Goodbye Smugmug

JimKarczewski · November 17, 2012

Well, it's been fun but I just closed my account. I moved on to another provider that has given me more flexibility, like being able to do self-fulfillment. While I'll still participate in the forum, ZF now has my business and looks like it will for quite some time to come.

joshhuntnm · November 17, 2012

was this because of the price increase?

Snowgirl · November 17, 2012

I am planning on doing the same when my current subscription to SM runs out. The shipping and duty charges to get prints into Canada (no SM printer north of the 49th parallel) and the doubling of the pro fee just knocked me out of the running. I'll be sorry to go - but it's no longer economically feasible for me.

JimKarczewski · November 17, 2012

joshhuntnm wrote: »

was this because of the price increase?

Yes and No. Price increase was part of it, Smugs refusal to implement self-fulfillment items is another. I honest also like ZenFolio's interface better. I'm not stuck with only 3 levels (category, sub-cat, gallery) which is a real eye opener now that I can arrange my photos the way I want, not by some stupid category system.

jww · November 18, 2012

JimKarczewski wrote: »

Yes and No. Price increase was part of it, Smugs refusal to implement self-fulfillment items is another. I honest also like ZenFolio's interface better. I'm not stuck with only 3 levels (category, sub-cat, gallery) which is a real eye opener now that I can arrange my photos the way I want, not by some stupid category system.

I looked at ZF and thought their pricing was similar to the price increase coming soon. Maybe I misread something though.

Art Scott · November 19, 2012

jww wrote: »

I looked at ZF and thought their pricing was similar to the price increase coming soon. Maybe I misread something though.

Similar....With SM the 99 account went to 300 for newbs and 200 for us paying 99....that is 250 at ZF.....They do have a 120 account THAT might now be compared to SM's 150 account....here is alink for comparing ZF accounts: ZENFOLIO PRICING COMPARISONS ...

jww · November 19, 2012

Art Scott wrote: »

Similar....With SM the 99 account went to 300 for newbs and 200 for us paying 99....that is 250 at ZF.....They do have a 120 account THAT might now be compared to SM's 150 account....here is alink for comparing ZF accounts: ZENFOLIO PRICING COMPARISONS ...

Thanks for that! It is food for thought as ZF does have a few things that sound interesting.

Though I am a bit confused at your reply. I am paying 150 now at SM which is going to 250. The similar plan at ZF is also 250. Not sure what the $99 plan here at SM was, but for me the rate would be the same, though some of ZF's options at that level do sound interesting.

novicesnapper · November 19, 2012

At Bilsen's encouragement, I signed up at ZF last weekend. I don't think I'll regret it a bit, even though I'm easing into this slowly. I didn't realize until afterwards, they have some very nice slideshow options as well.

Sventekoz · November 19, 2012

Goodbye SmugMug 2
Recent events with regard to the log-in problems have convinced me that SmugMug is no longer the place for me. However, rather than just leave without saying anything, I wanted to be clear about what's gone wrong for me so that the SmugMug team can reflect on it and hopefully take something from it. Even though it won't concern me any more, I sincerely hope that SmugMug doesn't disappear from the photography landscape.

Firstly, there's the significant issue of the large price increase. To be honest, the price itself didn't especially bother me, since it essentially just brings SmugMug into line with the offerings of similar companies. However, it was clear that SmugMug was being disingenuous with what they were saying. That was borne out with Baldy's recent admissions on this forum about the legal challenges that they're fighting, but it was also clear that something else was going on just from the changes that were announced and the way that occurred. Among other things, it would seem that the stress associated with that has leached into the wider customer service arena. The lesson for SmugMug is, I believe, to just be up front with people about things. Let them know that your corporate landscape has changed, and that you've needed to respond to that. I think you'll find that people are more understanding than you perhaps give them credit for.

Secondly, and for some time now, I've noticed a change in the way that the Heroes respond to customers. The tone in the responses tends to be both somewhat aggressive and patronising, as well as being very defensive. A case in point relates to the concerns raised by a number of people about the quite long-standing log-in problems. While there have been a few threads on this, the one I'll mostly be referring to is here: http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=228952.

