Could you tell her something like "I'm sorry to hear that you aren't happy with the shots as they are. Unfortunatley without doing quite a bit of digital manipulation of the images I have no way to fix things that the camera exaggerated. Is that something you would like me to consider?"
If you say it this way you put most of the blame on the camera, as something that is not her fault, but something that is out of your control. It also leaves it up to her as to whether she would like you to "liquify" things. Of course, we know that these problems are not with the camera, but by stating it to her this way it avoids causing major problems.
Seriously, I know this is not reasonable for every photo, but read an article recently in Photoshop User by Kevin Ames on this topic. I don't remember the steps (and the article is at home)-- but in general it was using a selection and the marquee tool and transform tool to stretch just the body out. I tried it just for fun on a size zero model who obviously didn't need to get skinnier, and though it made her WAY too thin, I could see it being useful in other situations. You can usually charge for extra post-work... so it all depends on how much PS you want to do. Maybe Bridezilla would be willing to pay you extra for a little stretching in an image or two?
Could you tell her something like "I'm sorry to hear that you aren't happy with the shots as they are. Unfortunatley without doing quite a bit of digital manipulation of the images I have no way to fix things that the camera exaggerated. Is that something you would like me to consider?"
No that is wrong. It gives her the false idea that it was the photographers fault. It was not the camera that exaggerated anything. And I suspect no amount of post processing will ever make her happy. Your best bet is to just lay it out honestly. This is not your fault. Would you blame me if it was a rainy day and the photos didn't show blue sky? No. I might be able to post process a few for a fee, but there is no guarantee you will like those either. But that is not my fault.
You are just going to have to learn to say no and not take responsibility for her vanity. Point her in the direction of the photos that you think look great because of expression, interaction, or just because they look cool. Get her mind off herself and on to what is really important. The photographic coverage of the wedding and her friends and family.
There is also an old scam out there where they feign utter dispair because the photos are sooo terrible, and demand discounts and freebies. If you feed into that, be preparred to refund almost everything. They get everything for a dime, you're left holding the bag, and they could care less about destroying you.
Creator of Dgrin's "Last Photographer Standing" contest
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
No that is wrong. It gives her the false idea that it was the photographers fault. It was not the camera that exaggerated anything. And I suspect no amount of post processing will ever make her happy. Your best bet is to just lay it out honestly. This is not your fault. Would you blame me if it was a rainy day and the photos didn't show blue sky? No. I might be able to post process a few for a fee, but there is no guarantee you will like those either. But that is not my fault.
You are just going to have to learn to say no and not take responsibility for her vanity. Point her in the direction of the photos that you think look great because of expression, interaction, or just because they look cool. Get her mind off herself and on to what is really important. The photographic coverage of the wedding and her friends and family.
There is also an old scam out there where they feign utter dispair because the photos are sooo terrible, and demand discounts and freebies. If you feed into that, be preparred to refund almost everything. They get everything for a dime, you're left holding the bag, and they could care less about destroying you.
Only because people don't like to say no. And that is where stress comes from. Saying yes, when you really want to say no. You can eliminate the stress by just biting the bullet and saying no. There is some initial pain, but it doesn't last as long as it would by saying yes
Creator of Dgrin's "Last Photographer Standing" contest
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
No that is wrong. It gives her the false idea that it was the photographers fault. It was not the camera that exaggerated anything. And I suspect no amount of post processing will ever make her happy. Your best bet is to just lay it out honestly. This is not your fault. Would you blame me if it was a rainy day and the photos didn't show blue sky? No. I might be able to post process a few for a fee, but there is no guarantee you will like those either. But that is not my fault.
You are just going to have to learn to say no and not take responsibility for her vanity. Point her in the direction of the photos that you think look great because of expression, interaction, or just because they look cool. Get her mind off herself and on to what is really important. The photographic coverage of the wedding and her friends and family.
There is also an old scam out there where they feign utter dispair because the photos are sooo terrible, and demand discounts and freebies. If you feed into that, be preparred to refund almost everything. They get everything for a dime, you're left holding the bag, and they could care less about destroying you.
Shay is hitting the nail on the head.
Do NOT accept the blame for her looking overweight, the camera does not add 10 pounds, krispy cremes do. However, she is your customer and there is no need to be harsh or rude. Help her see the good things about the images, but dont refund anything.
I recently shot engagement pictures for a couple. She was quite heavy. He was not. I tried to shoot angles that did not emphasize her weight. SHe also seemed very comfortable being who she is and was ver happy with the images.
