newbie's head is a spinnin'! What to buy

mmmatt · September 13, 2006

Hello all!
My name is Matt. I should first start of by saying this is a wonderful site. So much great information here!

My story, it isn't going to be new to you folks, is that A friend has asked me to shoot her daughters wedding. Part of it was to save some money, part of it was to get me involved and be a part of the wedding, and part of it is trust that I will find a way to pull it off.

In reading various threads here I know that some will say don't do it. Well, I respect the people who do this for a living, or a supliment to their living, and I am sure that the final results will not be the same as if they dropped a couple grand on a pro. They are aware of that too, and they trust me to be professional and to produce the best quality that I can. I am basically charging them my printing costs and a few hundred to justify a camera upgrade that will allow me to pull this off. I currently have a 3.2mp p&s and a Minolta xg1 with a couple of lenses. I haven't shot manual in so long that I don't want to take a chance with it. I also like the security of digital, and the easy of editing. I will keep the xg1 for backup, and I will probably shoot with both that and the new camera for the formal shots, but otherwise it will be all about the new toy.

I have a few specific questions that will influence my decesion on what to purchase, and I'm sure that I will get many opinions on which way to go. I want any and all opinions you kind folks are willing to share with me! My budget is limited, so there will be compromises. My hope is that some of you more experienced folks will help me weigh the compromises and ultimately help me make the right decesions on what to purchase. Maybe someone even has gear they could sell me!!!

I will primarily producing 4x6 prints but I have told them we can go up to 8x10 knowing that I probably won't be able to obtain the gear necessary to produce quality much larger than that. I'm trying to keep their expectations in check because it is my goal to under promise and over deliver... I'm sure anyone of you would agree that the key to a happy client is just that!

Ok... so now that you know the background I guess I will get started on my dilema! First off is my budget. Now don't fall over!!!! I want to put together a rig for about $500. I can go as high as $600, but that will have to include an extra battery, media and maybe a few fluff dolars for whatever comes up. Ideally I would like to stay at or below $500. For the record. This is a December Wedding in WI, so it will all be indoors.

From my research, it seems as though I can do that fairly easily with a used "pro-sumer" P&S or a used 3-4yr old entry level, kit-glass dslr. The p&S that has sparked my attention is the konica-Minolta A1. Great features that will be beneficial safeguards for the wedding, and other features that will work nice for concert photo's. (My biggest passion is concert recording. I actually was linked here from www.tapersection.com ) The biggest downside to this camera from what I have read is the resolution isn't all that great. Certainly better than what I have now, but not to be compared to dslr's. The things that interst me in this one is the cost and the features. The glass is fairly fast and has a nice, "do it all" zoom (28-200mm f/2.8), it has a 3d AF system that is supposed to be wonderful, and an anti-shake feature that should allow me to shoot at a little lower shutter speed or iso which will help with the otherwise average resolution (in theroy).
The SLR's that fit into the budget are the eos 300d, Olympus e-300 or 500, fugi s1, Nikon d50, and maybe a few others. With any of the slr's I'm going to end up with kit glass that has less versitility than the P&S, and less speed, but in most cases I will end up with far better resolution. If I do a dslr I will definately have to skimp on the flash and use a lowend tilthead flash... Not sure how that will effect things. I'm assuming that I will be shooting w/o flash at the service, and the reception will be closer-up and probably less crital as far as the flash goes. For the formal shots in the church I may try to rent/borrow a couple of reflectors and some studio lights. I have seen wedding formals shot with and without, so pros-and cons in that regard would be helpful.

Here is how I see it at this point:

With the A1 I get:
28-200mm f/2.8 lens
anti-shake feature
5mp
very respectable AF
average noise performance at higher iso's
marginal resolution
A nice minolta or sigma flash
easily stay in my budget

As for the dslr's that are in my range:

Less features for the most part
far better resolution in all cases
(kit) lenses tend to be slower f/3.5 ish
lenses tend to be either 18-45mm or 28-70mm, and occasionally 70-200.
...None of which are "do it all" lenses
most are 6mp but a few are 8
high iso noise quality is all over the board from awesome to crap
all will require a compromise on the flash
all will require diligent shopping on my part to stay in budget.

so which is the lesser of 2 (2000!) evils?

For the wedding I can compromise a bit on the zoom if I'm shooting at a higher resolution. Having reso to spare and crop is a big advantage IMO. So an 8mp slr is going to be somewhat of a wash with a 5mp camera that has a stronger zoom, but can I shoot from a coutious distance with a 50 mm even with a few mp to crop? Should be fine for 4x6, but no 8x10's without some decent zoom I'm assuming. I don't want to be "dancing on the stage" during the ceremony, so the zoom is going to be a big thing if they want anything larger than a 4x6 for the service. I don't think they will want shots from the service blown up, but I will have to be very clear with them in that regard.

High performance at higher iso's is probably a wash with a faster lense (short of DOF versatility), and it will also allow me to shoot faster shuter speeds which washes any advantage of the "anti-shake". For the most part, the 8x10 shots will be shot from a tripod, and I have a fairly steady hand (for an amatuer), so although that is a nice feature of the A1, it isn't enough to hang my hat on.

So that is where I'm at... and help and advice will be greatly appreciated! Sorry this is so wordy.

matt

cmason · September 13, 2006

Sounds like you are in a 'rock and a hard place". Can't afford the gear that would likely work better, and it seems like you are not convinced that the P&S will do the job.

A few suggestions:

1) rent. You can easily rent really good lenses, and usually cameras as well at most good camera shops. This way you get the gear you think you need for the event, without the investment.

2) Purchase a used dslr body, and rent the glass. Similar compromise as above.

3) get a high end P&S, like a Canon S1/S2. There was a used S1 IS for sale here just the other day.

Of course, the lens will make a noticable difference here, and I have found a DSLR lens, even cheap ones are noticeably better than most (not all ) P&S cameras.

