aperture priority vs shutter priority

greenjk · August 21, 2006

a little background i own a d200 i have a 17-55 f2.8 80-200 f2.8 80-400 f4.5 sigma 120-300 f2.8 and an sb 800 flash i am starting to shoot hs sports and was wondering which is better to use shutter priority or aperture priority also what shutter speed is minum and maxium and also what is the minum iso rating that should be used please help :slosh

greenjk · August 21, 2006

also what is minum iso rating you can use during day light hours

chuckice · August 21, 2006

you didn't mention which hs sports but your shutter speed will dictate the amount of frozen action you require.

you might just want to consider shooting manual. for example, indoor/well lit basketball I use 1/800 but I've cheated 1/400 when the action slows. you may be happy anywhere in between 1/250 and 1/800. it just depends on what you want.

once you've got that decision down you need to decide on your aperture/dof. do you want a nice tight shot at 2.8 or some more surrounding action at a higher aperture? I spend a lot time shooting at 2 or 2.8 for indoor action sports but that's just my pref.

now that you've got those two decided let your iso complete the proper exposure. if you have a 1/400 and F4 then just choose an iso that will properly expose for those two. if that forces the iso too high for your preference then tweak down the ss and/or aperture to reign in the iso.

just my 2 cents since i think you'll be much more satisfied with practicing this effort in manual mode...hope it helps...

cecilc · August 21, 2006

greenjk wrote:

... i am starting to shoot hs sports ...

The venerable Mr. Herskowitz has some good advice for you ...

I, too, would shoot in manual and NOT either TV or AV as your exposure will "adjust" depending on what you're focused on and metering on.

If you'll be specific about the sports you're shooting, we can be a little more specific with help and/or advice.

johng · August 21, 2006

Guess I'm the lone descenter.

I think it's easier to start off in Av mode (center weighted metering) for outside shooting - this way when the sun goes behind the clouds the camera automatically adjusts - in manual mode you have to adjust it yourself. When you're more experienced I agree manual mode is better. But for starting off Av is a better choice.

Now, having said that - you always need to expose for faces not backgrounds or even uniforms. This is especially true in football/baseball where faces are often in shadow. A visible face with a partially blown set of pants is much better IMO than properly exposed pants and no facial details whatsoever.

As everyone else has indicated - the necessary shutter speed depends on the sport - shooting baseball and want to freeze bat and ball motion - 1/2000 is a minimum. Softball - 1/1000. So it will depend on the sport and the affect you want to achieve.

wxwax · August 21, 2006

Good posts, guys.

chuckice · August 21, 2006

One additional note...I highly recommend against using the auto-iso feature to balance your exposure. Auto-iso is so tempting but in difficult light you rely entirely on the meter to adjust your iso around your aperture/ss. If you're getting improper meter readings based on dark subjects, weird light, etc. then your iso will be way off and blow the shot. Take test shots, get a good reading and tweak your iso up/down based on the varying light if you want to fix your aperture/ss.

chuckice · August 21, 2006

cecilc wrote:

The venerable Mr. Herskowitz has some good advice for you ...

"Venerable"!? :andy

cecilc · August 21, 2006

chuckice wrote:

"Venerable"!?

Sure ...

ven·er·a·ble [ vénnərəb'l ]

adjective Definition: 1. worthy of respect: worthy of respect as a result of great age, wisdom, remarkable achievements, or similar qualities

I thought "venerable" fit ..... well, except for the "great age" part anyway ....

:

mercphoto · August 21, 2006

greenjk wrote:

a little background i own a d200 i have a 17-55 f2.8 80-200 f2.8 80-400 f4.5 sigma 120-300 f2.8 and an sb 800 flash i am starting to shoot hs sports and was wondering which is better to use shutter priority or aperture priority

What type of sport? Stick and ball? (use Av, wide-open, 1/500 minimum) Motorsports? (use Tv, and vary to amount of motion blur you want, anywhere from 1/60 to 1/640) And I only go manual when shooting at night.

chuckice · August 21, 2006

cecilc wrote:

Sure ...

ven·er·a·ble [ vénnərəb'l ]

adjective Definition: 1. worthy of respect: worthy of respect as a result of great age, wisdom, remarkable achievements, or similar qualities

I thought "venerable" fit ..... well, except for the "great age" part anyway .... :

heh...thanks! altho the age part is creeping up on me too... :cry

goodcrna · August 21, 2006

Dont be afraid of Manual setting...

chuckice wrote:

heh...thanks! altho the age part is creeping up on me too... :cry

I shoot HS Basketball, Hockey and Volleyball.