The first matter is that, despite it clearly being a wider issue, it took a long time for an official response of any kind. Even then, it wasn't acknowledged as a wider issue, and people were told to just clear their browser cache and restart the browser. It was only after a number of further comments that the matter was acknowledged but, even then, it was in a very begrudging way. Zac's responses were, I'm afraid, less than impressive and typified the sort of thing I referred to earlier. I do want to point out something in particular that has crept into quite a few official responses. That is the tendency to be really passive-aggressive and condescending by saying something along the lines of "I'm sorry you misunderstood my earlier response." Heroes, the reason that people reacted strongly was not because they misunderstood your earlier response, it's because your earlier response was very badly worded and expressed. Sometimes, it was just plain wrong.

So, here's what I would suggest might have been a better way to respond to the log-in issue. As early as possible, let your customers know that you know about the problems. Perhaps something like:

"Hi everyone. Thanks for bringing this problem to our attention. Rest assured that we know about it, and we're working as quickly as we can to resolve the issue. It's a little more challenging than some of our problems because it's affecting a relatively small number of users as far as we can see. So, we need to try and figure out what those users have in common that might be affecting things. For those others of you who haven't let us know that you are also affected, can you please contact a Hero so that we can gather as much information as we can about what might be causing all of this. We'll post updates about progress when we can."

I can't speak for others, but a simple paragraph like that would have more than satisfied me. In this case, it would also have saved you another lost customer.

I'm really hoping that everyone at SmugMug will use this post, along with the others expressing dissatisfaction at the moment, to reflect on where things are going wrong - because they surely are. Don't get into group-think about how the customers are being unreasonable and don't understand what's happening or, even worse, are idiots. I think there have been enough negative posts recently about matters other than the price increase to justify a quite urgent look at wider customer service issues, and I sincerely hope that will happen.

Good luck, SmugMug. I do hope you're around for a long time.

Zanotti · November 19, 2012

Secondly, and for some time now, I've noticed a change in the way that the Heroes respond to customers. The tone in the responses tends to be both somewhat aggressive and patronising, as well as being very defensive. A case in point relates to the concerns raised by a number of people about the quite long-standing log-in problems. While there have been a few threads on this, the one I'll mostly be referring to is here: http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=228952.

Wow, plus 1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry to see you go, but thanks for helping make this a better place for the remaining few customers.

Z

phatspaz · November 19, 2012

They removed the thread, must have been a good one.

Sventekoz · November 19, 2012

phatspaz wrote: »

They removed the thread, must have been a good one.

Really? That's very disappointing. The last time I looked (to see Andy's response), there wasn't anything there that would warrant its entire removal.

Sventekoz · November 19, 2012

It actually appears to have been merged into one thread, here: http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=228163&page=6

MarkR · November 20, 2012

Sventekoz wrote: »

Recent events with regard to the log-in problems have convinced me that SmugMug is no longer the place for me. However, rather than just leave without saying anything, I wanted to be clear about what's gone wrong for me so that the SmugMug team can reflect on it and hopefully take something from it. Even though it won't concern me any more, I sincerely hope that SmugMug doesn't disappear from the photography landscape.

Firstly, there's the significant issue of the large price increase. To be honest, the price itself didn't especially bother me, since it essentially just brings SmugMug into line with the offerings of similar companies. However, it was clear that SmugMug was being disingenuous with what they were saying. That was borne out with Baldy's recent admissions on this forum about the legal challenges that they're fighting, but it was also clear that something else was going on just from the changes that were announced and the way that occurred. Among other things, it would seem that the stress associated with that has leached into the wider customer service arena. The lesson for SmugMug is, I believe, to just be up front with people about things. Let them know that your corporate landscape has changed, and that you've needed to respond to that. I think you'll find that people are more understanding than you perhaps give them credit for.

Secondly, and for some time now, I've noticed a change in the way that the Heroes respond to customers. The tone in the responses tends to be both somewhat aggressive and patronising, as well as being very defensive. A case in point relates to the concerns raised by a number of people about the quite long-standing log-in problems. While there have been a few threads on this, the one I'll mostly be referring to is here: http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=228952.

