The Open Vote question

cdhames · May 29, 2007

Is this the best way to judge a contest? It seems to me that such a method only guarantees a biased, skewed result. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, and honestly have no-one in mind; I am just offering my observation. But it seems to me that it depends more on "How Many Friends" you have willing to lend their vote to you, then on quality of product. I admit I have seen some questionable winners in this forum, (and also some very deserving ones) and up until now I have given to them the benefit of my doubt. But every time I find myself contemplating an entry, I think about this. I hope I am not impinging on anyone's professional integrity, and if so I apologize. But I know people, and I know how some people react when there is money, or prizes to be had. And I know that some people network far better than others. What do you folks think about it?

davev · May 29, 2007

I've been around around here for awhile now, and have won a couple of the old style challenges, and been up there for a couple of others.
I think the people on here are pretty honest and will vote for what they think is the best shot.
Just look what happened in the last week or two with the competitors in this challenge. Everyone helping each other, critiquing each others shots.
That's how this thing has been set up. For us to learn what to do with our cameras, and not to be so much about the prizes.
So even though something could go wrong, I'm putting my faith in the people on this board not to let it.

It seems like every challenge in the LPS has had one of these types of threads.
Some people say that the 5 or 6 person judging system is flawed because only friends of the judges will get in.
Then others don't like it when it's like this because they can tell their friends to vote for their shot. What to do?
How do you go about picking a winner if you figure that both ways are flawed?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can tell you this. I have never asked anyone to vote for one of my shots. But, I have added to threads to try to get more people to vote.

So get over to the voting thread and vote. I did.

photogmomma · May 29, 2007

I agree with davev. You can always find a flaw in all methods. And I wouldn't be surprised if the judges are keeping their eyes out for things that seem unethical....

I considered getting a TON of people to sign up at dGrin just so I could win, but thought that might not be right.

(Just joking, of course!)

This is such a great board, and while i haven't always agreed with the winners, I also haven't felt like they were way out of line. I also like that the judges picked 10 photos for the rest of the world to vote on instead of leaving it completely open. That, to me, takes some of the randomness out of the voting - you have a combination of the world (with unknown voting criteria) and professionals (with more predictable criteria, to me) judging us. Even if I don't win or 100% agree with the winner, I still feel like it was a fair way to do it.

But I also do like that I do pretty much agree with the voting thus far!

DoctorIt · May 29, 2007

cd,
I haven't seen you too much in this forum, so I get the feeling your question is a bit unfair based on your lacking the full grasp of the LPS contest (which admittedly, is not totally easy).

This is the key:
The open vote only determines the aptly named "public choice award"

The 10 finalists you have been presented with were selected by a tally of points from a panel of hand-selected judges. And before even arriving at the semifinal, the competitors qualified in 5 contest rounds where there was nothing but judging, but different panels of judges chosen by Shay, the LPS mastermind.

You may now turn my attention to the final LPS, which will be selected by 2 rounds of open voting alone. Well, see above for the same reasoning. By that point, the ultimate finalists will have made it through at least 2 rounds of panel-style judging (in a qualifying round, and a semifinal round).

Is it perfect? No. Will it ever be? No, but I think we're as close as you can get. Have you seen the 10 SF1 finalists? I say this brashly: I have never seen a better collection of 10 photos on dgrin. Ever. It's working.

sunione · May 29, 2007

Hate to disagree BUT

DoctorIt wrote:

Is it perfect? No. Will it ever be? No, but I think we're as close as you can get. Have you seen the 10 SF1 finalists? I say this brashly: I have never seen a better collection of 10 photos on dgrin. Ever. It's working.

Hi Erik

Sorry I cannot agree with you that the top ten are the "best collection of 10 photos on dgrin".

My list was far different. Am I qualified to have an opinion? I believe so. Although I no longer participate in camera club or PSA competitions, I have several boxes of ribbons, medals and trophies from the years that I did. I've been accepted into salon competitions (and won awards in same) from all over the world. I was star rated by PSA. I have had my work used by newspapers and magazines (even a full color cover to my credit). I made enough money with freelance photography alone to send my two sons all over the eastern seaboard participating in soccer tournaments for six years. And I have been the guest judge at many camera club competitions.