You do what you can, try to flatter the subject, and hope they are happy. Any expectations beyond that are unreasonable.
Shay, great insight and advice in this thread. Thank you for sharing this with everyone! I think it helps to hear from a true Pro (a pro in more than one way).
Only because people don't like to say no. And that is where stress comes from. Saying yes, when you really want to say no. You can eliminate the stress by just biting the bullet and saying no. There is some initial pain, but it doesn't last as long as it would by saying yes
TAKE SHAYS ADVICE ON THIS!!! I did for the first time a few weeks ago, and it felt great! Today, I actually said no twice and it was (almost) as if I'd lost 10 pounds.
I find the quicker I say no, or let it be known I'm not open for negotiation, the opposing party quickly shifts attitude to what will make ME happy. I have gotten more business in the last two weeks from simply saying no. Even when it doesn't make me look good. I met with a client a few weeks ago and the bride asked me silly questions like what model of camera do I use (she didn't even understand what a dSLR was). then her fiance asked me yesterday if they could see more examples of weddings I'd done. Since I've not done many, and only show my best work, I said "No." Today I got a check in the mail for $500 deposit and a signed contract. It's fantabulous.
If the bride wants a photo retouched and you need some help with it, feel free to send me a link with the original file and I'll see what I can do for you.
Only caveat is that I would need it soon since my wife's scheduled to give birth this Friday. Otherwise, I won't be able to work on it for about a week.
What you might be getting out of this post is that
Professionals don't buy into this response. If she's fat she's fat no matter what you do. And as has been mentioned, I feel that she has an ulterior motive. Money returned, free images, etc.
Again, those of us that are in the business just raise an eyebrow and think "here it comes". We've all heard it before. BS
No that is wrong. It gives her the false idea that it was the photographers fault. It was not the camera that exaggerated anything. And I suspect no amount of post processing will ever make her happy. Your best bet is to just lay it out honestly. This is not your fault. Would you blame me if it was a rainy day and the photos didn't show blue sky? No. I might be able to post process a few for a fee, but there is no guarantee you will like those either. But that is not my fault.
You are just going to have to learn to say no and not take responsibility for her vanity. Point her in the direction of the photos that you think look great because of expression, interaction, or just because they look cool. Get her mind off herself and on to what is really important. The photographic coverage of the wedding and her friends and family.
There is also an old scam out there where they feign utter dispair because the photos are sooo terrible, and demand discounts and freebies. If you feed into that, be preparred to refund almost everything. They get everything for a dime, you're left holding the bag, and they could care less about destroying you.
I think this is great advice. But for someone (like myself) that has the hardest time saying "no" because they want to try to make EVERYONE happy (which I am now realizing is impossible), how do you suggest you do it. I know you should just start off saying it. Sometimes I get myself sooo overbooked in work and life that I get snippy to people and feel all around horrible. So when you have someone who has a complaint you can't fix or wants you to do something you don't want to do and they won't compromise, do you say no and lose a customer and maybe lose potential customers that they bad mouth you too? Or do you go out of your way after they refuse to compromise and do what they want to keep your customer happy? Where do you draw the line? I'm just starting my own business on the side but am a portrait photographer for a company, so I reall ydo get myself into some jams...lol. Also, Great thread I have found it very helpful!:help
well i must admit that the responses i've gotten have definitely run the gamut of possible responses. from the borderline mean to the point of absurdity to sound, reasonable advice.
fortunately, no extreme was reached and overall, she's now happy with most of the images. i ended up doing some cropping here and there and many of those long full and 3/4 lenth portrait shots got cropped to just bust shots. changing the perspective a little CAN go a long way.
I think this is great advice. But for someone (like myself) that has the hardest time saying "no" because they want to try to make EVERYONE happy (which I am now realizing is impossible), how do you suggest you do it. I know you should just start off saying it. Sometimes I get myself sooo overbooked in work and life that I get snippy to people and feel all around horrible. So when you have someone who has a complaint you can't fix or wants you to do something you don't want to do and they won't compromise, do you say no and lose a customer and maybe lose potential customers that they bad mouth you too? Or do you go out of your way after they refuse to compromise and do what they want to keep your customer happy? Where do you draw the line? I'm just starting my own business on the side but am a portrait photographer for a company, so I reall ydo get myself into some jams...lol. Also, Great thread I have found it very helpful!:help
It's really very simple. Compromise where you can and are willing, but when you hit the wall of what you can't do and can't go past, then say no. Life is full of boundaries. People respect true boundaries, but they are pretty sharp at detecting artificial boundaries. So when you say no, mean it. It has to be for a real reason that you can, if need be, explain clearly. But if you don't even know why you are saying no, then the client will pick up on that.