The first matter is that, despite it clearly being a wider issue, it took a long time for an official response of any kind. Even then, it wasn't acknowledged as a wider issue, and people were told to just clear their browser cache and restart the browser. It was only after a number of further comments that the matter was acknowledged but, even then, it was in a very begrudging way. Zac's responses were, I'm afraid, less than impressive and typified the sort of thing I referred to earlier. I do want to point out something in particular that has crept into quite a few official responses. That is the tendency to be really passive-aggressive and condescending by saying something along the lines of "I'm sorry you misunderstood my earlier response." Heroes, the reason that people reacted strongly was not because they misunderstood your earlier response, it's because your earlier response was very badly worded and expressed. Sometimes, it was just plain wrong.

So, here's what I would suggest might have been a better way to respond to the log-in issue. As early as possible, let your customers know that you know about the problems. Perhaps something like:

"Hi everyone. Thanks for bringing this problem to our attention. Rest assured that we know about it, and we're working as quickly as we can to resolve the issue. It's a little more challenging than some of our problems because it's affecting a relatively small number of users as far as we can see. So, we need to try and figure out what those users have in common that might be affecting things. For those others of you who haven't let us know that you are also affected, can you please contact a Hero so that we can gather as much information as we can about what might be causing all of this. We'll post updates about progress when we can."

I can't speak for others, but a simple paragraph like that would have more than satisfied me. In this case, it would also have saved you another lost customer.

I'm really hoping that everyone at SmugMug will use this post, along with the others expressing dissatisfaction at the moment, to reflect on where things are going wrong - because they surely are. Don't get into group-think about how the customers are being unreasonable and don't understand what's happening or, even worse, are idiots. I think there have been enough negative posts recently about matters other than the price increase to justify a quite urgent look at wider customer service issues, and I sincerely hope that will happen.

Good luck, SmugMug. I do hope you're around for a long time.

Here, here!

A lot of what I was going to say you've said very eloquently.

I'll make a few other suggestions (as a professional help desk person-thingy) to Smugmug support as well:

1. You need better intercommunication. If you have a widespread problem, all your heroes need to understand and acknowledge it.

"Some of our customers are having problems retaining their log in, and we have engineers looking into it, however, have you tried clearing your cookies, and are you using the old slideshow code?"

2. Stop using passive voice. When you say "it is being looked into" it sounds like you have put it on the back burner. Say who is looking into it: a team of engineers, an outside consultant, Joe the Intern. Passive writing is meant to obscure; use active writing for clarity.

3. Smugmug built it's reputation on customer service. For years the mantra was, oh sure, the other sites look better, or are easier to configure, or have nifty features that Smugmug doesn't have, but SM's customer service is far superior. Well, since you've staked your rep. on customer service, you better make sure it is absolutely top tier all the time. Either that, or you need to start surpassing your competition in other areas.

I have a free basic SM account until the end of next year. I just paid for a Zenfolio account. This should tell you something.

jarboedoggart · November 21, 2012

Hey Smugmug, want to go steady?
With all the "goodbye" posts, figured I would be a little supportive of smugmug. I know their out-of-the-box sites are a little dated and we are all waiting for the overdue Smugmug 2.0 and I know that customization can be a little intimidating...but

-I do not have the slightest idea about CSS or HTML and I was able to throw together a site I am happy with, so It cant be that hard
-After the price hike, they are still competitively priced
-Most importantly for my business, they are amazing to deal with. This makes up for all the drama lately. Their support is amazing and are still suprising me. I recently had an issue where I chose the wrong shipping method and the prints would be too late, needless to say Smugmug did more than they had to and I got a my order a week earlier than I needed. This is not the first time they went above and beyond.

My point is, I can depend on them. A flashy new website and lower prices would always be great, but the company itself must be worth something to some of us?

Sventekoz · November 21, 2012

It's worth something to me, too. As I said in my goodbye post, I sincerely hope that they turn things around. Unfortunately, I need a site I can reliably log in to, with a company whose support people consistently show respect to their customers. I hope that when things settle down and the legal problems end the place will return to normal. I'd love to be able to come back.

Demian · November 21, 2012

But can you depend on them?

My primary issue (which AFAIK has not been addressed by them) is that they're being stung by use of their unlimited hosting. It's a bad sign that they need to drastically raise prices as the cost of storage drops. Unfortunately, as people upgrade to higher megapixel cameras and pros continue to rack up years of photos, the storage cost will continue to rise.

