A fear of high ISO...

Elaine · December 7, 2006

OK...I admit it...I'm afraid of using ISO's higher than 100 or 200! Will someone please gently tell me that it's OK to use higher ISO's and that they are there for a reason?! I guess I just think that if I or someone else wants an 8x10 or 11x14 print of a picture taken with an ISO of 400+ that it won't look nice. How wrong am I? I need to be set free to use all of my camera! I know some people get fed up with this sort of issue, but I'm really trying to learn here! Thanks for the help!

Elaine

Andy · December 7, 2006

Elaine wrote:

OK...I admit it...I'm afraid of using ISO's higher than 100 or 200! Will someone please gently tell me that it's OK to use higher ISO's and that they are there for a reason?! I guess I just think that if I or someone else wants an 8x10 or 11x14 print of a picture taken with an ISO of 400+ that it won't look nice. How wrong am I? I need to be set free to use all of my camera! I know some people get fed up with this sort of issue, but I'm really trying to learn here! Thanks for the help!

Elaine

Hi Elaine,

It's mostly the uninformed, measurebators that will tell you this. Most pros that I know, are not shy about using the ISO needed for the job. I know one, Paul Bowen, he's one of Canon's explorers of light - he shoots at ISO 1250 nearly all the time on his Air-to-Air stuff.

Today's cameras can hack it. Mostly. I can't speak to your KM, from personal experience, but from what I can see of the samples I've found, it's pretty good. Certainly don't be shy of ISO 400 and 800.

The key to high iso shooting is in the exposure and the processing. Watch for blown highlights, and don't expect to shoot a flea farting in the dark, and have the shadows be totally noise free. But a typical shot that has a subject, and a scene, it'll be fine. Even the shadow areas.

Here's an ISO 3200 shot, and click these links for some 100% crops:
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/53071718-L.jpg
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/53071704-L.jpg

So, go out there, and enjoy the dark side. Get yourself some nice fast glass (f/1.8 or faster) and have a great time in the dark!

Elaine · December 7, 2006

Thanks, and another thing...
Thank you for the encouragement and the samples! I do have a 50mm f/1.7 that I have not used very much. Today I pulled it out and played a bit. I realized that I should have been giving that lens a try for some indoor portrait type shots I've been doing lately (for friends' Christmas cards). Most of my recent subjects have included wiggly kids, so bumping the ISO would be very helpful, but I've been a big chicken.

My other frustration is regarding getting sharp focus with shallow DOF. (I have the 50mm f/1.7, a 28-75mm f/2.8 and the 70-210 f/4). I recently sent my camera in for some work because I have an extremely difficult time achieving focus in the right spot, especially at wider apertures, with all my lenses, except the kit lens which I haven't used in a long time (18-70mm f/3.5-5.6). I didn't notice this problem until I got the faster glass. I look through the lens, choose a focus point, don't move, click, and the sharpest point in the picture is about 1-2 inches in front of where I chose it to be and where it looked to be in my viewfinder. This is especially an issue at f/5.6 and wider. This is incredibly disappointing when I focus on a child's eyes and their shirt sleeve is more sharp than their eyes and face! My camera is back from the shop now and I'm trying to determine if what's happening is the camera or me (I'm guessing it's at least some operator error).

Do I need to learn to be more patient when shooting with such shallow DOF? Is a tripod recommended, at least with a still subject? I think I have pretty steady hands and my anti-shake, but maybe I expect too much for speeds below 1/30? Do I need to get better at pressing the shutter AS SOON AS I've acquired focus? All of the above...any more I should know? I just want my kid's eyes to be clear when I think that's what I've focused on.

Any other thoughts or pointers?

I really appreciate it!