"will you post process all these photos to make me look like Princess Lea"
I'm sorry, no, that just isn't possible.
"Why not, they do it all the time in the movies"
Movies have multi-million dollar budgets. Now if you have a budget that can handle that kind of thing, we might be able to arrange something.
"No way, I just want my hair all fancy looking"
We could call in a hair stylist
"Does that cost extra"
Yes, would you like a price quote? I could get one in a few hours.
"No, I just want to look like princess lea"
I'm sorry, there is nothing I can do.
"Well then I think I'll just go to Hunko Photo and get my pictures done
there, what do you think of that?"
I think that is a great idea. Hunko does some very nice work. I hope your pictures come out stunning!
The above story is not real, but it is very similar to stuff you might encounter. The key is to know where your limitation lay, and where their limitations lay too. Be open to offer solutions, but don't be tricked into financing their fantasies. If they want to look like princess lea, they are going to pay for it, not you.
And if it comes to the point where there is nothing more you can do for them, end it. Wish them well and point them in the right direction if necessary. You can't land every job. You will loose some clients. Be willing to accept that and let that happen. It keeps you from sinking into the mindset of the shady used car salesman that will do and say anything to make a sale.
Not everyone is your client. There is a subset of client out there that is ideally suited to you. Spend your time and effort to search them out. Market to them. Attract them.
When I have a wedding meeting with a bride, it is as much an interview of me as it is of the them. Do they want to work with me, do I want to work with them. On occasion, I don't. There is always that uncomfortable period where they can't believe you are saying no to them, but it ends quickly, and we both wind up better off in the end. They have a chance to find a photographer better suited to them, and I find a client that is better suited to me as well.
When it comes to saying no, trust your gut instinct. Just do it.
Creator of Dgrin's "Last Photographer Standing" contest
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
she made no requests beforehand regarding trying to get a more flattering view of her. i tried my best to zip around and get different images of varying perspectives of her. i.e. partially covered by the groom so that just half of her is showing, but smiling.)
it got tough at the reception when she says "get a closeup with me and ___"
oye.
I'm wondering if it's a good idea for the photographer to ask before hand if the couple is unhappy with their weight instead of waiting? To have the bride or groom snap back, "What? You think I'm fat?!?"
I actually think I'd prefer that.
I know 5'7" 100lbs woman that thinks she is fat and I pick on her for when she speaks of dieting etc...
Canon 40D : Canon 400D : Canon Elan 7NE : Canon 580EX : 2 x Canon 430EX : Canon 24-70 f2.8L : Canon 70-200mm f/2.8L USM : Canon 28-135mm f/3.5 IS : 18-55mm f/3.5 : 4GB Sandisk Extreme III : 2GB Sandisk Extreme III : 2 x 1GB Sandisk Ultra II : Sekonik L358
It's really very simple. Compromise where you can and are willing, but when you hit the wall of what you can't do and can't go past, then say no. Life is full of boundaries. People respect true boundaries, but they are pretty sharp at detecting artificial boundaries. So when you say no, mean it. It has to be for a real reason that you can, if need be, explain clearly. But if you don't even know why you are saying no, then the client will pick up on that.
[/i]
The above story is not real, but it is very similar to stuff you might encounter. The key is to know where your limitation lay, and where their limitations lay too. Be open to offer solutions, but don't be tricked into financing their fantasies. If they want to look like princess lea, they are going to pay for it, not you.
And if it comes to the point where there is nothing more you can do for them, end it. Wish them well and point them in the right direction if necessary. You can't land every job. You will loose some clients. Be willing to accept that and let that happen. It keeps you from sinking into the mindset of the shady used car salesman that will do and say anything to make a sale.
Not everyone is your client. There is a subset of client out there that is ideally suited to you. Spend your time and effort to search them out. Market to them. Attract them.
When I have a wedding meeting with a bride, it is as much an interview of me as it is of the them. Do they want to work with me, do I want to work with them. On occasion, I don't. There is always that uncomfortable period where they can't believe you are saying no to them, but it ends quickly, and we both wind up better off in the end. They have a chance to find a photographer better suited to them, and I find a client that is better suited to me as well.
