Let's recruit another Dgrinner - Surf Shots Advice

Andy · January 21, 2006

This question came from a SmugMug pro who wants to improve his Surfing shots.

anonymous wrote:

Where can I find some settings advice for the Canon 20D and 100-400mmlens on a tripod for surf photos. iso? parameter? evaluative metering? exposure +/-. How to manually set after I get the 1x4 teleconv.?

I had to ask for direction as I don't know where to go...many mahalos for your direction

...went to other side off island today and shot great 10ft wave faces but overexposed?

He's from Hawaii - and never stops rubbing in how wonderful the weather is while I'm freezing my butt off here in NY :rolleyes.

OK - my first advice, as some of the shots he's having issues with have blown wave-foam (not uncommon!):

SHOOT RAW + JPG. Yes, it eats up memory cards. Yes RAWs take longer. But, you can tweak your in camera parms on the 20D to get the shots mostly- or nearly all right out-of-camera. RAW will save your pineapples when areas within the shot are overexposed.

SET NEGATIVE EC - set your exposure compensation to -1/3, or -2/3s. This will help to avoid the blowouts also. I recommend evaluative metering - the one that looks like this: (*).

FAST SHUTTER SPEED. 1/1000th is good. Faster even if you can. Hard to do on the 100-400 f/5.6 IS lens you are using, but that's why you should

CRANK UP THE ISO. Canon has some of the best high-ISO quality in the business. Don't be afraid of ISO 400, 800 if you must.

GET FAST GLASS. Well, this is $$$ I know, but if you're pro, and earning money from this, you do the math. Faster glass will allow you to shoot at lower ISO, also. The faster glass is sharper, typically, than your 100-400. Important for the details on the surfer's face.

TELECONVERTER. I don't recommend the TC on the 100-400, but I can highly recommned the 1.4x TC on the 400mm f/5.6L - a great lens, and relatively affordable.

OK Surf shooters, let's hear your ideas :ear

Andy · January 21, 2006

Oh and don't forget:

Shots like this sell, of course:

But, so do shots like this:

ginger_55 · January 21, 2006

On the 400mm, a lens I have and love. In fact, it is very popular on this forum right now.

Do NOT get the Canon teleconverter, get the Tamron cheap one. The Canon has to be taped to work. The Tamron just works with that lens.

And Andy, gorgeous shots. I remember the second shot, but I didn't know you "do" active surfing shots like the first one. Wonderful shot!

Also, if something is being blown out, well it does help to do all the things Andy mentioned. If all else is right, I do lower the EV with birds. Then look at the histogram thingy. (I can say "thingy", I am not a pro)

ginger

ginger_55 · January 21, 2006

Stupid question: what is partial metering? How does one get it?

ginger again

Andy · January 21, 2006

I'm sorry. (*) is EVALUATIVE metering and that's what I meant. Check page 71 of your 20D manual to read about it.

ian408 · January 21, 2006

Aloha!

With the 100-400, I'm not sure you need a tripod. Maybe a monopod
instead? If you want to hang around the beach for a while, a tall
tripod (one that doesn't require you to raise the column while looking
through the viewfinder) would be nice.

As far as metering, Evaluative and as Andy suggests, maybe dial down
the exposure a tad. Surfing's tough in that regard because your subject
often contains both black and bright white which can fool the meter
(as you've noticed)

Another way to go would be to meter the shot and then set your exposure
manually using the results from your first shot. Adjust accordingly and check
often. For bright sun light, 1/1500 @ f/5.6 (ISO 100) would be a good start.
If you do choose manual exposure, be sure to check and adjust as required.

Here are a couple of examples for you:

Aloha,
Ian

Andy · January 21, 2006

A big plus in the questioner's favor, versus the surfers you and I shoot, Ian, is that they rarely have to wear the black neoprene wetsuits to protect from chilly waters :pissed

ian408 · January 21, 2006

Andy wrote:

A big plus in the questioner's favor, versus the surfers you and I shoot, Ian, is that they rarely have to wear the black neoprene wetsuits to protect from chilly waters :pissed

Absolutely.

