I just wanted to pipe in... I'd really like to get the full contact info for all my customers too. When I sell on Amazon, eBay, or any other website, I always get the full info.
I understand SM's position, but, there's a simple fix... Have a check box field on checkout. Something like (default is selected):
[X] Please forward my full contact information to the photographer. By default, we only send your email address.
Make it matter-of-fact, and at the end. No one will unclick it. Problem solved.
Client Info [FONT="]While I certainly appreciate the input that you've provided Michelle...and Andy's responses...I'd like to bring this back 'round to the client info dilemma.
I'll be honest and say that I'm a little surprised that the poll has been so close. It shows that although there are others who wish to have their client info...there is a marginally larger group that is satisfied with the way things are. There is, however, obviously a demand for this among SM client base.
Assuming that the poll is a fair representative of SM customer base (which it probably isn't) 40 votes is enough statistically to represent the entire population and form a solid hypothesis...almost half of your customers agree that their client's information should be made accessible to them.[/FONT]
Focusing on Event, Portrait, and Humanitarian Work.... www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
[FONT="]While I certainly appreciate the input that you've provided Michelle...and Andy's responses...I'd like to bring this back 'round to the client info dilemma.
I'll be honest and say that I'm a little surprised that the poll has been so close. It shows that although there are others who wish to have their client info...there is a marginally larger group that is satisfied with the way things are. There is, however, obviously a demand for this among SM client base.
Assuming that the poll is a fair representative of SM customer base (which it probably isn't) 40 votes is enough statistically to represent the entire population and form a solid hypothesis...almost half of your customers agree that their client's information should be made accessible to them.[/FONT]
We really appreciate you posting this thread, and everyone's input.
We'll surely talk more about this, and carefully consider all opinions.
Last time I checked...there are over 23,000 forum memebers...there have been only 600 views and only 43 (so far) people have voted. I think it's a safe assumption that are many folks who haven't read the post that could vote either way.
I wasn't implying that there is something amiss...
Focusing on Event, Portrait, and Humanitarian Work.... www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
I don't do a lot of business on Smugmug yet because I'm still researching how I want to run my business and how I want to use Smugmug to facilitate it. Facilitate being the keyword.
My thinking is that my customers already think they are giving me this information because it is "my" website and they are purchasing from me.
Ask any one of your customers who they ordered their last print from and I gurantee they will say..."Well it was you of course...but it came from someplace called SmugMug"
Yes, I've had people say that to me after I called them back to ask them what they thought about their prints. And this is a small sampling of customers. Fortunately I know who they are so I can follow up w/ more than just an email (which isn't dak@smugmug.com btw).
When I'm in the train or at Yankee stadium and I hand someone my card, I tell them to check out "my" website.
It's not www.smugmug.com/dak
Some people even have powered by smugmug or portions @ smugmug on their site and or have lost the .smugmug.com part altogether because they've painstakingly customized it to be theirs. And they pay $149/year for this.
If I pay a x__ designer to build, design and host a website and cart for me, I would expect that designer to set it up so that I got the customers information when they made a purchase. I would not expect that only the x__ designer gets the customers information.
Smugmug should come in when there is a problem with an order or print or the site, but that should have no bearing on the site owner getting the customer info.
Canon 40D : Canon 400D : Canon Elan 7NE : Canon 580EX : 2 x Canon 430EX : Canon 24-70 f2.8L : Canon 70-200mm f/2.8L USM : Canon 28-135mm f/3.5 IS : 18-55mm f/3.5 : 4GB Sandisk Extreme III : 2GB Sandisk Extreme III : 2 x 1GB Sandisk Ultra II : Sekonik L358
I don't do a lot of business on Smugmug yet because I'm still researching how I want to run my business and how I want to use Smugmug to facilitate it. Facilitate being the keyword.
My thinking is that my customers already think they are giving me this information because it is "my" website and they are purchasing from me.
[/b]
Yes, I've had people say that to me after I called them back to ask them what they thought about their prints. And this is a small sampling of customers. Fortunately I know who they are so I can follow up w/ more than just an email (which isn't dak@smugmug.com btw).
When I'm in the train or at Yankee stadium and I hand someone my card, I tell them to check out "my" website.
It's not www.smugmug.com/dak
Some people even have powered by smugmug or portions @ smugmug on their site and or have lost the .smugmug.com part altogether because they've painstakingly customized it to be theirs. And they pay $149/year for this.
If I pay a x__ designer to build, design and host a website and cart for me, I would expect that designer to set it up so that I got the customers information when they made a purchase. I would not expect that only the x__ designer gets the customers information.
Smugmug should come in when there is a problem with an order or print or the site, but that should have no bearing on the site owner getting the customer info.
It sounds like your in the exact same boat as I'm in...I really appreciate your input.
Focusing on Event, Portrait, and Humanitarian Work.... www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
I will admit that I wouldn't expect SM to make a decision based solely on the poll responses...there are too many variables that aren't taken into consideration. Questions like "are you a SM Customer" (you can be a Dgrin member without being a SM Customer), or "Have you ever sold a print through SM" would improve the significance of the survey responses. It’s purpose is to make a point.
I prefer zoomerang because the analysis tools are more robust and the interface is more customizable. Also, they have great E-mail follow-up system that drastically improves response rates.
Create the survey and send it out to the active customers that have sold prints.
My post is an effort to get them to do something…anything…so that I don’t have to switch to someone else and lose what I’ve created here.
Focusing on Event, Portrait, and Humanitarian Work.... www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
variables....
i voted to have customer info....
i care less to have any financial info, im pretty sure thats not the issue in question...but yes i would like a name and address...
how else would i be able to gear up and send them an invit to a showing....or update them with new works....or whatever....
etc...
snailmail will get to the customer....e-mail, its a chance....imo
variables....
i voted to have customer info....
i care less to have any financial info, im pretty sure thats not the issue in question...but yes i would like a name and address...
how else would i be able to gear up and send them an invit to a showing....or update them with new works....or whatever....
etc...
snailmail will get to the customer....e-mail, its a chance....imo
Excellent points...
I completely agree with you about notifying people of showings. E-mail may work, but it is too informal for some occasions.
I sincerely appreciate your input!
JRW
Focusing on Event, Portrait, and Humanitarian Work.... www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
We really appreciate you posting this thread, and everyone's input.
We'll surely talk more about this, and carefully consider all opinions.
Thanks so much, everyone.
