock.

    I'm going to load mine up with 8GB at first, hopefully this will help with the speed of Aperture?

    Good luck with your purchase. I look forward to hearing your thoughts......
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    RichardRichard Administrators, Vanilla Admin Posts: 19,937 moderator
    edited January 2, 2010
    It looks like you have done your homework and have identified the issues well. Here are a few thoughts:

    1) Processor: I suppose it really depends on how much horsepower you are likely to need over the next four years. Some people barely touch the limits of slower processors in Photoshop, if they are only doing simple adjustments. It is also a matter of temperament--if it really drives you up the wall to wait a few seconds every now and then, then you should go for the faster processor. You can never have too many cycles. On the other hand, the best value is never found at the very top end of computer components. Your call.

    2) Memory: Wait until you need it. The Mac version of CS4 is 32 bit only, so it cannot address more than 4GB. 64 bit support is promised for CS5 on the Mac and LR has it today. Again, it rather depends on what you are doing. You might never really need more than 4 GB. In any event, memory only gets cheaper over time, so what's the rush? Keep an eye on the PS efficiency readout--if it's staying at 100% all of the time, extra memory won't help you at all.

    3) Graphics card: Well, you have no choice, do you? That's the downside of an iMac--limited expansion and upgrade options. Take it or leave it. My guess is that if you're not into gaming or video editing, the Radeon card will be just fine for photo editing.

    4) Antivirus: I would never put Norton on a PC and I can't imagine the Mac version is any better--probably worse, since their main experience as developers is on Windows, not OS-X. I wouldn't bother with anti-virus on a Mac (yet). But you do need to be careful. Adobe Flash and Shockwave are the current favorite attack vectors of the sophisticated bad guys, and Macs are just as vulnerable as PCs. Prudence is the key. Remember that Macs are safer partly because they are targeted less often, not because they're made of unobtainium.

    5) Glossy screen: I hate them. Others don't. What can I say? If you calibrate it properly, it shouldn't really matter much.

    HTH.

    Full disclosure: I am a computer curmudgeon: both Microsoft and Apple irritate me.

    Edit: One last point to think about is your migration scheme. If you are using external drives for backup (and you should), there can be some logistical issues. Remember that OS-X can read but cannot write to NTFS formatted drives. There are third-party drivers available that claim to solve this issue. Think about what you have now and what you will need to do to end up safely on the Mac.

    Good luck.
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    colourboxcolourbox Registered Users Posts: 2,095 Major grins
    edited January 2, 2010
    insanefred wrote:
    I would never buy a Mac screen, I can't do glossy. I'd just throw it away and replace it with a Eizo in a heartbeat. So are the stock mice, ewwww...

    With the iMacs you can at least hook up a second monitor of your liking, use it as the primary, and the built-in glossy as the secondary. For those who can deal with the glossy, the current iMacs have nice IPS monitors.
    Apple mice have always been terrible...yes. But I always use a Wacom tablet anyway.
    insanefred wrote:
    Macs, get viruses/trojans and other mal-ware too, also the last time I checked. They are much easier to hi-jack remotely.

    Based on the standard definition of a virus, there are nearly none out there for Macs, most that have been written about in the press are only proof of concept demonstrations, there are apparently none spreading in the wild. If there is one, name it... Trojans, similar story, show a list and we'll see.
    Macs are just as susceptible to phishing and social engineering attacks, though, since those are not technology based.
    I'd like to see the proof of the hijacking claim, especially with the firewall on and all forms of sharing and remote login off. (That does not prevent normal network usage.)
    insanefred wrote:
    A: Apple isn't a "standard" for anything. It is used in art/graphics/media industries, yes, but so are PCs.

    True. Though the percentage of Macs in media is far higher than in the office cubicle world, and in many creative environments, is the majority.
    insanefred wrote:
    B: unfortunately most programs don't use anywhere close to 8GB of RAM.

    Photoshop is an important program here, and it can use 8GB if you open a large file and add layers and effects. I have also seen Lightroom do it when building large previews for hundreds of photos just imported. Also, if you run multiple programs at once (Photoshop, LR/Aperture/Bridge, web browser, mail, music, etc) you can fill up 8GB.
    insanefred wrote:
    D: Openoffice, free and open source, look it up ;)

    In addition to Mac OpenOffice there is NeoOffice which is the same thing but doesn't require the X11 environment so it's easier for people like my mom.
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    jonboy61jonboy61 Registered Users Posts: 28 Big grins
    edited January 2, 2010
    I am forced to use a PC at work; at home we have three Macs. Don't buy RAM from Apple. Installing memory yourself is dead simple and a lot cheaper.
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    colourboxcolourbox Registered Users Posts: 2,095 Major grins
    edited January 2, 2010
    jonboy61 wrote:
    I am forced to use a PC at work; at home we have three Macs. Don't buy RAM from Apple. Installing memory yourself is dead simple and a lot cheaper.

    That's been true in the past, but look carefully because on some models Apple's RAM prices are no longer outrageous. I've been helping friends shop for Macs in the past month and I was surprised to find that on models like the MacBook Pro 13", if you upgrade from 2GB to 4GB through the Apple Store it will cost you $100 more through Apple, $114 through Crucial, and $110 through macsales.com (my favorite upgrade vendor). I think it was the same story with the Mac mini.

