I HATE the new features

chaosdsm · January 27, 2007

That's right, I HATE the new smugmug features. Mousing over a photo for info is not exactly intuitive for a lot of inexperience users, & having the mouse over window open on top of the photo is annoying at best. Is there any way for me (pro account) to revert back to the old ways??? Photo size links below in the open where any user of any experience level can easily see them. Also, where are my easy links???

I may be looking for a new photo hosting site if I cannot revert.

Andy · January 27, 2007

chaosdsm wrote:

That's right, I HATE the new smugmug features. Mousing over a photo for info is not exactly intuitive for a lot of inexperience users, & having the mouse over window open on top of the photo is annoying at best. Is there any way for me (pro account) to revert back to the old ways??? Photo size links below in the open where any user of any experience level can easily see them. Also, where are my easy links???

I may be looking for a new photo hosting site if I cannot revert.

Hi, if you give us your SmugMug site we can help answer all your questions.

I'm sorry you are upset about the changes. Let's see if we can help you?

Share links? http://www.smugmug.com/help/photo-community

Andy · January 27, 2007

Hi,

I see you are a professional account holder. Most things can be completely customized to your liking

Have a look at the photobar now, for example:
http://chaosdsm.smugmug.com/gallery/1817384#98919323

I made it so it comes out on the bottom, off of the photo.

The "share" links are now by a button, above your photo. Once you go to the email or share page of your choice, we'll remember that preference.

The sizes links, are on the photobar.

Does any of this help? Let us know

JamesJWeg · January 27, 2007

Somehow everytime this happens the SM staff seem to miss the fact the we the cutomer do NOT want to have to waste a day learning stuff we have no use for just to keep our site as we liked it. You want to make changes, fine but make them a option not the default. What would have been so hard about leave people's sites alone and adding a new style that people could go to if they wanted?

James.

AnneMcBean · January 27, 2007

JamesJWeg wrote:

Somehow everytime this happens the SM staff seem to miss the fact the we the cutomer do NOT want to have to waste a day learning stuff we have no use for just to keep our site as we liked it. You want to make changes, fine but make them a option not the default. What would have been so hard about leave people's sites alone and adding a new style that people could go to if they wanted?

James.

Hi James,

Please keep in mind that "we the customer" includes a LOT of different people. The majority of whom have had overwhelmingly positive things to say about the new changes (especially now that we've got the kinks ironed out).

Change can be hard, but we always keep those with customized sites in mind. We take care to put hooks in the code so you can move the photobar, keep forcing SmugMug small, change the delay time on the photobar, etc. We take care to let you know in advance of major changes so that you can test your customization to make sure nothing breaks. If anything does break, we bend over backwards to help you get your site looking just right.

However, we know that SmugMug is not for everyone.

We will continue to keep improving the site, adding new features, adding speed, cleaning things up, etc. If you would prefer a photo-sharing site that stays just as it was the day you signed up, I would suggest looking elsewhere because we are not the right site for you. I mean that in the most friendly, honest way possible. We'd love for you to stay, but if change upsets you... you'll be happier elsewhere.

Here are just a few of the things about SmugMug that won't change:

We won't stop obsessing about the viewing experience. We want to show your photos, big and beautiful, online.

We won't ever stop listening to our customers. We believe your feedback is golden (the good and the bad). This means working to implement feature requests... like we did in this latest release.

We won't ever let our customer support be anything but exceptional.