I didn't expect my entry to be selected from the semi final round. I really didn't decide for sure to enter at all until the last minute. The judging has been so erratic for the qualifying rounds that I cannot see any pattern to go by. That was okay, it wasn't my best and the competition was really stiff.

HOWEVER, I am very disappointed not to be able to vote for the entry I thought was best........... since it wasn't in your judges top ten!

No doubt I will be sorry I posted this. I know there are others here who feel as I do but won't speak up for fear of getting flamed or that it will effect their success in further rounds.

:hungSo have at it

cdhames · May 29, 2007

There are some very deserving professionals here who have been awarded; I am not debating that point. And Smugmug and Dgrin have what I believe to be the best features and system in place overall, and that is why I'm here.

The point that I am trying to make is, Open Voting leaves open, an avenue of control any contestant can exert. I can tell you that the first thing that comes to mind when I hear Open Voting is "VOTE FOR ME!" and people are going to campaign that. So here are is the snippet from the Contest Rules section:

At the end of each contest, 10 finalists will be selected by a panel of judges. An open vote determines a winner for each semifinal. The Grand Finale winner is determined by open vote alone.

An open vote determines each semifinal, and Grand Finale alone. I've been planning to sumbit an entry, regardless of my view on an Open Vote. But I thought I should post the concern first. It's all in good fun, and I will be content whether I lose or win, but perhaps it may not be for someone else down the road, and the point should be made. I am actually surprised that no one in this community has brought it up.

davev · May 29, 2007

sunione wrote:

Hi Erik

Sorry I cannot agree with you that the top ten are the "best collection of 10 photos on dgrin".

My list was far different. Am I qualified to have an opinion? I believe so. Although I no longer participate in camera club or PSA competitions, I have several boxes of ribbons, medals and trophies from the years that I did. I've been accepted into salon competitions (and won awards in same) from all over the world. I was star rated by PSA. I have had my work used by newspapers and magazines (even a full color cover to my credit). I made enough money with freelance photography alone to send my two sons all over the eastern seaboard participating in soccer tournaments for six years. And I have been the guest judge at many camera club competitions.

I didn't expect my entry to be selected from the semi final round. I really didn't decide for sure to enter at all until the last minute. The judging has been so erratic for the qualifying rounds that I cannot see any pattern to go by. That was okay, it wasn't my best and the competition was really stiff.

HOWEVER, I am very disappointed not to be able to vote for the entry I thought was best........... since it wasn't in your judges top ten!

No doubt I will be sorry I posted this. I know there are others here who feel as I do but won't speak up for fear of getting flamed or that it will effect their success in further rounds.

:hungSo have at it

Sunione, you have a fine resumé. Hopefully you will let Shay know that you would be willing to be a judge sometime.

Surly you must know that you can send a photo to 10 different competitions, win one, come in third in another, not even a HM in the other 8.
Does that mean that the judging is flawed? That the judges in the last 8 competitions didn't know what they were doing? No. (well maybe):D
It all comes down to who's judging and what moves them on the day of the judging.
There are no PSA rules here. People are allowed to change their shots as they see fit.
In the nature club that I belong to, because of the PSA rules, I'm not allowed to remove a dust spot that was on my sensor. Crazy ain't it.
A link to our rules LINK

Even though your favorite may not have made it, (I'll bet it was the old truck shot):D, vote for the next one on your list.

cdhames · May 29, 2007

test test

DoctorIt · May 29, 2007

Sorry, all I have to say is "sigh". I thought this thread was going somewhere productive, but is has yet again slipped into the same old thing.

We did our best to put together a fun game with enough complexity and variation to keep it as fair and interesting as possible. If you don't like LPS, don't play.

anwmn1 · May 29, 2007

DoctorIt wrote:

Sorry, all I have to say is "sigh". I thought this thread was going somewhere productive, but is has yet again slipped into the same old thing.

