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Indoor Sports Lighting Question
GadgetRick
Registered Users Posts: 787 Major grins
I put this here instead of in the lighting area because it's specific to sports.
I shoot a lot of MMA. Don't use flash for all of the obvious reasons. I've been toying with the idea of setting up 2 or 3 Alien Bee B800s in a venue I'm shooting at soon. It's a small college gym. I know the lighting is going to be sketchy--and I can work with it but have been thinking of trying something different. I'm the official photog for the event and the promoter will work with me to get me whatever I need (power, security, etc.). I have some concerns, however:
-placement--doesn't make sense to position them around the cage pointing down as I'd get hot spots. Need to bounce them (hopefully) off the ceiling. I think I remember the ceiling being a lighter color (although not flat like most gyms) but I have to check. All bets may be off if it's not.
-recharge time--with the B800s, if I power down, I can easily shoot in bursts at my body's burst rate without worrying about recharge time. They're also supposed to be made for that sort of thing (I've not tried it for an extended period of time yet). If I have to power them up too high to get enough light, it'll slow down my shooting.
-security--already spoke with the promoter and he told me he'd have people watch them for me if I'd like. But I, well, you know, just don't trust the lugs they hire for security at these events. Looking for ideas on how to keep them safe.
-will it even work?--I've never seen anyone try this with MMA but wondering if it's just because, well, nobody's tried.
Anyway, always looking for ways to differentiate myself. I know, I can get better lighting with flash. Just don't know if I can pull it off from a practical standpoint. Can't have them too close to the cage or the fighters will be blinded (not a good thing) if they're looking at the wrong place.
If I'm totally crazy, just let me know. Just looking to see if I might be able to make this work.
Thanks.
I shoot a lot of MMA. Don't use flash for all of the obvious reasons. I've been toying with the idea of setting up 2 or 3 Alien Bee B800s in a venue I'm shooting at soon. It's a small college gym. I know the lighting is going to be sketchy--and I can work with it but have been thinking of trying something different. I'm the official photog for the event and the promoter will work with me to get me whatever I need (power, security, etc.). I have some concerns, however:
-placement--doesn't make sense to position them around the cage pointing down as I'd get hot spots. Need to bounce them (hopefully) off the ceiling. I think I remember the ceiling being a lighter color (although not flat like most gyms) but I have to check. All bets may be off if it's not.
-recharge time--with the B800s, if I power down, I can easily shoot in bursts at my body's burst rate without worrying about recharge time. They're also supposed to be made for that sort of thing (I've not tried it for an extended period of time yet). If I have to power them up too high to get enough light, it'll slow down my shooting.
-security--already spoke with the promoter and he told me he'd have people watch them for me if I'd like. But I, well, you know, just don't trust the lugs they hire for security at these events. Looking for ideas on how to keep them safe.
-will it even work?--I've never seen anyone try this with MMA but wondering if it's just because, well, nobody's tried.
Anyway, always looking for ways to differentiate myself. I know, I can get better lighting with flash. Just don't know if I can pull it off from a practical standpoint. Can't have them too close to the cage or the fighters will be blinded (not a good thing) if they're looking at the wrong place.
If I'm totally crazy, just let me know. Just looking to see if I might be able to make this work.
Thanks.
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Troy, MI
D700/200, SB800(4), 70-200, 300 2.8 and a few more
www.sportsshooter.com/tjk60
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GR, that was not my point. The AB800 t.1 duration gets shorter as you power down. Yes that let's you recycle faster, but you lose your 'strobe stopping' power. (you want a t.1 that is faster not slower...)
You'll easily be able to light the gym sufficiently with 3 AB800s. You could place in 3 corners, bounce off a light colored ceiling. Many people do this for vball and basketball
The issue is that you will not be able to rip off 4-5 shots in a row. You might get 2 per second. Then you need to recycle fully. (1 sec). Also, your effective shutter speed is likely to be determined by the strobes (you'll need to overpower ambient by 3+ stops). At 1/2 power your 'effective' shutter speed is about 1/640. If that is ok, then the AB800s will easily do the job.