Elaine

gus · December 8, 2006

All ISO 800.....what grain

http://wadjelaphotography.smugmug.com/photos/111942440-L.jpg
http://wadjelaphotography.smugmug.com/photos/111943078-L.jpg
http://wadjelaphotography.smugmug.com/photos/111947536-L.jpg
http://wadjelaphotography.smugmug.com/photos/111949276-L.jpg
http://wadjelaphotography.smugmug.com/photos/111945874-L.jpg
http://wadjelaphotography.smugmug.com/photos/111948564-L.jpg

...and the last at 1250
http://wadjelaphotography.smugmug.com/photos/111948952-L.jpg

The moral here...do not loose a great shot to the fear of a little noise.

thebigsky · December 8, 2006

Elaine,

I used to suffer from the same fear of high ISO's as you, initially from memory of early digital cameras which were very noisy regardless of how well you exposed the image.

However most modern digital cameras are considerably better and I now regularly use my Canon 5D at an ISO of 800, the trick is to get the exposure right so you don't have to try and push the image in PP.

If you underexpose an image at a high ISO and then try and crank up the exposure in PP you'll still get lots of noise.

Charlie

claudermilk · December 8, 2006

I am totally fearless with high ISO. :heh Check the dance section of my site--virtually all those are shot at ISO3200 and around f1.2-f2.8.

That is one of the biggest reasons selecting the DSLR body I did (20D). It just takes some practice to get good results--both with the camera and in post processing for dealing with whatever noise you do get.

Elaine · December 8, 2006

gus wrote:

All ISO 800.....what grain

http://wadjelaphotography.smugmug.com/photos/111942440-L.jpg
http://wadjelaphotography.smugmug.com/photos/111943078-L.jpg
http://wadjelaphotography.smugmug.com/photos/111947536-L.jpg
http://wadjelaphotography.smugmug.com/photos/111949276-L.jpg
http://wadjelaphotography.smugmug.com/photos/111945874-L.jpg
http://wadjelaphotography.smugmug.com/photos/111948564-L.jpg

...and the last at 1250
http://wadjelaphotography.smugmug.com/photos/111948952-L.jpg

The moral here...do not loose a great shot to the fear of a little noise.

Thanks for the great examples! I'm feeling better now!

James C · December 8, 2006

So, let's say we use a high ISO and get a little noise. What are some ways to remove said noise in photoshop?

Elaine · December 8, 2006

thebigsky wrote:

Elaine,

I used to suffer from the same fear of high ISO's as you, initially from memory of early digital cameras which were very noisy regardless of how well you exposed the image.

However most modern digital cameras are considerably better and I now regularly use my Canon 5D at an ISO of 800, the trick is to get the exposure right so you don't have to try and push the image in PP.

If you underexpose an image at a high ISO and then try and crank up the exposure in PP you'll still get lots of noise.

Charlie

Yay! I'm not alone! Glad to hear you pushed through. Yes, getting proper exposure (and proper focus) is my main goal at the moment...I don't want to "salvage" every other photo I take, especially if a higher ISO was used. Thanks!

Elaine · December 8, 2006

claudermilk wrote:

I am totally fearless with high ISO. :heh Check the dance section of my site--virtually all those are shot at ISO3200 and around f1.2-f2.8. That is one of the biggest reasons selecting the DSLR body I did (20D). It just takes some practice to get good results--both with the camera and in post processing for dealing with whatever noise you do get.

Thanks! Yes, it takes practice...I'm slowly getting there! Thanks for the great examples, too.

Elaine · December 8, 2006

James C wrote:

So, let's say we use a high ISO and get a little noise. What are some ways to remove said noise in photoshop?

Yeah...do most people have a noise reducing software, or what?

Andyman · December 8, 2006

I don't know about regular noise, but the best way (to me) to remove color noise is to convert the photo to LAB color in PS and apply a small gaussien blur to the A and B channels.

andymillson · December 8, 2006

I agree with all the above! If the pictures worth taking then a litle noise is bearable. I have taken pictures when with friends that they wouldn't take using ISO 800 or higher. They missed out!

A flea farting in the dark......My day is shot, Gonna have that image in my mind all afternoon now

colourbox · December 8, 2006

High ISO is OK, but just make sure you're doing it right.

Do it on the right camera. I would never use high ISO on my point and shoot because I know how bad it is. On my Canon XT, ISO 800 is no problem, and 1600 is fine in a pinch.