All "Indoor" sports where the lighting is "usually" constant I shoot on Manual. Gyms vary in lighting, intensity and placement. It pays to get there a little early and shot some test shots of the kids warming up. I use my expodisc to manually set my white balance. I have been using flash when I can. Volleyball has been the slowest to get the ref's to allow the flash. I find that by talking to them before the match begins and explaining that the players really don't see the flash, they seem to agree. I also tell them that if at any time they feel the flash is bothering the players or the refs to tell me.

Volleyball: Manual, at least 1/400th (sometimes 1/250th if you anticipate the hit/return at the slowest part of the hit). I will use upto 1600 ISO. I think this is one of the hardest indoor sports to shoot. Always seems to be the worst lighting. Haven't tried the flash on stands as, there're multiple courts and matching going on. Usually no room....

Basketball: I use 2 canon 580 flash w/extended battery paks on 13' stands pointing at the key on one side of the gym. 1/640 f/6.4, ISO 800 and flashes set on full power. I adjust as needed. I use pocket wizards to trigger the flashes. Canon flash/cameras dont have a sync cable and thus can't utilize the E-TTL capabilites of the flash with the pocket wizards. Can only use for example at full power.

Hockey: Another difficult sport to shoot. I think every tungsten light in the ceiling is at a different color temperature.!!!! I get the best results on Manual. usually ISO 1600. Occassionally at 800. 1/500th. with lens wide open (smallest aperature 2.8).

Don't be afraid of manual. THe greatest advantage of manual is your camera is set to the best setting for the lighting conditions. THe lighting doesn't change (like with clouds outside). So in manual you can set it via your in camera meter and you've got the most available light you can get. Your camera doesn't "waste time" figuring the settings and then making you wait for the shot. Your already there in manual. Sorry for the babbling. I'm sure the people on here can explain it better then I. Love this forum.
Greg

xtnomad · August 22, 2006

My Two Cents
When shooting at the track ( out side sports ) I use apature priority only, as it lets me control the shutter speed with the adjustment of the apature alone with my D-50. If you watch the HI and Low warnnings in the view finder I can get to a acceptable exposer fairly quickly. I then use the ISO to get to the exposure I am looking for. The higher the ISO the more you will freeze the action and the lowwer the ISO you will get a motion blur effect or more color saturation. The only problem i am having is with very bright red colors, i can take a exposure of these colors in the pits and they look good but at track speed and the apture opened up a bit the red spectrum are a little blown out. I am now trying to control this in the camera custom settings. My goal is to get the camera settings set and have less post prosessing.

aktse · August 22, 2006

goodcrna wrote:

Hockey: Another difficult sport to shoot. I think every tungsten light in the ceiling is at a different color temperature.!!!! I get the best results on Manual. usually ISO 1600. Occassionally at 800. 1/500th. with lens wide open (smallest aperature 2.8).

I recently bought my camera to shoot hockey, and I have to say that your advice is perfect. After a bunch of trial and error, I have discovered those are best basic settings.

I have to adjust depending on the rink, and time of day if there are windows, but you're spot on!

I wished I knew this a few months ago! I'm still using apeture priority, but I can easily switch over to full manual.

-april

cecilc · August 22, 2006

goodcrna wrote:

I think this is one of the hardest indoor sports to shoot. Always seems to be the worst lighting.

Agreed ....

Fast moving ball/action; fairly compressed, tight "field" to shoot in; no flash allowed (at least, here!); inconsistent, cycling gym lights (which puts your color balance all over the place!); .... It's just a mess !

