So im going by the gym today, and next week will be the week of the posed portraits. then the week after will be the week of the candid action shots.
Would you recommend me to treat this as two separate sales events? Or as one large sales event after the candid pictures are done?
I was thinking if I treated this as two separate transactions, we could do a sales session after each posed portrait when there is time *seems like its going to be assembly line, 5 min each for the boys, bit more time for the other classes because there are less kids in those* so hopefully I can do 5 different poses in 5 min and send the card to my helper while I do the next one. I did pretty well last year offering only sheets of pictures, if I were to offer digital files I may be cutting my profits down.
For the candid / action shots I was going to offer both digital and prints with heavily watermarked very low res pics online for them to choose thier numbers from if they dont want to wait for a sales session in the gym.
When you say sales session, is this the first time the parents get to see the prices also? Do you have flyers/envelopes to send home with the athletes before picture day? I would treat this as two seperate events. If you tell them it is one, then they may decide not to buy at first, thinking they will just pick the best of the group for their kid. Make packages where the team photo is only available as part of a package, and the action/candids are extras on another day... Maybe you wont get as many action photos sold, but ( I could be wrong on this...) I don't image this being a big seller. As far as digitals of the T&I pics, I don't do it. On picture day, every parent that walks out without buying... is probably not going to buy online either. You have to get them that day. I had parents ask me to put photos online so they could choose and buy because they couldn't stay to pick photos that day (although I saw them chatting in the lobby well after they said they had to leave...) and they never purchased.
Yes, this will be the first time the parents see the prices. The plan was to do the posed shots the last week but things got changed and they will be the first week.
Because of having to do all the posed shots in one class, and there being up to 12 students in each hour class, each session will be about 5 minutes long, so I think Ill have the picture viewing on another day, and give them information on my packages and options the day of the pictures. That way when they come back to look at the pictures, they will be prepared.
Im going to have about a thousand pictures I estimate from the 8 classes over two weeks. I think the best way to have them review the pics and place an order would be online, I would like to do it another way but I dont see a way around it. the pictures will be heavily watermarked and they wont be reduced in opacity that much. : ) I may flag some pics when going through them that I think stand out above the rest and put them into the posed folders for the picture viewing.
For those that done this in the past, and put them online, did you create a separate gallery for each parent, or did you create a separate gallery for each class, or for each school? I thought I should create password protected galleries for the kids privacy but not sure if one gallery for each class is enough. it would be pain to try to sort out each kid though since a picture can contain multiple kids.
For those that done this in the past, and put them online, did you create a separate gallery for each parent, or did you create a separate gallery for each class, or for each school? I thought I should create password protected galleries for the kids privacy but not sure if one gallery for each class is enough. it would be pain to try to sort out each kid though since a picture can contain multiple kids.
I would go for classes.
If I read right and you are saying there is only 12 kids in each class, that's nothing. For the events i do I can have 50 people in one section and that's as far as I can break it down. No one ever complains.
I have a thing with password protecting galleries.
I think it's a load of Rubbish.
To me it is putting an obstacle in the way of sales and catering to the neurotics that think there is a boogey man just waiting to prey on their child at every opportunity.
If you HAVE to use a password I would put the question on the log in page and make the password as painfully obvious as possible.
For showing the pictures, have you considered doing proof sheets instead of or as well as the online thing?
Proofs for every parent or a set of proofs in a book for them to look through and mark the ones they like? That could be an option. but 12 images per page, and I estimate a thousand images after the two weeks of classes, that would be about 84 pages. which would be about 11 pages per class on average.
makes me wish I had a bulk ink system. hp my printer can take it but it would be expensive investment.
I do like this idea though, of somehow getting the proofs in front of the parents. at least I could do it on my laser printer, do you think it being monochrome would hurt the sales?
For those that done this in the past, and put them online, did you create a separate gallery for each parent, or did you create a separate gallery for each class, or for each school? I thought I should create password protected galleries for the kids privacy but not sure if one gallery for each class is enough. it would be pain to try to sort out each kid though since a picture can contain multiple kids.
If at ALL possible, sell at the time the images are taken!! I can't impress this enough. As someone that has done this several years for over 1300 dancer each year, you will never get the sales you want on-line compared to selling the day the images are taken. Parents are procrastinators and no matter the images, they will always put off today what can be done tomorrow...Been there and done that.
We sell the day of the shoot. We use tethered cameras and everything is run through LR and on to a central server. The girls up front then take the order after the session is completed, as the Parent has a form that contains the number of the images from their child. We shoot ONE full-length image and one close up PER COSTUME (additional will cost you...) We average 6 sets of images per child. When the session for each child is complete, the girls up front take the form, quickly bring up the images for that child in Pro Select and ask the Parent which images they want to order and what package(s)/Products they want. Average time is about 12 minutes per parent and then they are passed off to my clerk who takes their money. We can do an average studio of about 180 dancers in two days with the dancers spread out over an 8 hour day.
If a mom is indecisive and can't make her mind up, we allow here to go home and come back before the end of the studio's shoot and place her order. (We only have 1-2 Mom's to complain and that are indecisive...and these are always the ones with a problem child/children that she brought along and she can't keep under control while in the studio.)
This year our dance studios are complete and already delivered NO later than 1 month after completion. We averaged 200.00 per child on sales for the year, thou not all dancers that take the photos buy...
Some mom's will come back a few months after the shoot and want to buy and will end up paying the late fee...25.00 and then order prints. Not many, but they have plenty of warning to come prepared to order. Most of the studios I know don't even allow mom's in the room, or to preview and order as we do...it is plain and simple, fill out the form, orde the package you want with the costume you want and put your payment in the envelope.
We find that we increase our sales tremendously when we preview and have the opportunity to push specialty items like multi-image prints and collages.