    Where Apple still screws you is on the high-end upgrades. To take that 13" MacBook Pro to 8GB costs $466 at macsales.com and $700 at Apple.
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    bloomphotogbloomphotog Registered Users Posts: 582 Major grins
    edited January 3, 2010
    jonboy61 wrote:
    Don't buy RAM from Apple. Installing memory yourself is dead simple and a lot cheaper.

    I agree. Newegg has some great prices on a 4GB kit for the iMac. Would only cost $100 to take the 27" iMac to 8GB. FYI, even from Newegg the cost to go to 16GB is over $1000. eek7.gif Amazing how expensive the latest technology is.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820226019
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    MadisonPhotographyMadisonPhotography Registered Users Posts: 56 Big grins
    edited January 3, 2010
    made the move
    over 4 years ago..from PC to Mac..it has been a pure delight...now using a 27" i7 and can't imagine using a windows based machine..
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    aquaticvideographeraquaticvideographer Registered Users Posts: 278 Major grins
    edited January 6, 2010
    I've had Macs for about 7 years now, and have been really happy with them. I currently have a mid-2008 MacBook Pro, and it's been reliable, sturdy, fast, and fun. For what I do-photo and video editing and DAM-it's perfect.

    Regarding office programs, have you tried Google Docs? I use it almost exclusively now and it works great for my (admittedly limited) word processing and spreadsheet needs.

    My words of advice for new Mac owners are:

    Backup
    Invest in a decent quality external HD for use with Time Machine-it's one of the best user-facing features of OS X. It doesn't have to be a screamer or FW800 or anything like that, just a plain old USB 2.0 HD will do. Make sure you get one that is big enough to back up your entire system, once you get things settled. In general, you want one that is twice as big as all of your programs + all of your data files. (I'm currently using a 2TB HD in a USB 2.0 dock for mine, to back up about 1TB of system + data.) TM is brilliant and works extremely well, and when you need it, you NEED it.

    Also get a cloud-based backup service. I use Backblaze. It's very Mac-like, works great, backs up absolutely everything, and is pretty cheap (I got a year for $45 when I first signed up). If you lose something/everything, you can either download it for free, or have them FedEx you DVDs or a HD with all of your files. Same thing-when you need it, you NEED it.

    Aperture
    Give Aperture a real try. I love it and use it heavily. If you decide you like it, invest in a separate external HD (preferably portable, so you can store it off-site) for your Vaults.

    AppleCare
    Spring for AppleCare. Normally I don't believe in extended warranties, but in this case, I think it's worth every penny. If you ever have a problem, software or hardware, it's great to be able to take your machine down to the Genius Bar and have them look at it. I've had them fix things for no additional charge, once the box was out of the normal one year warranty. In my experience, they're pretty good about fixing things, sometimes even if you obviously broke something, but they ask fewer questions if you have AppleCare. thumb.gif

    Safe and secure computing
    Skip the anti-virus stuff and just enjoy your Mac and practice safe computing instead. I've never had a virus/Trojan problem with my Mac, but I run NoScript in FF, stay away from sketchy websites, and am reasonably careful about what I download and install. Make sure you run a user account (and not an Administrator account) as your primary account. OS X always asks you if you want to install something, tells you where it came from and when it was downloaded, and asks for an Administrator password before it installs a program, so things tend not to "sneak" onto your computer the way they seemed to in XP (in my experience).

    Have fun with your new Mac! I think you'll be very happy with it.
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    bloomphotogbloomphotog Registered Users Posts: 582 Major grins
    edited January 6, 2010
    .....My words of advice for new Mac owners are:......

    Wow...that is some great stuff. A BIG +1 thumb.gif
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    colourboxcolourbox Registered Users Posts: 2,095 Major grins
    edited January 6, 2010
    AppleCare
    Spring for AppleCare.

    Yes...but like RAM, you will often find better prices at retailers other than Apple.
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    aquaticvideographeraquaticvideographer Registered Users Posts: 278 Major grins
    edited January 6, 2010
    colourbox wrote:
    Yes...but like RAM, you will often find better prices at retailers other than Apple.
    True, and I should have mentioned earlier that Amazon is usually as cheap as anywhere to get the actual computer from, as long as you don't need a custom build. I've seen AppleCare discounted on Amazon as well, and you have up to a year from your purchase date of the Mac to buy and activate AppleCare. So you could always buy it separately from Amazon if the build you need is not available through them.
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    chrisjohnsonchrisjohnson Registered Users Posts: 772 Major grins
    edited January 7, 2010
    I'm a bit ahead of my personal curve here, but no time like present for PC-Mac transition that's grabbed hold of my thinking. Have about 6 months to make decision, that's when present 4 yr warranty expires on my Dell XPS-400, upgraded RAM and graphics card, fine machine. Principal use beyond Word and Excel is Photoshop (see my upload sites at signature below), so expect Dgrinners will loom big in helping me sort this thing out.

    I've been a happy user of Dell PC's for 15 years or so, but finally got hit by a virus attack a month ago, and notwithstanding the many hours of excellent screen-sharing warranted service by Dell software techs, I'm ready to surrender to the far less attacked Apple. Know I'll be paying more for less power, but think I'm over that hump, don't ever want to go through the virus experience again. I know there are crazies out there targeting Apple as well as PC, but vastly less in number, and Apple experience in this dept apparently is very good.

    Many considerations already are tackled, not least of which are a beautiful 27" diag screen and wife's passion for not having a big 'ol tower standing around. So looks like I'm talking a 27" iMac. Not many options, but would like Dgrinner input on a few of them. First, processors offered are Intel i5 266ghz and i7 286ghz, only $200 upgrade for the i7, but research seems to say i5 is good buy for very little performance sacrifice in the processing I'll typically be doing. Thoughts on that?

