Idea for a new challenge

Jenn · February 7, 2013

I've entered a lot of the regular challenges over the last couple of years, and really enjoyed them and have learned a great deal from everyone, but I've been getting discouraged lately about the odds of ever coming close to winning. I know I don't have the equipment or even the experience to win first place against professionals, although I've gotten lucky and placed a few times, but still, never first place. I also know people say it shouldn't be about *winning*, but everyone shoots for the gold when they enter a contest even if they don't say it out loud, right? I'm contemplating buying a new camera, but at the same time I could just as easily back away from doing that or even entering the challenges at this point, which I don't want to give up, either. At the same time, I still know I'm not a professional and I'm competing against professionals, which can be the sort of thing that spurs me on to being a better photographer, but can also be very discouraging and frustrating at times.

That said, I was wondering if there could be an official new challenge started with similar prizes for participants who don't have a professional status, as in, they don't have a photography business, or have never placed first in any challenge (for example if someone placed first in one of the last 2 or 3 other challenges of any sort they would have to wait to enter until the wait time was over to enter the non-pros challenge again).

It's just an idea I've been mulling over trying to find a way to not only encourage myself to keep competing against professionals, but to also compete against non-professionals where I might actually have a chance to win on occasion. That would give me and maybe other non-professionals just enough encouragement to keep trying vs. wanting to give up altogether.

Anyway ... just a thought.

kdotaylor · February 7, 2013

I've seen you post repeatedly that you think most other people are "professionals", or somehow better qualified than you are. I am certainly not a professional--I have a very different full-time job, and I doubt whether many people participating in these challenges are. Could we have a show of hands?

PedalGirl · February 7, 2013

You have got to be kidding me, right? So, what you’re saying is that you don’t think you’re good enough to win a challenge therefore we should dumb it down so you can win? Is that it? Maybe we should hand out participation trophies too so that nobody has to feel left out.

I’m sorry… but the poor me pity party that you regularly put on for yourself is really annoying. And, I, for one am really tired of trying to prop up Jenn’s self esteem by being PC. Look, Jenn. Most of us in the challenge are not professionals. Most of the professionals I do know… they don’t have time for or care for forum challenges. I work a 40 hour a week job that has nothing to do with photography… and in my off time I study photography, I practice photography, I occasionally make a few bucks at photography. The money I have spent on photography is WAY more than any money I’ve ever made at it… at least so far.

So, here’s the thing. Instead of asking for a dumbed down challenge so that you might win… try improving your photography. If that doesn’t work… sorry to say… maybe photography isn’t your particular talent. Doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy it.

Jenn · February 7, 2013

kdotaylor wrote: »

I've seen you post repeatedly that you think most other people are "professionals", or somehow better qualified than you are.

Many people here are professionals, not everyone, though. By professional, I mean, they advertise themselves as having a photography business, have the professional equipment, and professional skillset, etc. I do believe that makes them better qualified than I am, and I know that.

kdotaylor wrote: »

I am certainly not a professional--I have a very different full-time job, and I doubt whether many people participating in these challenges are. Could we have a show of hands?

An example of my line of reasoning.... I've been learning to play chess, and I can compete against anyone at any level one on one. I can compete against champions, which helps me learn to be a better player, and I can also compete against people who are on a similar level, which gives me encouragement that what I'm learning is paying off. When I only compete against champions it can get discouraging to never come close to winning and in doing that I can't tell if I'm improving or not, but I can actually gauge if what I'm learning is working when I compete with people at the same level while I attempt to compete with the professionals, too.

I really enjoy this forum, have learned a lot from competing and listening to various advice along the way, but I don't want to get discouraged and quit trying, so I'm suggesting something that I think will help not only myself, but others who may feel similarly. I think if we had an additional challenge for non-pros that maybe more people would venture into participating in the challenges and not be as intimidated initially by having a challenge available more suited to a non-pro who wants to learn and eventually gain the confidence to compete against the pros or perhaps do both.

Competing against ones own level would help a person gain confidence while competing against the pros would help with learning more skill and less people would become discouraged in participating in the challenges. Maybe it would even attrack more people to the challenges forum, too.