One other thing I have noticed with regards to shooting events like weddings, at least from my experience, is that a good flash makes a HUGE difference in quality of the shots. So a camera that supports an external flash is something I would look for in a P&S. DSLRs will all support external flash, and you should work that in your budget, though a dedicated flash will consume half your budget (back to option 1)

mmmatt · September 13, 2006

cmason wrote:

Sounds like you are in a 'rock and a hard place". Can't afford the gear that would likely work better, and it seems like you are not convinced that the P&S will do the job.

A few suggestions:

1) rent. You can easily rent really good lenses, and usually cameras as well at most good camera shops. This way you get the gear you think you need for the event, without the investment.

2) Purchase a used dslr body, and rent the glass. Similar compromise as above.

3) get a high end P&S, like a Canon S1/S2. There was a used S1 IS for sale here just the other day.

Of course, the lens will make a noticable difference here, and I have found a DSLR lens, even cheap ones are noticeably better than most (not all ) P&S cameras.

One other thing I have noticed with regards to shooting events like weddings, at least from my experience, is that a good flash makes a HUGE difference in quality of the shots. So a camera that supports an external flash is something I would look for in a P&S. DSLRs will all support external flash, and you should work that in your budget, though a dedicated flash will consume half your budget (back to option 1)

good points, and thanks for the responce. My issue with the renting thing is that ideally I would like to have the camera for a month or two to get used to it and shoot a few GB. Renting a lens leaves me with nothing but a body when the wedding is done so it kinda kills the joy of using this oppertunity to fund a new toy. I plan on working an external flash into the budget and that is a priority with a p&s or dslr, however I could possibly borrow or rent a flash. Disapointing news on the good flash comment (I assume you ment a name brand external vs a knock-off external)... As with anything, I guess you get what you pay for. I wouldn't ever consider shooting something like this with a pop-up though, I was thinking a knock-off external with a dslr or a med-high quality external for a p&s.
I haven't yet looked into the s1 or s2's so I will definately check thoes out. As for confidance in the p&s... I'm leaning that way actually. I was convinced that was the way to go untill I started reading a bunch of reviews and asking around. I know I'm not going to impress the essoteric photo crowd with my quality, but that doesn't mean I won't make the client very happy. They know what they are paying for, and they really want me to do it.

Thanks again!!!

Matt

mmmatt · September 13, 2006

ya know... as I'm racking my brain about all of this something just occured to me. I really think the A1 is going to work for me and my only worry is the resolution. How good or bad it is will only be known if I have one in my hand and shoot some with it, so I'm just going to buy one and if I don't like it I will put it back on ebay. I have time to do that at this point.
BTW the s1 and s2's don't seem to be much more than little pocket cameras. The A1 is a pretty nifty little beast.

*edit* I can't figure out how to put up a link to the minolta site w/o cut and paste!

matt

Sam · September 13, 2006

OK, I'll be the bad guy here, or the voice of reason depending on your viewpoint.

Mat!

You sound like an intelligent articulate person, yet………………………………………

You keep referring to the couple as clients. Are they friends or clients? I think this is important.

If they are clients and things go south, then all you have done failed to provide photographs for a once in a lifetime event, they will be furious, and you will never see them again. If they are friends then it’s a whole different story. If things go south, then they will be furious, you will never see them again, and you will have lost two (or more) friends.

You say “They know what they are paying for, and they really want me to do it.”

Trust me on this, they don’t know. Their perception of what they are paying for and yours are probably very different.

You have made a few statements that concern me. “Renting a lens leaves me with nothing but a body when the wedding is done so it kinda kills the joy of using this opportunity to fund a new toy.” Is this about you and your wants, or a once (hopefully) in a lifetime event for your friends?

“First off is my budget. Now don't fall over!!!! I want to put together a rig for about $500. I can go as high as $600, but that will have to include an extra battery, media and maybe a few fluff dollars for whatever comes up. Ideally I would like to stay at or below $500.”

To be realistic, this is not even close to adequate for the entire equipment purchase.

From your post it appears your not real familiar with the digital side of photography. This is a not sin by any means, but in order to produce very good digital images (beyond snapshots) will require a new set of skills, and cost a bunch.

My recommendation would be to inform your friends that you can’t be the official wedding photographer. While 2 or 3 years from now you could be a pronominal wedding photographer you aren’t one now, and are not qualified to be responsible for such a special occasion.

Let them know you will be pleased to come and get as many photos as you can, and will happy to provide them as a gift.

Stop and think about this. This is about the couples day and a very special event. Do you want too put this on the line for a few dollars?

I am not trying to be negative or nasty. These are just my thoughts.

Sam

aktse · September 13, 2006

mmmatt wrote:

My story, it isn't going to be new to you folks, is that A friend has asked me to shoot her daughters wedding. Part of it was to save some money, part of it was to get me involved and be a part of the wedding, and part of it is trust that I will find a way to pull it off.

I spent a small fortune during the past few months and bought a setup that can handle wedding photos and many other situations. However, I have read the various posts from the wonderful wedding photographers on dgrin and have admired their shots and I have realized one thing. Equipment isn’t everything… it just helps.

I wouldn’t know what to do with a wedding. I have taken great snapshots using a P&S camera and captured moments that a pro might have missed at weddings, but could never compose the shots that have shared.

It doesn’t matter if you’re a professional or something with a professional setup – do you have the experience to know what to do? Do you know what shots that you need to take? Have you ever done a full wedding before?

I know my limits and it’s currently hockey photos. I started out completely clueless, and after numerous rounds of critiques, I can now take pictures inside a hockey rink. I’m basically clueless everywhere else and I’ll admit it.

The family might trust you to do a good job, but do you trust yourself to give them something that they can be proud of? Can you handle it if they are disappointed? Many of my friends have gotten married over the past few years and the number one complaint is about the photographer and how they should have spent more money and picked someone better or provided more.

May I suggest the following? Can you be the secondary photographer? This way, you can still help out the family and supplement the other photographer photos and capture the wedding through a different perspective.

mmmatt wrote:

I know I'm not going to impress the essoteric photo crowd with my quality, but that doesn't mean I won't make the client very happy. They know what they are paying for, and they really want me to do it.