All the best,

Anne

JamesJWeg · January 27, 2007

You still completly miss the point, change is not a bad thing, being forced to waste a day fixing the awful looking colors etc is the issue. Have you stopped to think about how many people don't have the time or ability to get thier site back to the clean look that it once had? How you can call that puke green color and pop-ups over the photos clean I do not understand. You say that most people like it, why is it then that when I ask non-smugmug people to take a look at the default SM vs a cleaned up customized site without the nasty green color crap (usually others in addtion to mine), that NONE of them like the SM style, many even comment (unpromted) about the green being so unpleasant. Last time around that you'll screwed around with stuff like this I got this same line from your staff and took a secound thought about it to see if you were right. That was when I decided to do an informal poll of end-users (not SM account holders) about the look and feel of the default SM sites to see if I was really out in left field as was implied by your staff. I found the opposite, most did not like the default SM look at all. Fyi several of the SM account holders that I know in person have told me flat out that they are too intimidated by certain people to express thier feelings about the changes to the default SM look and feel on DGrin, and they do NOT like those changes. Have you polled your account holders in a setting outside of dgrin about things like this? maybe I've missed it but I have yet to see you request input in a place that they don't have to be subjected to arrogant people on dgrin telling them how wrong they are. Also take a look at what people change when they customize thier site, how many keep the aweful green color?

James.

JamesJWeg · January 27, 2007

Also the reasons why I am still here is that dispite these issues I still see SM as offering a better service than anyone else I can find. The main reason why I am hot is that the time I have had to waste on doing away with that nasty green crap has cost me well more then the SM account does to begin with.

James.

System · January 27, 2007

Please keep in mind that "we the customer" includes a LOT of different people.

Yes, Anne, it does. And frankly, from my watching of the commentary since the beta went live, about 60% of the stuff I've seen from people can be broadly characterized, IMO, as "there are about 7 potential audiences for a SmugMug hosted site, and I feel you've forgotten about *mine*".

Having not customized my own, fresh caught Pro site, I can see some of the things Papajay mentioned in a different thread -- most notably the fact that, for non-logged in visitors to my site, the Home link doesn't go where it's reasonable for them to expect it to -- to *my* home page -- and the Help link goes to a Help page which is only de minimis tuned for *that* audience: only the first link "how do I buy prints and stuff" is really intended for them.

All of the rest of that help page is intended for the audience "people who have already signed up with Smug" -- who, in general, wouldn't be *going* to Help as non-logged-in users.

Non-logged-in users are the audience of several different people: they might be clients of a Pro; they might be friends or family of a Basic or Power user, they might be people who like to hang around the 'photo community' that SmugMug wants to encourage. Or they might be random search-engine users.

All of those potential users have slightly different expectations of the site -- some in groupings where their expectations are *roughly* similar, granted -- but *none* of them, I think, would expect Home and Help to mean what, in fact, they mean.

Hell, I'm one of those pros, and *I* try to use Home to navigate up to the top of my site when I'm not logged in.

Now, this doesn't necessarily address James' specific issue so much as it does those ones in the other thread started by Papajay (in which Andy kinda handwaved :-}), but it also seems to be a viewpoint I don't see addressed much by staff, or embodied much in certain parts of the site.

Part of the problem, too, I think, is that the new-feature beta was run primarily (so far as I can see) with *subscribers* -- did you run some bystanders by the beta that I didn't hear about?

On James' specific point, as someone who took a hit from the new code (SiteMeter worked exactly like I wanted it to before, and now it won't correctly count my site wanderers), I can agree with his point: *that* audience (for the rework) was for *site operators*, and only indirectly for *their* audiences.

And on a site as customizable as SmugMug, and as extensively customized, at *least* an opt-out cutover, if not an opt-in one, seems indicated when the primary audience are the ones paying the bills.

This point has been made, to one or another degree of clarity, by at least half a dozen people just in the threads that I've been watching. But I can't say I've really seen a formal staff/management reply addressing it.

And, clearly, I think it's a topic that someone should sit down and give some thought to a reply upon. :-)

My sister notes "Well, perhaps this is something you should have considered before spending money on a site with 'smug' in its name."

I hope she's wrong.

[ Edited to add: I note that "Home" has quietly been replaced with "Your Photos" on logged-out interior pages, somewhere in the last 48 hours or so while I wasn't looking. I applaud that, although, as I allude to above, that may not be the best generic phrasing for that link text. ]

DavidTO · January 27, 2007

Wow. Amazing how clear it is that you can't please all of the people all of the time. I like the new features.