Jenn · February 7, 2013

PedalGirl wrote: »

You have got to be kidding me, right?

Something is wrong here in this forum. Other people have said similar things to me in private, and I believe I have an idea that is valid and will help others who may either feel similarly now, or who have felt this way in the past. I don't like giving up.. I'd rather find a solution vs feeling this way.

PedalGirl wrote: »

So, what you’re saying is that you don’t think you’re good enough to win a challenge therefore we should dumb it down so you can win? Is that it? Maybe we should hand out participation trophies too so that nobody has to feel left out.

I know I'm not good enough to win a challenge against professionals. OTOH, I enjoy competing knowing that I'm competing against professionals. It's just a fact. At the same time, it can get discouraging, and I hate feeling discouraged, therefore, I'm looking for a solution that will not only help me to encourage myself along the way, but help others be encouraged too while they try to compete against professionals. It's a good idea to create an environment where new people will feel comfortable joining in challenges, so creating a non-pro challenge would help, I believe. I think it could increase participation here and diminish the frustration level. I'm just more verbal than some people who choose to never express their frustration with competing - they just leave or quit trying.

PedalGirl wrote: »

I’m sorry… but the poor me pity party that you regularly put on for yourself is really annoying.

I realize you may see what I'm saying as a *pity party*, but it isn't. I want to find a solution vs just feeling frustrated and giving up. Haven't you or anyone else noticed over the past months that participation here is getting less and less? I've noticed....

PedalGirl wrote: »

And, I, for one am really tired of trying to prop up Jenn’s self esteem by being PC.

I'm seeking a solution that will allow me and others to gain confidence vs giving up.

PedalGirl wrote: »

Look, Jenn. Most of us in the challenge are not professionals. Most of the professionals I do know… they don’t have time for or care for forum challenges. I work a 40 hour a week job that has nothing to do with photography… and in my off time I study photography, I practice photography, I occasionally make a few bucks at photography. The money I have spent on photography is WAY more than any money I’ve ever made at it… at least so far.

You also advertise a photography business which qualifies you as being a professional photgrapher.

Cambyses · February 7, 2013

Jenn -- I don't think you should ever be discouraged just because you may see better pictures more often. I also don't think many participants in these challenges are serious professionals, per se, and by serious professionals I mean those who make their living solely on photography. Yes, many people here may have advanced equipments, a nice website, and may even advertise their photography business. But that is likely because photography has been their serious hobby for years, and they have been willing to invest money and time in it and they have been constantly learning, and perhaps even making few bucks here and there. But that is far from being a serious photography professional, who, as PedalGirl pointed out, would probably not care much about these forum challenges anyway.

The whole point of these challenges is to try, exercise, and learn, and improve your skills in the process. And you should actually be happy to see better pictures more often as it could give you ideas on how to further improve your skills, even if you do not win any of the challenges.

FYI, both my wife and I have been participating in these challenges for some time (though unfortunately much less often in recent months due to our busy schedules). We are both engineers and don't yet consider ourselves even an advanced amature in photography, let alone a professional. And still, we both have been among the winners a couple of times before, and my wife was the top winner in one challenge. And funny enough, her one picture that got the top spot was actually taken not with any of our more advanced equipment but simply with our Powershot S95 with almost no post processing. And yet there have been challenges where we may have spent a lot of time for setting up the shot, post processing, etc., and not be selected among any of the winners.

Bottom line -- I don't think having lower quality challenges is the answer. We are not like kids who may appreciate fake encouragement. If we truly love taking pictures and improving our skills, we should never be discouraged and keep trying....

Cheers...