But manual is the way to go for these indoor sports .... I'm usually shooting at ISO 1600 wide open (whichever lens I'm using - but nothing above 2.8) and I usually just put the shutter at 1/400 and leave it. I'd love to be able to set a custom white balance, but with the cycling lights the white balance that you've set may or may not work the instant that you fire off a shot. So I just leave the white balance on AWB and shoot in RAW.

greenjk · August 22, 2006

800 iso
:booze is there any way to shoot iso 800 on like a hs football field with desent lighting conditions or is 1600 at that point a muss i just like the grainness that 1600 gives off

mercphoto · August 22, 2006

xtnomad wrote:

When shooting at the track ( out side sports ) I use apature priority only, as it lets me control the shutter speed

Ok, this I need an explanation of because I just don't get it. If you want to control shutter speed because you are trying to control motion blur, which apparantly you are, go for Tv mode.

greenjk · August 22, 2006

mercphoto wrote:

Ok, this I need an explanation of because I just don't get it. If you want to control shutter speed because you are trying to control motion blur, which apparantly you are, go for Tv mode.

2.8 when it gets totally dark

cecilc · August 22, 2006

greenjk wrote:

...is there any way to shoot iso 800 on like a hs football field with desent lighting conditions or is 1600 at that point a muss i just like the grainness that 1600 gives off

If you're going to shoot at ISO 800 and maintain a high enough shutter speed (1/400 and up) for sharp, non-blurry shots, then you'd have to have a minumum of "decent" lighting .... otherwise, you'll be at ISO 1600.

But judge from the lighting at the stadium you're shooting at. Certainly, if you can meter the ambient light for ISO 800; f2.8; 1/400 and you're within 1/3 stop in either direction, then all is well in the world .... (and I would take that exposure in a heart beat for hs night football !). Most of the stadiums I shoot in meter at ISO 1600; f2.8; 1/250 ....

In my opinion, maintaining shutter speed is the priority here. A sharp, non-blurry action photo with "some" noise in it beats a blurry, out-of-sync shot that has no or mininal noise in it ....

mercphoto · August 22, 2006

greenjk wrote:

2.8 when it gets totally dark

Ok, I can understand that. But even then you are NOT "controlling" shutter speed with Av mode. You are simply allowing the camera to choose the fastest possible shutter speed given the lighting conditions.

Also Cecil is absolutely correct that a noisy but otherwise sharp photo without blur beats a motion blurred photo without noise, hands down every day of the week. People get way too concerned about noise.

greenjk · August 22, 2006

compulsory flash mode does that mean a flash went off exif part of peoples pics

mercphoto · August 22, 2006

greenjk wrote:

compulsory flash mode does that mean a flash went off exif part of peoples pics

Dude that's not even a sentence. Not sure what you're asking. :shrug

xtnomad · August 22, 2006

mercphoto wrote:

Ok, this I need an explanation of because I just don't get it. If you want to control shutter speed because you are trying to control motion blur, which apparantly you are,

go for Tv mode

.

To start what is Tv mode? My Nikon D-50 does not list it in the manual. I use apature priority to control shutter speed via a thumb dial for fast ajustment, As i look thru the veiw finder I watch the shutter speed and adjust the apature up or down for the shutter speed and exposure to capture the shoot. I have found this a very useful tool on partly cloudy days when panning can change almost from rider to rider. After a little pratice I can just tell when lighting changes and two clicks down in apature I still get the shot and in reverse as the sun comes out blazing bright a few clicks up and I can keep shooting with fewer looks out of the view finder.After a pan of shots I still look at the LCD to see how the shots are coming out.

mercphoto · August 23, 2006

xtnomad wrote:

To start what is Tv mode?

Time priority mode. In aperture priority mode you set the aperture value and the camera selects a shutter speed. The opposite happens in time priority mode.

My Nikon D-50 does not list it in the manual. I use apature priority to control shutter speed via a thumb dial for fast ajustment,

No you don't. You use aperture priority to control the aperture value.