    Second, I'm thinking 8G of Ram, only a $200 upgrade for 2G cards filling all 4 slots (two 4G cards in two slots would provide for future expansion, but $400 more upgrade, and can't imagine even needing anywhere near even the 8G, that's a truckload of RAM). Thoughts on that?

    Third, the only graphics card offered with the i5 or i7 is the ATI Radeon HD 4850 512MB. I figure this has something to do with only a 375W power supply and heat considerations of the all-in-one design, but you can tell me. Thoughts on the card ?

    Fourth, I'm told by Apple that only one in over a thousand buy the iMac with an anti-virus program (apparently Norton makes a Mac version), but considering my experience, I'd be loath to be without it. Imagine it slows things down, etc, and Apple apparently does a good job on security updates, but think I'll be kind of psycho without it. Any thoughts?

    I'm not really looking to change from Photoshop, won't cost much more than than Aperture to get Mac basic version, and I'm reasonably well experienced with the particular PS workflow I follow. Aperture seems to cover the same things I use, but maybe I'm missing something. Wouldn't mind going to Aperture so all-Apple, they'd be there to support me, but again, I'm used to PS, see no reason to change other than any compatibility problem, and not having Apple there to support me. I will be running MS Office rather than iWorks, do lots of Excel work, silly to even consider changing horses on that. Any thoughts on Aperture?

    My present Dell Ultrasharp is a mat screen, the iMac a glossy. I process with shades closed and the only light being a color corrected (according to Eye-One monitor calibrator ambient light reading) compact fluorescent bulb mounted in a work shade pointed 45 degrees to a white ceiling. Any thoughts on processing on the glossy screen in this type environment?

    That's about it for now. I realize that iMac's configuration could well change between now and the time I'm ready to act, but anything other Dgrinners can provide certainly will get me educated to the nuances. BTW, I realize the machine I've described is a bit of a screamer, but I don't drive a Lambo or own a a 20,000 sq ft home, my computer's my boy toy, I'll keep it four years or so, overbuying's all part of the deal.

    Thanks in advance ...

    I bought apple for the first time a few months ago and I think you'll enjoy the switch - I did. There is not much of a learning curve - mostly keyboard shortcut habits.

    I use MS Office professionally without any problems. Aperture is great, but it is a different program to Photoshop - more geared to darkroom development and organizing. You need to figure what it is you actually want to do.

    I am thinking of replacing our desktop pc with an Imac but don't think I'll go for 27 inch - I don't want to watch movies and tend to work on one thing at a time. The 27 inch is over the top - for us.

    Practically speaking, anything over 4GB just gives you a faster cache when you work on lots of huge files at the same time - I don't. Maybe the future 64 bit app software will use the extra memory but I would not personally pay a premium to be maybe a bit more future safe. By then I had better be ready to buy a new Apple.

    I did buy the extra graphics processor but it is probably a waste of money. I learned to trust Apple in the meantime. Unless you are a gamer I would leave it. Still, if you have the cash and computing is mainstream in your life then why not - like getting the fastest processor.

    I love the glossy screen - no complaints. I wish I could afford an Eizo but we all make trade-offs.

    I don't use a virus scanner - a big plus. I am also psycho about virus scanning on a pc.

    I will not switch back to pc in this generation - nor do I ever hear anybody ever talking about switching from Apple to PC. The main reason is that the Apple just works and is beautifully integrated with all the other stuff in my cloud. Apple is not cheap but it is great value for money and a source of daily pleasure.
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    RovingEyePhotoRovingEyePhoto Registered Users Posts: 314 Major grins
    edited January 7, 2010
    I bought apple for the first time a few months ago and I think you'll enjoy the switch - I did. There is not much of a learning curve - mostly keyboard shortcut habits.

    I use MS Office professionally without any problems. Aperture is great, but it is a different program to Photoshop - more geared to darkroom development and organizing. You need to figure what it is you actually want to do.

    I am thinking of replacing our desktop pc with an Imac but don't think I'll go for 27 inch - I don't want to watch movies and tend to work on one thing at a time. The 27 inch is over the top - for us.

    Practically speaking, anything over 4GB just gives you a faster cache when you work on lots of huge files at the same time - I don't. Maybe the future 64 bit app software will use the extra memory but I would not personally pay a premium to be maybe a bit more future safe. By then I had better be ready to buy a new Apple.

    I did buy the extra graphics processor but it is probably a waste of money. I learned to trust Apple in the meantime. Unless you are a gamer I would leave it. Still, if you have the cash and computing is mainstream in your life then why not - like getting the fastest processor.

    I love the glossy screen - no complaints. I wish I could afford an Eizo but we all make trade-offs.

    I don't use a virus scanner - a big plus. I am also psycho about virus scanning on a pc.

    I will not switch back to pc in this generation - nor do I ever hear anybody ever talking about switching from Apple to PC. The main reason is that the Apple just works and is beautifully integrated with all the other stuff in my cloud. Apple is not cheap but it is great value for money and a source of daily pleasure.

    Many thanks. It's all these nuances that will help me slide smoothly into whatever Mac I end up with.