Do they really know what they're paying for? Have they seen samples of your work? I think most people don't really know what they want until they see it, or mainly, didn't see it. It sounds like they just want snapshots of the event and I have been to many weddings without a photographer other than the P&S of the guests. If this the case, then your current setup shiould work well.

mmmatt wrote:

My issue with the renting thing is that ideally I would like to have the camera for a month or two to get used to it and shoot a few GB. Renting a lens leaves me with nothing but a body when the wedding is done so it kinda kills the joy of using this oppertunity to fund a new toy.

Is your goal to take pictures of your clients/friend’s special occasion or to fund a new toy? You can rent the glass for more than one day and practice before the wedding.

As for equipment, other people know more than I do and suggest things. I just already remember what my co-workers (photography nuts) have instilled me… Alfred Stieglitz, Ansel Adam, and many, many other great photographers of the past never had digital cameras.They never worried about mega pixels, advancements of modern technology, etc. They composed pictures or captured a special moment and not just took snapshot of things.

As for me, I’m not good enough and need all the help that technology brings

mmmatt · September 14, 2006

Sam wrote:

OK, I'll be the bad guy here, or the voice of reason depending on your viewpoint.

Mat!

You sound like an intelligent articulate person, yet………………………………………

You keep referring to the couple as clients. Are they friends or clients? I think this is important.

If they are clients and things go south, then all you have done failed to provide photographs for a once in a lifetime event, they will be furious, and you will never see them again. If they are friends then it’s a whole different story. If things go south, then they will be furious, you will never see them again, and you will have lost two (or more) friends.

You say “They know what they are paying for, and they really want me to do it.”

Trust me on this, they don’t know. Their perception of what they are paying for and yours are probably very different.

You have made a few statements that concern me. “Renting a lens leaves me with nothing but a body when the wedding is done so it kinda kills the joy of using this opportunity to fund a new toy.” Is this about you and your wants, or a once (hopefully) in a lifetime event for your friends?

“First off is my budget. Now don't fall over!!!! I want to put together a rig for about $500. I can go as high as $600, but that will have to include an extra battery, media and maybe a few fluff dollars for whatever comes up. Ideally I would like to stay at or below $500.”

To be realistic, this is not even close to adequate for the entire equipment purchase.

From your post it appears your not real familiar with the digital side of photography. This is a not sin by any means, but in order to produce very good digital images (beyond snapshots) will require a new set of skills, and cost a bunch.

My recommendation would be to inform your friends that you can’t be the official wedding photographer. While 2 or 3 years from now you could be a pronominal wedding photographer you aren’t one now, and are not qualified to be responsible for such a special occasion.

Let them know you will be pleased to come and get as many photos as you can, and will happy to provide them as a gift.

Stop and think about this. This is about the couples day and a very special event. Do you want too put this on the line for a few dollars?

I am not trying to be negative or nasty. These are just my thoughts.

Sam

First of Sam, I appreciate your candor. No offence taken by any of that. I'll answer your concerns as best I can. In my usual articulate (I prefer wordy) way.

Clients or friends:
I call them clients because it is a business proposition with a contract. That is the only way I diferentiate. In writing the above posts I actually had to go back and edit that in a few places (backspace over friends and insert clients). It is funny that you pulled that out. I have thought about it, and I feel a client relationship is best. My contract is for ARCHIVAL of the wedding. I hope to deliver some great photo's but my contract is for archival. For the record, the mother of the bride is an old friend and the happy couple I don't know so well. I will be meeting with them next week to go through all of this in deatail prior to finalizing my contract with their mother.

Just say no:
A "real" wedding photographer is simply beyond their means. If it isn't me it will be another friend who is probably less experienced, or even worse a group of people with a bad case of "to many chiefs and not enough indians". Talk about stress!!! Aunt martha vs Aunt Betty... E gads!

Why me:
My contract will state a couple of important things. The most important points are that this is meant as an amateur's archival of the wedding first and foremost, second being that if it is a bust they get 100% of their $ back. I'm really not in this for the money. Can I do the kind of artistic quality a pro would do? No. I know that I can't. Can I approach this as a professional person, and get the job done? Yes I can. Can I take pictures and archive the event? Yes, I am sure I can do that. What is a complete clusterf*#k for a wedding shoot? If it is dropping a camera in a lake or a handfull of cf cards landing in the puch bowl, I think we are all equally capable of that. If it is having a few shots that are blured, or taking an extra 30 minutes for the formals, well then I'm going to probably have some of that. Probably the biggest reason I am doing digital is so that I can carefully inspect the real important shots and hopefully retake them if they suck. No I can't do that with the dad hug, or the kiss, or the cake cut, or the first dance, or the procession or any other one-time oppertunities, but I will take pictures and get the shots, and hope that they are perfect! Perfection may be a crap shoot but I am confidant I will get the shots. I have the personality to get people to have fun, I have the drive to learn what I don't know, and I have the confidance to know I can pull it off.

Pro vs hack:
I look around this site at wedding photo's you guys display and most of your proudest images (as it should be) are the artsy ones. Honestly some of them blow me away. Whoever did the one of the couple kissing under the stone arch... wow. I hope to have a few creative oppertunities that I can put to use, but an amatuer photographer, a winter wedding in Wisconsin and a dive of a reception hall are going to make me (or anyone for that matter) really work for thoes oppertunities! I plan on studying a lot of posed group formal shots, and quality closeup couple photo's because I think thoes will be the best chances for truly memorable photo's. I promise my camera will be attached to my hip for the next couple of months preparing and practicing for this. I also paln on getting in the church soon with a couple friends to test lighting and whatnot.

