How to Handle Bad Eyes on a Gorgeous Woman?

sara505 · November 19, 2010

The other day I had a family shoot with a very handsome family. The woman is stunningly and exotically beautiful, but her eyes did not fare well in the shoot. We were outdoors, late afternoon, overcast day. I did use fill flash, and the father and two kids turned out fine, but the woman, whose eyes are a bit bulgy with puffy-ness below, has turned up with rather bad dark circles.

I feel terrible about this. I will most certainly touch up their final choices for the wall-hangers/Christmas card, but do not feel obligated to correct the 40 or so (out of 200) that are in their proofing gallery.

In the meantime, I am hesitating sending the link to their photos. I don't want to embarrass the woman.

On the other hand, I suspect this is not the first time she will have seen these circles under her eyes.

At what point do we let it go and say "I did the best I could under the circumstances."

And how do I broach the subject of her eyes without calling even more attention to the issue and making her feel bad?

Do I mention it at all?

I was thinking of saying something along the lines of, "In certain lighting conditions, such as we had on Sunday, people with pronounced eyes end up with more shadow than usual. When you've chosen your final images, I will correct this, if you'd like."

Otherwise the shots are great.

How would others handle this sensitive subject?

Thank you.

zoomer · November 19, 2010

Probably easily fixed, impossible to advise without some samples.

sara505 · November 19, 2010

zoomer wrote: »

Probably easily fixed, impossible to advise without some samples.

Hi, Zoomer, thanks - I don't need to know how to fix, I'm wondering how people handle the sensitive subject of touch-ups without hurting people's feelings.

kdog · November 19, 2010

sara505 wrote: »

Hi, Zoomer, thanks - I don't need to know how to fix, I'm wondering how people handle the sensitive subject of touch-ups without hurting people's feelings.

In my limited experience people LOVE touchups, the more the better it seems. Just do 'em, and they'll love 'em. Sometimes they don't even look like the same person any more, and the client LOVES them. I think everybody wants to look like someone else.

Men too. I just had a male musician ask me for more skin touch-ups on a shoot I did for him. But nobody has ever complained about too much touch-up. It seems that concept doesn't exist.

Icebear · November 19, 2010

Sara,
My rule on touch-ups is that I don't let them see how bad they initially looked. I may not do a complete retouch on a proof, so's not to waste too much time, but I'm not comfortable with the implication that "you were ugly but I made you pretty."

AND, I never point out what I've done. I delivered a portrait last night. The woman looked at it for maybe 10 seconds without saying anything. Then she looked up at me and sad, "Ohhh, I look wonderful." That's what I want!

If you provide small proofs, they'll probably concentrate on the pose and not on the details. Too big, and they'll be criticising themselves, and your later touch-ups will be obvious.

zoomer · November 19, 2010

People may tell you them love them. If they don't buy them....or the real test...if they don't show up on their facebook page....then they really didn't.
Just like you don't want to ask them or tell them the problem because it is awkward some people wont to tell you they don't like them because it is just as awkward.

Without examples it is tough to advise....but being honest is always the best for me.
I matter of factly without any drama ask them if they want me to brighten or clear up any problem areas.

Ex: Hi Sarah, I am getting into the final processing on your photos and wanted to get your input on the level of touch up you would like me to do on any photos where there are dark eye shadows.

Just don't ask here where any one else is involved or will hear the conversation...she knows she has puffy dark eyes.
From my experience I would say she will say absolutely fix them. Problems like this are one of the reasons people hire professionals.

sara505 · November 19, 2010

zoomer wrote: »

People may tell you them love them. If they don't buy them....or the real test...if they don't show up on their facebook page....then they really didn't.
Just like you don't want to ask them or tell them the problem because it is awkward some people wont to tell you they don't like them because it is just as awkward.

Without examples it is tough to advise....but being honest is always the best for me.
I matter of factly without any drama ask them if they want me to brighten or clear up any problem areas.

Ex: Hi Sarah, I am getting into the final processing on your photos and wanted to get your input on the level of touch up you would like me to do on any photos where there are dark eye shadows.

Just don't ask here where any one else is involved or will hear the conversation...she knows she has puffy dark eyes.
From my experience I would say she will say absolutely fix them. Problems like this are one of the reasons people hire professionals.

These are helpful responses.

I'm sorry that I don't feel comfortable posting images of customers, so have not included an image with this post, which I know would have been helpful.