The one thing I got from imageinc's post that I REALLY like is having different help for logged out/logged in. That's a great idea. Better than great, it's fantastic.

Andy · January 27, 2007

JamesJWeg wrote:

You still completly miss the point.

Hi James - thanks for posting

We know that there will be a few who resist or don't like this. We've gone out of our way to allow customizing of the experience for power and pro customers. But the overwhelming response thus far has been opposite of what you report. We have received gobs of email at SmugMug - and almost all of it in support of the recent changes.

I'm sorry it's not working for you. If you'd like some personalized customization help, I'm happy to assign one of our specialists to work with you and get your site working the way you like.

By the way, we learned our lesson on "the green" - now we have over 40 themes on the site for folks to choose from! We learned our lesson from last year's lightbox launch - where we stumbled, got great feedback, and then implemented changes fast. This release, we put it out for public beta for nearly 7 weeks, and solicited LOTS of feedback from our customers. And 10 days before launch, we put a note to every Smugger that this change was coming, and how to see it, and how to give us feedback. And we made TONS of changes to the system based on that feedback during the public beta.

We are an extremly open company, have been, and will continue to be. Customer feedback is our nutrition - and we crave and savor it. We want yours, too!

Andy · January 27, 2007

DavidTO wrote:

Wow. Amazing how clear it is that you can't please all of the people all of the time. I like the new features.

The one thing I got from imageinc's post that I REALLY like is having different help for logged out/logged in. That's a great idea. Better than great, it's fantastic.

Anne, Baldy, Ben and I have been talking about this all day. We've got some ideas cooking already. Go, Anne, Go

Andy · January 27, 2007

imageinc wrote:

Having not customized my own, fresh caught Pro site,

imageinc, if you'd like some personal customizing help, just holler to our help desk, ATTN: Andy - and I'll get one of our customizing specialists, or me, to get you going on a site you'll be thrilled with

http://www.smugmug.com/help/emailreal

Now, this doesn't necessarily address James' specific issue so much as it does those ones in the other thread started by Papajay (in which Andy kinda handwaved :-}),

We can't possible address every single posting here on dgrin - though I try. KNOW this - we read this and devour this input. We are discussing this very post, nights/weekends, so that we can improve the company - it's how we've built a company that so many love and admire, and recommend to their friends, family, and associates.

And on a site as customizable as SmugMug, and as extensively customized, at *least* an opt-out cutover, if not an opt-in one, seems indicated when the primary audience are the ones paying the bills.

We had a public beta for 7 weeks. Customizers could see exactly what their site would look like. We announced this in our release notes, and here on the forum, and then closer to launch (10 days advance?) by system message to all subscribers. There was plenty of time for folks to see it.

This point has been made, to one or another degree of clarity, by at least half a dozen people just in the threads that I've been watching. But I can't say I've really seen a formal staff/management reply addressing it.

Really? Check my posting history for the past week or so. Check Onethumb's, too. (He's our CEO and Chief Geek).

And, clearly, I think it's a topic that someone should sit down and give some thought to a reply upon. :-)

We do. We discuss it internally, and we discuss it on SmugChat with our clients. Hey, why not join us? http://smugmug.jot.com - our public wiki has the info - scroll to the bottom of the first page.

And here's an example: http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=52600

[ Edited to add: I note that "Home" has quietly been replaced with "Your Photos" on logged-out interior pages, somewhere in the last 48 hours or so while I wasn't looking. I applaud that, although, as I allude to above, that may not be the best generic phrasing for that link text. ]

Nothing quiet about it, I'm afraid. It's been like that for years. "your photos" shows when you are logged in, and always has. We didn't change that at all.

Thanks for posting!