One for the money:
Another part of the equation is what I am willing to do for them that most reaonably priced (sane) pro's wouldn't. In addition to shooting the wedding, I will meet with them to discuss the keepers by going through the 1000+ shots I take on dvd in their living room a week or so after the event (contract will read max 100 edited). I will be doing all the cropping, I will be producing a slideshow to music on dvd (most likely one of my original recordings!). I will be setting up an unattended vid cam on a tripod to "archive" the service, and then pointing at the main table in the reception hall. I will convert thoes to dvd with a simple fade in and fade out (archival). I will provide dvd data discs of all photos unedeted, the edited versions, and the video to each of the parents and the couple for archival. I have a local camera shop set up to do the final color balancing and tweaking of my images prior to them printing because I know I don't have the software or the eyes to produce a pro ready-for-print image. One way or another, they will have record of this wedding forever... I bet I have 40 hrs into this NOT including the time I use for prep. Nope, this aint for the money!

My budget:
Yeah, I know. It is kinda funny that I am trying to pull this off with so little investment. Quite the challange, huh! When we (the mom and I) first talked, she wanted me to shoot it with my 3.2 mp pocket camera and just get her snapshots. I plan to do far better than that!

I guess that is all I have to say! Voice of reason or the bad guy... hmmm. I guess that makes me either the idiot or the savant.

matt

aktse · September 14, 2006

It sounds like you have really thought this through. And I think you'll do better than what they expected, no matter what equpiment you'll have.

Good luck! Please post some of your shots when you're done!

mmmatt · September 14, 2006

aktse wrote:

It sounds like you have really thought this through. And I think you'll do better than what they expected, no matter what equpiment you'll have.

Good luck! Please post some of your shots when you're done!

Thanks. I will post a few shots, good or bad. I hope that people will be kind enough to also look at a few pics prior to the event also to help the learning curve. I will admidt though, after seeing the kind of stuff you guys post it is pretty damn intimidating!!! You guys have far higher standards than the average joe, but that is what makes you guys good too.

To answer a couple of questions that somebody asked and (amazingly) didn't make it into my sleep inducing responce.

I have never been a primary photographer at a wedding but I have shot 2nd fiddle before with an auto 35mm Maxxum.

I like to think I have a better than avarage grip (compared to the populous, not you folks) on digital photography. I don't shoot for a living but part of my job is photographing the homes my company builds (I work for a custom home builder) and producing slide shows for our model and trade shows. Here again, not pro but I get lots of compliments from the average guy who actually sees the stuff.
Composition, posing, and the capabilities of advanced digital photo equpt is all going to be new to me. That is what brought me here!

matt

Sam · September 14, 2006

mmmatt wrote:

First of Sam, I appreciate your candor. No offence taken by any of that. I'll answer your concerns as best I can. In my usual articulate (I prefer wordy) way.

Clients or friends:
I call them clients because it is a business proposition with a contract. That is the only way I diferentiate. In writing the above posts I actually had to go back and edit that in a few places (backspace over friends and insert clients). It is funny that you pulled that out. I have thought about it, and I feel a client relationship is best. My contract is for ARCHIVAL of the wedding. I hope to deliver some great photo's but my contract is for archival. For the record, the mother of the bride is an old friend and the happy couple I don't know so well. I will be meeting with them next week to go through all of this in deatail prior to finalizing my contract with their mother.

Just say no:
A "real" wedding photographer is simply beyond their means. If it isn't me it will be another friend who is probably less experienced, or even worse a group of people with a bad case of "to many chiefs and not enough indians". Talk about stress!!! Aunt martha vs Aunt Betty... E gads!

Why me:
My contract will state a couple of important things. The most important points are that this is meant as an amateur's archival of the wedding first and foremost, second being that if it is a bust they get 100% of their $ back. I'm really not in this for the money. Can I do the kind of artistic quality a pro would do? No. I know that I can't. Can I approach this as a professional person, and get the job done? Yes I can. Can I take pictures and archive the event? Yes, I am sure I can do that. What is a complete clusterf*#k for a wedding shoot? If it is dropping a camera in a lake or a handfull of cf cards landing in the puch bowl, I think we are all equally capable of that. If it is having a few shots that are blured, or taking an extra 30 minutes for the formals, well then I'm going to probably have some of that. Probably the biggest reason I am doing digital is so that I can carefully inspect the real important shots and hopefully retake them if they suck. No I can't do that with the dad hug, or the kiss, or the cake cut, or the first dance, or the procession or any other one-time oppertunities, but I will take pictures and get the shots, and hope that they are perfect! Perfection may be a crap shoot but I am confidant I will get the shots. I have the personality to get people to have fun, I have the drive to learn what I don't know, and I have the confidance to know I can pull it off.

Pro vs hack:
I look around this site at wedding photo's you guys display and most of your proudest images (as it should be) are the artsy ones. Honestly some of them blow me away. Whoever did the one of the couple kissing under the stone arch... wow. I hope to have a few creative oppertunities that I can put to use, but an amatuer photographer, a winter wedding in Wisconsin and a dive of a reception hall are going to make me (or anyone for that matter) really work for thoes oppertunities! I plan on studying a lot of posed group formal shots, and quality closeup couple photo's because I think thoes will be the best chances for truly memorable photo's. I promise my camera will be attached to my hip for the next couple of months preparing and practicing for this. I also paln on getting in the church soon with a couple friends to test lighting and whatnot.

One for the money:
Another part of the equation is what I am willing to do for them that most reaonably priced (sane) pro's wouldn't. In addition to shooting the wedding, I will meet with them to discuss the keepers by going through the 1000+ shots I take on dvd in their living room a week or so after the event (contract will read max 100 edited). I will be doing all the cropping, I will be producing a slideshow to music on dvd (most likely one of my original recordings!). I will be setting up an unattended vid cam on a tripod to "archive" the service, and then pointing at the main table in the reception hall. I will convert thoes to dvd with a simple fade in and fade out (archival). I will provide dvd data discs of all photos unedeted, the edited versions, and the video to each of the parents and the couple for archival. I have a local camera shop set up to do the final color balancing and tweaking of my images prior to them printing because I know I don't have the software or the eyes to produce a pro ready-for-print image. One way or another, they will have record of this wedding forever... I bet I have 40 hrs into this NOT including the time I use for prep. Nope, this aint for the money!