I did send the link, and included this in my message to her:

 "I also want to mention that in certain lighting conditions, such as we had on Sunday, people with pronounced (exotic and beautiful!) eyes end up with more shadow than usual. When you've chosen your final image for your wall and Christmas card, I will correct this, if you'd like."

Ideally, I would have corrected them all (as mentioned, around 40) and spared her the reality. This was not a realistic option, imo.

Flyinggina · November 19, 2010

Sara,

For bags under the eyes, do a touch up on a separate layer then dial some of the original back in. But do something so that she looks the way you saw here. Camera's are really literal and can bring out every flaw in a detail that our eyes don't even see. You won't insult her by adjusting a bit so long as she still looks like the stunning woman you saw with your eyes.

And, I have found it to be true, that most people are thrilled with a good photo of themselves even when they know some touchup has been done. Only person I have ever had resist any touchup to his photos is my son.

Good luck.

Virginia

sara505 · November 19, 2010

Flyinggina wrote: »

Sara,

For bags under the eyes, do a touch up on a separate layer then dial some of the original back in. But do something so that she looks the way you saw here. Camera's are really literal and can bring out every flaw in a detail that our eyes don't even see. You won't insult her by adjusting a bit so long as she still looks like the stunning woman you saw with your eyes.

And, I have found it to be true, that most people are thrilled with a good photo of themselves even when they know some touchup has been done. Only person I have ever had resist any touchup to his photos is my son.

Good luck.

Virginia

Thank you, Virginia.
There's no doubt that the photos that include the mom will need to be touched up.
I struggled with how real to be with her, considering they really wanted the pics asap so they could get started on their Christmas photo/card. And since I don't have time, nor am I willing to correct all of the photos with her in them - but absolutely will correct whatever images she chooses - I had to make the choice to be honest and (hopefully) tactful in this situation. I have a feeling she already knows about her eye issue and that she will appreciate my honesty.
I agree, the touch-ups can't look fake, that the challenge is to fix the problem, but stay within the realm of reality. Otherwise, the message is, "you don't look okay the way you really are."
I think this is a very delicate subject.
On the other hand, I do tend to over-think almost everything.

l.k.madison · November 19, 2010

I might be one of the few that do this, but I edit EVERY photo to the absolute best it can be before it goes on any gallery - especially with adults. I treat every picture in a gallery ready to be printed, regardless of how long it took to edit.

In my experience, people are more than willing to share their galleries with everybody and anybody they know - even the land of Facebook - and I want them to look their best and my work to show.

I recently did an engagement shoot for a distant cousin in her late 30s and during the shoot, I noticed the *perfect* light on her face so I got a few inches from her face, threw the aperture wide open and clicked. Her entire face filled the frame. She knew how close I was, and she joked saying "You better give that some love when you edit!" - of course I was going to give it some love!! I smoothed out her face, erased a few wrinkles, added a bit of glow and it's now one of her favorite pictures.

I've had sick infants during Christmas shoots that got editing love (especially under the eyes where it really shows they don't feel well) and I've had to seriously erase splotchiness off newborns, too.

Maybe it's just me, but no picture of mine has my name on it unless I'm proud to have my name on it. Granted, even as recent as a month later, I think "What was I thinking? That shot sucks" but at the time I loved it and that's all that mattered.

Even doing a shoot for my best friend, she said "You made me look like a SWAN!! How did you do that!?!" - because I edit, and I make you more beautiful than you already are, that's how.

kdog · November 19, 2010

l.k.madison wrote: »

I might be one of the few that do this, but I edit EVERY photo to the absolute best it can be before it goes on any gallery - especially with adults. I treat every picture in a gallery ready to be printed, regardless of how long it took to edit.

I'm guessing you don't create proofs galleries then? I tend to make all my acceptable shots available to the client to pick through. Then I touch up the ones they want to use. I might have hundreds of proofs. I figured most photogs would do this. Maybe you're commanding a high enough price to edit the entire shoot. I know I'm not.

divamum · November 19, 2010

In a small batch of proofs - ie under 30 - I'll usually do some basic touching up beyond processing before posting the proofs.

In a large batch - ie my full (performer) headshot session of 150-200 shots for the client to choose from (out of usually several hundred taken) - I process and crop, but will pick one or two and work those up to show the client what a "fully finished" shot looks like, and then wait until they've made their picks to do any others.

My packages include "X number of fully retouched, ready-to-print images" but I don't want to put that much work into shots they don't choose, so I do wait until they've picked before I do the full whammy on them.