The price hike will fix things now, but it doesn't address the core problem; that their storage requirements are increasing fast than storage costs are decreasing.

Honestly, the new price (200? 300?) isn't bad for what they offer, and I don't have a problem staying at that price. But what's the future going to look like? Are there more price hikes needed to keep up with the cost of storage? Or will the company eventually fold trying to meet its promise of unlimited hosting?

MarkR · November 21, 2012

I don't think anybody makes a jump like this lightly. I certainly hope they don't anyway.

Demian · November 21, 2012

The thread was an interesting read. I've been having login issues too, although it hasn't bugged me enough to complain... I'm not sure that's what they're going through.

Also, Art only made one comment! It's really bad form to have your staff publicly threaten to ban customers, especially over something so small. I know I wasn't happy when Andy decided to publicly yell at me for mentioning my political beliefs

A polite, private message is all you really need.

Ann McRae · November 21, 2012

Snowgirl wrote: »

I am planning on doing the same when my current subscription to SM runs out. The shipping and duty charges to get prints into Canada (no SM printer north of the 49th parallel) and the doubling of the pro fee just knocked me out of the running. I'll be sorry to go - but it's no longer economically feasible for me.

Hey Ceci

I sure hope you've not been being charged duty on any shipments. The Canada Customs act is very clear that there are no duties charged on prints, books, etc. If you've been charged anything other than GST at the door, we should investigate.

ann

Photogbiker · November 21, 2012

I am not a pro, but I do have two sites (one for me, and one set up for the high school marching band) that I manage and I have been very happy. Price is fair for what they offer, and service is great.

The one time I needed help was on a print order. Ordered a metal paper print and it showed up in a tube that was crushed/kinked in shipping. Sent an email, polite response, apology, and new print in a couple days. You can't beat that.

I think the comments on Hero help have some validity in a "helpful suggestion" approach, but I think people need to be a little less sensitive too. These folks get tons of questions and in general do very well at quickly responding and resolving.

I for one still recommend Smugmug to others.

Snowgirl · November 22, 2012

Ann McRae wrote: »

Hey Ceci

I sure hope you've not been being charged duty on any shipments. The Canada Customs act is very clear that there are no duties charged on prints, books, etc. If you've been charged anything other than GST at the door, we should investigate.

ann

It seems to depend on who's on first when things come through the border - not just prints, books etc., but also camera and computer gear from other suppliers. Some just charge the GST, as they should. Others throw in duty. It also depends on the courier carrier. Sigh.

But that's not a huge problem - the biggest problem is the lack of a Canadian printer and the doubling of the pro fee. That really hurts when you are a very small business. I've enjoyed Smugmug for several years and have no huge complaints about anything - but i simply can't justify a $300 account going forward.

Art Scott · November 22, 2012

jww wrote: »

Though I am a bit confused at your reply. I am paying 150 now at SM which is going to 250. The similar plan at ZF is also 250. Not sure what the $99 plan here at SM was, but for me the rate would be the same, though some of ZF's options at that level do sound interesting.

the $99 account was the account I was supposed to be "GRANDFATHERED" into, which is Zens 250 account... take a looksee at their comparison chart - Here - to see the diff in all their plans.

You may find that you do not really need the top tier and a premium Account would be fine...Premium account is $120... ... so right off the start that is a $30/yr savings over your current SM subscription ... ... ... or $130 saving over what you will have to pay with your next renewal... ...it is also a $30 saving from the SM Portfolio price.... .... ....

Yes you came in at 150, and are going upto 250, so staying with top tier accounts it would be a laterial move to Zen (pricing wise) ... but as I have stated in various thread...since Zen started they have not raised the prices for current customers, meaning if a customer opened a top tier account at $89 and they had to raise prices the next year, that 89 account stayed at 89... and is still at 89, nearly 10 yrs later... ... so far they only raise prices for NEW customers.
A personal friend came to Zen about 7 yrs ago and even tho Zen has raised prices his account subscription has never went up. That means a lot.

Even with the Holiday the support emails to Zen I have written were answered in minutes... ...

ian408 · November 22, 2012

I think it's important to separate the price of a disk drive from the cost of large storage subsystems.