    Still struggling with PS vs. aperture. Not sure exactly what you mean by "more geared to darkroom development and organizing", but sounds basically like what I do. Would love to have the hours to create with layers and the world that opens, but outside of shooting, I'm time-limited pretty much just to processing through ACR for RAW adjustment (primarily Basic, Curves, Detail and HSL tabs, plus some minor correction of blemishes, etc), saving in ACR to RGB TIF, and opening in PS for sizing and saving to sRGB JPEG. I know that's kind of a rookie workflow, but serves my purposes, and gets the job done for the prox 1,500-2,000 keepers processed roughly May-Sep (cold weather pretty much brings all to a dead stop). So your term "darkroom development" probably covers it, and from the few hours I've already spent with Aperture at the local Apple Store, Aperture certainly seems to cover those bases. Elements probably would also, but if not doing PS, would seem a waste not to go all-Apple.

    I'm imagine that within 6 months the question of i5 vs. i7 will be cleared by other even more yummy alternatives. And no choice on the graphics card (only one in iMac), but that also undoubtedly will be different by the time I'm ready to buy.

    My plan would be to purchase 3-year iCare support, not overpriced, and will serve me well. I'm accustomed to Dell screen-share assist, where remote tech actually takes over computer, excellent system, but will get used to voice instruction by phone, especially if but a small fraction of the problems experienced since security was breached. We are careful about that, BTW, careful of sites visited and attachments opened (none), but still got hit. That's what's driving the change, never want to go through that again. The fact that Apple control over everything in the box apparently is tighter than exercised by PC mfgrs also is a factor, presumably better integration and more trouble-free experience.

    Based on others input, I'm having second thoughts on MS Office over Apple's iWorks. Although I use many complex Excel spreadsheets, I can get rid of macros and pivot tables and such, which I understand are principal problems with iWorks compatability. Cost isn't a factor, more a question of integration and more trouble free experience. Also, iCare covers iWorks, not MSOffice, so seems to be another of those all-Apple advantages.

    I'm not too concerned about learning curve. I'm coming from XP, so will have that with Win7 also. My hours already in at Apple Store indicate primarily differences in navigation, so not a very big deal. Hopefully I'm not understating that.

    Your RAM comments kind of parallel my thinking. We'll see where I go with that.

    As for 27" vs. 21.5", this is my Lambo -- enough said.

    I'll have to make up my mind on glossy. Apple Store is in same mall we normally shop, so will have plenty of exposure over the next several months.

    I'm hearing more and more that security software would be a mistake. I too use FF Noscript. Another matter I'll have to decide on.

    Expect others reading this will have different thoughts. Look forward to them all.
    See my work at http://www.flickr.com/photos/26525400@N04/sets/. Policy is to initially upload 10-20 images from each shoot, then a few from various of the in-process shoots each time I log on, until a shoot is completely uploaded.
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    RovingEyePhotoRovingEyePhoto Registered Users Posts: 314 Major grins
    edited January 7, 2010
    ***Warning: Apple fan boy alert!***

    A. You won't be paying more for less! deal.gif Apple is the standard of the visual arts industry. Every full-time pro I know uses one, seriously. Comparing on paper specs is foolish - look at the productivity benchmarks and you'll see why. Megabyhertzaflops don't matter if you are still stuck with a crappy OS from some Washington based mega-corp.

    B. The 27" iMac is the best choice for you. I would also spring for the i7, as it offers a good performance jump for the money. 8GB would be a great start. Go to 16GB in 2 years.

    C. Virus protection on a Mac is nothing more than bloatware. Totally unnecessary.

    D. iWork is awesome. MS Office for Mac sucks.

    E. Aperture is great. I personally prefer Lightroom, but I would suggest downloading trials of both. Use them for a month and see which app is producing better looking work for you. Lightroom does integrate with Photoshop a little better.

    Thanks, great input. I did note "Apple fan boy alert", getting used to that. Responded to later dGrinner at #16 below, pretty much heading along the lines you suggest. Would appreciate any further comment you might have to what I said there. Curious what you see in Lightroom you don't in Aperture. Given my workflow description at #16, any new thoughts on that?

    Again, thanks.
    See my work at http://www.flickr.com/photos/26525400@N04/sets/. Policy is to initially upload 10-20 images from each shoot, then a few from various of the in-process shoots each time I log on, until a shoot is completely uploaded.
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    RovingEyePhotoRovingEyePhoto Registered Users Posts: 314 Major grins
    edited January 7, 2010
    insanefred wrote:
    You got hit by one virus and already given up? Almost all viruses are actually Trojans, the user needs to invite them in order for it to attack. deal.gif

    Haven't you ever heard how bad Dell support is? ne_nau.gif

    Mac or PC, you should ALWAYS back up your stuff! rolleyes1.gif

    I would never buy a Mac screen, I can't do glossy. I'd just throw it away and replace it with a Eizo in a heartbeat. So are the stock mice, ewwww...

    Macs, get viruses/trojans and other mal-ware too, also the last time I checked. They are much easier to hi-jack remotely.


    Apple tends to have some serious compatibility issues, depending what programs that you intend to use.

    I am not against macs, but I rather see people be better educated and decide for themselves and not just "Follow the Herd".

    Also, why not just build your own system?



    A: Apple isn't a "standard" for anything. It is used in art/graphics/media industries, yes, but so are PCs.

    B: unfortunately most programs don't use anywhere close to 8GB of RAM.