As i look thru the veiw finder I watch the shutter speed and adjust the apature up or down for the shutter speed and exposure to capture the shoot.

Its so much simpler if you TELL the camera what shutter speed you want and let it pick the aperture from that. You are making life harder on yourself than it needs to be. You are moving that wheel as lighting changes to keep a constant shutter speed when you can make the camera do that for you, automatically.

johng · August 23, 2006

mercphoto wrote:

Its so much simpler if you TELL the camera what shutter speed you want and let it pick the aperture from that. You are making life harder on yourself than it needs to be. You are moving that wheel as lighting changes to keep a constant shutter speed when you can make the camera do that for you, automatically.

The problem with this method is the camer may then pick an aperture value that increases DOF too much. This is usually undesirable for sports shots which is why TV doesn't work as well as aperture or manual mode. A great shot can easily be ruined by a car, bystanders or porta-pottie clearly visible in the background.

The truth of the matter is if you are going to shoot sports you need to be concerned about both shutter speed AND depth of field.

chuckice · August 23, 2006

johng wrote:

The problem with this method is the camer may then pick an aperture value that increases DOF too much. This is usually undesirable for sports shots which is why TV doesn't work as well as aperture or manual mode. A great shot can easily be ruined by a car, bystanders or porta-pottie clearly visible in the background.

The truth of the matter is if you are going to shoot sports you need to be concerned about both shutter speed AND depth of field.

EXACTLY! If you let the camera pick an aperture that balances your iso you let the camera decide your DOF. Choose your shutter for the action you want, set your aperture to what kind of "surroundings" you want and then balance with the iso. It's something that's so easy to do in digital and confirm in your lcd.

For ex...two similar shots with slightly different DOF. If I had used shutter priority in that much daylight I likely never would've got the second to be what I wanted....

mercphoto · August 23, 2006

johng wrote:

The problem with this method is the camer may then pick an aperture value that increases DOF too much.

Then you choose a different ISO to get that aperture back to an acceptable value. But if your main goal is to control shutter speed you do not do that with aperture priority mode. That is what I'm getting at.

If you are trying to keep a good shutter speed with an acceptable aperture, ask yourself which is more important: the depth of field or the degree of motion blur? If the former, go to Av mode, pick the aperture you need for the shot, and adjust ISO to keep an acceptable shutter speed. If the latter, pick the shutter speed you need, and adjust ISO to keep an acceeptable aperture.

HarveyMushman · August 23, 2006

greenjk wrote:

a little background i own a d200 i have a 17-55 f2.8 80-200 f2.8 80-400 f4.5 sigma 120-300 f2.8 and an sb 800 flash i am starting to shoot hs sports and was wondering which is better to use shutter priority or aperture priority also what shutter speed is minum and maxium and also what is the minum iso rating that should be used please help :slosh

It depends entirely on your subject, the effect you want to create, the story you wish to tell, and the lighting conditions with which you are presented. There is no "correct" answer to any of your questions.

I humbly suggest you educate yourself on the basics of exposure. Click on the "Books" link near the top of the screen and you'll find a couple good guides.

greenjk · August 23, 2006

next 3 days??
i am a very begginer photographer but have alot in a short amount of time from you guys going to be shooting the next 3 days high school soccer tommorow college soccer friday and semi pro football on saturday thats if i am not forced to work over off of day turn anyways thanks for the help i am going to be using my d200 and a sigma 120-300 f2.8 that i just got in today so wish me luck will be posting a link for reviews (starting to understand that low aperture are not just for night time) any last min tips would be helpful

greenjk · August 23, 2006

ooo yea
any suggestions on a camera bag that will hold my d200 120-300, 80-200, 80-400, 17-55 and a flash

xtnomad · August 23, 2006

Its so much simpler if you TELL the camera what shutter speed you want and let it pick the aperture from that.

May be a better choice of words ( I choose a Apature setting to get the in camera setting to a shutter speed closer to what I would like ). I have tried setting shutter speed and letting the camera choose a apature but a lot are under exposed. My method is saving me more time in post prossesing, so it works for me.

aperture priority vs shutter priority

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