You know...after reading this thread (all of it...geesh)...I don't think anything new was brought up by me...or the other folks that responded. That being said...you guys & gals most likely have deterimined the current way is the best way given your target demographic...
Interestingly though, when the thread was first discussed (latter part of 2006)...I would say that there weren't nearly as many competitors. Since then, a number of competitors have popped up offering many of the things that I and other photogs have requested...mainly the fully branded experience with full control over the customer interaction.
That being said...I would bet that had SmugMug made the decision then to offer a more Pro-Centric business model there would be far fewer successful competitors.
Please someone at SmugMug...give me some hope that you guys are going to take all of your genius...re-evaluate the market...and satisfy the 50% of folks that voted for more customer info.
I know your not trying to take over the world...but you do everything else so well...:cry...really...this is me begging.
Focusing on Event, Portrait, and Humanitarian Work.... www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
I've got a pro account, but I am not out there grabbing clients at the moment. Most of my 'clients' are either family, friends, or have been given my contact by said family and friends. I just set up my account not to long ago and have yet to use it.
So I guess for me I don't know yet if it's a make or break. I think with what I want to do, I will already have the information I want. I'm not in it to sell landscapes or wildlife etc... so I guess it isn't something that would keep me from using smugmug.
All of my pro photog friends use smugmug and you all come highly recommended and I'm loving learning the ropes (granted rather slowly)...
That being said it would be nice to have that info just in case I started so I see the problems others have...
see how wonderfully unhelpful my opinion is? :ivar
"It's only an island if you look at it from the water."
Just to (again) throw in my two cents.. Just do what Google Checkout does.. Include a checkbox field that says, "Send all my contact information to the photographer" - with a default "checked" status. So, they have to opt-out of the sharing of info.
Just put a onhover info box with something like, "Sharing your contact information with the photographer will let them provide you with more personalized and professional service."
Just to (again) throw in my two cents.. Just do what Google Checkout does.. Include a checkbox field that says, "Send all my contact information to the photographer" - with a default "checked" status. So, they have to opt-out of the sharing of info.
Just put a onhover info box with something like, "Sharing your contact information with the photographer will let them provide you with more personalized and professional service."
I gotta think this is nearly "case closed" for Don, Andy, and crew... I mean, if it's good enough for Google...
This is a good solution that seems to meet everyone's needs. I'd take it a step further to say that if you don't think this is adequate (that the customer can opt-out) then maybe you should consider setting up your own order processing system and use that in lieu of SM. There's instructions on how to do that in the Customization FAQ (e.g., accepting Paypal payments).
I've been watching this thread. Haven't voted or posted as I'm not nearly as passionate about the topic as some. The last two posts sound like a good option to make the maximum number of people as happy as can be done.
I don't participate in Internet polls, but I'll make a few comments.
I do not advertise my site via search engines and really don't want casual browsers. I direct customers to the site with signs, business cards and word of mouth. They are MY customers.
I really dislike the SmugMug branding and confusion it sometimes causes MY customers. I spend money to advertise my site. SmugMug charges me money to advertise their site. I have had inquiries about the prices I charge as compared to what the prints and gifts actually cost; MY customers are obviously looking at SmugMug's consumer prices that are easily found with two clicks from any of my site's pages. Sure, most people know what a print costs, but why flaunt it? This only causes me unnecessary grief.
I don't have a critical need for customer mailing addresses, but I sure would like their phone number. I have had many occasions where I was unable to contact a customer by e-mail to ask them about a crop or other information important to their order. These "unreachables" may be like my wife, who only uses her e-mail address to order things and never checks her mail. But she always answers the phone!
I have had to contact SmugMug's help desk for assistance in contacting MY customers. They (help desk) came through with the necessary information, but why do I have to ask?
I am one of the most trustworthy and security conscious persons I know. I would certainly treat MY customer's information with as much care as anyone else; probably with more care than most anyone else. No offense SmugMug, but I trust you with MY customer information; don't you trust me?
I'll jump-ship for another host that better fits my perceived needs if SmugMug cannot fulfill those needs when my account renews, and I'll pay more if necessary. I love SmugMug's service, like the prints and the costs are okay, but non-pros receive the same. Sure, I can make profit by changing prices and watermarking and proof-delay, etc. But these features, for which I pay, all generate additional SmugBucks (profits SmugMug realizes on sales to MY customers) and I still don't receive customer information.
As more and more of my business has to be handled off-site, I cannot shake the feeling that Pro accounts are small potatoes in an ever growing SmugMug world, and those features that would really make for satisfied Pros are always up for discussion, but far from reality. Off-site sales are a pain for me and costs SmugMug profits. I'd be more than happy to transact this business on-site and share the profits, but only SmugMug has the means to help us do this. The process could begin by providing customer's information; MY customer's information.
I don't participate in Internet polls, but I'll make a few comments.
I do not advertise my site via search engines and really don't want casual browsers. I direct customers to the site with signs, business cards and word of mouth. They are MY customers.
I really dislike the SmugMug branding and confusion it sometimes causes MY customers. I spend money to advertise my site. SmugMug charges me money to advertise their site. I have had inquiries about the prices I charge as compared to what the prints and gifts actually cost; MY customers are obviously looking at SmugMug's consumer prices that are easily found with two clicks from any of my site's pages. Sure, most people know what a print costs, but why flaunt it? This only causes me unnecessary grief.
I don't have a critical need for customer mailing addresses, but I sure would like their phone number. I have had many occasions where I was unable to contact a customer by e-mail to ask them about a crop or other information important to their order. These "unreachables" may be like my wife, who only uses her e-mail address to order things and never checks her mail. But she always answers the phone!
I have had to contact SmugMug's help desk for assistance in contacting MY customers. They (help desk) came through with the necessary information, but why do I have to ask?
I am one of the most trustworthy and security conscious persons I know. I would certainly treat MY customer's information with as much care as anyone else; probably with more care than most anyone else. No offense SmugMug, but I trust you with MY customer information; don't you trust me?
I'll jump-ship for another host that better fits my perceived needs if SmugMug cannot fulfill those needs when my account renews, and I'll pay more if necessary. I love SmugMug's service, like the prints and the costs are okay, but non-pros receive the same. Sure, I can make profit by changing prices and watermarking and proof-delay, etc. But these features, for which I pay, all generate additional SmugBucks (profits SmugMug realizes on sales to MY customers) and I still don't receive customer information.