Memol · February 7, 2013

I guess most of the people here are not professional photographers and most of them only enjoy photography and try to improve themselves through the challenges and learning from others through discussions and comments. Even if some have the self esteem to list themselves as photography and make a profile, it does not mean that they are better than the others in every aspects of photography. There is nothing to measure the skills except the pictures. I guess no one here studied photography. It's not difficult to make a profile and select a name, but this does not mean that your job is photography. BTW, I am seeing pictures of my friends on the internet taken by professional like wedding photographers and I can find lots of issues with the pictures, so even people who are doing it for their living still are not perfect. I used to be more active last year, but first of all I got very busy with my life and secondly like you I got discouraged as I noticed that the topics are giving too much flexibility and at the end we have to impress the voters. This is not something wrong and it is true for any kind of challenge. We cannot force people to see things as our perspective and we cannot force them to like our work no matter what we are doing. This is true for any job you are doing that thing is that we have to enjoy what we are doing and try to do our best. Every once in while I was looking at the challenges and I noticed lots of improvements in the pictures of people I used to see in these challenges. The only thing is that you are getting better, but others also improve so most of the time there are fixed people that their pictures impress the others. Good luck and try to have fun

Cambyses · February 7, 2013

Oops... funny that right after I post my reply I see my wife also posted her comments on the same thread. I am glad we said almost the same thing. Otherwise, it would have been embarrassing ...

Earache · February 7, 2013

My 2 cents:
Terms such as "Professional" and "Qualified" are broad, subject to much interpretation, and really have no relevance to participating in the challenges here. I've seen many an image here - produced by so-called "Professionals" - that would look better hung backwards in the closet. DGrin challenges are open to any registered member and voted on by the same - it's simple, fair, ain't broke, and don't need to be fixed. PedalGirl is right - dumbing-down the contest is not a choice.
It may be frustrating to compete time-after-time and not win - but, isn't that the reality of life in general, and every day for the Chicago Cubs?
Jenn - you have the right to feel the way you do, however, do not be surprised - despite what you believe - if there are very few others that share your point of view.
I think keeping this forum fun, entertaining, and as non-controversial as possible is a worthwhile goal.

Jenn · February 7, 2013

Cambyses wrote: »

Jenn -- I don't think you should ever be discouraged just because you may see better pictures more often.....

Hiii ... and thanks for your input.

I get discouraged because I know my limitations with equipment and experience level knowing that there is no chance of winning. I'm like everyone else who enters a challenge. I want a fighting chance to win first place.

Cambyses wrote: »

The whole point of these challenges is to try, exercise, and learn, and improve your skills in the process. And you should actually be happy to see better pictures more often as it could give you ideas on how to further improve your skills, even if you do not win any of the challenges....

If a person gets discouraged, they quit trying, and cease to care about learning or improving their skills. If they have some hope of doing well, then they are less likely to get discouraged and gain confidence and want to learn and improve their skills.

I don't know anyone who enters a contest or challenge who doesn't want to win, or at least have a fighting chance. That's just natural, and when people say otherwise I don't think they are being totally truthful because wanting to win is a normal response to competition.

If a reasonable expectation of that fighting chance is removed, the normal response is to get discouraged. I'd like to see that problem solved.

Cambyses wrote: »

Bottom line -- I don't think having lower quality challenges is the answer. We are not like kids who may appreciate fake encouragement. If we truly love taking pictures and improving our skills, we should never be discouraged and keep trying....

It's not about having *lower quality challenges* ... it's about fostering a positive environment where people will feel they do have a fighting chance, which in turn, creates confidence, and that will create a sense of excitement, enjoyment, and make a person want to try and learn and compete more vs. giving up.

Sure, we aren't kids, but what I'm saying is how a good many people respond to competition. 'Course ... there may not be anyone else who sees it this way, but me. I'd like to see the challenge forum grow... I just thought I'd suggest something new that might help.

Memol wrote: »

.... I used to be more active last year, but first of all I got very busy with my life and secondly like you I got discouraged as I noticed that the topics are giving too much flexibility and at the end we have to impress the voters. This is not something wrong and it is true for any kind of challenge. We cannot force people to see things as our perspective and we cannot force them to like our work no matter what we are doing. This is true for any job you are doing that thing is that we have to enjoy what we are doing and try to do our best. Every once in while I was looking at the challenges and I noticed lots of improvements in the pictures of people I used to see in these challenges. The only thing is that you are getting better, but others also improve so most of the time there are fixed people that their pictures impress the others. Good luck and try to have fun

I noticed you haven't been around, Memol. Good to see you.

puzzledpaul · February 7, 2013

Surely it also depends on why you're doing / interested in photography (assuming amateur) + what you're hoping to get out of challenges.