My budget:
Yeah, I know. It is kinda funny that I am trying to pull this off with so little investment. Quite the challange, huh! When we (the mom and I) first talked, she wanted me to shoot it with my 3.2 mp pocket camera and just get her snapshots. I plan to do far better than that!

I guess that is all I have to say! Voice of reason or the bad guy... hmmm. I guess that makes me either the idiot or the savant.

matt

First, I am glad you didn't take offense to my comments. There was / is not any intent to offend.

I will admit it seems as though you have thought this out, and have a plan. I'm still not convinced you can pull it off, but I have to say you certainly have a very ambitious plan.

You pull this off the couple should be blown away!

Now for some more thoughts. It might be possible to seek out some local photography clubs, and see if anyone would be willing to help out.

You may have to give up the $500.00 or make sure all of it goes towards prints, or other direct costs sans camera. People helping out for free probably wouldn’t be happy to find out you received money (even the small $500) for the wedding.

That said if you could locate a few local photographers that would look at this as a challenge and good deed you might be amazed at the talent, and knowledge that could be made available.

Another thought, I think a high end point and shoot would be easier to use right out of the box. While a DLSR is capable of producing better images there is a steep learning curve. Unfortunately part of the learning curve involves $$. Computers, post processing software, memory cards, lenes, etc, etc, and there will be a never ending list of etc. (More than you can imagin)

Make sure you practice on people in, if possible, the church, dinning / reception hall. Low light and white balance will give you difficult shooting.

At any rate keep asking for ideas, good luck, and let us know how it all turns out.

Sam

mmmatt · September 14, 2006

mmmatt wrote:

Thanks. I will post a few shots, good or bad. I hope that people will be kind enough to also look at a few pics prior to the event also to help the learning curve. I will admidt though, after seeing the kind of stuff you guys post it is pretty damn intimidating!!! You guys have far higher standards than the average joe, but that is what makes you guys good too.

To answer a couple of questions that somebody asked and (amazingly) didn't make it into my sleep inducing responce.

I have never been a primary photographer at a wedding but I have shot 2nd fiddle before with an auto 35mm Maxxum.

I like to think I have a better than avarage grip (compared to the populous, not you folks) on digital photography. I don't shoot for a living but part of my job is photographing the homes my company builds (I work for a custom home builder) and producing slide shows for our model and trade shows. Here again, not pro but I get lots of compliments from the average guy who actually sees the stuff.
Composition, posing, and the capabilities of advanced digital photo equpt is all going to be new to me. That is what brought me here!

matt

man... sorry to be blasting out the posts here guys! A couple MORE things I feel I need to say. I forgot to say Thanks Sam for making me really think through that stuff and inspiring me to organize it a little better in my own mind! Also in retrospect it got me thinking about a few other things...

I saw posts here recommending a few books on wedding photography that I may check out, but I also thought I would crash a few to observe. That isn't wrong is it? One more guy in a peiu? (how the heck do you spell that?) I was going to ask the minister at the church that I will be shooting.

Another thought along thoes lines... what about calling a local studio or a free-lancer and offer to be his/her grunt and 2nd camera for free sometime before the wedding? Is that ever done? My real tallents are in audio... maybe I could trade some audio recording time on a video shoot or let him offer an audio recording as a bonus for a wedding he shoots that has a live band? Who would pass a deal like that up? He gets a newbie photo grunt to suck knowlege out of him for a day and cary his crap around. Then for the reception he gets a recording tech. Maybe some (most?) pros don't want to share their secrets for fear of local competition? Advice there? Is it worth a shot to ask?
I hope it didn't sound like I think I know it all... that isn't the case. I'm just bound and determined. First step, and the reason I started this thread, is to get the gear thing out of the way!

matt

mmmatt · September 14, 2006

Sam wrote:

First, I am glad you didn't take offense to my comments. There was / is not any intent to offend.

I will admit it seems as though you have thought this out, and have a plan. I'm still not convinced you can pull it off, but I have to say you certainly have a very ambitious plan.

You pull this off the couple should be blown away!

Now for some more thoughts. It might be possible to seek out some local photography clubs, and see if anyone would be willing to help out.

You may have to give up the $500.00 or make sure all of it goes towards prints, or other direct costs sans camera. People helping out for free probably wouldn’t be happy to find out you received money (even the small $500) for the wedding.

That said if you could locate a few local photographers that would look at this as a challenge and good deed you might be amazed at the talent, and knowledge that could be made available.

Another thought, I think a high end point and shoot would be easier to use right out of the box. While a DLSR is capable of producing better images there is a steep learning curve. Unfortunately part of the learning curve involves $$. Computers, post processing software, memory cards, lenes, etc, etc, and there will be a never ending list of etc. (More than you can imagin)

Make sure you practice on people in, if possible, the church, dinning / reception hall. Low light and white balance will give you difficult shooting.

At any rate keep asking for ideas, good luck, and let us know how it all turns out.

Sam

Good post Sam. Thanks for the kind words and the advice.

matt

*edit* My local camera shop is doing all the color ballancing and printing. I quoted 100 4x6 and 6 8x10's in my "verbal contract", and with all the color ballancing and printing it is costing me $130. How many prints are typical to supply? I just pulled round numbers out of the sky...

Matt

SpeshulEd · September 14, 2006

ha, hello matt, it looks like I told you about this place after you had already found it.

I didn't get a chance to read everything, but hopefully everyone here is treating you well.

Good luck with the project.

Richard · September 14, 2006

Hi Matt,

This has been an interesting thread, and I think you have gotten lots of good advice. One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is what you hope to do with photography after the wedding is over. My sense is that the Minolta you mentioned is probably going to be about as good as you can get for your budget. I have never used one, but the specs look reasonable. On the other hand, I don't know whether there is much room to grow here. Nikon and Canon systems offer a tremendous variety of lenses, flashes and other things that you can spend absurd amounts of money on without getting a new camera body. This is both a blessing and a curse, of course.