I know this won't work for all, but the principle behind it will...SELL BEFORE the child is gone from the session. You will alway make more from pre-selling/selling at the moment of creation than you ever will by placing them on line, in a proof book or other method of selling on speculation.
Another suggestion is to limit the number of images the parent has to choose from...get a good pose in that costume and move to the next kid. We tried the multiple images per child and it was a huge disaster...can you say I N D E C I S I V E?? "Well...her hand is more pointed in that one...no wait, lets see that other one again.." One and done...we have a 42" flat screen that the image just taken pops up on and the mom says yes or no...and we are on to the next shot or child. Make is easy for the mom's to choose, easy to spend money and get it when you have completed the work and you will find your gross much higher than selling on-line or at a later date.
We use this principle for most every School/School Sports team, Prom, Dance and event with very good success. The parent/child wants the photo, but they don't want to have to "extert and effort" (on their part) to get.
Proofs for every parent or a set of proofs in a book for them to look through and mark the ones they like? That could be an option. but 12 images per page, and I estimate a thousand images after the two weeks of classes, that would be about 84 pages. which would be about 11 pages per class on average.
I have just printed proof for 30 schools. No of pages ranges from 8 to 42.
Very near 1000 pages. I estimate that used about $26 worth of ink.
3 prints @ $15 ea and I'm covered
makes me wish I had a bulk ink system. hp my printer can take it but it would be expensive investment.
So Dump it and buy something like this:
The Cis systems are not expensive either.
I Haven't tested this one or know anything about it, I'm merely pointing out what to look for and giving an indication of price.
The bottom line is for around $200 bucks you can produce proofs and great quality pics and small run promo pieces for next to nothing.
If the HP is uneconomical, set yourself up with something that is.
these things now are cheap and virtually disposable so don't get hung up on brands or quality or whatever. Use the thing for the purpose, make money from it and when it dies finally, get something else.
As the CIS won't wear out but they change printer cartridges all the time, i bought 3 printers all the same. This allows me to printer pool for faster output, have a spare and when one breaks I can use the CIS on the other one even if they current models don't use that ink type.
at least I could do it on my laser printer, do you think it being monochrome would hurt the sales?
Thinking about it, yes. I think it could hurt sales.
To me it would look just too cheap and basic. You want to motivate the parents to buy. I personally don't think this is going to cut it.
Its too far away from the finished product for parents to visualise and in reality, the lasers I have seen at least aren't great at pics anyway.
Another option could be to pre-print everything.
It sounds scary but the times i have done it the sales have been excellent.
Prints have huge markup so you can afford to do some generous packages and whatever is left over you won't be worried about.
I have done a few events like this and much to my initial doubts, it works well.
All this said, I do agree with James.
Selling on the day is where you are going to realize the most return for your efforts.
Instead of V stations you could get a few computers linked up and get some people selling the pics to the parents. Bit more expense in wages but when you break it down you would probably only have to sell 2-3 prints an hour to cover the wages so I can't see how you could go wrong.
I didn't see where ( If) you mentioned how many kids you will be shooting but the more your doing the greater your earn so the more people you can afford to put on the selling.
At worst i would go the Vstation route. Yeah, it's work and effort to set up but we don't get paid for doing nothing so what can you do?
Realistically, the easier you do things the lesser the return so may as well do it the best you can and make a better hourly rate for your efforts.
I was just reading back a bit and noticed you said you had 5 flashes and were hoping to get away with using one. Was this just for " Action" shots?
If you are doing setups on backgrounds I'd pump a couple of lights in the back and put some colored gells on them for effect. Cellophane works great. For action shots, I'd talk to the teacher about doing the same. The kids shouldn't go completely off course by 20 Ft so there would be minimal risk with well placed lights.
I have just printed proof for 30 schools. No of pages ranges from 8 to 42.
Very near 1000 pages. I estimate that used about $26 worth of ink.
3 prints @ $15 ea and I'm covered
So Dump it and buy something like this:
The Cis systems are not expensive either.
I Haven't tested this one or know anything about it, I'm merely pointing out what to look for and giving an indication of price.
The bottom line is for around $200 bucks you can produce proofs and great quality pics and small run promo pieces for next to nothing.
If the HP is uneconomical, set yourself up with something that is.
these things now are cheap and virtually disposable so don't get hung up on brands or quality or whatever. Use the thing for the purpose, make money from it and when it dies finally, get something else.
As the CIS won't wear out but they change printer cartridges all the time, i bought 3 printers all the same. This allows me to printer pool for faster output, have a spare and when one breaks I can use the CIS on the other one even if they current models don't use that ink type.
Thinking about it, yes. I think it could hurt sales.
To me it would look just too cheap and basic. You want to motivate the parents to buy. I personally don't think this is going to cut it.
Its too far away from the finished product for parents to visualise and in reality, the lasers I have seen at least aren't great at pics anyway.
Another option could be to pre-print everything.
It sounds scary but the times i have done it the sales have been excellent.
Prints have huge markup so you can afford to do some generous packages and whatever is left over you won't be worried about.
I have done a few events like this and much to my initial doubts, it works well.
All this said, I do agree with James.
Selling on the day is where you are going to realize the most return for your efforts.
Instead of V stations you could get a few computers linked up and get some people selling the pics to the parents. Bit more expense in wages but when you break it down you would probably only have to sell 2-3 prints an hour to cover the wages so I can't see how you could go wrong.
I didn't see where ( If) you mentioned how many kids you will be shooting but the more your doing the greater your earn so the more people you can afford to put on the selling.
At worst i would go the Vstation route. Yeah, it's work and effort to set up but we don't get paid for doing nothing so what can you do?
Realistically, the easier you do things the lesser the return so may as well do it the best you can and make a better hourly rate for your efforts.
I was just reading back a bit and noticed you said you had 5 flashes and were hoping to get away with using one. Was this just for " Action" shots?