I've got a pretty narrow range of interest these days but know what sort of shot / result I'm after ... and rarely bother to enter challenges unless the subject happens to overlap with said interests / situation. (eg my dss121 entry was snapped because I ended up using centre AF point for better lock on reasons )

Ditto with the (few) other things I've entered ... or old stuff that happened to be relevant (in mini Cs)

I assume that other non-pro people here might sometimes have similar approaches (+ different subject interests?) ...

As an amateur, I set up my freebie site so that people I see at the venue I frequent (and ask if I upload pix to the net) have somewhere to visit ... and I give out 'contact' cards make from recycled cardboard ex cereal packets / juice cartons, hand written with site details on ... all highly professional ... not

... but they are original (especially as they're circular / ellipical)

I've not seen any of your pics, so can't comment on them ...

If such a challenge arena as you want is set up ... and things don't change ... where will you go from there?

pp

Jenn · February 7, 2013

Earache wrote: »

My 2 cents:
Terms such as "Professional" and "Qualified" are broad, subject to much interpretation, and really have no relevance to participating in the challenges here. I've seen many an image here - produced by so-called "Professionals" - that would look better hung backwards in the closet. DGrin challenges are open to any registered member and voted on by the same - it's simple, fair, ain't broke, and don't need to be fixed. PedalGirl is right - dumbing-down the contest is not a choice.
It may be frustrating to compete time-after-time and not win - but, isn't that the reality of life in general, and every day for the Chicago Cubs?
Jenn - you have the right to feel the way you do, however, do not be surprised - despite what you believe - if there are very few others that share your point of view.
I think keeping this forum fun, entertaining, and as non-controversial as possible is a worthwhile goal.

Chicago Cubs?

(not into baseball)

Question ... Do you see many new people entering the challenges? I don't. How many new people might actually give it a try if they knew they could compete with their similar level non-professional peers vs competing against pros and people who have won against pros?

Frankly, I think the forum could grow quite a bit.

PedalGirl · February 7, 2013

Jenn wrote: »

You also advertise a photography business which qualifies you as being a professional photgrapher.

I would like to point out that having a photography website does not make you a “professional”. And just an FYI … I have an entry level DSLR, 2 kit lenses and a 50mm prime that I bought. That’s it! I don’t even own an off camera flash at the moment. I subscribe to the Adobe Cloud because I couldn’t afford to buy the programs outright. I borrow lenses from friends once in a while. I study like crazy… I watch endless tutorials and workshops. I spend hours just browsing other people’s work… for inspiration and learning. I do this because I love it… and because it makes me a better photographer.

I would love to be able to support myself doing what I love… eventually…. But for now I would just like to make a little to save for some better gear. I’m 43 years old with a grown daughter that I raised by myself… and just a few years ago figured out what it was that I wanted to be when I grew up. Therefore… win, lose or draw… I will not give up trying or learning or shooting… because it’s a love, a passion… not a challenge to be won or lost. And when I do well I want to know that I earned it… not that the playing field was limited.

Quite frankly… I’m gonna fake it till I make it, baby.

I like to keep these 3 things in mind.

1. There’s no crying in Photography
2. Never let them see you sweat
3. It’s not the gear, stupid, it’s the photographer. – but gear can be pretty sweet.

Jenn · February 7, 2013

puzzledpaul wrote: »

Surely it also depends on why you're doing / interested in photography (assuming amateur) + what you're hoping to get out of challenges....

Enjoyment, fun, growth, learn, compete, and eventually win occasionally as a result of the growth which is one big indicator that growth has actually taken place.

puzzledpaul wrote: »

As an amateur, I set up my freebie site so that people I see at the venue I frequent (and ask if I upload pix to the net) have somewhere to visit ... and I give out 'contact' cards make from recycled cardboard ex cereal packets / juice cartons, hand written with site details on ... all highly professional ... not ... but they are original (especially as they're circular / ellipical)

I've not seen any of your pics, so can't comment on them ...

It's probably just a well you haven't seen them ..

To me many of the photos are my best (at the time they were taken), but they probably don't compare to many of the awesome images from all over the world that I've seen others produce...

puzzledpaul wrote: »

If such a challenge arena as you want is set up ... and things don't change ... where will you go from there?