Speedlights, unlike strobes, have a FASTER t.1 time as the power is turned down. I regularly shoot wrestling and basketball at 1/4 -2/3 power with 4 speedlights in a h/s gym with a dingy old ceiling. I get 4 to 5 shots in a row if needed and still have the power to overcome ambient. My shutter is 1/250 (sync speed) ISO is 640-1000 and shooting at 2.8
I light up hockey rinks with the 4 lights. I was able to light the rink with 2 AB800s, but I returned them because the t.1 was slow enough to introduce blur...
Hope this helps....
BTW the new Einstiens solve some of this problem...
http://www.paulcbuff.com/pcb2009/einstein.html
And Elichcrom is a bit better than ABs, but more expensive...
Troy, MI
D700/200, SB800(4), 70-200, 300 2.8 and a few more
www.sportsshooter.com/tjk60
Ah, I get it now. Thank you for the clarification.
That's a shame as I was looking forward to giving it a shot (pun intended). However, for MMA, I shoot in bursts and LOTS of bursts. So this wouldn't work at all. I guess that would be why I've not seen anyone trying it.
Oh well, that's why I asked. Thanks again for the explanation. Very helpful.
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All is not lost (maybe) you could get inexpensive triggers, multiple speedlights (any brand that has a pcsync connector) and turn them way down (to like 1/16 power) and flash away. You may need to change batteries between bouts...
Troy, MI
D700/200, SB800(4), 70-200, 300 2.8 and a few more
www.sportsshooter.com/tjk60
I already have that capability. Only problem is, things happen pretty fast during the fights and I don't have an assistant (no money for it). I'm also trying to capture the goings on inside the cage after the fight as well as some crowd shots and the fighters' entrance. Don't really have time to fiddle with the gear.
Oh well, I'm still getting great shots. Was just going to see if I could improve on it--and do something a little different.
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How many shots a night? I regularly go 3-450 w/o changing batts...
Troy, MI
D700/200, SB800(4), 70-200, 300 2.8 and a few more
www.sportsshooter.com/tjk60
Anywhere from 1000-2000 depending on the number of bouts, how long they go, etc.
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You should be able to get that many shots out of a set of powerex / maha's at 1/16th.
I've got a similar event coming up that I want to try this with; the All-Army Combatives tournament at Fort Benning in a couple of weeks.
I'm planning on using a mix of studio strobes and speedlights but using the shutter speed to stop the action / blur instead of the t.1. Last time I shot a similar event I was 'capped' at 1/250th sync speed and as mentioned above the blur was evident.
I'd like to end up with 1/1000th or so @ f/4, ISO800ish, but we'll see...
Nikon | Private Photojournalist
I'll have to try it sometime when it's not a paying gig I think. Just need to ensure I get the shots I need to get for this one.
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I'd like to know how this turns out. I'm pretty sure you'll run into problems with shooting over your sync speed...
Troy, MI
D700/200, SB800(4), 70-200, 300 2.8 and a few more
www.sportsshooter.com/tjk60
Kelly
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I can sync all of the lights that I'll be using up to 1/8000th.
Nikon | Private Photojournalist
I disagree; I prefer setting the flashes manually (even in situations where I'm utilizing the Nikon wireless control and could use TTL). Too many times I've had 'interesting' results with multiple flash TTL setups and you aren't able to backtrack those shots and get information from the exif or camera data that shows you how much each flash was actually contributing to the shot.
Nikon | Private Photojournalist
Troy, MI
D700/200, SB800(4), 70-200, 300 2.8 and a few more
www.sportsshooter.com/tjk60
shot with ebay triggers and 4 bounced speedlights (3 SB-800, 1 SB-28).
same setup different gym
This topic has been covered many times. High speed sync is completely unnecessary. Expensive triggers aren't necessary unless you are in a very large arena (probably not even then) or shooting where many other photographers are shooting at the same time.
e-bay trigger range is very easily extended by connecting a second transmitter to your closest receiver with the included sync cord. I get full gym coverage with a transmitter on my camera and a second attached to one of the receivers. Adding a longer antena as described by some is a waste of time and money when an additional transmitter is only $10 more than a receiver alone. You get far more range and can daisy chain multiples to cover even larger spaces.