As more and more of my business has to be handled off-site, I cannot shake the feeling that Pro accounts are small potatoes in an ever growing SmugMug world, and those features that would really make for satisfied Pros are always up for discussion, but far from reality. Off-site sales are a pain for me and costs SmugMug profits. I'd be more than happy to transact this business on-site and share the profits, but only SmugMug has the means to help us do this. The process could begin by providing customer's information; MY customer's information.
Brock...I can't tell you how much I appreciate your input...you hit the nail on the head sir.
You know I was doing the math the other day...at first glance it appears that SmugMug is great deal compared to what is out there...but after digging deeper I'm beginning to think otherwise. I'll put this out in the open for folks to chew on (might regret it later...but it's for the common good...so it's good for me) ...
My subscription began in October of 2006. I'm 16 months in...at $12.43 a month I've paid SM ~(approx.) $200...during that time I've paid SM a commission of $165.69. That brings my grand total investment into SM to $365.69 for 16 months. That doesn't seem like much at first glance...until you look at the long run. As my sales increase (God willing)...my commission increases as well...so lets just assume that I triple my sales in 2 years...that means I can expect to pay SM ~$647 (comission*3+149.95) at year three...at the rate I'm going I'll have almost $1500 invested in to SM and guess what?...my customer is essentially SM's and if I decide to leave all I'll have is a long list of E-Mail addresses...plus SM isn't really doing anything to help me manage them (sans the E-mail address book)...and to make matters worse...the end product doesn't even have my name on it...(unless you look at the back of the print...)
The alternative...Pay an upfront fee to buy a shopping cart system that I can self-fullfill my orders through...cost of which ranges from $279 to $1500 ...pay a hosting company ~$10 per month to host my site (with plenty of room to grow). In three years...I'll have $360 in hosting costs and if I take the middle road and spend $500 on a shopping cart...my total outlay is $860...there are no commissions.
The benefits of this...simple...my customer is my customer from the beginning to the end...when the pictures finally show up and are sitting on the kitchen table...and passed around to all their friends and family..the sticker that holds the flap shut...it will say *my* name and my return address and not someone elses. Oh...and the commissions....they're arn't any...so the more prints I sell the more money I keep. And most fulfilling of all...I can hand-hold my customer all I want...I'll get to make that call at the end and hear them gush about how great of a job I did and how they can't wait to tell all their friends...or I can sense the hint of unsatisfaction and address it as needed.
Or I could just send them an E-mail...
While I'm not totally convinced yet (I'm giving the SM folks about 60 days)...I'm pretty sure we're not going to fit well together in the future. It's sad...because while SM was there for me during the "thin" of things they don't seem to be ideal during the "thick".
Again…thank you very much for your input Brock.
Focusing on Event, Portrait, and Humanitarian Work.... www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
I feel pretty stupid. I'm a new pro-user and have spent much time in the last few weeks getting my site up and running, already have a few small sales and expect to do much more in the future. It never occurred to me that smugmug would withhold my customer information from me. I can't even understand why this is an issue. I've read the whole thread and while I understand the opinions stated I still see no transparent reason for smugmug to prevent me from getting my client's full contact information...
Unless they feel that our having our customer's contact information would somehow harm their business or ours. It's a little big-brother to suggest that we can't have this information because we need to be protected from ourselves so I'd guess that smugmug internal data suggests a higher percentage of sales from smug searchs and less that originate from the photographer's site...?
We still maintain that you have the client email address, and the client has yours. The way I look at it, if the client wishes you to have their physical mailing address, and phone number, they'd gladly give it if you asked them when you sent them your usual thank you note, after an order.
They did give us this information... or so they thought, and it is very unprofessional (not to mention confusing) for us to have to ask for it again.
Does smugmug believe that our customers love the photograph and really want to buy it but please oh, please, whatever you do, don't give the photographer whose photos I just paid for my contact information!?! (That same information that I was willing to enter into this smugmug site thing that popped up while I was trying to order photographs from Joe Photographer.)
I get orders all the time from people I do not know personally - and it has happened that some have said "no thanks, we don't wish to give out that info, but you're welcome to email me if you have new images to share with us.." Those people would only be annoyed if I sent them something, or phoned them. But without fail, they've never objected to me shooting them a note, with a friendly link to a similar type image or gallery to one they've already purchased from. Nearly all buyers of mine, have happily given me their physical info, when requested.
I hate to be rude but this is just silly. It is highly likely that those few who declined to give their information to you were creeped out by the fact that you didn't already have it and didn't want to share their info with someone who seemed so unprofessional. (Ignoring for a moment the fact that you probably have access to all this information already due to your position at smugmug–I'm not suggesting you use it, just that you have access).
Anyway, my bad for not reading the help section that details how pro-user's customer information is not released to the people making the product that is getting purchased. Though I don't recall exactly where that is...
Back to pimping out my site and hoping that this non-issue gets resolved!
Thanks,
-erik
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Erik Grammer, Photography
Los Angeles, California www.erikgrammer.com
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While I absolutely agree that they are my customers, I do not use keywords so traffic is driven to my site by the cards i hand out. I do take some issue with your comments, because the grass is no greener.
I have been on the other side of the fence, I used MorePhotos.com to build my last site. $250 for there web design program and $39 per month to host and manage site. That is up to 2500 pictures. I usually have around 15000 on my site so that was an extra $100 per month and though they had an order manager to fill orders, It was always having problems. So I has to then upload the pics to a different lab and have them charge my CC. You should see my American Express summary, I have over 1000 Snapfish invoices,
Anyway my point is. After exhaustive searches I think SmugMug is one of the better deals. Yes I want my customer info, Yes I want EZ Prints to offer more Items, Yes I would like to lower the commisions, (Though with my monthly sales only being around $600 I dont think they will cut me a bulk deal. ) and yes I would love to have coupon codes to offer people;
But, On the other hand Dgrinners have helped me around the clock, I send an e mail to Smugmug and I get a response quickly and I like the hassle free order fulfilment
But then again to each there own
Chris
I don't participate in Internet polls, but I'll make a few comments.
I do not advertise my site via search engines and really don't want casual browsers. I direct customers to the site with signs, business cards and word of mouth. They are MY customers.
I really dislike the SmugMug branding and confusion it sometimes causes MY customers. I spend money to advertise my site. SmugMug charges me money to advertise their site. I have had inquiries about the prices I charge as compared to what the prints and gifts actually cost; MY customers are obviously looking at SmugMug's consumer prices that are easily found with two clicks from any of my site's pages. Sure, most people know what a print costs, but why flaunt it? This only causes me unnecessary grief.