We did our best to put together a fun game with enough complexity and variation to keep it as fair and interesting as possible. If you don't like LPS, don't play.

No worries!

I just renewed my membership after 1 year and have seen these same concerns brought up at least a dozen times. I have not always been happy myself but I know it is just a contest. Big wup!

No contest will satisfy everyone because everyone has different tastes and likes different photos.

I cannot think of anyone I know here on dgrin that would vote for someone they know simply because they know them.

By the way I do think we have had a better top ten in the past 12 months- but hey that is per my taste!

Aaron

ChrisJ · May 29, 2007

DoctorIt wrote:

We did our best to put together a fun game with enough complexity and variation to keep it as fair and interesting as possible.

No worries here, Doc... I haven't come close to a winning shot and I've really enjoyed it so far. It's been a nice change from the old challenges. And the feedback given has been priceless.

erich6 · May 29, 2007

The system can never be perfect and I think Dgrin did an excellent job in orchestrating how the LPS would be judged and voted on. I couldn't think of a more fair way.

The judging will by default always be different. The combination of people and the theme itself will influence how photos are judged. That doesn't bother me the least bit.

That all said it does bother me to think that while MOST people in the forum are honest there are a few that will exploit it and will indeed call on their friends and family to vote for their pictures if they made it to the finalist list.

The only thing I can think of that could make that more difficult is to prevent people from voting unless they have a contributing record to the forum. That is, these are bonified Dgrin users that post pictures and engage in the community and not someone that has an account just to vote when their friend makes it.

I think this was discussed before and I'm sure the Dgrin crew tried to work this but it probably was too complicated to implement....

Erich

cdhames · May 29, 2007

Well, the question is about Open Voting, and whether it offers the highest calibur of judgment which I believe is what everyone really wants from this, and expects, prizes aside. I dislike seeing the topic hijacked by other issues but this is a public forum, so allow me to ask everyone to stay on point.

I believe it's important because many of us are in this to promote our business and really, in this business contests and peer review are how we do it. Which leads me to say that the two should never go together -peer review contest. A peer review is accomplished for peer acceptance, critique and networking and a contest, in our context of work, should always be paneled by a selection of judges, to suppress the very problem I'm pointing out.

I also believe strongly that, should a contest like this be held where there are monetary prizes to be given, entry names should be suppressed until the winners are decided. It's probably too late for this year, but perhaps next? I really believe this would eliminate 90% of your complaints.

Many of you are probably familiar with the process already, if you belong to a photographers association. It's how things are done in the fairest manner.

Shay Stephens · May 29, 2007

Coming to a theater near you!
In a world where people want to be able to predict the outcome of every contest, pad every dangerous corner, and caress their delicate egos...the Last Photographer Standing Contest comes screeching in and makes that dream go up in smoke.

This summer...prepare to be entertained, challenged, and slapped around by the new guy on the block, the Last Photographer Standing. You'll be begging for mercy, begging for one more chance...

and begging for more!!!

This contest has not yet been rated!

:ivar:ivar:ivar:ivar

anwmn1 · May 29, 2007

:lurk

OOOOOO ...... how exciting.

Wait- I am in this movie!!

Shay Stephens · May 29, 2007

cdhames wrote:

I also believe strongly that, should a contest like this be held where there are monetary prizes to be given, entry names should be suppressed until the winners are decided. It's probably too late for this year, but perhaps next? I really believe this would eliminate 90% of your complaints.

Repeating for those needing (going back to April):
http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=539125&postcount=41

cdhames · May 29, 2007

Originally Posted by Shay Stephens
I have been involved in contests for a long time and have tried everything. The anonymous thing only works in theory, and actually serves to stifle cooperation as everyone goes into top secret mode. Critiques are less targeted because you may not know who the submission is from. And people style can many times be spotted anyway.

So in this contest, I made the direction to be full transparency in who was submitting the work. If you are good enough to generate a following of fans, that has to count for something too. In the photography world, reputation is important. And so it will be in the contest too, because names go with the pictures, and always will.