    C: I agree with you here, it also is bloatware for PCs

    D: Openoffice, free and open source, look it up ;)
    Yeah, but this one virus was a doozie! Please see my response to another dGrinner at #16 below, very careful what we invite in, just happened. And there have been other headaches over the years, I guess could happen with Apple also, just seems excessive. BTW, I can say first-hand that Dell service at XPS level is first class -- no waiting in line, they are quick to screen-share and take over machine, and though can be long sessions, they generally resolve things in a single session. This recent attack we had was an exception, required several sessions and several weeks, but as said, we really got hit! All backed-up so didn't lose anything, but really got hit!

    See what I say in #16 about glossy screen. I have reservations, but will get lots of exposure to that (and mouse) over next several months, then we'll see. Photo processing in light-controlled room may resolve issue for that part of use, but everyday word processing and spreadsheet work could be a reflective mess, we'll see. Appreciate your comment on that, I stand warned.

    I've read of Mac attacks, and only can say seems logical that much fewer of them than PC attacks. From what I read, Apple is able to keep up with the situation, MS seems overwhelmed, logically just too many crazies aiming at their prox 90% of the market. Further thoughts?

    See #16 re compatibility. Existing word docs are pretty vanilla, and seems if I clean-up Excel spreadsheets for macros and pivot tables, broader feeling is that I'll have no problem. Otherwise, all else is PS, and my main treasures are TIFs, and a TIF's a TIF, isn't it? Comment?

    I don't take exception to your comment re: being educated and not following the herd, I'm a big proponent. But been with PCs for over 15 years, have had share of problems, capped by this last big hit, and everything I read plus anecdotal evidence seems to say Macs just are more reliable, components more tightly controlled, and OS far less subject to attack. I'm retired, no longer am concerned about client compatibility (never would be considering change if still had client compatibility to worry about), so far from following the herd, seems to me a pretty objective evaluation to be making the switch. What am I missing?

    As for building my own system, actually considered it, built my own hi-fi back in the day, can't remember having such fun (well, within reason). The follow-on would be just more than I'd want to worry about, at a place now where I typically "call the man", particularly where something as complex as home computer is involved.

    Leaning toward your thinking on RAM, 8g is a truckload, see #16 below. Unless 64 bit systems bring additional RAM into contention, I'll research some on that.

    Think we're together on security software, see #16 below. Essential I believe on PC, now leaning toward avoiding on Mac.

    Openoffice I understand is very credible. I say in #16 below that now leaning toward iWork rather than tried and true MSOffice. Given my personal situation, if going to change, nice to have all-Apple, have single-source support. And price seems pretty nominal. So tending in that direction.

    Many thanks for taking the time. Lots of things to exercise myself over.
    See my work at http://www.flickr.com/photos/26525400@N04/sets/. Policy is to initially upload 10-20 images from each shoot, then a few from various of the in-process shoots each time I log on, until a shoot is completely uploaded.
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    RovingEyePhotoRovingEyePhoto Registered Users Posts: 314 Major grins
    edited January 7, 2010
    I must declare my obsession with all things mac, and the i7 mac is top of my shopping list for this year.

    After initially being unable to source any here in Australia, the supply chain has now been restored. Fortunately, the delay enabled others to experience some problems with screen flickering on the 27" machine.

    From what I read on mac forums, a fix is now in place and the problem shouldn't affect current stock.

    I'm going to load mine up with 8GB at first, hopefully this will help with the speed of Aperture?

    Good luck with your purchase. I look forward to hearing your thoughts......
    Many thanks. Considerable addl discussion at #16 and 18 below. But seems to be leaning me toward the iMac 27" i7. A few months to consider, but great input here.
    See my work at http://www.flickr.com/photos/26525400@N04/sets/. Policy is to initially upload 10-20 images from each shoot, then a few from various of the in-process shoots each time I log on, until a shoot is completely uploaded.
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    RovingEyePhotoRovingEyePhoto Registered Users Posts: 314 Major grins
    edited January 7, 2010
    Richard wrote:
    It looks like you have done your homework and have identified the issues well. Here are a few thoughts:

    1) Processor: I suppose it really depends on how much horsepower you are likely to need over the next four years. Some people barely touch the limits of slower processors in Photoshop, if they are only doing simple adjustments. It is also a matter of temperament--if it really drives you up the wall to wait a few seconds every now and then, then you should go for the faster processor. You can never have too many cycles. On the other hand, the best value is never found at the very top end of computer components. Your call.

    2) Memory: Wait until you need it. The Mac version of CS4 is 32 bit only, so it cannot address more than 4GB. 64 bit support is promised for CS5 on the Mac and LR has it today. Again, it rather depends on what you are doing. You might never really need more than 4 GB. In any event, memory only gets cheaper over time, so what's the rush? Keep an eye on the PS efficiency readout--if it's staying at 100% all of the time, extra memory won't help you at all.

    3) Graphics card: Well, you have no choice, do you? That's the downside of an iMac--limited expansion and upgrade options. Take it or leave it. My guess is that if you're not into gaming or video editing, the Radeon card will be just fine for photo editing.

    4) Antivirus: I would never put Norton on a PC and I can't imagine the Mac version is any better--probably worse, since their main experience as developers is on Windows, not OS-X. I wouldn't bother with anti-virus on a Mac (yet). But you do need to be careful. Adobe Flash and Shockwave are the current favorite attack vectors of the sophisticated bad guys, and Macs are just as vulnerable as PCs. Prudence is the key. Remember that Macs are safer partly because they are targeted less often, not because they're made of unobtainium.

    5) Glossy screen: I hate them. Others don't. What can I say? If you calibrate it properly, it shouldn't really matter much.