I don't have a critical need for customer mailing addresses, but I sure would like their phone number. I have had many occasions where I was unable to contact a customer by e-mail to ask them about a crop or other information important to their order. These "unreachables" may be like my wife, who only uses her e-mail address to order things and never checks her mail. But she always answers the phone!
I have had to contact SmugMug's help desk for assistance in contacting MY customers. They (help desk) came through with the necessary information, but why do I have to ask?
I am one of the most trustworthy and security conscious persons I know. I would certainly treat MY customer's information with as much care as anyone else; probably with more care than most anyone else. No offense SmugMug, but I trust you with MY customer information; don't you trust me?
I'll jump-ship for another host that better fits my perceived needs if SmugMug cannot fulfill those needs when my account renews, and I'll pay more if necessary. I love SmugMug's service, like the prints and the costs are okay, but non-pros receive the same. Sure, I can make profit by changing prices and watermarking and proof-delay, etc. But these features, for which I pay, all generate additional SmugBucks (profits SmugMug realizes on sales to MY customers) and I still don't receive customer information.
As more and more of my business has to be handled off-site, I cannot shake the feeling that Pro accounts are small potatoes in an ever growing SmugMug world, and those features that would really make for satisfied Pros are always up for discussion, but far from reality. Off-site sales are a pain for me and costs SmugMug profits. I'd be more than happy to transact this business on-site and share the profits, but only SmugMug has the means to help us do this. The process could begin by providing customer's information; MY customer's information.
We've had many discussions over the last couple years on this subject. I happened to find something that our CEO posted and I wanted to re-post it here. We're still talking about it internally, and thanks again for bringing the subject up.
We actually don't feel like the customer is ours. I'm not quite sure
how this got started, and it may be legacy from when we were new to this
space and didn't understand it, but it's certainly not true now.
I'd say our current stance is that we feel the vast majority of Pro
sales are made by Pro customers, with an existing relationship, and the
customer is certainly the Pro's customer, not SmugMug's. There is a
small percentage of the time, though, when the customer has no
relationship with a Pro (people purchase photos from browsing our
'Popular Photos' pages with no knowledge that it's a Pro they're buying
from, for example). Again, small percentage, but it happens.
Our general mindset, though, is that while the customer belongs to the
Pro most of the time, they also are doing business with us, and as such,
we need to take great care of them. In a way, we're a mostly silent
partner in each transaction, and need to step in when there's some sort
of problem or dispute to help get it resolved.
If you were to go and buy a Sony DVD player at Best Buy, both Sony and
Best Buy would argue that you're their customer. Best Buy merely
provided a store front, credit card processing, and some level of
customer service for broken and/or returned goods. Sony actually
designs, builds, and markets the DVD player itself.
I think the vast majority of consumers would probably say, if they had
to choose, that they're Sony's customer, and that Best Buy just happened
to be where they bought it, or had the lowest price that day, or
something like that. The could have just as easily bought it at Circuit
City, but they weren't likely to buy a no-name brand DVD player - they
had to have a Sony.
However, at the same time, Best Buy still has to make that customer
happy. They have to provide a clean, well-lit store full of
merchandise, and staffed with helpful people. They have to swipe their
credit card, and give them a receipt, and the customer assumes that Best
Buy won't share their personal information with Sony.
I think there are parallels with SmugMug - we're providing store front,
financial processing, and customer service. But the Pro is the one who
did all of the work, taking the photo, promoting it, editing it, etc.
We believe at the core of beings that the Pro is the one generating that
sale, not us - but we are facilitating it, and the customers are
trusting us with extremely valuable information, like their credit card
numbers.
Most consumers would be shocked if Best Buy sold them out to Sony, and
while we're talking about different markets, there is some percentage
(we think and hope small) that would feel the exact same way about Pro
print sales.
If Best Buy somehow managed to damage or destroy customer trust, Sony
would feel it on the bottom line - despite the fact that the customer is
looking for and specifically buying a Sony. We're very sensitive to
damaging or destroying customer trust and the impact it could have on
our Pro's bottom lines.
We serve many Pro masters, and it's a difficult thing to do. Here's
some examples we tossed around last night (remember, we have Pro
photographers both on staff at SmugMug, and two spouses, including mine,
are Pros, so my income has depended on her work in the past).
- A wedding photographer shoots a wedding. She already has a
relationship with the main customer (bride & groom), and they have no
problem sharing their information with each other, because there's an
existing relationship. The bride may want to buy more photos a few years
down the road, and certainly wants to know if the digital originals
become available for sale after a sunset period.
- An event photographer shoots a triathlon (50% of SmugMug competes in
triathlons) and people buy prints on SmugMug of themselves. The
customer often has zero relationship with this Pro, because he was just
shooting hundreds of people at an event. Further, a Google search or
just talking to anyone at the triathlon reveals that plenty of event
photographers are known for spamming their existing customer base that
there's another event coming and won't they come so they can buy photos?
Some athletes won't want to buy because they know they'll get hounded
forever if the information is shared. They are the Pro's customer (the
Pro shot the photos, processed them, etc), but they're not interested in
a long-term relationship.
The list goes on and on, with fine art photographers, landscapes,
studio, etc, and we have to find a way to address all of them.
Anyway, this post has gone on long enough, but I hope I'm making myself
clear: Most customers are buying from a Pro, using SmugMug as a
facilitator. They are the Pro's customers, but that doesn't mean we
don't need to take great care of them and be sensitive to their needs.
Finally, we do have more customer interaction experience than most Pros
simply because we do a huge amount of volume. So a given Pro may not
always be as savvy to the customer experience as we are - that's one of
the reasons Pros pay us to help them out.
We've had many discussions over the last couple years on this subject. I happened to find something that our CEO posted and I wanted to re-post it here. We're still talking about it internally, and thanks again for bringing the subject up.
I still disagree with SmugMug on this. I can't speak for all pros, but to compare me to a large chain and supplier like Best Buy and Sony is crazy and way off base. My customers know that these images belong to me, they are buying them FROM ME, otherwise, they would not be on MY website trying to purchase prints. If a photographer chooses to 'hound' their customers with solicitations, that's their bad. The customer won't buy anything else from them. I don't see where the customer is going to throw SmugMug into the equation. My customers only know that SmugMug is who prints their pictures. They don't hold SM liable for anything. If there's a problem, they call me. I just want to be able to do the same and call them or mail them correspondence likewise.