Speaking personally regarding dark circles... I have really bad hereditary dark, baggy circles (they started when I was about 16 and have only gotten worse over the years!) which defy most makeup products, even when the pros do it. I can't STAND photos of me where they look even worse than I perceive them in real life, so if my lighting hasn't burned them out for me, the patch tool is my best friend! I patch on a separate layer and then reduce the opacity until it masks the worst of the circles but is still natural. My goal is to make it look like a good makeup job rather than obvious retouching. I apply the same technique to client shots that need it - quick and easy.

sara505 · November 19, 2010

kdog wrote: »

I'm guessing you don't create proofs galleries then? I tend to make all my acceptable shots available to the client to pick through. Then I touch up the ones they want to use. I might have hundreds of proofs. I figured most photogs would do this. Maybe you're commanding a high enough price to edit the entire shoot. I know I'm not.

My thoughts, exactly.

But always interesting to hear what others do.

l.k.madison · November 19, 2010

kdog wrote: »

I'm guessing you don't create proofs galleries then? I tend to make all my acceptable shots available to the client to pick through. Then I touch up the ones they want to use. I might have hundreds of proofs. I figured most photogs would do this. Maybe you're commanding a high enough price to edit the entire shoot. I know I'm not.

I have online proof galleries that go up when I'm done with the pictures - I've never taken longer than two weeks on a portrait gallery (I had three shoots over the course of two weeks) and about five weeks on a wedding (I was out of two the two weeks immediately after). I've had galleries up within 48 hours of the shoot - on the rare occasion by husband and my son didn't demand every second of my attention so I can get them done. Some people need more work than others.

I don't have enough clients for it to be a problem yet, I actually don't mind the editing - but I have a sneaky suspicion that I'm one of the few that don't. To me it's *almost* as fun as the shoot itself, especially when I can pull something amazing out of an accident.

I'm a visual person, I like to *see* what I'm going to be paying for before I buy it - I despise online shopping for that one reason, I want to touch, feel, see what I'm about to drop my hard earned money on before it leaves my wallet. I treat every client like I'd like to be treated - what you see is what you get. Of course, there's a rare occasion when they'd like one b/w that was only offered in color - or they'd like a different orientation than what I originally offered, but that doesn't happen too often.

Maybe my reason for it all is that this *is* my day job, so I have time to edit the shots the way I want them to appear on paper/canvas.

Come to think of it, only *once* has a client noticed I changed a picture between gallery and canvas - I touched up her eyeliner on a close up of her face and she noticed. I wasn't about to let the slight mess up of her eyeliner be the first thing people saw on a metallic canvas of her and her daughter. She loved it though, so that's all that matters.

zoomer · November 19, 2010

I would also never show anyone a "proof". I never display or show anyone a photo until it is the best it will/can be.

I usually deliver 80-120 pictures and spend about 2-4 hours total in processing, depending on the skin and how much processing is required.

Sara I am curious...what kind of response did you get from your client?

kdog · November 19, 2010

That's very impressive, l.k., and zoomer. I guess that's the difference between the pros, and hacks like me.

I'm guessing you guys have very efficient workflows, and of course your experience pays off. 120 final edits in 4 hours seems really fast. This is a digression, but are you using LR? Also, I would imagine a fast computer really helps as well, especially on the newer high-res and full frame cameras. My computer is only a year old, has 6 GB of RAM, but still comes to a crawl when using layers on my 5DMKII files.

sara505 · November 19, 2010

zoomer wrote: »

I would also never show anyone a "proof". I never display or show anyone a photo until it is the best it will/can be.

I usually deliver 80-120 pictures and spend about 2-4 hours total in processing, depending on the skin and how much processing is required.

Sara I am curious...what kind of response did you get from your client?

I haven't heard from her, and, looking at my statcounter, I don't think she's seen them yet.

I will let you know, though.

In response to the above posts, I do a pretty decent job of selecting and processing for my proof gallery - I don't post trash, though I do post enough images from group shots so that there are choices in case we need to do a little body-snatching. Most of my proofs are fine enough to use as a finished product, though, without excessive processing.

As for spending two days editing, I would have to charge a million dollars to make the shoot profitable.

I too am not going to spend hours on corrections without knowing which images the customer wants.

The idea of posting one corrected image as an example is a good one. I may still do this and add it to the gallery.

zoomer · November 19, 2010

Sara sounds like you are on the right track. Would love to hear back when you get a response from her, just curious

.
Sounds like from your further explanation that you are doing some processing to the proofs just not the fine detail which must take quite a bit longer.

kdog I process at the rate of 100+ pics an hour in lightroom. Any closeups that need skin work are finished in Photoshop in 3-5 minutes usually. Does not take long, never use any layers.