When it comes to saying no, trust your gut instinct. Just do it.
shay, you make a very good point. i agree wholeheartedly. i used to have an IT consulting business and employing the same overall mindset, i turned down potential clients.
a certain chemistry has to exist for what makes a "potential client" into a "client." if the two do not see eye to eye to begin with there's going to be problems in the long run.
the reason why this became an issue to me is because it came as such a surprise. there was no prior indication that this type of response would ever arise. they're in the proofing process right now; i should hear back within the next couple of days which ones she wants and which she wants nixed. i'll go from there.
Comments
*i* know that
*you* know that
somehow my cameras are supposed to magically fix those things though.
- my photography: www.dangin.com
- my blog: www.dangin.com/blog
- follow me on twitter: @danginphoto
Now you need to let the bride know that too.
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
hence the question: what do i tell her?
- my photography: www.dangin.com
- my blog: www.dangin.com/blog
- follow me on twitter: @danginphoto
If you say it this way you put most of the blame on the camera, as something that is not her fault, but something that is out of your control. It also leaves it up to her as to whether she would like you to "liquify" things. Of course, we know that these problems are not with the camera, but by stating it to her this way it avoids causing major problems.
Seriously, I know this is not reasonable for every photo, but read an article recently in Photoshop User by Kevin Ames on this topic. I don't remember the steps (and the article is at home)-- but in general it was using a selection and the marquee tool and transform tool to stretch just the body out. I tried it just for fun on a size zero model who obviously didn't need to get skinnier, and though it made her WAY too thin, I could see it being useful in other situations. You can usually charge for extra post-work... so it all depends on how much PS you want to do. Maybe Bridezilla would be willing to pay you extra for a little stretching in an image or two?
Here's my before sample:
Here's my after sample:
Portland, Oregon Photographer Pete Springer
website blog instagram facebook g+
No that is wrong. It gives her the false idea that it was the photographers fault. It was not the camera that exaggerated anything. And I suspect no amount of post processing will ever make her happy. Your best bet is to just lay it out honestly. This is not your fault. Would you blame me if it was a rainy day and the photos didn't show blue sky? No. I might be able to post process a few for a fee, but there is no guarantee you will like those either. But that is not my fault.
You are just going to have to learn to say no and not take responsibility for her vanity. Point her in the direction of the photos that you think look great because of expression, interaction, or just because they look cool. Get her mind off herself and on to what is really important. The photographic coverage of the wedding and her friends and family.
There is also an old scam out there where they feign utter dispair because the photos are sooo terrible, and demand discounts and freebies. If you feed into that, be preparred to refund almost everything. They get everything for a dime, you're left holding the bag, and they could care less about destroying you.
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
Very true... This is a toughie!!
Only because people don't like to say no. And that is where stress comes from. Saying yes, when you really want to say no. You can eliminate the stress by just biting the bullet and saying no. There is some initial pain, but it doesn't last as long as it would by saying yes
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
Shay is hitting the nail on the head.
Do NOT accept the blame for her looking overweight, the camera does not add 10 pounds, krispy cremes do. However, she is your customer and there is no need to be harsh or rude. Help her see the good things about the images, but dont refund anything.
I recently shot engagement pictures for a couple. She was quite heavy. He was not. I tried to shoot angles that did not emphasize her weight. SHe also seemed very comfortable being who she is and was ver happy with the images.
You do what you can, try to flatter the subject, and hope they are happy. Any expectations beyond that are unreasonable.
Glass: >Sigma 17-35mm,f2.8-4 DG >Tamron 28-75mm,f2.8 >Canon 100mm 2.8 Macro >Canon 70-200mm,f2.8L IS >Canon 200mm,f2.8L
Flash: >550EX >Sigma EF-500 DG Super >studio strobes
Sites: Jim Mitte Photography - Livingston Sports Photos - Brighton Football Photos
TAKE SHAYS ADVICE ON THIS!!! I did for the first time a few weeks ago, and it felt great! Today, I actually said no twice and it was (almost) as if I'd lost 10 pounds.
I find the quicker I say no, or let it be known I'm not open for negotiation, the opposing party quickly shifts attitude to what will make ME happy. I have gotten more business in the last two weeks from simply saying no. Even when it doesn't make me look good. I met with a client a few weeks ago and the bride asked me silly questions like what model of camera do I use (she didn't even understand what a dSLR was). then her fiance asked me yesterday if they could see more examples of weddings I'd done. Since I've not done many, and only show my best work, I said "No." Today I got a check in the mail for $500 deposit and a signed contract. It's fantabulous.