Again, I just can't comprehend what SmugMug's problem is with retaining this information. I'm not asking for credit card information (which my customers think I get anyways). :argue
Again, I just can't comprehend what SmugMug's problem is with retaining this information. I'm not asking for credit card information (which my customers think I get anyways). :argue
Since the beginning of SmugMug time, we've had a no-spam policy. One concern we have is that unscrupulous pros might abuse the information. Use the event example from Don's post above. Or, closer to home -- say you shoot a wedding, and the bride is your customer. But Uncle Lenny orders also. Maybe Uncle Lenny fiercely guards his info and wants nothing to do with the pro. It happens all the time.
I'm just saying that there are many factors at play here. A huge change was made when we began supplying email addresses over a year ago. We'll keep talking about it, thanks!
We actually don't feel like the customer is ours. I'm not quite sure
how this got started, and it may be legacy from when we were new to this
space and didn't understand it, but it's certainly not true now.
I'd say our current stance is that we feel the vast majority of Pro
sales are made by Pro customers, with an existing relationship, and the
customer is certainly the Pro's customer, not SmugMug's. There is a
small percentage of the time, though, when the customer has no
relationship with a Pro (people purchase photos from browsing our
'Popular Photos' pages with no knowledge that it's a Pro they're buying
from, for example). Again, small percentage, but it happens.
So you're saying that the customer is the Pro's but.... um, not really because you won't trust the Pro with the customer's contact information. (An exchange of information that is the standard in a customer/sales relationship). And also because a very small percentage of the Pro's sales do not originate from the Pro's site. I don't want to get all Jeremy Bentham on you here but, come on, if only a small percentage don't originate from our sites than it's a safe bet that the majority do. So why not work towards the greatest good for the greatest number of customers by treating this relationship in the traditional business fashion?
Our general mindset, though, is that while the customer belongs to the
Pro most of the time, they also are doing business with us, and as such,
we need to take great care of them.
So they really are your customers too? And we aren't equal partners in this customer sharing, are we? You state that they are our customers but your actions clearly indicate your view that they are more your customers than ours and, again, we can't be trusted with their information so that indicates your incredibly dim view of the photographers..
If you were to go and buy a Sony DVD player at Best Buy, both Sony and
Best Buy would argue that you're their customer. Best Buy merely
provided a store front, credit card processing, and some level of
customer service for broken and/or returned goods. Sony actually
designs, builds, and markets the DVD player itself.
This is not accurate. Successful businesses understand the manufacturer/distributor dynamic and work in tandem to both make a profit. Sony has no desire to participate in fulfillment and consequently doesn't have a stake in maintaining a consumer database. Their customer is Best Buy and they would never argue otherwise.
I think the vast majority of consumers would probably say, if they had
to choose, that they're Sony's customer, and that Best Buy just happened
to be where they bought it, or had the lowest price that day, or
something like that. The could have just as easily bought it at Circuit
City, but they weren't likely to buy a no-name brand DVD player - they
had to have a Sony.
This may be true but your analogy is way off base... we aren't selling our photographs like dvd players because we aren't manufacturers (though this shines a bright and unpleasant light on how you view the photographers). We sell photographic licenses. The customer doesn't pay for the photograph, but a reproduction of the photograph with limited usage rights. In some cases a copyright transfer occurs but 99.9% of the time we retain ownership of the photograph.
However, at the same time, Best Buy still has to make that customer
happy. They have to provide a clean, well-lit store full of
merchandise, and staffed with helpful people. They have to swipe their
credit card, and give them a receipt,
And Sony has to create a product of value that can be marketed and sold or no one would go to Best Buy. A symbiotic relationship of partners that is predicated on cooperation, mutual respect for value of service rendered, and the manufacturer/distributor business paradigm. We get that you feel like you're providing a valuable service. That you spend time, money and creativity to provide smugmug as a service. You do it for the same reason we sell the photographs that we spent time, money and creativity to produce: to make money.
and the customer assumes that Best
Buy won't share their personal information with Sony.
You have no way of knowing this is true other than your personal feelings but you include it as fact because it suits your argument. And the truth is, the majority of the time the customers who purchase our photographs through smugmug do so believing they are purchasing from the photographer so it is illogical to presume that they would be concerned about smugmug sharing the information they already believe they are sharing.
I think there are parallels with SmugMug - we're providing store front,
financial processing, and customer service. But the Pro is the one who
did all of the work, taking the photo, promoting it, editing it, etc.
We believe at the core of beings that the Pro is the one generating that
sale, not us - but we are facilitating it, and the customers are
trusting us with extremely valuable information, like their credit card
numbers.
Most consumers would be shocked if Best Buy sold them out to Sony, and
while we're talking about different markets, there is some percentage
(we think and hope small) that would feel the exact same way about Pro
print sales.
If Best Buy somehow managed to damage or destroy customer trust, Sony
would feel it on the bottom line - despite the fact that the customer is
looking for and specifically buying a Sony. We're very sensitive to
damaging or destroying customer trust and the impact it could have on
our Pro's bottom lines.
Best Buy would never have a need to "sell out" their customers to Sony because Sony would never have a need for specific customer information. They already receive non-specific demographic information from Best Buy and other retailers to help them determine what to manufacture next... this is ridiculous and inflammatory rhetoric based on a faulty parallel between these two business models.
We serve many Pro masters, and it's a difficult thing to do. Here's
some examples we tossed around last night (remember, we have Pro
photographers both on staff at SmugMug, and two spouses, including mine,
are Pros, so my income has depended on her work in the past).
- A wedding photographer shoots a wedding. She already has a
relationship with the main customer (bride & groom), and they have no
problem sharing their information with each other, because there's an
existing relationship. The bride may want to buy more photos a few years
down the road, and certainly wants to know if the digital originals
become available for sale after a sunset period.
- An event photographer shoots a triathlon (50% of SmugMug competes in
triathlons) and people buy prints on SmugMug of themselves. The
customer often has zero relationship with this Pro, because he was just
shooting hundreds of people at an event. Further, a Google search or
just talking to anyone at the triathlon reveals that plenty of event
photographers are known for spamming their existing customer base that
there's another event coming and won't they come so they can buy photos?
Some athletes won't want to buy because they know they'll get hounded
forever if the information is shared. They are the Pro's customer (the
Pro shot the photos, processed them, etc), but they're not interested in
a long-term relationship.
Pros looking for customer information are doing so because they want to market their product to the people most likely to buy it. That's not spam... it's business marketing 101. How that marketing is executed determines, in large part, its effectiveness and certainly there are clumsy marketers. But why throw the baby out with the bath water?