Do not underexpose your images. That will result in greatly increased noise. If you are at or above the typical exposure (without blowing highlights), you will get better high ISO images.

wxwax · December 8, 2006

colourbox wrote:

High ISO is OK, but just make sure you're doing it right.

Do it on the right camera. I would never use high ISO on my point and shoot because I know how bad it is. On my Canon XT, ISO 800 is no problem, and 1600 is fine in a pinch.

Do not underexpose your images. That will result in greatly increased noise. If you are at or above the typical exposure (without blowing highlights), you will get better high ISO images.

Roger that. The key to shooting high ISO is to get a perfect exposure in camera.

Any post processing is going to bring out noise, so you don't want to be messing around with exposure levels in your computer.

gus · December 8, 2006

colourbox wrote:

Do not underexpose your images. That will result in greatly increased noise. If you are at or above the typical exposure (without blowing highlights), you will get better high ISO images.

Oh yeah...very important point.

Elaine · December 8, 2006

Thanks everyone! I guess I need to practice getting proper exposure, which I want to do better anyway. I don't like having to salvage pictures!

Justiceiro · December 8, 2006

Elaine wrote:

Thanks everyone! I guess I need to practice getting proper exposure, which I want to do better anyway. I don't like having to salvage pictures!

OK, check this one out:

Here's the dat Model: Canon EOS 20D Size: 1205x1521 Bytes: 151078 Aperture: f/32.0 ISO: 400 Focal Length: 190mm (guess: 202mm in 35mm) Exposure Time: 13s (13/1) Flash: Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode Exposure Program: Aperture priority Exposure Bias: 0 ExposureMode: 0

First off, I see the dust on the sensor, that's not the issue (I can clone it out anyway). But when I print it out at 5x7, then peer closely at the minaret, I believe I am seeing a shade of color noise. Granted, its a crop, from this:

Even so, I would expect it to be better at ISO 400, and it usually is. Is this an exposure problem? Or is it because I didn't use the long exposure noise reduction feature (the shutter speed is 13 seconds).

Shay Stephens · December 11, 2006

Embrace the noise

Elaine wrote:

OK...I admit it...I'm afraid of using ISO's higher than 100 or 200!

Fear is the mind killer. A photographer relies on the mind to do the creative and technical work of photography. One needs to embrace noise, use it, learn to work with it and get the best from it. By avoiding it, you keep yourself walled off from a world of creativity and joy.

Photography is filled with artifacts of the mechanics of capturing an image. It adds character, depth, tangibility (is that a word?). Be expunging photography of every last artifact, you sterilize it and wind up with McPhotos, that, while they may get the job done, won't reach great heights of novelty and emotion the way an imperfect image can and historically has.

Where would we be if chefs avoided burning things, where would we get BBQ ribs, caramel, or grilled cheese sandwiches? What if musicians avoided all audio distortion? Would Jimi Hindrix have been as interesting to listen to? Ever hear of Picasso or Dali? I don't think I need to elaborate more on that particular path for you to get the idea

Don't be afraid to use and explore any optical flaw the camera can produce. They are tools for the photographer to use as they see fit. Spend a month shooting nothing but ISO 3200 and I guarantee you will discover a whole new world photographically.

Just remember, embrace the noise!

ISO 3200 and looks great printed!

Elaine · December 11, 2006

Thank you for that, Shay!

sirsloop · December 12, 2006

Spot on exposure is the key to shooting high iso. If you underexpose it and have to compensate using an editor...grain city. Damn that white horse, white shirt, white car, white anything! HAHA!! If I see a white ANYTHING i'll pump in +2/3 EV or it will underexpose.

Given the opportuninty I'll shoot as low of iso as possible, but frequently end up shooting 800 or even 1600 in some cases at horse shows. Shutter speed is #1 priority for me there, as a blurry photo is not as good (actually - worthless) as a sharp photo with a little noise. Out of all the prints I've sold that were high iso (most of them), I think the few that had problems and were reprinted were caused by autocolor oversaturating the grass or some sort of pre-proofing-feature issue like crop or minor color adjustments that I was unable to make before print. I NEVER got a complaint about any noise.