For me, it's a test of how far I can go and how quickly. Like in learning backgammon ... it took me a couple of years to get to the point where I conquered the game, then I got bored. I've moved on to learning Chess now. I want to get to where I conquer that game, which may take a while .. or not ..

, but at any rate it's a challenge I put to myself because it's something I can actually see if what I'm learning is working and I'm improving.

I enjoy photography, but it's difficult to gauge whether or not I am improving because so much of it is based on the viewers personal preferences. In a way, that alone is a challenge to attempt to overcome, so I keep trying. The one thing that I've struggled with is the 'getting discouraged' thing, and I know other people go through that too, so I'd like to see if there is a solution that will help not only myself but others not have such a struggle with it ... I dunno ... I may be barking up the wrong tree trying to even find a solution...

Jenn · February 7, 2013

PedalGirl wrote: »

I would like to point out that having a photography website does not make you a “professional”. And just an FYI … I have an entry level DSLR, 2 kit lenses and a 50mm prime that I bought. That’s it! I don’t even own an off camera flash at the moment. I subscribe to the Adobe Cloud because I couldn’t afford to buy the programs outright. I borrow lenses from friends once in a while. I study like crazy… I watch endless tutorials and workshops. I spend hours just browsing other people’s work… for inspiration and learning. I do this because I love it… and because it makes me a better photographer.

I would love to be able to support myself doing what I love… eventually…. But for now I would just like to make a little to save for some better gear. I’m 43 years old with a grown daughter that I raised by myself… and just a few years ago figured out what it was that I wanted to be when I grew up. Therefore… win, lose or draw… I will not give up trying or learning or shooting… because it’s a love, a passion… not a challenge to be won or lost. And when I do well I want to know that I earned it… not that the playing field was limited.

Quite frankly… I’m gonna fake it till I make it, baby.

I like to keep these 3 things in mind.

1. There’s no crying in Photography
2. Never let them see you sweat
3. It’s not the gear, stupid, it’s the photographer. – but gear can be pretty sweet.

IMO ... and from everything I've ever read or seen discussed about being a professional ... once you sell your product and advertise it, that makes you a professional.

Not everyone is where you're at, which is a great place to be. I'd love to be where you're at, but I have to be honest .. I'm not there yet. It's difficult jumping to the top when there are no stairs in between.

... and BTW ... It wasn't easy for me to bring up this topic because *adults* are supposed to 'grin and bare it' ... 'not talk about stuff that make others uncomfortable', or other such unwritten rules about expressing our feelings in a public setting.

Maybe it will help someone else along the way.

lkbart · February 7, 2013

Jenn - Learn to enjoy the journey and you will be much more satisfied in general. Photography is an art and a process to be enjoyed and not something to be conquered.

PedalGirl · February 7, 2013

Photography is not chess. Even the best of the best of the best are still learning, still improving, they are not static. If you're looking to conquer photography so you can get bored and move on to the next thing... you're gonna be banging your head against a brick wall for the rest of your life.

But then again... I feel like I'm banging my head a brick wall here.

Jenn · February 7, 2013

lkbart wrote: »

Jenn - Learn to enjoy the journey and you will be much more satisfied in general. Photography is an art and a process to be enjoyed and not something to be conquered.

I'm a very artistic person, but I'm also an analytical person, and I enjoy a challenge. A challenge by definition is something to be conquered or overcome, which for someone like me IS art.

PedalGirl wrote: »

Photography is not chess. Even the best of the best of the best are still learning, still improving, they are not static. If you're looking to conquer photography so you can get bored and move on to the next thing... you're gonna be banging your head against a brick wall for the rest of your life.

But then again... I feel like I'm banging my head a brick wall here.

Not everyone learns or grows in the same way ... I set goals with photography as I've done with learning Chess. With no goal there is no purpose.

You don't have to understand how I learn or grow in order to realize that I'm trying to share something here that's important to me and find a way to solve an issue that might also help other people, too.