Steve Cavigliano · January 21, 2006

Andy wrote:

A big plus in the questioner's favor, versus the surfers you and I shoot, Ian, is that they rarely have to wear the black neoprene wetsuits to protect from chilly waters :pissed

True, but that might be offset somewhat by the brighter Sunlight they seem to get. Although, nowhere could have worse light angles than Steamers.....

Steve

gus · January 21, 2006

ian408 wrote:

Absolutely.

Black wetsuits are proof to the sharks around here that you are indeed a big fat juicy seal.

Here are some of mine ...just click on EXIF to see info. I know little about methods except the value of canons 400mm f/5.6.

I should learn more about PS really. Oh & just for you Andy...that water is about 75f.

van · January 21, 2006

Surf Shots in Maui
Aloha,
Thank you for the advice thus far. I recenlty started shooting out of the water and I need some specific information as the camera settings in one particular surf zone for long board surfing. We use big 12' models for beginners who come to Hawaii to surf.

I shoot a Canon 20D and 100-400mm lens fully extended on surfers that are 300 - 400 yards away. I have used P mode with center point focusing at 200 iso and exposure setting +1/3 with success. I have to over expose the picture to make up for the sun shadow over half of their face. The sun travels from over my left shoulder to in front of my left cheek. I shoot at 8AM, 10AM and noon daily. The meter reads about a 125 shutter speed shot and 9.0 apeture. I then crop the heck out of the picture. Those pictures are on the web sight mauiactionphotos.com from January 13 -20 (pick any show to see those settings)

Today I put it on AV mode with a 5.6 apeture and 1000 or more shutter speed and a +/- combination on thew exposure. I tried 100 iso, 200 iso and 400 iso with partial and evaluative settings. On my web sight mauiactionphotos.com today jan21.2006 (pick any show on that date1/21/06) are the results

You can also see some great underwater work and some big wave shots with lots of white water and winsurfers shot in the P mode described above.

So my question is specific for my purpose and I hope to move to all manual settings in the end but this photography style is a bit new for me.
?1- What Canon 20d settings would you use for shooting slow moving surfers 400 yards away with a 100-400 is tripoded lens?
?2- Can someone second the Tamron extender advice, does it work with autofocus?

This is my first chat room so I promise to learn to add small pix nest time.
Thank you for reading this and Aloha

Van

Andy · January 21, 2006

van wrote:

So my question is specific for my purpose and I hope to move to all manual settings in the end but this photography style is a bit new for me.
?1- What Canon 20d settings would you use for shooting slow moving surfers 400 yards away with a 100-400 is tripoded lens?
?2- Can someone second the Tamron extender advice, does it work with autofocus?

This is my first chat room so I promise to learn to add small pix nest time.
Thank you for reading this and Aloha
Van

Aloha, Van, and welcome to Dgrin! OK so specifically - settings: I'd go with AV Mode, set it on f/5.6, and Evaluative metering. Set your ISO up to where you get shutter speeds of NOT LESS than 1/500th of a second.

Tamron extender - I'm not certain it will work on this lens, I've only used it on the 400 f/5.6L. It probabaly will - I have some sources and I'll check for you. If it works like on the 400 f/5.6L, yes, it will AF just fine.

To figure out Dgrin, there's a link in my sig, below - and also same info in the FAQ, up on the top navbar.

Much mahalo

Andy

gus · January 21, 2006

van wrote:

Aloha,
?1- What Canon 20d settings would you use for shooting slow moving surfers 400 yards away with a 100-400 is tripoded lens?
Van

Van its just too hard to give this advise when light is such a variable.

I shoot only with the 400 prime f/5.6 & from 4pm to 6pm i can watch the lens slow significantly & i just keep on raising the ISO to compensate.

I never ever take the 20D off AV....i just watch the shutter speed in the view finder as i shoot & adjust the aperture & ISO acordingly.

I also try & keep the shutter above 1/1000 & better yet up to 1/1250-1/1500 because a lot of shots end up being cropped & i have found this higher speed keeps the heavily cropped shots sharp.

Gus

David_S85 · January 21, 2006

Van, I have no advise to give you yet, as my 400 5.6 is probably being assembled right now, and my 1.4x Tamron TC is on a UPS truck, and I don't live near surfing (Lake Michigan doesn't count), but....