Just something else to consider. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Regards,

Scott_Quier · September 14, 2006

mmmatt wrote:

but I also thought I would crash a few to observe. That isn't wrong is it? One more guy in a peiu? (how the heck do you spell that?) I was going to ask the minister at the church that I will be shooting.

matt

I have read in a number of forums about people doing exactly this. Sit in back and do your best to be invisible, remembering that this is a special day for the B&G. If you are a distraction - family members all whispering, "Who is that...", then you have IMHO failed. But, you can learn a lot that way. You won't get into the formals shoot, but.... And you won't get to the reception either... But you have the opportunity to learn stuff.

And, I would think talking to the officiant before hand would be a very good idea.

Finally, I would love to see some practice photos. And I promise not to rake you over the coals too badly!:D

Art Scott · September 14, 2006

From an EX - A2 USER
I didn't have time to read all the posts, so if I have repeated something previously posted I appologize..........

KM's A1 is very similar to their A2 except (major difference) for the MP...A1 5mp and A2 8mp.......I used to own an A2 (wish I still did for lnadscapes and such....BUUUUUT
and that is a very big BUTTT......

The A1, 2 & 200 lack in one very essential place.....the view finder is a LCD and is very hard to use in low light situations and if you use the rear disply screen it will drain the batteries extremely quickly......

If you looking to use it for weddings or anywhere the lighting is minimal at best they are very hard to work with.....what I did when I was contracted to do a wedding was to go out and shoot people on the street moving.....I picked a spot and made a mark on the sidewalk..that was my target point...when someone neared that spot I got ready to shoot and shot as they stepped on the mark....this was always during low light times of the evening....I found that this was very hard to do because the viewfinder would only get bright for a brief moment.

In reality that was the only draw back i found with this series....i never saw the need to upgrade to an A200 since the only up grade was the rear lcd could swing out and to the side of the camera body so you could sorta see yourself for self portraits.....

I had my A2 for well over a year and never removed the screen protector from the rear screen and only sold it when I was ready to buy my 2nd KM Maxxum 7D.....but I do regret selling it as it would tuck nicely into a jacket pocket and made really great macros and that TRULY FLEXABLE focus point is fantastic for getting really creative when you need to focus in the odd point.

Since I am doing more Fine Art Photography than portraits and weddings, I will be looking for another A2 in the near future.....Since I have sold pics from my previous A2 and having the extra mp's is great when running thru Genuine Fractals to that 40 X 60 inch print that can be view from the same distance as an 8 X 10 inch print and show NO SIGNS of grain (noise)....

Try to find a good DSLR (KM Maxxum7D also have the built in anti-shake...well so does the 5D) for the wedding and portrait shooting....

Good Luck with your hunt.....

Sam · September 14, 2006

*edit* My local camera shop is doing all the color ballancing and printing. I quoted 100 4x6 and 6 8x10's in my "verbal contract", and with all the color ballancing and printing it is costing me $130. How many prints are typical to supply? I just pulled round numbers out of the sky...

Matt

I would be very carefull about relying on this. Unless you can learn to set a good white balance using jpg you may find the images to be very yellow, or other white balance issues that can be difficult to correct in post processing. I don't believe the typical auto color corrrection at a local camrea store will do an acceptible job of correcting this. Shoot some test shots under the expected conditions and see and see how they come out.

Perhaps look into shooting RAW.

I wouldn't try sneaking into any ones wedding, but if you could assist a local wedding photographer, I think you would pick up a lot.

Sounds like you have something of value with your recording equip / skills to trade.

Sam

claudermilk · September 14, 2006

Very interesting thread & good advice. In your shoes I'd go the rental route. Yeah, at the end of the day you don't have a new toy, but on that day you have the right tools for the job. Low light & fast action is really where the P&S falls apart & DSLRs come into their own. Been there, done that & thankfully I was still shooting the Maxxum 7000i as well.

One option not yet mentioned is primes. You should be able to get fast primes for less than what a consumer zoom goes for. It's a little different to use, but you get the needed speed & image quality. Something to consider.

mmmatt · September 14, 2006

SpeshulEd wrote:

ha, hello matt, it looks like I told you about this place after you had already found it.

I didn't get a chance to read everything, but hopefully everyone here is treating you well.

Good luck with the project.

heh! For the record Ed told me (before he knew I already had found it) this place is a lot like taperssection and that is a compliment from any member over there. We are a tight nit group of 16,000 members. we call em' like we see um, we question things when warranted, and mostly we try to be a part of the solution. I couldn't agree more Ed... feels almost like home!

Tons of wonderful advice here! Glad to see a little fluff from an A2 user. Art, I think I'm just going to have to make it with a p&s... I think the A1 is my best hope. HUGE advice on the shoot people on the street walking by tip. That will be a beneficial skill for sure. I'm thinking I will pick one (an A1) up on ebay and shoot it for a while and see how it works. The review I read raved about it's ability to focus in low light w/o an IR beam and didn't say anything about viewfinder issues, so that is a new curve. I still think I want to try it and see. there are so many adjustments on that thing... are you sure there isn't a way to keep the backlight up full blast?

Sam,
I plan on giving the camera store a test run. Recently on here, or another forum, I saw a pro quote a price of .40 per shot to have another pro do the ps work for her. I may go that route too. I will try to get an original of some of my samples and their print-ready version from the camera shop for you all to critque. I don't claim to have perfect eyes! I am pretty much planning on shooting RAW, but I want to do all the cropping myself and I don't want to pay for the post production on all shots. That is another little flaw in my plan. Ideally I would crop and save to RAW again so they could have max flexibility in post, but I recently learned that you can't do that. Maybe they can do the crops for me too. That whole issue will take some trial and error I think. I will be talking with them more once I get the camera and shoot some with it.
I may try calling a few studio's about getting in on a shoot. There is one local studio in particular that is awesome and big $$$. Probably the least likely to let me through the door, but probably the opportunity for the best experience. Lot's of freelance guys around too if that doesn't work.