The simplest explanation of why high speed sync isn't required is something everyone here has likely experienced. Think of your flash as a strobe similar to the one you see on dance floors. Your eyes are open far longer than any shutter and for some reason the dancers appear to be stopping. Your flashes burst of light is far shorter than your shutter speed when not set to high speed sync. As long as the camera interprets the ambient light as very dark (2 stops underexposed) and your flash power is adequate to compensate for your 2 stop underexposure, the flash will stop the action even at a shutter speed of 1/60th. Using high sync speed on your flash actually lengthens the duration of your flashes light burst in order to compensate for the time it takes to open and close the louvers in your camera. As a result you get far less power from the flash, requiring more battery power and longer recycle times.
If you use the search function here, you will find many discussions and even some very technical descriptions of how your camera works with your flash. The explanation of louvers as a barn door is well worth the read.
www.seanmartinphoto.com
__________________________________________________
it's not the size of the lens that matters... It's how you focus it.
aaaaa.... who am I kidding!
whoever dies with the biggest coolest piece of glass, wins!
Nikon | Private Photojournalist
Nikon | Private Photojournalist
Do you have a quick diagram of how you placed the speedlights that you wouldn't mind sharing? Also, how much are you depending on the floor to give additional bounce for the lighting? What I mean by that is, if the athletes were standing on a dark blue mat ( cheerleading here...), would that change things? Not to start the whole flash for cheerleading debate, but I am very interested in using flash in different gym setups.
Thanks, Lance.
No diagram. I shoot with 4 flashes. I typically bounce off the ceiling and wall. Depending on the sport and layout, this can change. For basketball, I'll mount at the end of the stands, bouncing all four lights off the wall behind the basket and usually stand along that wall. For Volleyball, I usually bounce off the ceiling and wall along the side I am shooting from. Each gym will require a bit of thought and some trial and error. I'll usually shoot a gym several times in a season, so with a bit of tinkering I can dial it in after a couple games.
www.seanmartinphoto.com
__________________________________________________
it's not the size of the lens that matters... It's how you focus it.
aaaaa.... who am I kidding!
whoever dies with the biggest coolest piece of glass, wins!
Those shots look good - I know it all probably depends but what's your base starting point for flash power settings / camera settings?
Nikon | Private Photojournalist
All flashes set 1/4 power. When I bounce I usually zoom them to their longest focal length (105mm to 85mm) because I can't usually mount very close to the surface I want to use as my light source. Camera settings are usually f2.8 to f4, 1/200 to 1/250, ISO 400 to 1600, WB kelvin value 5000 - 6500 (inspect until it looks good). I typically inspect images in highlight mode and look to obtain a small amount of blown highlights, or zoom in to examine faces for exposure and detail. Light setup takes 5 to 10 minutes and exposure setup takes 2 to 5 minutes.
www.seanmartinphoto.com
__________________________________________________
it's not the size of the lens that matters... It's how you focus it.
aaaaa.... who am I kidding!
whoever dies with the biggest coolest piece of glass, wins!
Awesome, very cool info!
I like the 1/4 setting too for most of my remote speedlight setups; don't have to worry much about recycle time or limiting number of shots that way. Interesting stuff to keep in mind about the WB and checking highlights - I agree on both.
I did some more testing on recycle times today with my planned lighting setup for this weekend and my setup will be using 3 Bowens Pulsar triggers (plus 1 on camera) to trigger SB800's set at 1/128th in order to trigger the optical slaves on 5 160ws studio strobes set at 1/4 power; which will recycle fast enough to let me fire at 3fps continually at any shutter speed.
In order to sync the SB's w/ these triggers they'd have to be at 1/1 power, and even though I have Quantums to power them, they just wouldn't give me the recycle time that I need.
But I'm thinking when I have more triggers available, my setup should probably be to utilize all the SB's at 1/4 power, deal with the 1/250th sync speed by overpowering the ambient and stopping the action with the short flash duration of the SB's.
That sound about right?
Nikon | Private Photojournalist
I've actually never used studio strobes, so I'm not sure how to guide you there. I don't know how big an area you are trying to light. Typically I get coverage of 1/3 to 1/2 a HS gym with my setup. They are small town gyms as well. If you need more coverage, you may need the additional light. With my setup I can typically get 3 frames at 5 to 6 fps before needing to wait for a recharge. I'm not familiar with your triggers either. With the cactus triggers, I could actually trigger more than one flash with a single receiver since they have a sync cord plug. I've just never purchased or made any sync cords for them. It looks like you have a ton of SB units. Too bad we didn't get on it earlier. I just looked at the bowens triggers.