Anyway, this post has gone on long enough, but I hope I'm making myself
clear: Most customers are buying from a Pro, using SmugMug as a
facilitator. They are the Pro's customers, but that doesn't mean we
don't need to take great care of them and be sensitive to their needs.
Listen to what you're saying: "These customers are yours but one of our jobs here at smugmug is to protect your customers from you!" Again, what a low opinion you have of the photographers.
Finally, we do have more customer interaction experience than most Pros
simply because we do a huge amount of volume. So a given Pro may not
always be as savvy to the customer experience as we are - that's one of
the reasons Pros pay us to help them out.
Again with the "we need to be protected from ourselves". This whole thing is so disappointing because despite your statements it is obvious that you do not view this as a relationship of equals. Why not just admit that your heavy-handed tactics, defended with this deceptive, false altruism about needing to "protect the customer" are nothing more than a calculated effort to protect your own bottom line at the expense of the photographers?
In the end it doesn't really matter to me from a business standpoint because the vast majority of my customers are known to me. I like smugmug and while I see room for improvement I'm still pleased with most of my experience. What compels me to speak up is the principle here... and how, intentionally or not, smugmug's actions speak so much more truthfully than their words.
-erik
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Erik Grammer, Photography
Los Angeles, California www.erikgrammer.com
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Again, what a low opinion you have of the photographers.
I can't see the correlation, and we do have an undisputed record of bending over backwards to take care of our pros, our customers, and our mutual customers that buy from pros.
Thanks for taking the time to post, I just bristled a bit at your words quoted above.
I can't see the correlation, and we do have an undisputed record of bending over backwards to take care of our pros, our customers, and our mutual customers that buy from pros.
Thanks for taking the time to post, I just bristled a bit at your words quoted above.
Words that I stand by. I agree that you have great customer service but, in the end, your actions and statements indicate that you don't trust us. And yet you state in the Privacy Policy on your site that:
"we use personal information collected on the Site...to inform users about products or services we think will be of interest."
Much like an event photographer might want to inform someone who has already shown interest in their product about newly available products. This is a complete double-standard and reflects the opinion that I refer to above. It may not be concious but your actions regularly demonstrate this. And I don't say this to be abrasive, I'd rather grab a beer and talk photography.. I'm just saying if it quacks like a duck I don't care if it tells me it's a weasel... no matter how nicely it says it.
Peace!
-erik
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Erik Grammer, Photography
Los Angeles, California www.erikgrammer.com
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I agree with you. I kind of felt like a scolded child not allowed to touch the glass ornaments. I should decide if I'm responsible enough to do whatever I want with MY customers information. If SmugMug doesn't share MY information (since I'm their customer), I appreciate it. But, people that buy from me are my customers. I pay SmugMug, so therefore, I am SmugMug's customers.
Comments
I understand SM's position, but, there's a simple fix... Have a check box field on checkout. Something like (default is selected):
[X] Please forward my full contact information to the photographer. By default, we only send your email address.
Make it matter-of-fact, and at the end. No one will unclick it. Problem solved.
David
Twitter: @WolfSnap
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WolfSnapDesigns
SmugMug & Wordpress Customization - WolfSnap.com | Custom Domains
[FONT="]While I certainly appreciate the input that you've provided Michelle...and Andy's responses...I'd like to bring this back 'round to the client info dilemma.
I'll be honest and say that I'm a little surprised that the poll has been so close. It shows that although there are others who wish to have their client info...there is a marginally larger group that is satisfied with the way things are. There is, however, obviously a demand for this among SM client base.
Assuming that the poll is a fair representative of SM customer base (which it probably isn't) 40 votes is enough statistically to represent the entire population and form a solid hypothesis...almost half of your customers agree that their client's information should be made accessible to them.[/FONT]
www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
We'll surely talk more about this, and carefully consider all opinions.
Thanks so much, everyone.
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Wow!
:wow
Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
Last time I checked...there are over 23,000 forum memebers...there have been only 600 views and only 43 (so far) people have voted. I think it's a safe assumption that are many folks who haven't read the post that could vote either way.
I wasn't implying that there is something amiss...
www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
My thinking is that my customers already think they are giving me this information because it is "my" website and they are purchasing from me.
Yes, I've had people say that to me after I called them back to ask them what they thought about their prints. And this is a small sampling of customers. Fortunately I know who they are so I can follow up w/ more than just an email (which isn't dak@smugmug.com btw).
When I'm in the train or at Yankee stadium and I hand someone my card, I tell them to check out "my" website.
It's not www.smugmug.com/dak
Some people even have powered by smugmug or portions @ smugmug on their site and or have lost the .smugmug.com part altogether because they've painstakingly customized it to be theirs. And they pay $149/year for this.
If I pay a x__ designer to build, design and host a website and cart for me, I would expect that designer to set it up so that I got the customers information when they made a purchase. I would not expect that only the x__ designer gets the customers information.
Smugmug should come in when there is a problem with an order or print or the site, but that should have no bearing on the site owner getting the customer info.
dak.smugmug.com
It sounds like your in the exact same boat as I'm in...I really appreciate your input.
www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Chuck Cannova
http://chuckinsocal.SmugMug.com
www.socalimages.com
Artistically & Creatively Challenged
True...
I will admit that I wouldn't expect SM to make a decision based solely on the poll responses...there are too many variables that aren't taken into consideration. Questions like "are you a SM Customer" (you can be a Dgrin member without being a SM Customer), or "Have you ever sold a print through SM" would improve the significance of the survey responses. It’s purpose is to make a point.
I would encourage SM use a tool such as www.surveymonkey.com or www.zoomerang.com to create a more accurate survey.
I prefer zoomerang because the analysis tools are more robust and the interface is more customizable. Also, they have great E-mail follow-up system that drastically improves response rates.
Create the survey and send it out to the active customers that have sold prints.
My post is an effort to get them to do something…anything…so that I don’t have to switch to someone else and lose what I’ve created here.
www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
i voted to have customer info....
i care less to have any financial info, im pretty sure thats not the issue in question...but yes i would like a name and address...
how else would i be able to gear up and send them an invit to a showing....or update them with new works....or whatever....
etc...
snailmail will get to the customer....e-mail, its a chance....imo
Excellent points...
I completely agree with you about notifying people of showings. E-mail may work, but it is too informal for some occasions.
I sincerely appreciate your input!
JRW
www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
You know...after reading this thread (all of it...geesh)...I don't think anything new was brought up by me...or the other folks that responded. That being said...you guys & gals most likely have deterimined the current way is the best way given your target demographic...