Shay, this makes little sense to me. What you are saying is that people with better communication skills deserve to win. Reputation is important to run a successful business, I have no doubt. And if this were to decide who has better salesmanship skills, I would not criticize your statement. By attaching a name to an art contest, you enter his or her reputation with it. If this contest is about photography, it should be evaluated on all the technical and creative aspects of that photograph, and reputation or "fans" should not weigh into the decision. If this is a popularity contest, then you are perfectly correct with your vision. What you have stated is that you believe fans and reputation should weigh into the decision of who wins. See your above statement. If this is the case, it is a free admission for everyone to campaign for a winning slot, and that we should go about doing so.

Shay Stephens · May 29, 2007

cdhames wrote:

Shay, this makes little sense to me. What you are saying is that people with better communication skills deserve to win. Reputation is important to run a successful business, I have no doubt. And if this were to decide who has better salesmanship skills, I would not criticize your statement. By attaching a name to an art contest, you enter his or her reputation with it. If this contest is about photography, it should be evaluated on all the technical and creative aspects of that photograph, and reputation or "fans" should not weigh into the decision. If this is a popularity contest, then you are perfectly correct with your vision. What you have stated is that you believe fans and reputation should weigh into the decision of who wins. See your above statement. If this is the case, it is a free admission for everyone to campaign for a winning slot, and that we should go about doing so.

What I am trying to point out is balance, a little of this, a little of that. To skew one way (annonymous) is really boring to participati in. To have a free for all open vote fest can be too random. To deny people a little popularity is fruitless, to rely on it totally is corrupt.

Balance...ah that's nice!

Learning balance is also another thing this contest promotes. I hope you follow that path, the other way leads to the dark side

cdhames · May 30, 2007

Balance is perfectly appropriate, but I think counter to what you are saying. There is little balance in a popularity contest. And recognition, is normally given after winners are selected. This is your project, and others that participate in it. And I see what you are trying to do which is involve people in the creative pursuit of better photography. By posting user submissions for critique before they enter them into the contest, you are generating interest and attracting future clientele. However, at the sacrafice of a fair contest.

My suggestion is to seperate Last Photographer Standing next season, remove it's transparency until after the winners are selected, and run the contest seperately, on a higher tier, with a selected panel of guest judges, perhaps 3rd party. I hope you take that into consideration. Fairness will sell what this sort of contest does not.

tsk1979 · May 30, 2007

A question about voting
From what it looks like, any dgrinner, old or new can vote.
The votes are not public either.
From what I know of vbull I don't think the moderators have a way of finding out who voted for whom.
So how do you prevent somebody from making 5 ids and voting in his/her favor?
Is there any check on such kind of fraud etc.,?

Shay Stephens · May 30, 2007

cdhames wrote:

Balance is perfectly appropriate, but I think counter to what you are saying. There is little balance in a popularity contest. And recognition, is normally given after winners are selected. This is your project, and others that participate in it. And I see what you are trying to do which is involve people in the creative pursuit of better photography. By posting user submissions for critique before they enter them into the contest, you are generating interest and attracting future clientele. However, at the sacrafice of a fair contest.

My suggestion is to separate Last Photographer Standing next season, remove it's transparency until after the winners are selected, and run the contest separately, on a higher tier, with a selected panel of guest judges, perhaps 3rd party. I hope you take that into consideration. Fairness will sell what this sort of contest does not.

There is literally no shortage of the type of contest you are describing. They are a dime a dozen and rather dull and stuffy. I don't want that. I want zaz, blam, and fireworks. You can't get zaz, blam, and fireworks with the typical photo association approved, double blind, sterilized photo contest.

The person who can make it through to the end of The Last Photographer Standing successfully will have wits, can think on their feet, roll with the punches, and wind up with a portfolio stuffed with amazing photos that will impress most viewers of their work.

I want people to end up tougher than they were when they started. More clever. More versatile. And you can't get that in a safe and sanitized contest environment that bears no resemblance to the business world I hope they will feel comfortable entering if they so choose.