If you are doing setups on backgrounds I'd pump a couple of lights in the back and put some colored gells on them for effect. Cellophane works great. For action shots, I'd talk to the teacher about doing the same. The kids shouldn't go completely off course by 20 Ft so there would be minimal risk with well placed lights.
$26 for 1000 prints, not bad. I think my current canon machine costs $1 per page for ink, then the paper is on top of that. so probably $1000 to $2000 after its all said and done.
I wont be doing sales the day of the posed portraits, because I figure there will be between 5 and 8 minutes per student and the sales sessions will be probably 10 to 15 min each. So Ill probably get my assistant to do the sales sessions the following 2 weeks, focusing mostly on the first week during the classes.
this will give me time to go through the pictures, sort out any that dont need to be shown to the client, tweak the color/exposure a bit if needs be and show them a better set of pictures. Also Ill give them my order form/price list the week of the pictures for them to take home and be prepared for.
I think Ill put the candid pictures online heavily watermarked, and do up proof books for each class. I havent decided if Ill do printed sheets from the lab or just do laser printed ones and tel them to go to the website to see color watermarked ones. I was thinking I could print up 2 books for each class from the previous week, have those float around the waiting room for the 2 weeks that the sales sessions are going and then the 4th and final week, show up and see if anyone wants to order the candid pictures and leave order forms for those that didnt.
Im going to look into the continuous ink systems, right now im spending $50 for a set of 6 ink carts for my canon that in theory should last 60 pictures, and my ink for the hp is over $100 for the 4 carts.
And once i get more established, Ill look into the viewing stations that are networked.
Im trying to do this business with out business loans, buying things as I can. I got a long list of things I want to buy but they would just make my job easier, I can do it now with what I have fine. On that list is another new dslr *got two older ones that are used for backups* a couple lenses, tokina 11-16 and canon 70-200 2.8L, studio strobes, new computer, newer photoshop, spyder, now the cis printer adapter, just to name a few.
Oh and for the posed pictures, Ill be using 4 or 5 flashes. for the action shots itll just be one flash on camera I think.
I intended to test a shot last Monday before I left but forgot in the talking with the gym owner. To get exposures I was using iso 1600 - 1/200th and F2.8. I want to take a picture of them on the beam at the end while they support their weight on their hands with their legs spread and off the beam. I want to get the background totally black so you dont see the gym. I wonder if I were to use a flash and lower the iso to 100, and get close enough to them with my 24-70 lens, if I could get them exposured right, but get the light fall off to be totally black in the background. Then I dont hve to worry about blurring the background. Im finding that hard to do with the 24-70 F2.8 unless I get close to the subject, but I dont like going below 35mm with people subjects. Im going an hour early next monday to setup my portable background so hopefully Ill have time to try it out.
C James, do you mind sharing what sort of packages and specialty items you offer?
what does your composite collage consist of? How much more is it than your regular prints?
Sure.
We offer inidivdual Units, packages starting at 3 Units, Wall Portraits up to 16x20 (with promotional pricing), small Albums (5x5 & 8x8), 3-Image Prints in 8x10 & 10x10" (Framed) and 10x20" Custom Multi Image Collages that have 3-5 images, Name and dance motif. Oh and Social Media ready digital files. (We DO NOT sell printable digital images on any studio work.)
Just to give you an idea, our most popular package is Package #4:
Choice of (3) Three Images: (1) 8x10; (2) 5x7; (8) Wallets of Each image $99.95.
The 3-Image Prints run $45.95 for the 8x10" and $85.95 for the Framed 10x10" (and we sell more 10x10 framed than 8x10 not framed...) and the 10x20" Multi Image Collage is $129.95 for the print.
We do not prefer to sell single prints of an image as it costs US just as much to prepare and handle that order as it does a package. So the single prints are priced accordingly and are more expensive than a single print in a package.
The only true "specialty" item that we offer is a Tapestry that has a woven image of the Dancer on a 35x53" Throw Blanket that is very nice. Those sell for $199.95.
I want to get the background totally black so you dont see the gym. I wonder if I were to use a flash and lower the iso to 100, and get close enough to them with my 24-70 lens, if I could get them exposured right, but get the light fall off to be totally black in the background. Then I dont hve to worry about blurring the background. Im finding that hard to do with the 24-70 F2.8 unless I get close to the subject, but I dont like going below 35mm with people subjects. Im going an hour early next monday to setup my portable background so hopefully Ill have time to try it out.
Shutter speed...push it up to the maximum sync speed for you camera and you will get very close to making the background of your images black. Your shutter speed will not affect your exposure for a strobed image, it will only increase (slower shutter speed) your ambient light or decrease your ambient light (faster shutter speed.)
We offer inidivdual Units, packages starting at 3 Units, Wall Portraits up to 16x20 (with promotional pricing), small Albums (5x5 & 8x8), 3-Image Prints in 8x10 & 10x10" (Framed) and 10x20" Custom Multi Image Collages that have 3-5 images, Name and dance motif. Oh and Social Media ready digital files. (We DO NOT sell printable digital images on any studio work.)
Just to give you an idea, our most popular package is Package #4:
Choice of (3) Three Images: (1) 8x10; (2) 5x7; (8) Wallets of Each image $99.95.
The 3-Image Prints run $45.95 for the 8x10" and $85.95 for the Framed 10x10" (and we sell more 10x10 framed than 8x10 not framed...) and the 10x20" Multi Image Collage is $129.95 for the print.
We do not prefer to sell single prints of an image as it costs US just as much to prepare and handle that order as it does a package. So the single prints are priced accordingly and are more expensive than a single print in a package.
The only true "specialty" item that we offer is a Tapestry that has a woven image of the Dancer on a 35x53" Throw Blanket that is very nice. Those sell for $199.95.
Oh and the albums start at 205.00 for the 5x5".
Thanks for the pricing. : )
what do your 3 image prints look like?