Interestingly though, when the thread was first discussed (latter part of 2006)...I would say that there weren't nearly as many competitors. Since then, a number of competitors have popped up offering many of the things that I and other photogs have requested...mainly the fully branded experience with full control over the customer interaction.
That being said...I would bet that had SmugMug made the decision then to offer a more Pro-Centric business model there would be far fewer successful competitors.
Please someone at SmugMug...give me some hope that you guys are going to take all of your genius...re-evaluate the market...and satisfy the 50% of folks that voted for more customer info.
I know your not trying to take over the world...but you do everything else so well...:cry
www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
I can promise you this: it's the topic of discussion, and we take all of this input very seriously. We really and truly do
Thanks again for bringing this topic up, Jonathan!
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So I guess for me I don't know yet if it's a make or break. I think with what I want to do, I will already have the information I want. I'm not in it to sell landscapes or wildlife etc... so I guess it isn't something that would keep me from using smugmug.
All of my pro photog friends use smugmug and you all come highly recommended and I'm loving learning the ropes (granted rather slowly)...
That being said it would be nice to have that info just in case I started so I see the problems others have...
see how wonderfully unhelpful my opinion is? :ivar
I have a pro account and I'll second all the points (or nth) that Johnathon makes. Very close to my own position on whose customer they are.
Graham
www.brearleyphoto.com
Just put a onhover info box with something like, "Sharing your contact information with the photographer will let them provide you with more personalized and professional service."
David
Twitter: @WolfSnap
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WolfSnapDesigns
SmugMug & Wordpress Customization - WolfSnap.com | Custom Domains
I gotta think this is nearly "case closed" for Don, Andy, and crew... I mean, if it's good enough for Google...
This is a good solution that seems to meet everyone's needs. I'd take it a step further to say that if you don't think this is adequate (that the customer can opt-out) then maybe you should consider setting up your own order processing system and use that in lieu of SM. There's instructions on how to do that in the Customization FAQ (e.g., accepting Paypal payments).
http://www.chrislaudermilkphoto.com/
I do not advertise my site via search engines and really don't want casual browsers. I direct customers to the site with signs, business cards and word of mouth. They are MY customers.
I really dislike the SmugMug branding and confusion it sometimes causes MY customers. I spend money to advertise my site. SmugMug charges me money to advertise their site.
I don't have a critical need for customer mailing addresses, but I sure would like their phone number. I have had many occasions where I was unable to contact a customer by e-mail to ask them about a crop or other information important to their order. These "unreachables" may be like my wife, who only uses her e-mail address to order things and never checks her mail. But she always answers the phone!
I have had to contact SmugMug's help desk for assistance in contacting MY customers. They (help desk) came through with the necessary information, but why do I have to ask?
I am one of the most trustworthy and security conscious persons I know.
I'll jump-ship for another host that better fits my perceived needs if SmugMug cannot fulfill those needs when my account renews, and I'll pay more if necessary. I love SmugMug's service, like the prints and the costs are okay, but non-pros receive the same. Sure, I can make profit by changing prices and watermarking and proof-delay, etc. But these features, for which I pay, all generate additional SmugBucks (profits SmugMug realizes on sales to MY customers) and I still don't receive customer information.
As more and more of my business has to be handled off-site, I cannot shake the feeling that Pro accounts are small potatoes in an ever growing SmugMug world, and those features that would really make for satisfied Pros are always up for discussion, but far from reality. Off-site sales are a pain for me and costs SmugMug profits. I'd be more than happy to transact this business on-site and share the profits, but only SmugMug has the means to help us do this. The process could begin by providing customer's information; MY customer's information.
Brock...I can't tell you how much I appreciate your input...you hit the nail on the head sir.
You know I was doing the math the other day...at first glance it appears that SmugMug is great deal compared to what is out there...but after digging deeper I'm beginning to think otherwise. I'll put this out in the open for folks to chew on (might regret it later...but it's for the common good...so it's good for me) ...
My subscription began in October of 2006. I'm 16 months in...at $12.43 a month I've paid SM ~(approx.) $200...during that time I've paid SM a commission of $165.69. That brings my grand total investment into SM to $365.69 for 16 months. That doesn't seem like much at first glance...until you look at the long run. As my sales increase (God willing)...my commission increases as well...so lets just assume that I triple my sales in 2 years...that means I can expect to pay SM ~$647 (comission*3+149.95) at year three...at the rate I'm going I'll have almost $1500 invested in to SM and guess what?...my customer is essentially SM's and if I decide to leave all I'll have is a long list of E-Mail addresses...plus SM isn't really doing anything to help me manage them (sans the E-mail address book)...and to make matters worse...the end product doesn't even have my name on it...(unless you look at the back of the print...
The alternative...Pay an upfront fee to buy a shopping cart system that I can self-fullfill my orders through...cost of which ranges from $279 to $1500 ...pay a hosting company ~$10 per month to host my site (with plenty of room to grow). In three years...I'll have $360 in hosting costs and if I take the middle road and spend $500 on a shopping cart...my total outlay is $860...there are no commissions.
The benefits of this...simple...my customer is my customer from the beginning to the end...when the pictures finally show up and are sitting on the kitchen table...and passed around to all their friends and family..the sticker that holds the flap shut...it will say *my* name and my return address and not someone elses. Oh...and the commissions....they're arn't any...so the more prints I sell the more money I keep. And most fulfilling of all...I can hand-hold my customer all I want...I'll get to make that call at the end and hear them gush about how great of a job I did and how they can't wait to tell all their friends...or I can sense the hint of unsatisfaction and address it as needed.
Or I could just send them an E-mail...
While I'm not totally convinced yet (I'm giving the SM folks about 60 days)...I'm pretty sure we're not going to fit well together in the future. It's sad...because while SM was there for me during the "thin" of things they don't seem to be ideal during the "thick".
Again…thank you very much for your input Brock.
www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Unless they feel that our having our customer's contact information would somehow harm their business or ours. It's a little big-brother to suggest that we can't have this information because we need to be protected from ourselves so I'd guess that smugmug internal data suggests a higher percentage of sales from smug searchs and less that originate from the photographer's site...?
I don't know... still trying to puzzle it out.
They did give us this information... or so they thought, and it is very unprofessional (not to mention confusing) for us to have to ask for it again.
Does smugmug believe that our customers love the photograph and really want to buy it but please oh, please, whatever you do, don't give the photographer whose photos I just paid for my contact information!?! (That same information that I was willing to enter into this smugmug site thing that popped up while I was trying to order photographs from Joe Photographer.)