Or perhaps, your way is the only way to be a good photographer.

divamum · February 7, 2013

Jenn - October 6th 2010 wrote: »

I was wondering if there could be separate challenges for amateurs? Competing against professional photographers is getting very discouraging for me.

Link to: Page 41, post #804, October 2010.

There was about 10 pages of discussion before and after it, too. Might be worth re-reading since there were some great (and encouraging) comments then, too.

kdotaylor · February 7, 2013

divamum wrote: »

Link to: Page 41, post #804, October 2010.

There was about 10 pages of discussion before and after it, too. Might be worth re-reading since there were some great (and encouraging) comments then, too.

Thank you, Divamum! I knew this sounded all too familiar.

karlabbott · February 7, 2013

Jenn wrote: »

Chicago Cubs? (not into baseball)

Question ... Do you see many new people entering the challenges? I don't. How many new people might actually give it a try if they knew they could compete with their similar level non-professional peers vs competing against pros and people who have won against pros?

Frankly, I think the forum could grow quite a bit.

Participation across dgrin seems to be down in general, so I don't think that people are shying away because of the nature of the challenges.

Honestly, while there is still a lot of good work on dgrin, the lack of participation that I've noticed seems to be from some of the ones who were contributing excellent work. Good work is inspiring and educational. The more good work that is on dgrin and being discussed, the more active the boards are likely to be.

I wouldn't get frustrated because you haven't won a challenge. Instead, focus on an aspect of photography that you like. Make the images you want to make because you want to make them, not because you want to win a dgrin challenge. Photography needs to be fun and if the challenges are preventing you from having fun with photography, then change things up and find something that makes photography fun again for you.

And as for gear, good gear is nice. Good gear makes certain things easier. But it doesn't turn things into art. That's the job of a photographer.

Bottom line -- go have fun with photography and don't be discouraged by what happens or doesn't happen on dgrin.

Earache · February 7, 2013

Jenn wrote: »

Chicago Cubs? (not into baseball)

Question ... Do you see many new people entering the challenges? I don't. How many new people might actually give it a try if they knew they could compete with their similar level non-professional peers vs competing against pros and people who have won against pros?

Frankly, I think the forum could grow quite a bit.

The Cubs have been around forever, never seem to win (The World Series) - but never quit competing, and have never asked that the game be changed to make it easier. This is the true nature of competition, not your idealized "I should be able to win in order for it to be fair" expectation.

"Successful" photography is in the vision and execution of image making - not in labels or type of gear - many wonderful images have been created for decades with the gear available at the time, some of it quite primitive by today's standards.

While the total number of entries may be lower right now, I have seen new participants - I'm new for that matter - this factor will always go up and down.

Jenn, I'll give you credit for the courage of conviction, and, probably knowing the reaction you would get, posting your feelings anyway and keeping calm with your responses. But now, my advice to you is to heed the great advice you have gotten in this thread - adjust your expectations - stop beating the deceased horse - set your sights higher - and go out and click, click, click, and more click!

puzzledpaul · February 7, 2013

karlabbott wrote: »

... Instead, focus on an aspect of photography that you like. Make the images you want to make because you want to make them, not because you want to win a dgrin challenge. ...

+1 ... well put.

+ suggesting that someone who sells the 'odd frame' is a pro, is, in my books, akin to suggesting that 'Martha, who makes jam' ... and sells it at the annual WI or similar ... is also a 'pro', and should be considered in the same league as truly commercial outfits.

pp

Jenn · February 7, 2013

divamum wrote: »

Link to: Page 41, post #804, October 2010.
There was about 10 pages of discussion before and after it, too. Might be worth re-reading since there were some great (and encouraging) comments then, too.

BTDT .. read it .. discussed it.

kdotaylor wrote: »

Thank you, Divamum! I knew this sounded all too familiar.

The problem still exists. I get discouraged ... others get discouraged. Nothing changes so that people are less likely to get discouraged. Why can't something new happen that can solve a problem, or at least help? People just leave or don't even try.

karlabbott wrote: »

Participation across dgrin seems to be down in general, so I don't think that people are shying away because of the nature of the challenges.

