As is the case in many other professions there are varying levels of "professional". As I mentioned in previous posts...the current business model caters well to the sort of customer/client relationship that your referencing.
Personally, my whole effort is aimed at raising the bar to the next level.
Case in point...if you were to go to your nearest bookstore and yank a few of today's most popular mags (Time, USNews, Vogue, etc) and document as many of the photographers as you could....I would bet that not one of them uses SM for any piece of their work flow. Why? because to the majority of those folks SM is for "Amateurs"...and their customers...the publications would probably laugh them out of the building if their proof book was on SM.
There are numerous obvious reasons why, but to imply that the customer that those Photogs are catering to and the customer that your catering to and the customer that I cater to are the same isn't fair.
Can you please expand on the last sentence? I think I'm missing something.
Further, many of the photographers that I aspire to be someday run studios with many hands and a management team to boot...to suggest that they aren't a "business" is a little disconcerting...
I did not mean to suggest that at all. I meant to suggest that SM is more of a business than the people who sell their prints through it. I should have been more clear with this sentence: "I am more comfortable buying things from a business as opposed to an individual over the internet." I still feel that way. But I did not mean to imply pros aren't a business. Like you said in your opening, there are different levels. Heck, me selling crap on Ebay is a business but I would put it in a different category than SM.
I'm not trying to be confrontational or a trouble maker. I'm just trying to provide my perspective as a non-pro.
Can you please expand on the last sentence? I think I'm missing something.
Well...given that it was the worlds longest run-on sentence, I understand completely.
I was just trying to say that there are many different types of customers. Each customer's expectations are different given the product they are looking for.
I did not mean to suggest that at all. I meant to suggest that SM is more of a business than the people who sell their prints through it. I should have been more clear with this sentence: "I am more comfortable buying things from a business as opposed to an individual over the internet." I still feel that way. But I did not mean to imply pros aren't a business. Like you said in your opening, there are different levels. Heck, me selling crap on Ebay is a business but I would put it in a different category than SM.
I agree with you completely. That's one of the main reasons I brought it up. As photographer and a business owner I'm trying to do what I can to make my customer more comfortable.
I'm not trying to be confrontational or a trouble maker. I'm just trying to provide my perspective as a non-pro.
I didn't get that impression at all...I'm glad that you brought up what you did. It makes it even more obvious that SM is doing the right thing with customer information when it comes to folks like yourself. My hope is that they'll develop the system a little further so that customers with different expectations can be as satisfied as you are.
JW
Focusing on Event, Portrait, and Humanitarian Work.... www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
SmugMug , JohnDoePhoto, and JaneDoePhoto work as trusted partners to make sure your order is perfect. SmugMug , JohnDoePhoto, and JaneDoePhoto will have your name and email to provide better service than either could alone.
Okay, so what's the problem with giving the address/phone to a trusted partner?
To exacerbate the problem, I'm completely booted from the fulfillment chain. I'm informed that and order has been received. But I'm not told when it ships. I'm not told when it has arrived. And, as far as I know, I'm not told if there is a quality problem.
I do get that info from Smugmug. I get an email saying the order was placed. Then I get this to track it.
Damon (dak) > control panel > pro sales > Order #111111 customer: blahblah add to address book date order placed: 2007-11-20 19:06:16 status: Shipped. The USPS tracking number is: 9101132138798009318XX
Then they comment that two weeks later, when the prints arrived, they were unsure what they were receiving because my name was nowhere to be seen. Not onthe package. And not in the package. Only on the backprinting and, in all cases I'm aware of, that printing is too small and too blurred to read without a careful look.
They knew it was me who shot the event. They new it was my site they ordered from, so what they expected was a package that would at least have my name on it.
Yeah that's what I was getting at in an earlier post. A couple people received orders from Smugmug (and me as far as I'm concerned), didn't know who it was from at first and even asked me who Smugmug was. I said it's the company that hosts my website (Smugmug doesn't make the prints; so again they just facilitate the process...). They said, "Oh, yeah."
I'm feel I'm paying for a service or even a value added partnership. Regardless of what you agreed to a year or two ago, changes can be made to improve the flow later.
You use Canon or Nikon cameras and lenses, Photoshop and Lightroom programs, to help you improve your images and workflow and you complain about it's shortcomings until a new version comes out addressing some of the features you wish it had.
You use Smugmug to help you with showing and selling. To imply that because we knew what we were getting into when we signed on and should just live with it and not request improvements is not realistic IMO. It's a growth process.
I don't see this as a deal breaker, but I see I may have to find a workaround. I think in the end I may have to handle the whole process from start to finish, having customers fill out sheets ahead of time to gather the customer information, prints and packages they want to order, having them pay me the money via cash or cc, then I can either drop ship from Smugmug to them, or ship to myself and hand deliver, or print from a local developing lab or from my own in-house printers. Because I am after all trying to be my own boss.
I'm blindly trusting them to send photos to my customers as it is; one of them is an hour and a half away in Jersey and I have to drive an hour & a half to make sure the prints are up to my standards, not just the customers.