They do seem to have sync cord plugs. Basically that is a two wire signal sent to your flash. It should be possible to split it and fire more than one flash with the trigger. Based on your description, you could fire up to two clusters of flashes if you split the signal. With 2 900s and 6 800s you've got a lot of light there.
Below is a photo of my various flash gear.
you might be interested in the batteries. I rarely need to charge them. They are way oversized for the job. Batteries half the size could probably get you through 6 hours of shooting. The power plugs are nothing more than dowels with holes down the middle and a blob of solder on the end of the wire. The dowels are glued into a small piece of wood the correct distance apart. I hold them in with a rubber band. I think the batteries I have ran $20 to $25 at Batteries plus. You can view the above photo full size here:
http://donek.smugmug.com/Other/flash-experiments/DSC4425/997611862_8HACf-O.jpg
I've often thought about making a little video on how to make them. I don't know if it's really that necessary given their simplicity though.
www.seanmartinphoto.com
__________________________________________________
it's not the size of the lens that matters... It's how you focus it.
aaaaa.... who am I kidding!
whoever dies with the biggest coolest piece of glass, wins!
Yep, the triggers have the sync cord plugs, and I have a couple of splitter cords too (1 miniplug to 2 PC). I have 6 more triggers on order, but B&H/Adorama are both on holiday all week so I don't think they'll come in before this weekend's competition.
With 5 of the small 160ws studio strobes @1/4 (I use {and love} the cheap adorama budget strobe), I'm hoping to cover the entire gym - using an on camera SB900 @ 1/4 or 1/2 (and zoomed in) for fill.
Option #2 for this weekend if the other trigger's don't arrive is to add in an SB or 2 powered by the quantum turbo3's, but in order to sync them above 1/250th with this setup I have to pop them at 1/1 power. Even with the quantum's powering them they won't give me the recycle time that I need.
I could run all speedlights at 1/4 power using the remotes and splitter cords and stay under 1/250th, but I don't think that will give me the power that the 5 studio lights will. (but I do need to test that Thursday when I setup)
Here's the setup I had on one side of the gym last time:
And the two wire splitter that I use with the $11 dual flash adorama bracket and Justin-clamp:
Nikon | Private Photojournalist
To be honest, I wasn't getting enough light with my studio light idea. I had to power them down to 1/4 in order to get 100% consistent firing at 3fps (which was the slowest I was going to be comfortable with). The light is 'ok', and you can tell it's there and sculpting those on the court/floor, but didn't really have the punch I was looking for.
So tomorrow I'm going back, and taking advice mentioned above to go with speedlights all around. Tested recycle time tonight and at 1/4 I got 5 shots in a row @ 9fps. I might run a few of them via Quantum Turbo3's at 1/2 power and see what type of burst that will give me. I'll let them breathe in between bursts though, don't want to burn these things up.
I'll have 3 remotes available (plus the one on the camera) and plan on using those plus a few splitter sync cords and optical triggers to setup 2 SB's in each of the 2 far corners and 3 SB's in another corner (7 SB's remote, one SB900 on camera for fill).
I'll try setting that up tomorrow and will report back - hopefully this will help and still fits into the original subject of the post
Nikon | Private Photojournalist
I'm not really sure what the event is, so this may not be possible, but I typically only light a portion of the gym. Do you really need to be able to cover the entire gym or can you get away with shooting from one side? My system is portable enough that I can move it in 3 to 4 minutes to the opposite end at half time. I know of a number of guys who take this approach.
www.seanmartinphoto.com
__________________________________________________
it's not the size of the lens that matters... It's how you focus it.
aaaaa.... who am I kidding!
whoever dies with the biggest coolest piece of glass, wins!
The first half of the tournament (army wide mma/ufc style combatives tournament) there will be several matches going on at a time, so that will cause me to need to cover lots of ground. Later during the weekend I'll be able to focus just on the middle of the gym though.
Nikon | Private Photojournalist
That is pretty decent lighting. Can you shoot at f/2.8 or f/2 and forgo the lighting (at least for some if not all of the event)?
If I shoot without lighting I'll need a faster shutter speed to stop the action, will do some more tests today.
Nikon | Private Photojournalist