RS,
To answer your question... I don't know what I will do after the wedding. Maybe I'll like it (shooting weddings) and want to do more of it. I don't know! I know the camera will get used at about 50 concerts a year as I'm recording audio. My dog and my 7 yr old daughter will be in front of it a lot. I will use it next time I photograph a series of homes my company builds, I will use it for better quality shots of junk I throw on ebay, I will use it for shooting insides of audio componants that I am attemting DIY modifications on but need questions answered as to what is what. Yes I would like to drop big dough on a camera and maybe I will, but until my skills get to the level of some of you folks this one sitiuation would be the only one that would come close to warranting it. It is the same with audio recording equiptment. I started with a about a $600 rig and since then I have bought and sold and bought again somewhere in the neighborhood of $15K. I don't have it all now, but I have what I need and a little bit more!

Thanks to all for such wonderful advice. I'm sure I will be soaking up more of it as time goes on!

matt

SpeshulEd · September 14, 2006

mmmatt wrote:

Yes I would like to drop big dough on a camera and maybe I will, but until my skills get to the level of some of you folks this one sitiuation would be the only one that would come close to warranting it. It is the same with audio recording equiptment. I started with a about a $600 rig and since then I have bought and sold and bought again somewhere in the neighborhood of $15K. I don't have it all now, but I have what I need and a little bit more!

Just wait Matt, this is just your introduction to expensive hobby number two! Before you know it, you'll have a bag full of lenses hanging from your other arm when you go to shows...setting up your recording rig, watching the levels for a bit, then grabbing your camera to run up front and snap off a pile pictures...then back to your gear to check on everything...back and forth and back and forth...I'm telling you man, its a vicious cycle. (but lots of fun!)

mmmatt · September 14, 2006

SpeshulEd wrote:

Just wait Matt, this is just your introduction to expensive hobby number two! Before you know it, you'll have a bag full of lenses hanging from your other arm when you go to shows...setting up your recording rig, watching the levels for a bit, then grabbing your camera to run up front and snap off a pile pictures...then back to your gear to check on everything...back and forth and back and forth...I'm telling you man, its a vicious cycle. (but lots of fun!)

yeah... that may happen

Matt

mmmatt · September 14, 2006

Art Scott wrote:

I didn't have time to read all the posts, so if I have repeated something previously posted I appologize..........

KM's A1 is very similar to their A2 except (major difference) for the MP...A1 5mp and A2 8mp.......I used to own an A2 (wish I still did for lnadscapes and such....BUUUUUT
and that is a very big BUTTT......

The A1, 2 & 200 lack in one very essential place.....the view finder is a LCD and is very hard to use in low light situations and if you use the rear disply screen it will drain the batteries extremely quickly......

If you looking to use it for weddings or anywhere the lighting is minimal at best they are very hard to work with.....what I did when I was contracted to do a wedding was to go out and shoot people on the street moving.....I picked a spot and made a mark on the sidewalk..that was my target point...when someone neared that spot I got ready to shoot and shot as they stepped on the mark....this was always during low light times of the evening....I found that this was very hard to do because the viewfinder would only get bright for a brief moment.

In reality that was the only draw back i found with this series....i never saw the need to upgrade to an A200 since the only up grade was the rear lcd could swing out and to the side of the camera body so you could sorta see yourself for self portraits.....

I had my A2 for well over a year and never removed the screen protector from the rear screen and only sold it when I was ready to buy my 2nd KM Maxxum 7D.....but I do regret selling it as it would tuck nicely into a jacket pocket and made really great macros and that TRULY FLEXABLE focus point is fantastic for getting really creative when you need to focus in the odd point.

Since I am doing more Fine Art Photography than portraits and weddings, I will be looking for another A2 in the near future.....Since I have sold pics from my previous A2 and having the extra mp's is great when running thru Genuine Fractals to that 40 X 60 inch print that can be view from the same distance as an 8 X 10 inch print and show NO SIGNS of grain (noise)....

Try to find a good DSLR (KM Maxxum7D also have the built in anti-shake...well so does the 5D) for the wedding and portrait shooting....

Good Luck with your hunt.....

Hey Art (or any other Minolta users)... gonna pick your brain for a minute! What flash did you use with your A2, and what do you use with your 7d? I can't swing the 5600 because they go in the $400 range and that just ain't gonna cut it. Both the minolta 3600 and the Sigma EF 500DG Super are in the $2-230 range and that is more my budget. Any advice there? Seems to me either would do the trick, but I really don't want to find out the hard way.

Matt

ziggy53 · September 14, 2006

Matt,

I have a Minolta A2 and it has one very nice feature, an actual PC flash connector. It is also supposed to be voltage regulated to 250V, which means you don't have to be as concerned about trigger voltage. What this means, PC connector, is that you can use a simple auto-flash instead of a dedicated flash.

Neither the A1 nor the A2 has a reputation for spectacular flash precision with a dedicated flash, so a non-dedicated auto-flash serves just fine.

I highly recommend the Sunpak 383 on a handle-mount bracket, with an adapter to convert to the PC connection. You might even look at a second unit and add a slave to it, to give a second light source when needed.

By all means, get the equipment well before hand and do some "event" photography with it, to get to know the capabilities and limitations.

I wound up strapping a small flashlight to the bottom of the A2 for low-light indoor stuff, because the focus really will hunt too much, and the camera will not fire until it thinks it found focus lock. A flashlight that is small and has a tight beam seemed best, so you can illuminate a little low so it wouldn't glare your subjects.

Neither camera (A1/A2) is reliable for perfect focus either, so count on about a 10-15 percent loss due to out-of-focus for indoor stuff especially. This really just means to shoot extra to cover the loss, and is probably acceptable. (But many of those "duds" will be fine for 4x6.)

If you can find a good used Sony F828, I think it would work better for low-light. It had a superb laser holographic system for focus assist, and rarely missed indoor focus, except for long distances.

Do put considerable emphasis on lighting and exposure. If you perfect those two things, your images will look and print much better, regardless of resolution. You may even have to learn manual exposure and manual flash to get the best results possible.