How do you know people aren't shying away because of the nature of the challenges? I do at times ... others have told me that they did, too. There aren't that many new people here... 1 or 2 a month maybe?? Do they stay??

karlabbott wrote: »

Honestly, while there is still a lot of good work on dgrin, the lack of participation that I've noticed seems to be from some of the ones who were contributing excellent work. Good work is inspiring and educational. The more good work that is on dgrin and being discussed, the more active the boards are likely to be.

Success is even more inspiring and encouraging vs watching someone else be successful.

karlabbott wrote: »

I wouldn't get frustrated because you haven't won a challenge.

As much as you feel I shouldn't feel that way, it doesn't help being told 'don't feel that way'.

karlabbott wrote: »

Instead, focus on an aspect of photography that you like.

I already have done that ... it doesn't remove the 'disappointment or frustration'.

karlabbott wrote: »

Make the images you want to make because you want to make them, not because you want to win a dgrin challenge.

Doesn't everyone want to win if you're being truely honest?

karlabbott wrote: »

Photography needs to be fun and if the challenges are preventing you from having fun with photography, then change things up and find something that makes photography fun again for you.

I'm suggesting something that I believe would make it fun again for me and probably some others, too.

karlabbott wrote: »

And as for gear, good gear is nice. Good gear makes certain things easier. But it doesn't turn things into art. That's the job of a photographer.

Bottom line -- go have fun with photography and don't be discouraged by what happens or doesn't happen on dgrin.

I appreciate what you've said ... and you listening.

Earache wrote: »

The Cubs have been around forever, never seem to win (The World Series) - but never quit competing, and have never asked that the game be changed to make it easier.

They also get paid well for losing.

Earache wrote: »

"Successful" photography is in the vision and execution of image making - not in labels or type of gear -

Not when it comes to competing against professionals because they judge you expecting professional results and will generally choose the professional image ... not the image that was taken because a person had a 'vision' and was trying to portray that vision ....

Earache wrote: »

While the total number of entries may be lower right now, I have seen new participants - I'm new for that matter - this factor will always go up and down.

It's on a downward trend ... as far as new people.

Earache wrote: »

Jenn, I'll give you credit for the courage of conviction, and, probably knowing the reaction you would get, posting your feelings anyway and keeping calm with your responses.

thanks

I realize people would rather just go along with noone rocking the boat at all ... but at least I tried to get people to see a different perspective. I'd like to see lots of new people here, not just a couple here or there.

Earache wrote: »

But now, my advice to you is to heed the great advice you have gotten in this thread - adjust your expectations - stop beating the deceased horse - set your sights higher - and go out and click, click, click, and more click!

Sometimes great advice is dated and when new ideas would actually shake things up and make things more exciting and different, but many people don't like new ideas or even *different*. They like what's familiar to them.

Jenn · February 7, 2013

puzzledpaul wrote: »

+1 ... well put.

+ suggesting that someone who sells the 'odd frame' is a pro, is, in my books, akin to suggesting that 'Martha, who makes jam' ... and sells it at the annual WI or similar ... is also a 'pro', and should be considered in the same league as truly commercial outfits.

pp

Regardless, when someone makes money at a trade, that puts them in the professional category.

puzzledpaul · February 7, 2013

Jenn wrote: »

Regardless, when someone makes money at a trade, that puts them in the professional category.

So, if I - or anyone else - bought a single one of your pics, you'd consider yourself a pro ... and thus, by your definition, exclude yourself from a 'non-pro' challenge?

Instead of waiting for something to be done, why not start your own 'non-pro' challenge and see what happens.
Also consider how ppl are supposed to verify they're not pros ... eg does the very act of having a website mean they're a pro?

pp

cbbr · February 7, 2013

I have entered pictures that won, and I have entered pictures that hardly got a vote - I liked them all. But that's the thing, I take pictures that I like and use the challenges as a way to get me out of my normal frame of reference. There is an old saying that goes something like "do what you always do, get what you always got". If you have been at this for several years (it would appear as much) and not improved, maybe you need to change what you are doing or the way that you are doing it.

I am far, far more confident in my ability to both use my equipment and to "see" photographs that I will like a lot than I was two years ago or even last year. That is due in no small part to reading and paying close attention to shots (mine and others) on forums just like this. Its free and invaluable.