I believe most people use the proof process as described by Sara to good effect. I just like to finish them and be done, so I can go onto the next thing.

divamum · November 19, 2010

l.k.madison wrote: »

I don't have enough clients for it to be a problem yet, I actually don't mind the editing - but I have a sneaky suspicion that I'm one of the few that don't. To me it's *almost* as fun as the shoot itself, especially when I can pull something amazing out of an accident.

Actually, that's me too.

And it's been worth it for me - some of my 'best" shots were actually ones that only even made the cut because I tweak, crop, twist and play even in the initial culling session.

I know when we had that discussion about how long to spend processing and people were aghast at how much time I spend on my final edits (you know who you are

<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/rolleyes1.gif" border="0" alt="" >), I realised that part of the reason I spend so much time on them is I actually enjoy it. I hate culling and processing - bleah... computer intensive, computer crashy and basically pretty boring - but really working up a final shot I find rather satisfying.

I suspect if I had 5 shoots a week I might not feel like that, but as it stands, it works for me for now <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/thumb.gif" border="0" alt="" >

Also, as far as "proofs", I think it depends on the market you're in. All the pro (ie fulltime) headshot photographers I know definitely do it as proofs>client picks>retouching after selections made - it seems to be standard practice, presumably because of the large number of shots which are shown to the client as choices, and - at least in comparison to weddings - the relatively low price (eg middle-tier headshots hot in NYC = $400-600 for ~200+ proofs to choose from)

sara505 · November 19, 2010

divamum wrote: »

Actually, that's me too. And it's been worth it for me - some of my 'best" shots were actually ones that only even made the cut because I tweak, crop, twist and play even in the initial culling session.

I know when we had that discussion about how long to spend processing and people were aghast at how much time I spend on my final edits (you know who you are <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/rolleyes1.gif" border="0" alt="" >), I realised that part of the reason I spend so much time on them is I actually enjoy it. I hate culling and processing - bleah... computer intensive, computer crashy and basically pretty boring - but really working up a final shot I find rather satisfying.

I suspect if I had 5 shoots a week I might not feel like that, but as it stands, it works for me for now <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/thumb.gif" border="0" alt="" >

Also, as far as "proofs", I think it depends on the market you're in. All the pro (ie fulltime) headshot photographers I know definitely do it as proofs>client picks>retouching after selections made - it seems to be standard practice, presumably because of the large number of shots which are shown to the client as choices, and - at least in comparison to weddings - the relatively low price (eg middle-tier headshots hot in NYC = $400-600 for ~200+ proofs to choose from)

Once upon a time I relied more on pp. These days, I've gotten much better at shooting so there's less salvage work to do in pp. And I've pretty much got my LR flow down pretty well (my biggest problem is, I dilly-dally - the curse of the free-lancer).

I don't mind working over a shot, but not when we're talking about 200+ images for a family shoot, or 1,500 for a wedding.

And I guess, since my client hasn't seen the gallery yet, it's not too late to add one corrected sample.

sara505 · November 19, 2010

"Sounds like from your further explanation that you are doing some processing to the proofs.."

Here's my flow:
1. Flag the keepers
2. Create a Collection
3. Process for WB, exposure, tone curve - occasional cropping - make the image look as good as possible without heroic efforts; and even though it's a proof gallery, I do have to be proud of the image in order to post it - hence my dilemma Re today's eyes.
4. Post to gallery.
5. Create a second collection, approx half the original collection (with virtual copies) to be converted into BW.
6. Apply my basic bw pre-set, quickly tweak any exposures that need it.
7. Post to a second, BW gallery.

I could probably process a family shoot (2-300 files) in two hours (if I didn't dilly-dally).

divamum · November 19, 2010

I definitely find (thank goodness!) that I use pp less to "salvage" shots than I did when I first started, and more because I want to do something artistic and/or am getting interested in the best skin retouching I can do; while I use some skin actions and programs, I find I'm generally happier with the results when I do it "manually", and since few of my subjects are 20-somethings with perfect skin and bone structures, they sometimes take a bit more work to bring out their inherent beauty. Since my market expects a bit of "glamourising", that does mean some more detailed retouching in final shots.

sara505 · November 19, 2010

divamum wrote: »

I definitely find (thank goodness!) that I use pp less to "salvage" shots than I did when I first started, and more because I want to do something artistic and/or am getting interested in the best skin retouching I can do; while I use some skin actions and programs, I find I'm generally happier with the results when I do it "manually", and since few of my subjects are 20-somethings with perfect skin and bone structures, they sometimes take a bit more work to bring out their inherent beauty. Since my market expects a bit of "glamourising", that does mean some more detailed retouching in final shots.