Nikolai · May 30, 2007

I'm having a strong deja-vu.

Didn't we discuss all this ad noseum even before the LPS has actually started?

Come on guys. It's not the Oscar Academy. It's just us dgriners having a lot of fun (and SM sponsoring it

). The easiest way to kill it is to start overordering it.
As it's been said many times: go shoot, let the Mods worry about the rules.

DoctorIt · May 30, 2007

Nikolai wrote:

I'm having a strong deja-vu.
Didn't we discuss all this ad noseum even before the LPS has actually started?

I actually think I've come full circle... Hi, I'm Doctorit, nice to meet you. Where the heck am I?

richtersl · May 30, 2007

Judging in any photo contest is going to be subjective. Sometimes you're going to agree with the judges' decisions, sometimes not.

That's the way it is.

As far as LPS goes, I've never had so much fun taking part in a contest as I have had here. I am, indeed, winding up with some nice additions to my galleries as a result. And I want to learn (as Shay suggested) to think on my feet and roll with the punches.

I agree with Nikolai: go shoot, let the Mods worry about the rules.

kingmamaof2 · May 30, 2007

Well said Linda! ...I'm loving LPS and learning not only by trying new techniques to get the images I have in mind, but also by studying other's work and through the feedback from the judges. It's win-win for me regaurdless if prizes are offered.

sunita · May 30, 2007

I agree Shay, that popularity is good and that it is definitely important to build one's reputation esp. among peers, but in the open vote situation, might it not be a tad bit more fair to the competitors to have the vote results hidden until the very end? The way I look at it, the last minute vote(r)s have the advantage of skewing the results in favour of their 'favorite' which may not necessarily translate to the photo they would have otherwise picked per se.

I know life is not fair and all that, but it was just a thought...

Cheers, Sunita

DoctorIt · May 30, 2007

sunita wrote:

might it not be a tad bit more fair to the competitors to have the vote results hidden until the very end?

Psssst, Sunita, they already are!

You can't see the tally until you have placed a vote.

sunita · May 30, 2007

Okay, this may sound stupid (but it's been a long day at work - sigh!) but what am I seeing then when I click the view poll results on the right bottom of the list of finalists?

Thanks, Sunita

DoctorIt · May 30, 2007

well sh*t. all these years I thought that was a moderator-only feature!

Shay Stephens · May 30, 2007

sunita wrote:

The way I look at it, the last minute vote(r)s have the advantage of skewing the results in favour of their 'favorite' which may not necessarily translate to the photo they would have otherwise picked per se.

Why wouldn't you vote for your favorite?

If someone has to see what others are choosing before they themselves can vote, then they are not being honest with themselves. My suggestions to the panel of judges has always been to go with your gut feeling. Don't try to rationalize your choice because you can talk yourself out of anything.

That advise I would offer to the public choice voters as well. There is no wrong answer here. The photo you pick as your favorite from the selection is the right answer and always will be, irregardless of what other people are choosing.

The following is not for the squeamish! :whip
Learning that you can make a judgment call is an important skill to learn. Learning to make decisions on your own is too. If one wimps out and checks the results before voting themselves, they are falling into the cowards trap. They will learn nothing and make little progress. But those who do take on the challenge will benefit, get tougher, and learn to be able to make a decision on their own that they can confidently stand behind. Those people don't need hand holding, and that is why there isn't going to be any here either.
:whip
End of squeamish warning

People have to learn how to deal with life and come out of it successful. The voting is what it is, enjoy voting, and have a good time

cdhames · May 31, 2007

Shay, you are contradicting yourself with each statement. I wonder if you are justifying your reasons for the simple reason that justification must be made. Is this a contest of photography, or one of favorite artist? You argue both points equally, yet really give no valid reason for it. Morality and Fun are respectable foundations for any contest but they are superficial dressings and I believe, meant to be such in business. They are for outside appearance.

I think you've built this contest backwards. A rigerous, and somewhat flexible ruleset should be your bedrock, with honest voting your woodwork and the Fireworks and Blam your paintbrush.

The Open Vote question

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