As far as removing noise, I use software called neat image. It works well to reduce the amount of noise thats in the photo when used modestly. If you over-do it, a horse starts looking like a plastic toy, and cloud gradients turn into different areas of white seperated by a line.

claudermilk · December 12, 2006

For high-contrast situations like that (in my case a pale dancer in a white costume on a black stage for example :splat), I'll do one of two things. One, make CERTAIN my metering is only on them, which can be hard with a 20D. or two, whip out the light meter and take a general reading, then run camera in Manual mode & take a couple test shots to verify the exposure. I have gotten good results with that. In really tough situations, I've even resorted to taking the fully-automated 20D and switching everything off, thus turning it into a full-manual SLR--having the option is nice.

LiquidAir · December 12, 2006

Some mantras: Pixels are cheap. Experiment. Noise is better than motion blur. Some of the best light is not very bright.

A sample:

ISO 1600, f/1.4, 1/60s, overhead fluorescent lighting.

Shay Stephens · December 13, 2006

LiquidAir wrote:

Some mantras: Pixels are cheap. Experiment. Noise is better than motion blur. Some of the best light is not very bright.

A sample:

ISO 1600, f/1.4, 1/60s, overhead fluorescent lighting.

Freakin' sweet pic man!!! I love that one!

erich6 · December 13, 2006

At my cousin's wedding in P.R. I was able to go out to the balcony of the reception hall and take this picture of the harbor. Shot at ISO 800 handheld. I didn't have a tripod so I wouldn't have been able to get this without camera shake if I shot at a lower ISO.

Erich

erich6 · December 13, 2006

At the aquarium I was able to take these pictures of jellyfish handheld because I shot with ISO 1600:

High ISO is your friend.

Erich

claudermilk · December 13, 2006

erich6 wrote:

At the aquarium I was able to take these pictures of jellyfish handheld because I shot with ISO 1600:

High ISO is your friend.

Erich

Don't you love the looks from the P&S folks who just took a picture of their flash in there? It's always the "aww, that guy's flash didn't go off, he didn't get anything" look.

dunno To which I always respond with the smug "I know you just got a flash reflection shot & boy will you be disappointed later" look.

Great shots, btw.

kschmeits@charter.net · December 14, 2006

A fear of high ISO...
I hate using a flash... and I am a firm believer in using high ISO's to compensate for low light. I don't think I have used 3200 to often for fear of too much noise.

I need to try 3200. I think the last time I tried it, I was under exposed and had a hard time "fixing" it in Adobe. So my to do is to give it another try. Going from 1600 to 3200 would give me 3 clicks of shutter speed to play with. (going from shutter speed of 1/60 to 1/120 when moving ISO from 1600 to 3200)

Keep in mind sometimes it is very difficult to get the right exposure. For most applications where there is little movement you can drop the shutter speed down below 1/100. But for motor sports (sprint cars and go-karts in my case) dropping below 1/100 on the shutter speed takes a really steady hand and good panning skills. (see go kart shot attached - shot at 1600 F2.8 and 1/60

I like the point about shooting 3200 for a month. You hate to screw up a shoot practicing something like that... but the point is valid.

Elaine · December 15, 2006

Thank you to everyone who posted incredible high ISO pics! You have provided excellent proof that it's better to get the picture than be afraid of a little noise. I feel braver now!

Elaine

LiquidAir · December 15, 2006

Shay Stephens wrote:

Freakin' sweet pic man!!! I love that one!

Thanks. I am blessed with a son that I love to take pictures of. He continually challenges me to improve my camera techniqe.

ziggy53 · December 15, 2006

LiquidAir wrote:

Thanks. I am blessed with a son that I love to take pictures of. He continually challenges me to improve my camera techniqe.

Remember that blessing for later. My kids are more grown, and ... well ... you'll find out.

:D:D

ziggy53

A fear of high ISO...

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