    HTH.

    Full disclosure: I am a computer curmudgeon: both Microsoft and Apple irritate me.

    Edit: One last point to think about is your migration scheme. If you are using external drives for backup (and you should), there can be some logistical issues. Remember that OS-X can read but cannot write to NTFS formatted drives. There are third-party drivers available that claim to solve this issue. Think about what you have now and what you will need to do to end up safely on the Mac.

    Good luck.

    Many thanks for your input. Very helpful! Covers some new ground. Please see #16 and 18 below for full response to some earlier dGrinners. Any of that drive you to want to scream and pull hair and want to say something more? Please do.

    Unobtainium, "Avatar", right? Just took grandsons to 3D version. Grand movie: a history lesson, what might have been, a love story, and incredible graphic achievement. But I'm just one ticket buyer (actually four), what'd you think?

    Migration I think I have under control. Thanks for warning, can't assume anything.

    Again, many thanks.
    See my work at http://www.flickr.com/photos/26525400@N04/sets/. Policy is to initially upload 10-20 images from each shoot, then a few from various of the in-process shoots each time I log on, until a shoot is completely uploaded.
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    RovingEyePhotoRovingEyePhoto Registered Users Posts: 314 Major grins
    edited January 7, 2010
    colourbox wrote:
    With the iMacs you can at least hook up a second monitor of your liking, use it as the primary, and the built-in glossy as the secondary. For those who can deal with the glossy, the current iMacs have nice IPS monitors.
    Apple mice have always been terrible...yes. But I always use a Wacom tablet anyway.



    Based on the standard definition of a virus, there are nearly none out there for Macs, most that have been written about in the press are only proof of concept demonstrations, there are apparently none spreading in the wild. If there is one, name it... Trojans, similar story, show a list and we'll see.
    Macs are just as susceptible to phishing and social engineering attacks, though, since those are not technology based.
    I'd like to see the proof of the hijacking claim, especially with the firewall on and all forms of sharing and remote login off. (That does not prevent normal network usage.)



    True. Though the percentage of Macs in media is far higher than in the office cubicle world, and in many creative environments, is the majority.



    Photoshop is an important program here, and it can use 8GB if you open a large file and add layers and effects. I have also seen Lightroom do it when building large previews for hundreds of photos just imported. Also, if you run multiple programs at once (Photoshop, LR/Aperture/Bridge, web browser, mail, music, etc) you can fill up 8GB.



    In addition to Mac OpenOffice there is NeoOffice which is the same thing but doesn't require the X11 environment so it's easier for people like my mom.

    Many thanks for comments. Please see # 16 and 18 below where I respond to other dGrinner comments. Pretty well leaning toward your opinions on each matter discussed. I especially appreciate your specifics re: virus attacks, anecdotal evidence I've been relying on isn't always the best. If anything I say in #16 and 18 leads you to want to scream and pull at your hair, please let me have it. Thick skinned, want to reason this right.

    I've heard about connecting second matte screen before. Sounds like a good photo edit 19"back-up to me. Would existing Dell Ultrasharp (vintage 7/06) fit that scheme, or too much generational improvement in the interim for that to be sensible?

    Again, thanks.
    See my work at http://www.flickr.com/photos/26525400@N04/sets/. Policy is to initially upload 10-20 images from each shoot, then a few from various of the in-process shoots each time I log on, until a shoot is completely uploaded.
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    RovingEyePhotoRovingEyePhoto Registered Users Posts: 314 Major grins
    edited January 7, 2010
    jonboy61 wrote:
    I am forced to use a PC at work; at home we have three Macs. Don't buy RAM from Apple. Installing memory yourself is dead simple and a lot cheaper.

    Do I have to worry about quality? Any particular brands/retailers to stay with? Any Mac compatibility questions? Certainly, pitching the existing 2g card and buying two or more 4g cards at a decent price would be a benefit. I'm aware of how to load them, and agree, seems a simple task.

    Many thanks for thought.
    See my work at http://www.flickr.com/photos/26525400@N04/sets/. Policy is to initially upload 10-20 images from each shoot, then a few from various of the in-process shoots each time I log on, until a shoot is completely uploaded.
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    RovingEyePhotoRovingEyePhoto Registered Users Posts: 314 Major grins
    edited January 7, 2010
    colourbox wrote:
    That's been true in the past, but look carefully because on some models Apple's RAM prices are no longer outrageous. I've been helping friends shop for Macs in the past month and I was surprised to find that on models like the MacBook Pro 13", if you upgrade from 2GB to 4GB through the Apple Store it will cost you $100 more through Apple, $114 through Crucial, and $110 through macsales.com (my favorite upgrade vendor). I think it was the same story with the Mac mini.

    Where Apple still screws you is on the high-end upgrades. To take that 13" MacBook Pro to 8GB costs $466 at macsales.com and $700 at Apple.

    See my previous response immediately below. I'll look into macsales. Have no knowledge of suppliers servicing Apple, been all PC till now, so greatly appreciate info. All I'm losing by pitching standard 2G card is prox $70 (at least the way I calculate), that sound right. Who knows the future? Would prefer starting with 4g cards, but mighty costly from Apple when buying machine. Does using other brand/vendor RAM effect iMac warranty or 3-yr service plan?