Also learn about bounce techniques and things like credit-card fill (which really does work.)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=52799&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=details_accessories&A=details&Q=&sku=52935&is=REG&addedTroughValue=52799_REG&addedTroughType=accessory_detail
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=131401&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=142741&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=52728&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation

ziggy53

mmmatt · September 14, 2006

mmmatt wrote:

Hey Art (or any other Minolta users)... gonna pick your brain for a minute! What flash did you use with your A2, and what do you use with your 7d? I can't swing the 5600 because they go in the $400 range and that just ain't gonna cut it. Both the minolta 3600 and the Sigma EF 500DG Super are in the $2-230 range and that is more my budget. Any advice there? Seems to me either would do the trick, but I really don't want to find out the hard way.

Matt

for the record I just bought an A1. I kept waivering on weather or not it will suit my needs but I won't know till I try it. The unit is referbished with a 6 mo warr, and the vendor guaranteed that it would be free from a manual focus issue that plagued about 40% of these camera's (data from a yahoo users group that I found).
Still would like some help on the flash. I can get a used 3600 "mint" from the same vendor I bought the camera from for $234 BIN shipped or a new sigma for 241 BIN shipped. Possibly the minolta for less in an auction. Any other off-names that are cheaper yet worth using?

Matt

ziggy53 · September 14, 2006

Matt,

Congrats on the A1. Be sure you go through this a couple of times for more info about these cameras:

http://www.pbase.com/mtf_foto_studies/mtf_faq

ziggy53

mmmatt · September 14, 2006

ziggy53 wrote:

Matt,

Congrats on the A1. Be sure you go through this a couple of times for more info about these cameras:

http://www.pbase.com/mtf_foto_studies/mtf_faq

ziggy53

Thanks Ziggy I knew about the dpreview site but have not been here yet.

Matt

*edit* REALLY good info here!
*edit edit* missed your post on the flash ziggy. thanks for that too! I'm used to getting a warning message if someone is posting while I am writing!

mmmatt · September 14, 2006

ziggy53 wrote:

Matt,

I have a Minolta A2 and it has one very nice feature, an actual PC flash connector. It is also supposed to be voltage regulated to 250V, which means you don't have to be as concerned about trigger voltage. What this means, PC connector, is that you can use a simple auto-flash instead of a dedicated flash.

Neither the A1 nor the A2 has a reputation for spectacular flash precision with a dedicated flash, so a non-dedicated auto-flash serves just fine.

I highly recommend the Sunpak 383 on a handle-mount bracket, with an adapter to convert to the PC connection. You might even look at a second unit and add a slave to it, to give a second light source when needed.

By all means, get the equipment well before hand and do some "event" photography with it, to get to know the capabilities and limitations.

I wound up strapping a small flashlight to the bottom of the A2 for low-light indoor stuff, because the focus really will hunt too much, and the camera will not fire until it thinks it found focus lock. A flashlight that is small and has a tight beam seemed best, so you can illuminate a little low so it wouldn't glare your subjects.

Neither camera (A1/A2) is reliable for perfect focus either, so count on about a 10-15 percent loss due to out-of-focus for indoor stuff especially. This really just means to shoot extra to cover the loss, and is probably acceptable. (But many of those "duds" will be fine for 4x6.)

If you can find a good used Sony F828, I think it would work better for low-light. It had a superb laser holographic system for focus assist, and rarely missed indoor focus, except for long distances.

Do put considerable emphasis on lighting and exposure. If you perfect those two things, your images will look and print much better, regardless of resolution. You may even have to learn manual exposure and manual flash to get the best results possible.

Also learn about bounce techniques and things like credit-card fill (which really does work.)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=52799&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=details_accessories&A=details&Q=&sku=52935&is=REG&addedTroughValue=52799_REG&addedTroughType=accessory_detail
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=131401&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=142741&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=52728&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation

ziggy53

even being my personal shopper!!! cool! One comment though. I like the idea of saving 50-100 with the sunpac flash (more memory!!!), but the sigma does have IR AF assist... would that be beneficial enough to justify the extra dough or do you still think the sunpac is going to be the ticket?

Matt

ziggy53 · September 14, 2006

mmmatt wrote:

even being my personal shopper!!! cool! One comment though. I like the idea of saving 50-100 with the sunpac flash (more memory!!!), but the sigma does have IR AF assist... would that be beneficial enough to justify the extra dough or do you still think the sunpac is going to be the ticket?

Matt

You would probably eventually find this, but I've been through it so many times, from the KM Fax:

"The Minolta flashguns are fully compatible with the Ax except that the autofocus assist lights do not illuminate with the Ax (the Sigma unit does not provide an autofocus assist light when used with the Ax either). The 5600 is more powerful and fully featured than the 3600, but is more expensive."

Bummer huh?

ziggy53

mmmatt · September 14, 2006

ziggy53 wrote:

You would probably eventually find this, but I've been through it so many times, from the KM Fax:

"The Minolta flashguns are fully compatible with the Ax except that the autofocus assist lights do not illuminate with the Ax (the Sigma unit does not provide an autofocus assist light when used with the Ax either). The 5600 is more powerful and fully featured than the 3600, but is more expensive."

Bummer huh?

ziggy53

bummer yes, but I'm glad you have a good memory!!! Sunpak and a 2gb 150x card it is!!!
another stupid question. When shooting from a tripod I don't need to remove the braket to mount right? Do all/most bars have a threaded insert for the tripod. sorry so stupid, I've never shot with a braket before.

matt

ziggy53 · September 14, 2006

mmmatt wrote:

bummer yes, but I'm glad you have a good memory!!! Sunpak and a 2gb 150x card it is!!!
another stupid question. When shooting from a tripod I don't need to remove the braket to mount right? Do all/most bars have a threaded insert for the tripod. sorry so stupid, I've never shot with a braket before.

matt

Some do, some don't. I've been know to drill and tap a bracket when needed. Do what you gotta do.

ziggy53

mmmatt · September 15, 2006

ziggy53 wrote:

Some do, some don't. I've been know to drill and tap a bracket when needed. Do what you gotta do.

ziggy53

mr stardust... you can play guitar.

thanks for all the help.

matt

newbie's head is a spinnin'! What to buy

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