You say your most popular is #4, 3 sheets of each image, how many images do you include in that?
Ive seen tapestries offered by walmart, but never gave them much thought. What source do you use for your tapestries?
Shutter speed...push it up to the maximum sync speed for you camera and you will get very close to making the background of your images black. Your shutter speed will not affect your exposure for a strobed image, it will only increase (slower shutter speed) your ambient light or decrease your ambient light (faster shutter speed.)
I always shoot at the sync speed unless I try to push the ambient light. unfortunately its 1/200th on my rebels and I think 1/250 on my 20d. But I estimate that the exposure will be nearly black at iso 100 & 1/200th considering i had to use iso 1600 F2.8 to get useable shots.
$26 for 1000 prints, not bad. I think my current canon machine costs $1 per page for ink, then the paper is on top of that. so probably $1000 to $2000 after its all said and done.
I have got my printing costs Ridiculously low.
I recently bought a bunch of 36" wide roll paper. I have made my own wide format cutter as an AO size is is min $400 and I'm cutting that into strips of the sizes I want ( 7" A4, and 12" for package prints) then trimming them to final Size on a smaller trimmer.
Basically the upshot is I did a deal on this paper and an A4 piece of paper is costing me about 6C apiece and it's pro canon paper. I'm producing A4's for .10C or less with the ink system.
I wont be doing sales the day of the posed portraits, because I figure there will be between 5 and 8 minutes per student and the sales sessions will be probably 10 to 15 min each. So Ill probably get my assistant to do the sales sessions the following 2 weeks, focusing mostly on the first week during the classes.
At 8 min per subject and 15 min per sales session, If you could get 2 people selling they would be able to keep up perfectly. With the first shoot they do a quick edit and start the sales on the first kid at the time you start shooting the second so you would be only one person behind.
OTOH, if you do the sales later, that is going to take a long time to get through all the sales.
Not trying to be pushy with telling you what to do, just pointing something out as food for thought.
Also Ill give them my order form/price list the week of the pictures for them to take home and be prepared for.
You could give them the pricelist the week before the shoot and have the teacher or assistant distribute them to the parents then.
I really don't think giving the actual price list is all that critical really.
As long as they know pics are going to be taken and they will need money, that should be all the preparation they need.
A t the event I did recently, we had a few people want to send cheques or rig through credit card details for orders. My wife took the orders on the understanding they wouldn't even be looked at till the payment was received. They all came in on the Tuesday, nearly $500 worth. We will make sure to offer this to those who have no money on the day in future.
Im going to look into the continuous ink systems, right now im spending $50 for a set of 6 ink carts for my canon that in theory should last 60 pictures, and my ink for the hp is over $100 for the 4 carts.
Your Lucky!
ink was costing me about $1.50 an A4 before I got onto the CISS.
When I was looking at the US ebay yesterday to post those link, I was really surprised to see the prices are virtually identical for the printers as they are here. You get the break on the ink though!
And once i get more established, Ill look into the viewing stations that are networked.
Im trying to do this business with out business loans, buying things as I can. I got a long list of things I want to buy but they would just make my job easier, I can do it now with what I have fine. On that list is another new dslr *got two older ones that are used for backups* a couple lenses, tokina 11-16 and canon 70-200 2.8L, studio strobes, new computer, newer photoshop, spyder, now the cis printer adapter, just to name a few.
I know the feeling!
I buy what is going to make me the most money the quickest that i can plough back into other things. If I have a camera and lens I can get by with, then I'll stick with them in favor of buying a printer that allows me to get better sales and profits and pay for itself straight away.
For the Vstations, You don't need exy computers. I'm using S/H machines I bought for $25 ea and 15" Lcd's I paid $35 for. As long as the boxes will run XP, your right.
A decent machine ( dosen't have to be latest and greatest) as a server will run at least 10 Vstations and you keep your main machine for editing and downloading etc.
I had a conversation with a dance school today that has me scratching my head so hopefully some one from this thread may have suggestions with my dance school quandary.
You could give them the pricelist the week before the shoot and have the teacher or assistant distribute them to the parents then.
I really don't think giving the actual price list is all that critical really.
As long as they know pics are going to be taken and they will need money, that should be all the preparation they need.
A t the event I did recently, we had a few people want to send cheques or rig through credit card details for orders. My wife took the orders on the understanding they wouldn't even be looked at till the payment was received. They all came in on the Tuesday, nearly $500 worth. We will make sure to offer this to those who have no money on the day in future.
I would have to time travel to give it to them the week before. Monday is the first set of picture. It wasn't suppose to be for a few more weeks but the gym owner decided they should be the first week and already told the parents and made plans to extend the lessons by a week so they don't get behind.
I dont really mind going back for two weeks to do the sales sessions. That means I can do the sales myself and save the hourly wage of a staff person. at this point im not working every day so I have the time to spare and the saved income doesnt hurt.
In the future Ill probably get some staff that I can trust, when I have time to figure out the employee tax and ss stuff. Right now i rarely need someone to do the sales so if I did get someone that I could trust they would probably be busy with other stuff when the time came that I needed them.
I am thinking of contacting a karate dojo and a ballet center near by about doing pictures. I would like to schedule the pictures after a month when I talk to them, to have time to advertise to the students, but at this point, if I were to talk to them tomorrow, that would put the appointment possibly the first week of December.
So my question, is mid december a bad time to do this sort of thing? What about January February? Do people have money in December for this sort of thing, im wondering because of Christmas shopping. Is there any money in January or February or should I wait till March? Those that have done this before, have you noticed a difference in average sales in Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb and March? I dont want to do this and then find out the parents are all broke cuz of Christmas.
So my question, is mid december a bad time to do this sort of thing?
First thing I'd be looking into is if they are still running classes then?
Here they are pretty much finished up for the year and don't go back till the beginning of the school year which is the start of feb.