    Many thanks for taking the time.
    See my work at http://www.flickr.com/photos/26525400@N04/sets/. Policy is to initially upload 10-20 images from each shoot, then a few from various of the in-process shoots each time I log on, until a shoot is completely uploaded.
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    RovingEyePhotoRovingEyePhoto Registered Users Posts: 314 Major grins
    edited January 7, 2010
    I agree. Newegg has some great prices on a 4GB kit for the iMac. Would only cost $100 to take the 27" iMac to 8GB. FYI, even from Newegg the cost to go to 16GB is over $1000. eek7.gif Amazing how expensive the latest technology is.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820226019
    Many thanks. See two immediately preceding responses. same questions apply. Any further input?
    See my work at http://www.flickr.com/photos/26525400@N04/sets/. Policy is to initially upload 10-20 images from each shoot, then a few from various of the in-process shoots each time I log on, until a shoot is completely uploaded.
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    RovingEyePhotoRovingEyePhoto Registered Users Posts: 314 Major grins
    edited January 7, 2010
    over 4 years ago..from PC to Mac..it has been a pure delight...now using a 27" i7 and can't imagine using a windows based machine..

    Seems the way I'm leaning. Always good to find fellow adventurers. Many thanks.
    See my work at http://www.flickr.com/photos/26525400@N04/sets/. Policy is to initially upload 10-20 images from each shoot, then a few from various of the in-process shoots each time I log on, until a shoot is completely uploaded.
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    RovingEyePhotoRovingEyePhoto Registered Users Posts: 314 Major grins
    edited January 7, 2010
    I've had Macs for about 7 years now, and have been really happy with them. I currently have a mid-2008 MacBook Pro, and it's been reliable, sturdy, fast, and fun. For what I do-photo and video editing and DAM-it's perfect.

    Regarding office programs, have you tried Google Docs? I use it almost exclusively now and it works great for my (admittedly limited) word processing and spreadsheet needs.

    My words of advice for new Mac owners are:

    Backup
    Invest in a decent quality external HD for use with Time Machine-it's one of the best user-facing features of OS X. It doesn't have to be a screamer or FW800 or anything like that, just a plain old USB 2.0 HD will do. Make sure you get one that is big enough to back up your entire system, once you get things settled. In general, you want one that is twice as big as all of your programs + all of your data files. (I'm currently using a 2TB HD in a USB 2.0 dock for mine, to back up about 1TB of system + data.) TM is brilliant and works extremely well, and when you need it, you NEED it.

    Also get a cloud-based backup service. I use Backblaze. It's very Mac-like, works great, backs up absolutely everything, and is pretty cheap (I got a year for $45 when I first signed up). If you lose something/everything, you can either download it for free, or have them FedEx you DVDs or a HD with all of your files. Same thing-when you need it, you NEED it.

    Aperture
    Give Aperture a real try. I love it and use it heavily. If you decide you like it, invest in a separate external HD (preferably portable, so you can store it off-site) for your Vaults.

    AppleCare
    Spring for AppleCare. Normally I don't believe in extended warranties, but in this case, I think it's worth every penny. If you ever have a problem, software or hardware, it's great to be able to take your machine down to the Genius Bar and have them look at it. I've had them fix things for no additional charge, once the box was out of the normal one year warranty. In my experience, they're pretty good about fixing things, sometimes even if you obviously broke something, but they ask fewer questions if you have AppleCare. thumb.gif

    Safe and secure computing
    Skip the anti-virus stuff and just enjoy your Mac and practice safe computing instead. I've never had a virus/Trojan problem with my Mac, but I run NoScript in FF, stay away from sketchy websites, and am reasonably careful about what I download and install. Make sure you run a user account (and not an Administrator account) as your primary account. OS X always asks you if you want to install something, tells you where it came from and when it was downloaded, and asks for an Administrator password before it installs a program, so things tend not to "sneak" onto your computer the way they seemed to in XP (in my experience).

    Have fun with your new Mac! I think you'll be very happy with it.

    Many thanks. I'm leaning the ways you describe on practically all this. I'm aware of GoogleDocs as well as other freeware solutions, but as commented at #16 and 18 below, now considering iWork so all-Apple and covered byAppleCare support. iWork cost seems moderate, and I can work around existing Excel macros, etc. that I'm told otherwise might cause compatibility problems. Obviously already am pretty much set on taking AppleCare, seemingly universally praised. Also am acquainted with TM and decided on external HD back-up, although have much to learn re: cloud-based, will catch-up with that. Your comment about running a user account as primary is helpful, something else I have to catch-up on. Please read my comments in #16 and 18 below to other dGrinners on subjects of Aperture and NoScript, etc, if anything there that leads you to want to scream or pull hair out, please let me know.

    Again, many thanks for taking the time.
    See my work at http://www.flickr.com/photos/26525400@N04/sets/. Policy is to initially upload 10-20 images from each shoot, then a few from various of the in-process shoots each time I log on, until a shoot is completely uploaded.
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    RovingEyePhotoRovingEyePhoto Registered Users Posts: 314 Major grins
    edited January 7, 2010
    True, and I should have mentioned earlier that Amazon is usually as cheap as anywhere to get the actual computer from, as long as you don't need a custom build. I've seen AppleCare discounted on Amazon as well, and you have up to a year from your purchase date of the Mac to buy and activate AppleCare. So you could always buy it separately from Amazon if the build you need is not available through them.
    I'll take that to heart. Many thanks.
    See my work at http://www.flickr.com/photos/26525400@N04/sets/. Policy is to initially upload 10-20 images from each shoot, then a few from various of the in-process shoots each time I log on, until a shoot is completely uploaded.
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    colourboxcolourbox Registered Users Posts: 2,095 Major grins
    edited January 7, 2010
    I've heard about connecting second matte screen before. Sounds like a good photo edit 19"back-up to me. Would existing Dell Ultrasharp (vintage 7/06) fit that scheme, or too much generational improvement in the interim for that to be sensible?