JamesJWeg · January 27, 2007

Andy, if you learned from "the green" why is still slammed in my face? How do I remove it from the share photo link? Control Panel? Shopping cart? Yes. the control panel, I find that color worse than unpleasant, and find myself avoiding the control panel. I know the themes are there, that was a wonderful idea, however there are many things that the theme does not affect. Why should I have to learn stuff that I have no use for just to clean the green off my page? Why is that text color not a single variable so that it can be changed at once instead of have to spend so much time poking through the site finding everywhere that it is and setting it?

James.

dogwood · January 27, 2007

JamesJWeg wrote:

Andy, if you learned from "the green" why is still slammed in my face? How do I remove it from the share photo link? Control Panel? Shopping cart? Yes. the control panel, I find that color worse than unpleasant, and find myself avoiding the control panel. I know the themes are there, that was a wonderful idea, however there are many things that the theme does not affect. Why should I have to learn stuff that I have no use for just to clean the green off my page? Why is that text color not a single variable so that it can be changed at once instead of have to spend so much time poking through the site finding everywhere that it is and setting it?

James.

I like the new features. Well, except for the photobar, but that took me about five seconds to disable.

Have you priced other on-line photo services that offer features like smugmug? I just did a quick google search and found one that was $250 for a set-up fee, plus $350 a year. You couldn't use it to sell prints or downloads either-- it was portfolio only. The big-name portfolio sites start at $1000 a year for a basic account. Personally, I can overlook the green text in my control panel if it saves me hundreds of dollars a year.

JamesJWeg · January 27, 2007

I have priced them, which is why I am still here, still that is no reason for SM to do stuff like that. "overlooking" something that they are doing wrong does not help them be better, letting them know about it does, too many people just keep thier feelings to themselves until the point when they just leave from the build up.

James.

dogwood wrote:

I like the new features. Well, except for the photobar, but that took me about five seconds to disable.

Have you priced other on-line photo services that offer features like smugmug? I just did a quick google search and found one that was $250 for a set-up fee, plus $350 a year. You couldn't use it to sell prints or downloads either-- it was portfolio only. The big-name portfolio sites start at $1000 a year for a basic account. Personally, I can overlook the green text in my control panel if it saves me hundreds of dollars a year.

Andy · January 27, 2007

JamesJWeg wrote:

Why is that text color not a single variable so that it can be changed at once instead of have to spend so much time poking through the site finding everywhere that it is and setting it?

James.

Oh. You weren't specific before about the non-user pages. Sure, there's green there. I can't say I've seen any complaints to speak of, about that...Your visitors won't see those pages. Your suggestion about a text color toggle switch sounds neat, you could make that in our feature requests forum

Andy · January 27, 2007

JamesJWeg wrote:

still that is no reason for SM to do stuff like that. "overlooking" something that they are doing wrong does not help them be be

Sorry, what did we overlook?

jfriend · January 27, 2007

JamesJWeg wrote:

I have priced them, which is why I am still here, still that is no reason for SM to do stuff like that. "overlooking" something that they are doing wrong does not help them be better, letting them know about it does, too many people just keep thier feelings to themselves until the point when they just leave from the build up.

James.

James, I'm wondering why you're being so angry here. Feedback is being absorbed. Folks are listening. It sounds like some changes are already being contemplated based on this thread. Nobody is perfect, but at least here, you have a chance to be heard by people who can actually make or recommend specific changes and who want to make the service better.

I've personally had many disagreements with Smugmug personnel, usually when they get defensive about something that could actually be made better than it is. But, I've also had many of my suggestions implemented in the actual service, some in less than 24 hours. Try finding many other internet services at this price point where that happens.

So, if you can remain constructive and make specific suggestions for improving the service, they will listen and some of them will get incorporated over time. You can vent or be angry if you want, but in my experience, that's rarely the most effective way to be heard.

j-bo · January 27, 2007

being forced to waste a day fixing the awful looking colors etc is the issue

Changes are nice. As far as having to change anything, I didn't have to do a thing. Maybe it's user error?

Why not take their offer of help and get over your frustrations.

Thanks smugmug.