Of course I don't know what things in your area are like, but here you would have to be incredibly lucky to pick up a school that hasn't already got their pics organised so that would be the second consideration.
Most here organised their shooters months ago so just walking in and saying we'll do them in a month would be impractically unlikely. I think you'd need to hit 100 places to get 2 that haven't got a shooter organised and then they may be real small and not worth doing anyway.
What about January February? Do people have money in December for this sort of thing, im wondering because of Christmas shopping. Is there any money in January or February or should I wait till March?
Traditionally, after Christmas, Jan-march is the slowest time in retail here because every one has maxed out the CC before hand with Christmas, holidays or both, and is trying to catch up.
The only money here is in Jan before people go back to work and school and then it's slim pickins for the next couple of months.
Those that have done this before, have you noticed a difference in average sales in Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb and March? I dont want to do this and then find out the parents are all broke cuz of Christmas.
Either things are very different where you are or you don't seem to have any clue about how these things work.
The photos are always done at the end of the year before Christmas when they have learned all their routines etc and have their end of year performances for the dance schools at least.
Never heard of any of them doing them at the beginning of the year and can't see how they would . The dance schools spend the year making costumes for the dances the kids learn throughout the year so there is no way they would have photos in feb or march.
Maybe in Canada they carry over so it's totally different in which case you'd be waiting more till the middle of the year I would expect.
First thing I'd be looking into is if they are still running classes then?
Here they are pretty much finished up for the year and don't go back till the beginning of the school year which is the start of feb.
Of course I don't know what things in your area are like, but here you would have to be incredibly lucky to pick up a school that hasn't already got their pics organised so that would be the second consideration.
Most here organised their shooters months ago so just walking in and saying we'll do them in a month would be impractically unlikely. I think you'd need to hit 100 places to get 2 that haven't got a shooter organised and then they may be real small and not worth doing anyway.
Every school here seems to be different. The ballet school that I dealt with last year goes until mid December and takes a break for a month. They have changed photographers every year until the owners friend took an interest in photography. The students were mostly elementary school kids, doing it just for something fun to do after school.
The gymnastics school I just worked with also goes until a couple weeks before Christmas. This one I got just by walking in and talking to them. I had a friend with a girl in their class and they didn't believe they ever done pictures before. The kids are mostly doing it for something fun to do after school and are there one day a week.
The gymnastics school that I have a day scheduled for later is one that does meets and competitions and the kids seem to go 3 days a week and are there for hours at a time. Problem is I have it scheduled on a non class day, the last one I did them during classes so the kids were already there. The people are slowly signing up but theres only a few so far. This one goes year round with a break for Christmas for a couple of weeks.
So far my experience is you dont need to wait till the end of the class year, there is a list of about 15 poses that I do with each kid, some are more advanced but most can do the first 10. In the 3 places ive done pictures for they have already bought their leotard or just wore shorts/top.
So far I have not dealt with gyms that are seriously professional. Most of the places around here do it for something to give the kids exercise and the parents are still buying stuff, some are spending some pretty good money by my standards *lower than the people in nyc and dc, I know*
Traditionally, after Christmas, Jan-march is the slowest time in retail here because every one has maxed out the CC before hand with Christmas, holidays or both, and is trying to catch up.
The only money here is in Jan before people go back to work and school and then it's slim pickins for the next couple of months.
Either things are very different where you are or you don't seem to have any clue about how these things work.
The photos are always done at the end of the year before Christmas when they have learned all their routines etc and have their end of year performances for the dance schools at least.
Never heard of any of them doing them at the beginning of the year and can't see how they would . The dance schools spend the year making costumes for the dances the kids learn throughout the year so there is no way they would have photos in feb or march.
Maybe in Canada they carry over so it's totally different in which case you'd be waiting more till the middle of the year I would expect.
I have a clue how things worked, I've worked in retail before and after Christmas at a couple different places before doing photography, and I've seen how quiet things are in January. But I thought I would double check to find out if this applied to gymnastic/ballet posed portraits as well. I assumed it did, but you know what they say about assuming.
There are a few other places that I haven't talked to yet, but I am hoping to be able to do pictures for them. I just wanted to know if I should try to schedule them in December if its possible or to wait till March, or if Jan would be worth while. I guess if they cant do it in December, I should try to schedule it for the first of March.
There ya go, things are different in Canada and I stand corrected.
Don't be afraid to put in some high end, all inclusive packages in your offerings.
Everyone always talks lowest price but with any of this type of thing or T&I work, I always put in a low price start package to appease the club committees ( who only look at the low figure) and then put in some some middle and a high end pack.
I always get a worthwhile number of people taking the big package and given it's 5-6 times more than the entry level coverage, you don't need a lot of them to really bump your average sale up quite nicely.
Extras like mag covers and bordered prints always go quite nicely too as extras which you can also get good money for.
Let us know how it works out and good luck with it.
I read this thread a while ago and offered the magazine cover and that was pretty popular. Im going to try it next time and increase the price a bit and see how it goes.
I offered higher end things like wall prints and canvas prints but no one was interested in that. I offered digital files, but again no interest or no interest after they seen the price tag.
Comments
Ill be talking to the gym owner on Monday to get more details.
Just noticed your signature, you got two 70-200's? one IS and the other not?
PM'ed about the two 70-200's...
Would you recommend me to treat this as two separate sales events? Or as one large sales event after the candid pictures are done?
I was thinking if I treated this as two separate transactions, we could do a sales session after each posed portrait when there is time *seems like its going to be assembly line, 5 min each for the boys, bit more time for the other classes because there are less kids in those* so hopefully I can do 5 different poses in 5 min and send the card to my helper while I do the next one. I did pretty well last year offering only sheets of pictures, if I were to offer digital files I may be cutting my profits down.