    I don't know that monitor, but a good rule is, if you can still calibrate it to your target specs, plug it in... The iMac has a mini DisplayPort and the Dell probably has a DVI port, so you'll need the proper cable. Apple will sell you one, but if you don't already know, try to get your cables at monoprice because they're cheaper. Here's their Mini DisplayPort to DVI adapter.
    Does using other brand/vendor RAM effect iMac warranty or 3-yr service plan?

    In most current Mac models, Apple defines RAM as "user-replaceable" and therefore replacing it yourself does not affect the warranty. You can download the iMac manual and see instructions for replacing RAM right there. Of course, they warn you that they won't cover damage if you somehow screw up the inside of the machine while changing your RAM, but otherwise they don't have a problem showing you the steps.

    If you take your Mac in for warranty service, Apple may put their own RAM in for testing purposes. If the problem still happens (due to the problem not being related to RAM at all), they'll fix it under warranty. If the problem you have doesn't occur when Apple RAM is in the machine, they may say it's not their problem.
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    aquaticvideographeraquaticvideographer Registered Users Posts: 278 Major grins
    edited January 7, 2010
    ...Please read my comments in #16 and 18 below to other dGrinners on subjects of Aperture and NoScript, etc, if anything there that leads you to want to scream or pull hair out, please let me know...

    It sounds like, from what you've described, Aperture may be a better choice for you than Photoshop, at least as far as asset management goes. I don't do lots of complicated adjustments to my photos, and they are nearly all global, so Aperture is perfect for me. The other thing I really like about it is that it is excellent at keywording, finding individual photos, keeping a database of all of your photos orgnized in projects/albums, rating photos, etc. etc. (It also has a SmugMug upload plugin. clap.gif )

    Aperture is different from Photoshop in that it has these asset management features, as does Lightroom. If you're not used to having access to asset management features, you're in for a big treat. It makes life SO much easier to have the program manage stuff like that. Also, as you know, I'm a big backup guy, and Aperture's dead-simple backup feature (called a Vault) is simple and easy and "just works". It's also pretty fast on most recent (last couple of years) Macs.

    I believe that Aperture is a bit cheaper than Lightroom, esp. if you buy on Amazon.

    One last tip on secure computing: Apple's default firewall is pretty good and should be turned on and in stealth mode. You can lock everything down and grant access to individual programs, and it's easy to manage. If you're really into power and control, you can open individual ports, or edit the rules manually, etc. etc.
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    RichardRichard Administrators, Vanilla Admin Posts: 19,937 moderator
    edited January 7, 2010
    Many thanks for your input. Very helpful! Covers some new ground. Please see #16 and 18 below for full response to some earlier dGrinners. Any of that drive you to want to scream and pull hair and want to say something more? Please do.

    Unobtainium, "Avatar", right? Just took grandsons to 3D version. Grand movie: a history lesson, what might have been, a love story, and incredible graphic achievement. But I'm just one ticket buyer (actually four), what'd you think?

    Migration I think I have under control. Thanks for warning, can't assume anything.

    Again, many thanks.
    Only one red flag for me. You wrote:
    Based on others input, I'm having second thoughts on MS Office over Apple's iWorks. Although I use many complex Excel spreadsheets, I can get rid of macros and pivot tables and such, which I understand are principal problems with iWorks compatability. Cost isn't a factor, more a question of integration and more trouble free experience. Also, iCare covers iWorks, not MSOffice, so seems to be another of those all-Apple advantages.
    If cost is not a factor, you are insane to use anything other than Office, given that you already have expertise. The whole corporate world runs on the Office suite, partly because Msft got the integration right a long time ago. iWorks? Give me a break. lol3.gif

    I haven't seen Avatar yet. Unobtainium is an old physics and engineering joke that was mentioned with a very straight face in the all time bad-physics film, The Core.
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    RovingEyePhotoRovingEyePhoto Registered Users Posts: 314 Major grins
    edited January 7, 2010
    colourbox wrote:
    I don't know that monitor, but a good rule is, if you can still calibrate it to your target specs, plug it in... The iMac has a mini DisplayPort and the Dell probably has a DVI port, so you'll need the proper cable. Apple will sell you one, but if you don't already know, try to get your cables at monoprice because they're cheaper. Here's their Mini DisplayPort to DVI adapter.



    In most current Mac models, Apple defines RAM as "user-replaceable" and therefore replacing it yourself does not affect the warranty. You can download the iMac manual and see instructions for replacing RAM right there. Of course, they warn you that they won't cover damage if you somehow screw up the inside of the machine while changing your RAM, but otherwise they don't have a problem showing you the steps.

    If you take your Mac in for warranty service, Apple may put their own RAM in for testing purposes. If the problem still happens (due to the problem not being related to RAM at all), they'll fix it under warranty. If the problem you have doesn't occur when Apple RAM is in the machine, they may say it's not their problem.
    Good advice. I'll check it all out. Again, thanks ...
    See my work at http://www.flickr.com/photos/26525400@N04/sets/. Policy is to initially upload 10-20 images from each shoot, then a few from various of the in-process shoots each time I log on, until a shoot is completely uploaded.
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