DavidTO · January 27, 2007

jfriend wrote:

I've also had many of my suggestions implemented in the actual service, some in less than 24 hours. Try finding many other internet services at this price point where that happens.

I doubt you could find this service at any price point....

JamesJWeg · January 27, 2007

I was refering to SM customers "overlooking" as in ignoring things that they don't like and the fact that it does not help you make the site better.

James.

Andy wrote:

Sorry, what did we overlook?

peestandingup · January 27, 2007

jfriend wrote:

James, I'm wondering why you're being so angry here. Feedback is being absorbed. Folks are listening. It sounds like some changes are already being contemplated based on this thread. Nobody is perfect, but at least here, you have a chance to be heard by people who can actually make or recommend specific changes and who want to make the service better.

I've personally had many disagreements with Smugmug personnel, usually when they get defensive about something that could actually be made better than it is. But, I've also had many of my suggestions implemented in the actual service, some in less than 24 hours. Try finding many other internet services at this price point where that happens.

So, if you can remain constructive and make specific suggestions for improving the service, they will listen and some of them will get incorporated over time. You can vent or be angry if you want, but in my experience, that's rarely the most effective way to be heard.

To me, it sounds like he wants to make changes to his site without a lot of fuss, like coming to dgrin to hunt for css code to make things look/do what he wants them to.

Is that it, James??

Andy · January 27, 2007

JamesJWeg wrote:

I was refering to SM customers "overlooking" as in ignoring things that they don't like and the fact that it does not help you make the site better.

James.

Jury's still out, for sure, but the evidence thus far is that folks are finding it. Thanks!

JamesJWeg · January 27, 2007

I guess I am just sick of being told that I am the only one with said feelings when I know I am not alone. Another part of it is that #&@# green color, when SM first used it I nicly expressed what I thought about it and basicaly was told I was the only one in the world that didn't like it, and something was wrong with me if I really left that badly about it. The way that green color made me feel was so extreeme that I started looking into research on why I would feel that way from it, guess what, I'm not alone. Here is a quote from this article

"Among the intermediate hues, the blue-green elicited the highest number of positive responses (81.6%), followed by red-purple (76.5%), yellow-red (75.4%), and purple-blue (65.3%). On the contrary, the color green-yellow elicited the highest number (71.4%) of negative emotional responses because it elicited the feelings of sickness and disgust."

The way I was treated by some one dgrin and smugmug staff about it has left me with a rather sour taste for them. At that time when I learned this info about the fact that it was rather common for people to harsly dislike that type of color I tried to shared it with SM staff and was basically laughed at. Honestly the only two reasons I am here still is ADVRider and price.

James.

jfriend wrote:

James, I'm wondering why you're being so angry here. Feedback is being absorbed. Folks are listening. It sounds like some changes are already being contemplated based on this thread. Nobody is perfect, but at least here, you have a chance to be heard by people who can actually make or recommend specific changes and who want to make the service better.

I've personally had many disagreements with Smugmug personnel, usually when they get defensive about something that could actually be made better than it is. But, I've also had many of my suggestions implemented in the actual service, some in less than 24 hours. Try finding many other internet services at this price point where that happens.

So, if you can remain constructive and make specific suggestions for improving the service, they will listen and some of them will get incorporated over time. You can vent or be angry if you want, but in my experience, that's rarely the most effective way to be heard.

JamesJWeg · January 27, 2007

Andy you still miss my point on that, I must not be stating it too clearly, I was talking SM account holders who are unhappy with certain things not expressing thier feels to SM. And that doing so does not help SM make the site better.

James.

Andy wrote:

Jury's still out, for sure, but the evidence thus far is that folks are finding it. Thanks!

JamesJWeg · January 27, 2007

That is another angle that I tried to get SM to listen to before. Why do they not do a whitepaper on what the differant parts are named and how it works. Why do I have to dig through dgrin and dig through ID and Class details in my browser to figure out how to do what I want. I use sites like ADC and MSDN on a daily basis for work, I guess I get annoyed that I have to go to a forum and waste hours to find basic stuff info to get the site back to what I had.