For the candid / action shots I was going to offer both digital and prints with heavily watermarked very low res pics online for them to choose thier numbers from if they dont want to wait for a sales session in the gym.
But do you think the parents would mind this?
Lance.
Because of having to do all the posed shots in one class, and there being up to 12 students in each hour class, each session will be about 5 minutes long, so I think Ill have the picture viewing on another day, and give them information on my packages and options the day of the pictures. That way when they come back to look at the pictures, they will be prepared.
Im going to have about a thousand pictures I estimate from the 8 classes over two weeks. I think the best way to have them review the pics and place an order would be online, I would like to do it another way but I dont see a way around it. the pictures will be heavily watermarked and they wont be reduced in opacity that much. : ) I may flag some pics when going through them that I think stand out above the rest and put them into the posed folders for the picture viewing.
I would go for classes.
If I read right and you are saying there is only 12 kids in each class, that's nothing. For the events i do I can have 50 people in one section and that's as far as I can break it down. No one ever complains.
I have a thing with password protecting galleries.
I think it's a load of Rubbish.
To me it is putting an obstacle in the way of sales and catering to the neurotics that think there is a boogey man just waiting to prey on their child at every opportunity.
If you HAVE to use a password I would put the question on the log in page and make the password as painfully obvious as possible.
For showing the pictures, have you considered doing proof sheets instead of or as well as the online thing?
makes me wish I had a bulk ink system.
I do like this idea though, of somehow getting the proofs in front of the parents. at least I could do it on my laser printer, do you think it being monochrome would hurt the sales?
If at ALL possible, sell at the time the images are taken!! I can't impress this enough. As someone that has done this several years for over 1300 dancer each year, you will never get the sales you want on-line compared to selling the day the images are taken. Parents are procrastinators and no matter the images, they will always put off today what can be done tomorrow...Been there and done that.
We sell the day of the shoot. We use tethered cameras and everything is run through LR and on to a central server. The girls up front then take the order after the session is completed, as the Parent has a form that contains the number of the images from their child. We shoot ONE full-length image and one close up PER COSTUME (additional will cost you...) We average 6 sets of images per child. When the session for each child is complete, the girls up front take the form, quickly bring up the images for that child in Pro Select and ask the Parent which images they want to order and what package(s)/Products they want. Average time is about 12 minutes per parent and then they are passed off to my clerk who takes their money. We can do an average studio of about 180 dancers in two days with the dancers spread out over an 8 hour day.
If a mom is indecisive and can't make her mind up, we allow here to go home and come back before the end of the studio's shoot and place her order. (We only have 1-2 Mom's to complain and that are indecisive...and these are always the ones with a problem child/children that she brought along and she can't keep under control while in the studio.)
This year our dance studios are complete and already delivered NO later than 1 month after completion. We averaged 200.00 per child on sales for the year, thou not all dancers that take the photos buy...
Some mom's will come back a few months after the shoot and want to buy and will end up paying the late fee...25.00 and then order prints. Not many, but they have plenty of warning to come prepared to order. Most of the studios I know don't even allow mom's in the room, or to preview and order as we do...it is plain and simple, fill out the form, orde the package you want with the costume you want and put your payment in the envelope.
We find that we increase our sales tremendously when we preview and have the opportunity to push specialty items like multi-image prints and collages.
I know this won't work for all, but the principle behind it will...SELL BEFORE the child is gone from the session. You will alway make more from pre-selling/selling at the moment of creation than you ever will by placing them on line, in a proof book or other method of selling on speculation.
Another suggestion is to limit the number of images the parent has to choose from...get a good pose in that costume and move to the next kid. We tried the multiple images per child and it was a huge disaster...can you say I N D E C I S I V E?? "Well...her hand is more pointed in that one...no wait, lets see that other one again.." One and done...we have a 42" flat screen that the image just taken pops up on and the mom says yes or no...and we are on to the next shot or child. Make is easy for the mom's to choose, easy to spend money and get it when you have completed the work and you will find your gross much higher than selling on-line or at a later date.
We use this principle for most every School/School Sports team, Prom, Dance and event with very good success. The parent/child wants the photo, but they don't want to have to "extert and effort" (on their part) to get.
what does your composite collage consist of? How much more is it than your regular prints?
I have just printed proof for 30 schools. No of pages ranges from 8 to 42.
Very near 1000 pages. I estimate that used about $26 worth of ink.
3 prints @ $15 ea and I'm covered
So Dump it and buy something like this:
The Cis systems are not expensive either.
I Haven't tested this one or know anything about it, I'm merely pointing out what to look for and giving an indication of price.
The bottom line is for around $200 bucks you can produce proofs and great quality pics and small run promo pieces for next to nothing.
If the HP is uneconomical, set yourself up with something that is.
these things now are cheap and virtually disposable so don't get hung up on brands or quality or whatever. Use the thing for the purpose, make money from it and when it dies finally, get something else.
As the CIS won't wear out but they change printer cartridges all the time, i bought 3 printers all the same. This allows me to printer pool for faster output, have a spare and when one breaks I can use the CIS on the other one even if they current models don't use that ink type.
Thinking about it, yes. I think it could hurt sales.
To me it would look just too cheap and basic. You want to motivate the parents to buy. I personally don't think this is going to cut it.
Its too far away from the finished product for parents to visualise and in reality, the lasers I have seen at least aren't great at pics anyway.
Another option could be to pre-print everything.
It sounds scary but the times i have done it the sales have been excellent.
Prints have huge markup so you can afford to do some generous packages and whatever is left over you won't be worried about.
I have done a few events like this and much to my initial doubts, it works well.
All this said, I do agree with James.
Selling on the day is where you are going to realize the most return for your efforts.
Instead of V stations you could get a few computers linked up and get some people selling the pics to the parents. Bit more expense in wages but when you break it down you would probably only have to sell 2-3 prints an hour to cover the wages so I can't see how you could go wrong.