Wecome to Dgrin!

Andy · January 21, 2006

Humungus wrote:

Van its just too hard to give this advise when light is such a variable.

I shoot only with the 400 prime f/5.6 & from 4pm to 6pm i can watch the lens slow significantly & i just keep on raising the ISO to compensate.

I never ever take the 20D off AV....i just watch the shutter speed in the view finder as i shoot & adjust the aperture & ISO acordingly.

I also try & keep the shutter above 1/1000 & better yet up to 1/1250-1/1500 because a lot of shots end up being cropped & i have found this higher speed keeps the heavily cropped shots sharp.

Gus

Good advice, Gus.. one thing that differs for Van, he'll be on a tripod, and he said the surfers were slow moving (kinda like Harry) so he MIGHT be ok with 1/500th. I like 1/1000th myself, but it's worth a try for him. You nailed the equation though, Gus - Av mode, and crank the ISO to get the shutter speeds you need.

Steve Cavigliano · January 21, 2006

Welcome Van,
It sounds like your issue is reach more than exposure settings. I 2nd the motion to get the inexpensive Tamron TC. It works very well and still allows AF. It will slow the AF down a bit, but since you will probably be 1/2 press tracking your subjects, it shouldn't be an issue. It will also change your max aperture at full tele to F8. No big deal. Depending on your light, you may need to adjust your ISO (mornings maybe ISO400/ISO800, late morning/afternoon ISO200/ISO400) to get decent speeds. The biggest issue is getting enough picture (pixel) data to work with. The extra 250mms this combo will give you should help substantially.

If you do use the TC, I'd advise you to shoot in Av mode and a wide open aperture. You can easily dial in EV Compensation to help prevent blowouts or, going the other way, to slow the speed down to better expose the rider.

I have seen some kewl slow speed shots and while they are a novelty, they can fun to take and view. So if you want to get the best color and resolution (not to mention, lowest noise) you will use the lowest ISO setting possible. If your shutter speed gets too slow, even using a wide open aperture, you don't have much choice other than to bump the ISO or do some slow speed shooting. Since your lens has IS and you pod it, this may be a fun thing to experiment with. I know I'm going to try it next time out. I'll be shooting way slower than 1/1000, using my tripod and remote release

Here are some examples of what I am talking about.

If I wasn't clear above, settings I'd start out with would be: wide open aperture (if your particular lens isn't real sharp wide open, you may want to close down 2/3 of a stop) and ISO400 @ 8AM and ISO200 @ 10AM and Noon. See what kind of speeds you get. If anywhere near 1/1000, you are OK. If too high, you can always cut back the ISO. If slower than say, 1/500 you can bump the ISO or live with the possibility of a little motion blur.

I hope this wasn't too confusing. I know it was to me....

Welcome again Van

Steve

ian408 · January 22, 2006

Aloha,

I think the 100-400 is a little soft at the extreme end of the reach. With the
TC, you'll have to watch that it doesn't degrade further. I'm gonna stick
with my 1/1500 @ f/5.6 adjusting ISO as required recommendation. Maybe a
tad OE to compensate for the shadows in the faces.

I took a look through your galleries. See what you mean about the lighting.
You've got some cool shots too.

You didn't mention your focus method. I'd suggest setting it to AI Servo
Mode or AI Focus mode. The latter will automatically switch between one
shot and servo. Shoot. Forgot to ask about the focus points. Are you using
center focus? If not, you may want to try. It will help with the number of
OOF shots

Ua Mau Ke Ea O Ka Aina I Ka Pono,
Ian

ed_h · January 22, 2006

off topic, sorry

ian408 wrote:

Ua Mau Ke Ea O Ka Aina I Ka Pono,
Ian

the life of the land is preserved in righteous.

That's something that should be kept in mind when more beachfront is ripped up for a new hotel. just a mini rant from an ex Oahu boy.

maczippy · January 22, 2006

maczippy · January 22, 2006

van · January 22, 2006

One thousand thanks...
You guys are really helpful

and I can't thank you enough for the advice. At present I plan to shoot:
on AV mode
at 5.6
with a fast shutter speed
and iso accordingly(lower # the better)
center point focusing
and EV metering (or partial?)
slight over exposure for the sun

I will keep you posted and consider yourself to have a friend in Maui.