I hate to be rude but this is just silly. It is highly likely that those few who declined to give their information to you were creeped out by the fact that you didn't already have it and didn't want to share their info with someone who seemed so unprofessional. (Ignoring for a moment the fact that you probably have access to all this information already due to your position at smugmug–I'm not suggesting you use it, just that you have access).
Anyway, my bad for not reading the help section that details how pro-user's customer information is not released to the people making the product that is getting purchased. Though I don't recall exactly where that is...
Back to pimping out my site and hoping that this non-issue gets resolved!
Thanks,
-erik
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Erik Grammer, Photography
Los Angeles, California
www.erikgrammer.com
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I have been on the other side of the fence, I used MorePhotos.com to build my last site. $250 for there web design program and $39 per month to host and manage site. That is up to 2500 pictures. I usually have around 15000 on my site so that was an extra $100 per month and though they had an order manager to fill orders, It was always having problems. So I has to then upload the pics to a different lab and have them charge my CC. You should see my American Express summary, I have over 1000 Snapfish invoices,
Anyway my point is. After exhaustive searches I think SmugMug is one of the better deals. Yes I want my customer info, Yes I want EZ Prints to offer more Items, Yes I would like to lower the commisions, (Though with my monthly sales only being around $600 I dont think they will cut me a bulk deal. ) and yes I would love to have coupon codes to offer people;
But, On the other hand Dgrinners have helped me around the clock, I send an e mail to Smugmug and I get a response quickly and I like the hassle free order fulfilment
But then again to each there own
Chris
:whip
WWW.LONGISLANDIMAGE.COM
www.michellesphotographyonline.com
Michelle Martin
Control your destiny, or someone else will.
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I still disagree with SmugMug on this. I can't speak for all pros, but to compare me to a large chain and supplier like Best Buy and Sony is crazy and way off base. My customers know that these images belong to me, they are buying them FROM ME, otherwise, they would not be on MY website trying to purchase prints. If a photographer chooses to 'hound' their customers with solicitations, that's their bad. The customer won't buy anything else from them. I don't see where the customer is going to throw SmugMug into the equation. My customers only know that SmugMug is who prints their pictures. They don't hold SM liable for anything. If there's a problem, they call me. I just want to be able to do the same and call them or mail them correspondence likewise.
Again, I just can't comprehend what SmugMug's problem is with retaining this information. I'm not asking for credit card information (which my customers think I get anyways). :argue
www.michellesphotographyonline.com
Michelle Martin
Control your destiny, or someone else will.
I'm just saying that there are many factors at play here. A huge change was made when we began supplying email addresses over a year ago. We'll keep talking about it, thanks!
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So they really are your customers too? And we aren't equal partners in this customer sharing, are we? You state that they are our customers but your actions clearly indicate your view that they are more your customers than ours and, again, we can't be trusted with their information so that indicates your incredibly dim view of the photographers..
There's not much silent about the jarring transition from my site to the smugmug shopping cart.
This is not accurate. Successful businesses understand the manufacturer/distributor dynamic and work in tandem to both make a profit. Sony has no desire to participate in fulfillment and consequently doesn't have a stake in maintaining a consumer database. Their customer is Best Buy and they would never argue otherwise.
This may be true but your analogy is way off base... we aren't selling our photographs like dvd players because we aren't manufacturers (though this shines a bright and unpleasant light on how you view the photographers). We sell photographic licenses. The customer doesn't pay for the photograph, but a reproduction of the photograph with limited usage rights. In some cases a copyright transfer occurs but 99.9% of the time we retain ownership of the photograph.
And Sony has to create a product of value that can be marketed and sold or no one would go to Best Buy. A symbiotic relationship of partners that is predicated on cooperation, mutual respect for value of service rendered, and the manufacturer/distributor business paradigm. We get that you feel like you're providing a valuable service. That you spend time, money and creativity to provide smugmug as a service. You do it for the same reason we sell the photographs that we spent time, money and creativity to produce: to make money.
You have no way of knowing this is true other than your personal feelings but you include it as fact because it suits your argument. And the truth is, the majority of the time the customers who purchase our photographs through smugmug do so believing they are purchasing from the photographer so it is illogical to presume that they would be concerned about smugmug sharing the information they already believe they are sharing.
Best Buy would never have a need to "sell out" their customers to Sony because Sony would never have a need for specific customer information. They already receive non-specific demographic information from Best Buy and other retailers to help them determine what to manufacture next... this is ridiculous and inflammatory rhetoric based on a faulty parallel between these two business models.
Pros looking for customer information are doing so because they want to market their product to the people most likely to buy it. That's not spam... it's business marketing 101. How that marketing is executed determines, in large part, its effectiveness and certainly there are clumsy marketers. But why throw the baby out with the bath water?
Listen to what you're saying: "These customers are yours but one of our jobs here at smugmug is to protect your customers from you!" Again, what a low opinion you have of the photographers.
Again with the "we need to be protected from ourselves". This whole thing is so disappointing because despite your statements it is obvious that you do not view this as a relationship of equals. Why not just admit that your heavy-handed tactics, defended with this deceptive, false altruism about needing to "protect the customer" are nothing more than a calculated effort to protect your own bottom line at the expense of the photographers?
In the end it doesn't really matter to me from a business standpoint because the vast majority of my customers are known to me. I like smugmug and while I see room for improvement I'm still pleased with most of my experience. What compels me to speak up is the principle here... and how, intentionally or not, smugmug's actions speak so much more truthfully than their words.
-erik
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Erik Grammer, Photography
Los Angeles, California
www.erikgrammer.com
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I can't see the correlation, and we do have an undisputed record of bending over backwards to take care of our pros, our customers, and our mutual customers that buy from pros.
Thanks for taking the time to post, I just bristled a bit at your words quoted above.
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"we use personal information collected on the Site...to inform users about products or services we think will be of interest."
Much like an event photographer might want to inform someone who has already shown interest in their product about newly available products. This is a complete double-standard and reflects the opinion that I refer to above. It may not be concious but your actions regularly demonstrate this. And I don't say this to be abrasive, I'd rather grab a beer and talk photography.. I'm just saying if it quacks like a duck I don't care if it tells me it's a weasel... no matter how nicely it says it.
Peace!
-erik
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Erik Grammer, Photography
Los Angeles, California
www.erikgrammer.com
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www.michellesphotographyonline.com
Michelle Martin
Control your destiny, or someone else will.