50mm 1.4, 85mm 1.8, 24-70 2.8L, 35mm 1.4L, 135mm f2L
ST-E2 Transmitter + (3) 580 EXII + radio poppers
If the bride wants a photo retouched and you need some help with it, feel free to send me a link with the original file and I'll see what I can do for you.
Only caveat is that I would need it soon since my wife's scheduled to give birth this Friday. Otherwise, I won't be able to work on it for about a week.
Nikos
Professionals don't buy into this response. If she's fat she's fat no matter what you do. And as has been mentioned, I feel that she has an ulterior motive. Money returned, free images, etc.
Again, those of us that are in the business just raise an eyebrow and think "here it comes". We've all heard it before. BS
I think this is great advice. But for someone (like myself) that has the hardest time saying "no" because they want to try to make EVERYONE happy (which I am now realizing is impossible), how do you suggest you do it. I know you should just start off saying it. Sometimes I get myself sooo overbooked in work and life that I get snippy to people and feel all around horrible. So when you have someone who has a complaint you can't fix or wants you to do something you don't want to do and they won't compromise, do you say no and lose a customer and maybe lose potential customers that they bad mouth you too? Or do you go out of your way after they refuse to compromise and do what they want to keep your customer happy? Where do you draw the line? I'm just starting my own business on the side but am a portrait photographer for a company, so I reall ydo get myself into some jams...lol. Also, Great thread I have found it very helpful!:help
fortunately, no extreme was reached and overall, she's now happy with most of the images. i ended up doing some cropping here and there and many of those long full and 3/4 lenth portrait shots got cropped to just bust shots. changing the perspective a little CAN go a long way.
- my photography: www.dangin.com
- my blog: www.dangin.com/blog
- follow me on twitter: @danginphoto
It's really very simple. Compromise where you can and are willing, but when you hit the wall of what you can't do and can't go past, then say no. Life is full of boundaries. People respect true boundaries, but they are pretty sharp at detecting artificial boundaries. So when you say no, mean it. It has to be for a real reason that you can, if need be, explain clearly. But if you don't even know why you are saying no, then the client will pick up on that.
The above story is not real, but it is very similar to stuff you might encounter. The key is to know where your limitation lay, and where their limitations lay too. Be open to offer solutions, but don't be tricked into financing their fantasies. If they want to look like princess lea, they are going to pay for it, not you.
And if it comes to the point where there is nothing more you can do for them, end it. Wish them well and point them in the right direction if necessary. You can't land every job. You will loose some clients. Be willing to accept that and let that happen. It keeps you from sinking into the mindset of the shady used car salesman that will do and say anything to make a sale.
Not everyone is your client. There is a subset of client out there that is ideally suited to you. Spend your time and effort to search them out. Market to them. Attract them.
When I have a wedding meeting with a bride, it is as much an interview of me as it is of the them. Do they want to work with me, do I want to work with them. On occasion, I don't. There is always that uncomfortable period where they can't believe you are saying no to them, but it ends quickly, and we both wind up better off in the end. They have a chance to find a photographer better suited to them, and I find a client that is better suited to me as well.
When it comes to saying no, trust your gut instinct. Just do it.
"Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
Really great advice, Shay. Thank you for posting this.
Portland, Oregon Photographer Pete Springer
website blog instagram facebook g+
I'm wondering if it's a good idea for the photographer to ask before hand if the couple is unhappy with their weight instead of waiting? To have the bride or groom snap back, "What? You think I'm fat?!?"
I actually think I'd prefer that.
I know 5'7" 100lbs woman that thinks she is fat and I pick on her for when she speaks of dieting etc...
dak.smugmug.com
shay, you make a very good point. i agree wholeheartedly. i used to have an IT consulting business and employing the same overall mindset, i turned down potential clients.
a certain chemistry has to exist for what makes a "potential client" into a "client." if the two do not see eye to eye to begin with there's going to be problems in the long run.
the reason why this became an issue to me is because it came as such a surprise. there was no prior indication that this type of response would ever arise. they're in the proofing process right now; i should hear back within the next couple of days which ones she wants and which she wants nixed. i'll go from there.
- my photography: www.dangin.com
- my blog: www.dangin.com/blog
- follow me on twitter: @danginphoto