Face it, you can look at myspace and see the level of crap that customers will think is good quality.
I had a friend take a 4 x 6 print of this picture of herself holding flowers her boyfriend had sent to our job:
She scanned and uploaded it to her myspace to show him because he was away in the military, and her friends commented how great it looked! Well, this is what I saw on her "Myspace"...
I flipped out on her and emailed her a much better copy. The point is I want to have the choice to follow up with my customers as I wish. Even Smugmug in the FAQ admits good and bad of EZprints.
That said, I've never had a problem with a Smugmug print up to 16 x 24 and I do trust them to handle that and other order issues well!
Include a checkbox field that says, "Send all my contact information to the photographer" - with a default "checked" status.
As a small and quick example, this should be a gallery option that I choose to give to my customers should I decide I want to send them a postcard reminder that I can do specific events (maternity, baby, 6 months, first birthday, baptism, siblings, senior, engagement, wedding) or use other marketing tools at my disposal to generate more business for myself and ultimately Smugmug.
THEN the customer can decide with the checkbox if they want me to get that info or not (address/phone). Smugmug will still get it regardless.
As another example, at my last dentist appointment I was told I should come back in 6 months. I asked her if I should make the appointment now. She said, "No. We will send you a reminder in the mail and call before 6 months is up." If I don't know the number when they call, they will leave a message and I can choose to call back or not.
If I win a contract to shoot another graduation in May and people buy, I want their info.
When my wife graduated from med school last year, the company that shot the event sent an email to the students and they had already filled out cards with their info ahead of time (before their pictures were taken). If someone else wanted to buy a picture, say a parent, they could order it from the site. Now the company has the parents’ info also. And there is a checkbox on the site asking if they want to receive future mailings, etc... from the company.
I'm not considering myself a pro photog yet, but I do have 14 years of business bulk sales, outbound cold and warm calling, marketing, promotion, customer service, quality assurance and account management experience.
Again, not a deal breaker, but rather a thorn in the side and it does affect my future plans.
Sorry for the long public thoughts on what many probably consider a small issue.
Canon 40D : Canon 400D : Canon Elan 7NE : Canon 580EX : 2 x Canon 430EX : Canon 24-70 f2.8L : Canon 70-200mm f/2.8L USM : Canon 28-135mm f/3.5 IS : 18-55mm f/3.5 : 4GB Sandisk Extreme III : 2GB Sandisk Extreme III : 2 x 1GB Sandisk Ultra II : Sekonik L358
Sounds like all the stuff you guys want, you should have your OWN website, not going through smugmug. Their ways are clear from the beginning.
Well. I do see your point, but for one, niggly-little, thing.
SM differentiates "Pro" accounts from other accounts AND charges a premium for those 'Pro' services -- less than most, but more than some others -- with the soundly implied promise that the premium tier offers a professional-grade service.
In my opinion these threads -- though they are perhaps overly emotional at times -- address issues that most professionals consider fundamental to business and thus are rightfully expected of a service that promotes itself as being "pro."
So, while most of us understand that SM's main focus is on the amateur/semi-pro users it was designed to service, as pro account holders we also feel a certain entitlement to those few core features one can reasonably expect of a 'pro' service.
SM fulfills many, if not most, of those expectations. And they do it very well. But identifiable branding, first-person quality control and pertinent customer contact channels remain fundamental shortcomings. And a true, business-to-business, enterprise must understand this.
Therefore, those of us who want to take SM seriously as a pro services provider are investing time, effort and money trying to have those few issues addressed in a serious manner.
SM may choose to grow this, newer, aspect of their business, or they will choose to redefine it and we all move on.
That is awesome. Thanks so much. I always thought it would be nice to get, but it wasn't an overly high priority (for me). But now that I have this good info, it will be useful and beneficial.
"A photo is like a hamburger. You can get one from McDonalds for $1, one from Chili's for $5, or one from Ruth's Chris for $15. You usually get what you pay for, but don't expect a Ruth's Chris burger at a McDonalds price, if you want that, go cook it yourself." - me
Comments
Can you please expand on the last sentence? I think I'm missing something.
I did not mean to suggest that at all. I meant to suggest that SM is more of a business than the people who sell their prints through it. I should have been more clear with this sentence: "I am more comfortable buying things from a business as opposed to an individual over the internet." I still feel that way. But I did not mean to imply pros aren't a business. Like you said in your opening, there are different levels. Heck, me selling crap on Ebay is a business but I would put it in a different category than SM.
I'm not trying to be confrontational or a trouble maker. I'm just trying to provide my perspective as a non-pro.
Well...given that it was the worlds longest run-on sentence, I understand completely.
I was just trying to say that there are many different types of customers. Each customer's expectations are different given the product they are looking for.
I agree with you completely. That's one of the main reasons I brought it up. As photographer and a business owner I'm trying to do what I can to make my customer more comfortable.
I didn't get that impression at all...I'm glad that you brought up what you did. It makes it even more obvious that SM is doing the right thing with customer information when it comes to folks like yourself. My hope is that they'll develop the system a little further so that customers with different expectations can be as satisfied as you are.