I didn't see where ( If) you mentioned how many kids you will be shooting but the more your doing the greater your earn so the more people you can afford to put on the selling.
At worst i would go the Vstation route. Yeah, it's work and effort to set up but we don't get paid for doing nothing so what can you do?
Realistically, the easier you do things the lesser the return so may as well do it the best you can and make a better hourly rate for your efforts.
I was just reading back a bit and noticed you said you had 5 flashes and were hoping to get away with using one. Was this just for " Action" shots?
If you are doing setups on backgrounds I'd pump a couple of lights in the back and put some colored gells on them for effect. Cellophane works great. For action shots, I'd talk to the teacher about doing the same. The kids shouldn't go completely off course by 20 Ft so there would be minimal risk with well placed lights.
$26 for 1000 prints, not bad. I think my current canon machine costs $1 per page for ink, then the paper is on top of that. so probably $1000 to $2000 after its all said and done.
I wont be doing sales the day of the posed portraits, because I figure there will be between 5 and 8 minutes per student and the sales sessions will be probably 10 to 15 min each. So Ill probably get my assistant to do the sales sessions the following 2 weeks, focusing mostly on the first week during the classes.
this will give me time to go through the pictures, sort out any that dont need to be shown to the client, tweak the color/exposure a bit if needs be and show them a better set of pictures. Also Ill give them my order form/price list the week of the pictures for them to take home and be prepared for.
I think Ill put the candid pictures online heavily watermarked, and do up proof books for each class. I havent decided if Ill do printed sheets from the lab or just do laser printed ones and tel them to go to the website to see color watermarked ones. I was thinking I could print up 2 books for each class from the previous week, have those float around the waiting room for the 2 weeks that the sales sessions are going and then the 4th and final week, show up and see if anyone wants to order the candid pictures and leave order forms for those that didnt.
Im going to look into the continuous ink systems, right now im spending $50 for a set of 6 ink carts for my canon that in theory should last 60 pictures, and my ink for the hp is over $100 for the 4 carts.
And once i get more established, Ill look into the viewing stations that are networked.
Im trying to do this business with out business loans, buying things as I can. I got a long list of things I want to buy but they would just make my job easier, I can do it now with what I have fine. On that list is another new dslr *got two older ones that are used for backups* a couple lenses, tokina 11-16 and canon 70-200 2.8L, studio strobes, new computer, newer photoshop, spyder, now the cis printer adapter, just to name a few.
Oh and for the posed pictures, Ill be using 4 or 5 flashes. for the action shots itll just be one flash on camera I think.
I intended to test a shot last Monday before I left but forgot in the talking with the gym owner. To get exposures I was using iso 1600 - 1/200th and F2.8. I want to take a picture of them on the beam at the end while they support their weight on their hands with their legs spread and off the beam. I want to get the background totally black so you dont see the gym. I wonder if I were to use a flash and lower the iso to 100, and get close enough to them with my 24-70 lens, if I could get them exposured right, but get the light fall off to be totally black in the background. Then I dont hve to worry about blurring the background. Im finding that hard to do with the 24-70 F2.8 unless I get close to the subject, but I dont like going below 35mm with people subjects. Im going an hour early next monday to setup my portable background so hopefully Ill have time to try it out.
Sure.
We offer inidivdual Units, packages starting at 3 Units, Wall Portraits up to 16x20 (with promotional pricing), small Albums (5x5 & 8x8), 3-Image Prints in 8x10 & 10x10" (Framed) and 10x20" Custom Multi Image Collages that have 3-5 images, Name and dance motif. Oh and Social Media ready digital files. (We DO NOT sell printable digital images on any studio work.)
Just to give you an idea, our most popular package is Package #4:
Choice of (3) Three Images: (1) 8x10; (2) 5x7; (8) Wallets of Each image $99.95.
The 3-Image Prints run $45.95 for the 8x10" and $85.95 for the Framed 10x10" (and we sell more 10x10 framed than 8x10 not framed...) and the 10x20" Multi Image Collage is $129.95 for the print.
We do not prefer to sell single prints of an image as it costs US just as much to prepare and handle that order as it does a package. So the single prints are priced accordingly and are more expensive than a single print in a package.
The only true "specialty" item that we offer is a Tapestry that has a woven image of the Dancer on a 35x53" Throw Blanket that is very nice. Those sell for $199.95.
Oh and the albums start at 205.00 for the 5x5".
Shutter speed...push it up to the maximum sync speed for you camera and you will get very close to making the background of your images black. Your shutter speed will not affect your exposure for a strobed image, it will only increase (slower shutter speed) your ambient light or decrease your ambient light (faster shutter speed.)
Thanks for the pricing. : )
what do your 3 image prints look like?
You say your most popular is #4, 3 sheets of each image, how many images do you include in that?
Ive seen tapestries offered by walmart, but never gave them much thought. What source do you use for your tapestries?
I always shoot at the sync speed unless I try to push the ambient light. unfortunately its 1/200th on my rebels and I think 1/250 on my 20d. But I estimate that the exposure will be nearly black at iso 100 & 1/200th considering i had to use iso 1600 F2.8 to get useable shots.
I have got my printing costs Ridiculously low.
I recently bought a bunch of 36" wide roll paper. I have made my own wide format cutter as an AO size is is min $400 and I'm cutting that into strips of the sizes I want ( 7" A4, and 12" for package prints) then trimming them to final Size on a smaller trimmer.
Basically the upshot is I did a deal on this paper and an A4 piece of paper is costing me about 6C apiece and it's pro canon paper. I'm producing A4's for .10C or less with the ink system.
At 8 min per subject and 15 min per sales session, If you could get 2 people selling they would be able to keep up perfectly. With the first shoot they do a quick edit and start the sales on the first kid at the time you start shooting the second so you would be only one person behind.