My next thread will be to take the website to the next level:):
Many Mahalos
van
www.mauiactionphotos.com

Andy · January 22, 2006

van wrote:

You guys are really helpful and I can't thank you enough for the advice. At present I plan to shoot:
on AV mode
at 5.6
with a fast shutter speed
and iso accordingly(lower # the better)
center point focusing
and EV metering (or partial?)
slight over exposure for the sun

I will keep you posted and consider yourself to have a friend in Maui.

My next thread will be to take the website to the next level:):
Many Mahalos
van
www.mauiactionphotos.com

Van,

Evaluative Metering, with slight NEGATIVE EC - minus 1/3 to minus 2/3s should do it

van · January 23, 2006

feedback from maui surfing
Today I used all of the advice from this group at my 10AM shoot. My Tamron extender is in the mail so we shall see about f8 in the future.

In the mean time today I used

the recommended settings with my canon 20d and 100-400mm lens of:

AV Mode
Apeture 5.6
Eval metering + & - 1/3
Center point focus
Shutter Speed 1600 at -1/3 eval meter
so I decided to shoot in 100 iso with those readings.:uhoh ..

I am guessing that was the mistake in blurriness that I didn't use a higher iso maybe 200?

Tomorrow and with your advice I will try 200 iso and same settings
Aloha

Andy · January 23, 2006

van wrote:

Today I used all of the advice from this group at my 10AM shoot. My Tamron extender is in the mail so we shall see about f8 in the future.

In the mean time today I used the recommended settings with my canon 20d and 100-400mm lens of:

AV Mode
Apeture 5.6
Eval metering + & - 1/3
Center point focus
Shutter Speed 1600 at -1/3 eval meter
so I decided to shoot in 100 iso with those readings.:uhoh ..

I am guessing that was the mistake in blurriness that I didn't use a higher iso maybe 200?
Tomorrow and with your advice I will try 200 iso and same settings
Aloha

Howbout a cuppla piccies?

van · January 23, 2006

Van Surf Shots with todays setting 1/23/06
here is a shot from today that I added flash in the computer afterwards.

van · January 23, 2006

van surf shots
here is another..a headstander

van · January 23, 2006

Vans Surf shots
and another all shots are heavily cropped at 400 yards out with my 400mm lens extended...
Thanks for feedback

ian408 · January 23, 2006

I see a 600mm in your future...

Steve Cavigliano · January 24, 2006

Not bad Van

The TC will help a bit.

I think you took some of the saturation and contrast out with the fill flash action. The bigger shot #1 looks a little flat and under saturated. If you want suggestions on post processing, let us know

Steve

van · January 25, 2006

Maui update..photo fixing...settings shoot down on the water?
I would love advice on photo fixing. I use to use photoshop 5 for all of my underwater pictures (less than 30 feet); by using auto curve and auto color the pictures were great.

Now adays I use Corel's Paint Shop Photo Album 6. It is great for a number of reasons for the entire editing process as well as burning quick discs and VCDs. The thumbnails are adjustable for quick sorting into separate folders. Can't say enough about the program so for the last year I have chosen to rely on its editing tools: adding flash and "auto fix" primarily.

I do have a new version of photoshop elements if you have any advice it would be great. I am really interested in the face clarity. I use Parameter 1 on the 20d.

As for the camera settings the iso needed to go up to allow for a faster shutter. Today I shot 5.6, AV, center point, 2500 shutter, -1/3 eval. Now I am waiting for the Tamron extender and F8.

I also found that shooting down on the surfer eliminates the horizon line which may play tricks on my photo fixing software.
Thanks for any response...
www.[EMAIL="mauiactionphotos@.com"]mauiactionphotos.com[/EMAIL]
Aloha Van

Andy · January 25, 2006

van wrote:

I would love advice on photo fixing.

Start with daily dose of Photoshop Shenanigans. Also see our tutes - look up in the navbar - "how to" and click.

The best thing to do is go post a few "before" shots in Photoshop Shenanigans forum, and shout out - "Help ME Please"

You'll have tons of help and advice.

Let's recruit another Dgrinner - Surf Shots Advice

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