OMG, when I think about how many hours it took me to wade through many photos...damn near killed me

zoomer · November 19, 2010

Interesting stuff.
I had this same discussion with Divamum last week. All those little details we as photographers spend hours fixing (I used to but I don't anymore) are rarely really noticed/valued by the clients.....I guess we each have to find our own comfort level

.

Of course some times it is worth it to spend the extra processing time.

My assistant spent two full days editing 20 family photos. The lady was very cute and nice but had 30 pounds of just had a baby weight ....she wanted it removed in every photo....took a Long time.
She bought $1800. worth of canvas prints.....so in that case worth it. Definitely a rare occasion where that much processing would pay for itself.

l.k.madison · November 19, 2010

kdog wrote: »

That's very impressive, l.k., and zoomer. I guess that's the difference between the pros, and hacks like me.

I'm guessing you guys have very efficient workflows, and of course your experience pays off. 120 final edits in 4 hours seems really fast. This is a digression, but are you using LR? Also, I would imagine a fast computer really helps as well, especially on the newer high-res and full frame cameras. My computer is only a year old, has 6 GB of RAM, but still comes to a crawl when using layers on my 5DMKII files.

I'm working on a 4 year old MacBook, as is, with Photoshop CS4 and Photo Mechanic running almost constantly. On the *rare* occasion I hit it with Lightroom, I will, but it's rare. I'm not familiar with it enough to rely on it for editing.

I do the same for weddings, go through every single image and make it the best it can be. I've never batch edited a thing. I'm a firm believer in skin softening, even on the guys, and that 30 seconds makes or breaks a picture for me.

Icebear · November 19, 2010

divamum wrote: »

Also, as far as "proofs", I think it depends on the market you're in. All the pro (ie fulltime) headshot photographers I know definitely do it as proofs>client picks>retouching after selections made - it seems to be standard practice

Diva,
Don't forget that you're in the "theater" business. All the folks you do headshots for are used to being made up as a matter of course. They understand that the image they put in front of the public will be way different than the one they look at in the mirror in the morning.

divamum · November 19, 2010

Icebear wrote: »

Diva,
Don't forget that you're in the "theater" business. All the folks you do headshots for are used to being made up as a matter of course. They understand that the image they put in front of the public will be way different than the one they look at in the mirror in the morning.

Never thought about it that way before (I've been doing it so long I forget it's not really a "normal" way to live

), but that's an extremely good point!

sara505 · November 19, 2010

divamum wrote: »

Never thought about it that way before (I've been doing it so long I forget it's not really a "normal" way to live ), but that's an extremely good point!

Does anyone else do this? After spending several hours working on photos, I walk outside, up busy Beacon Street, surrounded by people whose faces I look at with PhotoShop on my brain and mentally start correcting WB and cloning out wrinkles.

l.k.madison · November 19, 2010

sara505 wrote: »

Does anyone else do this? After spending several hours working on photos, I walk outside, up busy Beacon Street, surrounded by people whose faces I look at with PhotoShop on my brain and mentally start correcting WB and cloning out wrinkles.

I do it, too!!!!

It's really sad when I put on my make-up in the morning and thing "dang, i need a skin soften brush"

divamum · November 19, 2010

l.k.madison wrote: »

I do it, too!!!!

It's really sad when I put on my make-up in the morning and thing "dang, i need a skin soften brush"

Every time I put on makeup I send up a silent prayer that some clever soul will create "Patch tool" in a bottle. Srsly.

Actually, this thread sent me scurrying to youtube to google makeup tutorials for photography and TV and there are some really interesting videos that have appeared since the last time I had alook! Apparently airbrushing makeup is the thing for HDTV since it doesn't create a "mask", but still allows incredibly close, detailed shots that don't show every imperfection. I need to find somebody who owns one and try it out to see if it works

sara505 · November 19, 2010

l.k.madison wrote: »

I do it, too!!!!

It's really sad when I put on my make-up in the morning and thing "dang, i need a skin soften brush"

Me too - do you think we're spending too much time on the computer?:D

How to Handle Bad Eyes on a Gorgeous Woman?

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