OTOH, if you do the sales later, that is going to take a long time to get through all the sales.
Not trying to be pushy with telling you what to do, just pointing something out as food for thought.
You could give them the pricelist the week before the shoot and have the teacher or assistant distribute them to the parents then.
I really don't think giving the actual price list is all that critical really.
As long as they know pics are going to be taken and they will need money, that should be all the preparation they need.
A t the event I did recently, we had a few people want to send cheques or rig through credit card details for orders. My wife took the orders on the understanding they wouldn't even be looked at till the payment was received. They all came in on the Tuesday, nearly $500 worth. We will make sure to offer this to those who have no money on the day in future.
Your Lucky!
ink was costing me about $1.50 an A4 before I got onto the CISS.
When I was looking at the US ebay yesterday to post those link, I was really surprised to see the prices are virtually identical for the printers as they are here. You get the break on the ink though!
I know the feeling!
I buy what is going to make me the most money the quickest that i can plough back into other things. If I have a camera and lens I can get by with, then I'll stick with them in favor of buying a printer that allows me to get better sales and profits and pay for itself straight away.
For the Vstations, You don't need exy computers. I'm using S/H machines I bought for $25 ea and 15" Lcd's I paid $35 for. As long as the boxes will run XP, your right.
A decent machine ( dosen't have to be latest and greatest) as a server will run at least 10 Vstations and you keep your main machine for editing and downloading etc.
I had a conversation with a dance school today that has me scratching my head so hopefully some one from this thread may have suggestions with my dance school quandary.
I would have to time travel to give it to them the week before.
I dont really mind going back for two weeks to do the sales sessions. That means I can do the sales myself and save the hourly wage of a staff person. at this point im not working every day so I have the time to spare and the saved income doesnt hurt.
In the future Ill probably get some staff that I can trust, when I have time to figure out the employee tax and ss stuff. Right now i rarely need someone to do the sales so if I did get someone that I could trust they would probably be busy with other stuff when the time came that I needed them.
So my question, is mid december a bad time to do this sort of thing? What about January February? Do people have money in December for this sort of thing, im wondering because of Christmas shopping. Is there any money in January or February or should I wait till March? Those that have done this before, have you noticed a difference in average sales in Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb and March? I dont want to do this and then find out the parents are all broke cuz of Christmas.
First thing I'd be looking into is if they are still running classes then?
Here they are pretty much finished up for the year and don't go back till the beginning of the school year which is the start of feb.
Of course I don't know what things in your area are like, but here you would have to be incredibly lucky to pick up a school that hasn't already got their pics organised so that would be the second consideration.
Most here organised their shooters months ago so just walking in and saying we'll do them in a month would be impractically unlikely. I think you'd need to hit 100 places to get 2 that haven't got a shooter organised and then they may be real small and not worth doing anyway.
Traditionally, after Christmas, Jan-march is the slowest time in retail here because every one has maxed out the CC before hand with Christmas, holidays or both, and is trying to catch up.
The only money here is in Jan before people go back to work and school and then it's slim pickins for the next couple of months.
Either things are very different where you are or you don't seem to have any clue about how these things work.
The photos are always done at the end of the year before Christmas when they have learned all their routines etc and have their end of year performances for the dance schools at least.
Never heard of any of them doing them at the beginning of the year and can't see how they would . The dance schools spend the year making costumes for the dances the kids learn throughout the year so there is no way they would have photos in feb or march.
Maybe in Canada they carry over so it's totally different in which case you'd be waiting more till the middle of the year I would expect.
Every school here seems to be different. The ballet school that I dealt with last year goes until mid December and takes a break for a month. They have changed photographers every year until the owners friend took an interest in photography. The students were mostly elementary school kids, doing it just for something fun to do after school.
The gymnastics school I just worked with also goes until a couple weeks before Christmas. This one I got just by walking in and talking to them. I had a friend with a girl in their class and they didn't believe they ever done pictures before. The kids are mostly doing it for something fun to do after school and are there one day a week.
The gymnastics school that I have a day scheduled for later is one that does meets and competitions and the kids seem to go 3 days a week and are there for hours at a time. Problem is I have it scheduled on a non class day, the last one I did them during classes so the kids were already there. The people are slowly signing up but theres only a few so far. This one goes year round with a break for Christmas for a couple of weeks.
So far my experience is you dont need to wait till the end of the class year, there is a list of about 15 poses that I do with each kid, some are more advanced but most can do the first 10. In the 3 places ive done pictures for they have already bought their leotard or just wore shorts/top.
So far I have not dealt with gyms that are seriously professional. Most of the places around here do it for something to give the kids exercise and the parents are still buying stuff, some are spending some pretty good money by my standards *lower than the people in nyc and dc, I know*
I have a clue how things worked, I've worked in retail before and after Christmas at a couple different places before doing photography, and I've seen how quiet things are in January. But I thought I would double check to find out if this applied to gymnastic/ballet posed portraits as well. I assumed it did, but you know what they say about assuming.
There are a few other places that I haven't talked to yet, but I am hoping to be able to do pictures for them. I just wanted to know if I should try to schedule them in December if its possible or to wait till March, or if Jan would be worth while. I guess if they cant do it in December, I should try to schedule it for the first of March.
Don't be afraid to put in some high end, all inclusive packages in your offerings.
Everyone always talks lowest price but with any of this type of thing or T&I work, I always put in a low price start package to appease the club committees ( who only look at the low figure) and then put in some some middle and a high end pack.
I always get a worthwhile number of people taking the big package and given it's 5-6 times more than the entry level coverage, you don't need a lot of them to really bump your average sale up quite nicely.
Extras like mag covers and bordered prints always go quite nicely too as extras which you can also get good money for.
Let us know how it works out and good luck with it.
I offered higher end things like wall prints and canvas prints but no one was interested in that. I offered digital files, but again no interest or no interest after they seen the price tag.