JW
www.jonathanwphotography.com
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
I do get that info from Smugmug. I get an email saying the order was placed. Then I get this to track it.
Damon (dak) > control panel > pro sales > Order #111111
customer: blahblah add to address book
date order placed: 2007-11-20 19:06:16
status: Shipped. The USPS tracking number is: 9101132138798009318XX
Yeah that's what I was getting at in an earlier post. A couple people received orders from Smugmug (and me as far as I'm concerned), didn't know who it was from at first and even asked me who Smugmug was. I said it's the company that hosts my website (Smugmug doesn't make the prints; so again they just facilitate the process...). They said, "Oh, yeah."
I'm feel I'm paying for a service or even a value added partnership. Regardless of what you agreed to a year or two ago, changes can be made to improve the flow later.
You use Canon or Nikon cameras and lenses, Photoshop and Lightroom programs, to help you improve your images and workflow and you complain about it's shortcomings until a new version comes out addressing some of the features you wish it had.
You use Smugmug to help you with showing and selling. To imply that because we knew what we were getting into when we signed on and should just live with it and not request improvements is not realistic IMO. It's a growth process.
I don't see this as a deal breaker, but I see I may have to find a workaround. I think in the end I may have to handle the whole process from start to finish, having customers fill out sheets ahead of time to gather the customer information, prints and packages they want to order, having them pay me the money via cash or cc, then I can either drop ship from Smugmug to them, or ship to myself and hand deliver, or print from a local developing lab or from my own in-house printers. Because I am after all trying to be my own boss.
I'm blindly trusting them to send photos to my customers as it is; one of them is an hour and a half away in Jersey and I have to drive an hour & a half to make sure the prints are up to my standards, not just the customers.
Face it, you can look at myspace and see the level of crap that customers will think is good quality.
I had a friend take a 4 x 6 print of this picture of herself holding flowers her boyfriend had sent to our job:
She scanned and uploaded it to her myspace to show him because he was away in the military, and her friends commented how great it looked! Well, this is what I saw on her "Myspace"...
I flipped out on her and emailed her a much better copy. The point is I want to have the choice to follow up with my customers as I wish. Even Smugmug in the FAQ admits good and bad of EZprints.
That said, I've never had a problem with a Smugmug print up to 16 x 24 and I do trust them to handle that and other order issues well!
As a small and quick example, this should be a gallery option that I choose to give to my customers should I decide I want to send them a postcard reminder that I can do specific events (maternity, baby, 6 months, first birthday, baptism, siblings, senior, engagement, wedding) or use other marketing tools at my disposal to generate more business for myself and ultimately Smugmug.
THEN the customer can decide with the checkbox if they want me to get that info or not (address/phone). Smugmug will still get it regardless.
As another example, at my last dentist appointment I was told I should come back in 6 months. I asked her if I should make the appointment now. She said, "No. We will send you a reminder in the mail and call before 6 months is up." If I don't know the number when they call, they will leave a message and I can choose to call back or not.
If I win a contract to shoot another graduation in May and people buy, I want their info.
When my wife graduated from med school last year, the company that shot the event sent an email to the students and they had already filled out cards with their info ahead of time (before their pictures were taken). If someone else wanted to buy a picture, say a parent, they could order it from the site. Now the company has the parents’ info also. And there is a checkbox on the site asking if they want to receive future mailings, etc... from the company.
I'm not considering myself a pro photog yet, but I do have 14 years of business bulk sales, outbound cold and warm calling, marketing, promotion, customer service, quality assurance and account management experience.
Again, not a deal breaker, but rather a thorn in the side and it does affect my future plans.
Sorry for the long public thoughts on what many probably consider a small issue.
dak.smugmug.com
SM differentiates "Pro" accounts from other accounts AND charges a premium for those 'Pro' services -- less than most, but more than some others -- with the soundly implied promise that the premium tier offers a professional-grade service.
In my opinion these threads -- though they are perhaps overly emotional at times -- address issues that most professionals consider fundamental to business and thus are rightfully expected of a service that promotes itself as being "pro."
So, while most of us understand that SM's main focus is on the amateur/semi-pro users it was designed to service, as pro account holders we also feel a certain entitlement to those few core features one can reasonably expect of a 'pro' service.
SM fulfills many, if not most, of those expectations. And they do it very well. But identifiable branding, first-person quality control and pertinent customer contact channels remain fundamental shortcomings. And a true, business-to-business, enterprise must understand this.
Therefore, those of us who want to take SM seriously as a pro services provider are investing time, effort and money trying to have those few issues addressed in a serious manner.
SM may choose to grow this, newer, aspect of their business, or they will choose to redefine it and we all move on.
Either way, I suggest we all win.
OK
See Our Release Notes we now provide it
Thanks to all of you for waiting so patiently, and for sticking with us. We have the greatest customers on the planet.
Oh and by the way, you'll find this info for your customers, in your csv download spreadsheet, too - go check it out
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Something else worth mentioning, it appears you have enabled ALL customer information - even for prior orders!
Like bham, this was never a huge priority for me but it is nice to have if I ever need it.