James.

peestandingup wrote:

To me, it sounds like he wants to make changes to his site without a lot of fuss, like coming to dgrin to hunt for css code to make things look/do what he wants them to.

Is that it, James??

Andy · January 27, 2007

JamesJWeg wrote:

I guess I am just sick of being told that I am the only one with said feelings

I did not say that

I said that we don't really get complaints about the green on the tools, control panel, etc pages. But I *did* say, that your toggle idea for different color, was a neat one, and that you should put it in our features request thread. That way, we've got it with the other feature requests. Who knows, maybe we'll be able to give you a toggle, so that you won't have to have a painful experience when you are looking at your control panel. Thanks again for posting - this is valuable input and we really appreciate it!

Andy · January 27, 2007

JamesJWeg wrote:

Andy you still miss my point on that, I must not be stating it too clearly, I was talking SM account holders who are unhappy with certain things not expressing thier feels to SM. And that doing so does not help SM make the site better.

James.

They should post here, or write the help desk

We *want* to hear from them! Remember too, that we have a couple hundred thousand customers, and millions and millions of daily visitors. We listen to all feedback, we crave it in fact- but we can't possibly honor every single request.

Thanks again for helping us out here!

Andy · January 27, 2007

JamesJWeg wrote:

That is another angle that I tried to get SM to listen to before. Why do they not do a whitepaper on what the differant parts are named and how it works. Why do I have to dig through dgrin and dig through ID and Class details in my browser to figure out how to do what I want. I use sites like ADC and MSDN on a daily basis for work, I guess I get annoyed that I have to go to a forum and waste hours to find basic stuff info to get the site back to what I had.

James.

James, you've been around Dgrin long enough to know we have a customizing forum. And I, our staff, and the Dgrin customizing community have helped thousands here. We have TONS of resources, faqs and help sections.

http://smugmug.jot.com/Customization
http://www.dgrin.com/forumdisplay.php?f=31
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=26043
http://www.smugmug.com/help/customize-faq.mg
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=20742

YES, it's alot. BUT YES, we've never, ever failed to help someone customize, who has come here and asked for help. Not ONCE. Not ever. Can we do an even better job? You bet. And that is why:

We Constantly Ask For Better Ways To Do It.

Please do share your requests and ideas, there. We're trying James, every single day, to make self-service easier. I've been in the customer business for 25 years, and I've never seen the type of service delivered here, anywhere else. Blowing our own horn? You bet, I'm darn proud of what we do here. Yes, we can do better.

Have you asked for customing help? Been let down? If so, I'd like to know about it. Would you like help? I'd like to give it to you.

Thanks for posting!

JamesJWeg · January 27, 2007

I was not aware of the jot.com site until I stumbled accross it earlier today. I went to the help look looking for something like that in the past, but nothing like that is there. That is not exactly what I was hunting for but a heck of a lot better than what I had found before. One key thing to remember, some of us don't get the time to surf dgrin everyday. Now if SM just had something that detailed and a little more readable (I am having a hard time reading his yellow on white example text) it would be great.

James.

Andy · January 27, 2007

JamesJWeg wrote:

I was not aware of the jot.com site until I stumbled accross it earlier today. I went to the help look looking for something like that in the past, but nothing like that is there. That is not exactly what I was hunting for but a heck of a lot better than what I had found before. One key thing to remember, some of us don't get the time to surf dgrin everyday. Now if SM just had something that detailed and a little more readable (I am having a hard time reading his yellow on white example text) it would be great.

James.

look at the footer of www.smugmug.com or any of those pages you hate with the green

there's a link to the wiki - been there for months...

James, please please hear me: WE are working on it. Did you see the linked thread above? The one where we are soliciting this advice? Please give it to us, there.

Thanks!

I HATE the new features

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