Notice the emphasis on "I" - take pictures for yourself and share them with the world. Get better at taking those and don't worry about what others think. There is no "win" or "lose" - its an art and a craft that will never be mastered. Never. I got to see Joe McNally a while back and he noted many times that you do the best that you can and its still a crap shoot. I suggest that he is a "professional" by any definition.

On that, I a not a professional any more than most here. I am a perfectionist, obsessive, in love with the art and craft, but will never make a living at it... its a serious hobby but that's all. Depressing in a way (I envy folks who can make a living at this), but very liberating because I can shoot what I want when I want and not have to worry about a paycheck.

JAG · February 7, 2013

Simply put Jenn, this has been discussed before and like before you refuse to listen to any advice or encouragement that others give. There is nothing wrong with the challenges as they stand. There are plenty of new comers to the challenge, even in this last round. The participation slowed down like it always does during the Holiday seasons and is picking back up. The only person I see that gets really discouraged is you. Others have mention that they take breaks from the challenges, mainly due to time constraints. But they always come back. If you are discouraged enough to not participate, then don't. As I have told you in the past, there are plenty of other competitions out there on the net. Go for it!

Jenn · February 7, 2013

puzzledpaul wrote: »

So, if I - or anyone else - bought a single one of your pics, you'd consider yourself a pro ... and thus, by your definition, exclude yourself from a 'non-pro' challenge?

oh come on ..

No ones going to buy my pics!

I don't advertise them as being for sale ... don't have a photography website with my name or logo on it, don't have the equipment or the images that people would want to buy.

But thanks for making me laugh!

puzzledpaul wrote: »

Instead of waiting for something to be done, why not start your own 'non-pro' challenge and see what happens.

That would be presumptuous of me to do something like that ... I wouldn't want to assume authority that I don't have ... that's why I posted it as a suggestion of something we might do on an official basis that has similar prizes. I'm a web promotions person, so I tend to think this way about stuff like this.....

puzzledpaul wrote: »

Also consider how ppl are supposed to verify they're not pros ... eg does the very act of having a website mean they're a pro?

I put the suggestion out there for consideration ... I figured such details could be worked out if the idea was appealing and workable.

Jenn · February 7, 2013

JAG wrote: »

Simply put Jenn, this has been discussed before and like before you refuse to listen to any advice or encouragement that others give. There is nothing wrong with the challenges as they stand. There are plenty of new comers to the challenge, even in this last round. The participation slowed down like it always does during the Holiday seasons and is picking back up. The only person I see that gets really discouraged is you. Others have mention that they take breaks from the challenges, mainly due to time constraints. But they always come back. If you are discouraged enough to not participate, then don't. As I have told you in the past, there are plenty of other competitions out there on the net. Go for it!

There is something wrong here and it isn't just me. This is a good idea.

Jenn · February 7, 2013

cbbr wrote: »

I have entered pictures that won, and I have entered pictures that hardly got a vote - I liked them all. But that's the thing, I take pictures that I like and use the challenges as a way to get me out of my normal frame of reference. There is an old saying that goes something like "do what you always do, get what you always got". If you have been at this for several years (it would appear as much) and not improved, maybe you need to change what you are doing or the way that you are doing it.

I am far, far more confident in my ability to both use my equipment and to "see" photographs that I will like a lot than I was two years ago or even last year. That is due in no small part to reading and paying close attention to shots (mine and others) on forums just like this. Its free and invaluable.

Notice the emphasis on "I" - take pictures for yourself and share them with the world. Get better at taking those and don't worry about what others think. There is no "win" or "lose" - its an art and a craft that will never be mastered. Never. I got to see Joe McNally a while back and he noted many times that you do the best that you can and its still a crap shoot. I suggest that he is a "professional" by any definition.

On that, I a not a professional any more than most here. I am a perfectionist, obsessive, in love with the art and craft, but will never make a living at it... its a serious hobby but that's all. Depressing in a way (I envy folks who can make a living at this), but very liberating because I can shoot what I want when I want and not have to worry about a paycheck.

ack!

How can you say you aren't a professional? I've seen your website!

Idea for a new challenge

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