There's a common misconception that two are directly related. They aren't. Sure, you can buy a big drive at a low cost. If you're handy, you can build a storage array for your own computer for very little money. However, something like what most photo sharing sites use requires not just the drives and enclosures but the resources to manage those drives, the hardware required to provide redundancy, and the hardware required to reliably deliver data to many different threads at one time at a level of performance that makes you feel like you're the only one and the resource required to back the storage system up and so on. Hardware costs are somewhat fixed (recognizing you need to spend/add as required) and do cost more than a handful of disks in a rack. The cost of backups and other data management is on-going and it doesn't get cheaper as you go forward.

Anyway, if it's done correctly, you should never notice things like failed drives (they happen more often than you think), you should never lose anything you put on the array-ever and the performance matches the demand-always.

In case you're wondering, my background includes data management in the semiconductor design environment.

moose135 · November 26, 2012

Art Scott wrote: »

...since Zen started they have not raised the prices for current customers, meaning if a customer opened a top tier account at $89 and they had to raise prices the next year, that 89 account stayed at 89... and is still at 89, nearly 10 yrs later... ... so far they only raise prices for NEW customers.

Which is no guarantee that they won't raise prices on existing customers in the future - remember, SM didn't raise anyone's price in years either...

Art Scott · November 26, 2012

moose135 wrote: »

Which is no guarantee that they won't raise prices on existing customers in the future - remember, SM didn't raise anyone's price in years either...

However with customers that are still paying their original sign up price close to 10 yrs later it is obvious that Zen is doing it correctly... ... SM simply is not doing it correctly...and this is not my only reason for leaving by far ... ... it is just broke the camels back so to speak ... ...

moose135 · November 26, 2012

And three months ago, I could have told you that I hadn't had a price increase from SM in 6 years. As the ads for financial advisors tell you: Past performance is no guarantee of future results

Art Scott · November 27, 2012

moose135 wrote: »

And three months ago, I could have told you that I hadn't had a price increase from SM in 6 years. As the ads for financial advisors tell you: Past performance is no guarantee of future results

There is a correct way and a wrong way of hiking prices...Zen has been doing it correctly....SM is not...it is just that simple.

Glort · November 27, 2012

Forums seem to have a lot of posts saying they are leaving. I'd love to snub muts stats on just how many do leave and the balance sheet of whether the lost clients revenue is made up for by the price increase.

I'd also love to see the competitions figures and much their bottom line changes or not.

Angelo · November 27, 2012

Art Scott wrote: »

the $99 account was the account I was supposed to be "GRANDFATHERED" into, which is Zens 250 account... take a looksee at their comparison chart - Here - to see the diff in all their plans.

You may find that you do not really need the top tier and a premium Account would be fine...Premium account is $120... ... so right off the start that is a $30/yr savings over your current SM subscription ... ... ... or $130 saving over what you will have to pay with your next renewal... ...it is also a $30 saving from the SM Portfolio price.... .... ....

Yes you came in at 150, and are going upto 250, so staying with top tier accounts it would be a laterial move to Zen (pricing wise) ... but as I have stated in various thread...since Zen started they have not raised the prices for current customers, meaning if a customer opened a top tier account at $89 and they had to raise prices the next year, that 89 account stayed at 89... and is still at 89, nearly 10 yrs later... ... so far they only raise prices for NEW customers.
A personal friend came to Zen about 7 yrs ago and even tho Zen has raised prices his account subscription has never went up. That means a lot.

Even with the Holiday the support emails to Zen I have written were answered in minutes... ...

Art Scott wrote: »

However with customers that are still paying their original sign up price close to 10 yrs later it is obvious that Zen is doing it correctly... ... SM simply is not doing it correctly...and this is not my only reason for leaving by far ... ... it is just broke the camels back so to speak ... ...

Art Scott wrote: »

There is a correct way and a wrong way of hiking prices...Zen has been doing it correctly....SM is not...it is just that simple.

gee Art, isn't it awfully nice of smugmug to host this totally fee-free, ad-free forum platform for you to bash them?

you've made your point! repeatedly! we get it! you're not happy - move on!

.

JimKarczewski · November 27, 2012

Hell, Zen offered 50% OFF existing customers on Cybermonday for ANY level. What did Smugmug offer, a free lump of coal?

Goodbye Smugmug

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